Talk:Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain

Whether to delete this list
"turn into dab page ... this page just duplicates previous pages, and carries the misleading implication that anything called "Great Britain" has a legal existence)"


 * No it doesn't. It's now restored. Don't do this again. Benkenobi18 (talk) 02:10, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Ooh, again. Nice try. You are going to have to come up with a better reason to delete content. Benkenobi18 (talk) 08:23, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Three for three. Great vandalism here. Benkenobi18 (talk) 08:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No, a disambig page is an insult. Nominate this page for deletion instead. Benkenobi18 (talk) 11:58, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The content is not deleted, but resides more naturally at a lower level as I've tried to explain. David Underdown (talk) 12:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * No, it doesn't. There is absolutely no need to delete this list. It's for the GB category which you said you agreed should exist. You are just doing disambig as an end run around a deletion discussion. You know what I'm nominating this page for deletion just to protect myself. Benkenobi18 (talk) 12:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Deacon
This is ridiculous. Please discuss your reversions. Benkenobi18 (talk) 02:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)


 * How is this a POV fork? This is just another way of categorising the information. Do you consider List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Balkanic Europe a POV fork?.


 * Maybe this makes it more clear.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roman_Catholic_dioceses_in_Europe

As you see you have "Roman Catholic dioceses in Austria", etc, by the national level. The national level is "Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain". As you can see, there are lists for EVERY national level cat below the super cat Roman Catholic dioceses in Europe. Every single one.

There are two exceptions to this rule. The Category: Roman Catholic dioceses in Balkanic Europe, which has the same structure we see in the Great Britain one. It contains all the dioceses in the former Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia et al. The second exception is "Roman Catholic Dioceses in the Holy Roman Empire". The reason for this one, is this is a place for all the defunct dioceses and some that are still present, that reside in the HRE. It's a method of categorising the links between the prince-bishoprics and the dioceses.

List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain is no more POV then the List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Germany. If anything, the fact that Great Britain should not have a list is an insertation of POV. It is very POV to state that "Great Britain does not exist", etc. I am not tied to the name, I don't care if it's Roman Catholic dioceses in the United Kingdom, or Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain, but there needs to be a national list, period. Otherwise it is POV to treat the UK differently from any other nation. Benkenobi18 (talk) 02:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion moved from User talk:Anthony Appleyard

 * I moved this discussion to here from User talk:Anthony Appleyard because it had changed track from a (request to me) to general discussion. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:48, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm having some problem with two related disputes, both involving categorisation.
 * List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain, keeps getting reverted to a disambig without discussion.
 * Secondly, the Category of Roman Catholic Dioceses of Scotland, which is a subcat of the category Roman Catholic Dioceses of Great Britain keeps getting pulled out of it's supercat, in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Great Britain. The editor is the Deacon of Pnizepidem, and he refuses to discuss his edits on the talk pages, just keeps reverting. He's well known for editing Scottish and Irish pages, and doesn't believe that the concept of "Great Britain" exists.
 * I'm willing to abide by the decisions of any non-involved Admin, but I'd like these disputes resolved rather then the constant reverts without discussion from Deacon. I have attempted to discuss with him his changes, to no avail. Benkenobi18 (talk) 02:34, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The three categories mentioned in your third paragraph: are they Category:Roman Catholic dioceses in Scotland, Category:Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain, Roman Catholic Church in Great Britain, or what? If category A is a subcategory of category B, and category B is a subcategory of category C, then many prefer not to also make category A a direct subcategory of its "grandfather" category C.
 * Currently List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain is a content-fork (without maps) of List of Roman Catholic dioceses in England & Wales and List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Scotland (which have maps). Content-forking is undesirable, and I recommend going back to User:Deacon of Pndapetzim's version where List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain is a short disambig page. See Content forking.
 * About the reverts in page Category:Roman Catholic dioceses in Scotland between and , currently Template:Modern RC dioceses in Scotland is a redirect to Template:Roman Catholic dioceses in Scotland, and it makes no difference which is used.
 * Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not a content fork by any means. Why on earth is it an insertation of POV? Please see the Category:Roman Catholic dioceses in Balkanic Europe. It's just a way to categorise the catholic diocese articles. All of them are subdivided into the national level. If you want to rename the category "Roman Catholic Dioceses in the United Kingdom" go right ahead. I can't do that though. As for the maps, List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Scotland doesn't have a map, which means that List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain actually isn't a content fork. It's the same format as the other 300 or so lists. Benkenobi18 (talk) 02:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe this makes it more clear.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Roman_Catholic_dioceses_in_Europe
 * As you see you have "Roman Catholic dioceses in Austria", etc, by the national level. The national level is "Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain". As you can see, there are lists for EVERY national level cat below the super cat Roman Catholic dioceses in Europe. Every single one.
 * There are two exceptions to this rule. The Category: Roman Catholic dioceses in Balkanic Europe, which has the same structure we see in the Great Britain one. It contains all the dioceses in the former Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia et al. The second exception is "Roman Catholic Dioceses in the Holy Roman Empire". The reason for this one, is this is a place for all the defunct dioceses and some that are still present, that reside in the HRE. It's a method of categorising the links between the prince-bishoprics and the dioceses.
 * List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain is no more POV then the List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Germany. If anything, the fact that Great Britain should not have a list is an insertation of POV. It is very POV to state that "Great Britain does not exist", etc. I am not tied to the name, I don't care if it's Roman Catholic dioceses in the United Kingdom, or Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain, but there needs to be a national list, period. Otherwise it is POV to treat the UK differently from any other nation.
 * 02:00 to 02:31, 12 August 2008 User:Benkenobi18
 * See User talk:Deacon of Pndapetzim.
 * OK, I see, List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain contains links about the Episcopal Conference of Armagh, which are not in List of Roman Catholic dioceses in England & Wales and List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Scotland. Apart from that, they have all the same links. I have put in List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain links to the maps which are in List of Roman Catholic dioceses in England & Wales. It is not a matter of political bias but of Content forking, which see. Redirect List of Roman Catholic dioceses in England & Wales and List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Scotland to List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain? Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'm trying to tell you that the content wasn't forked. By your definition of a content fork, List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Europe is a content fork because it brings together all the other lists. The problem with this approach, (I don't like it at all), is because it makes a hash out of the dioceses. I've just spent two hours going over the counties in Northern Ireland to determine which dioceses straddle the line, and now they have two categories.


 * The other problem is that two dioceses now have to be taken out of the Roman Catholic dioceses of Ireland, and there has been no consensus to do this at all because the Irish editors much prefer to have all the dioceses on their Irish diocese list. In order to be consistant with this new split and category, they have to be taken off both the list and the template. We dealt with this problem six months ago, and we had no consensus to make any changes because all the other options were seen as inferior. Deacon has overrode the consensus by reverting the list. You can see the discussion on the Category:Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain.


 * Redirects are a no go because each episcopal territory has a list. In most cases, these match national boundaries, but this is one and perhaps one of the more notable exceptions where it does not.

Benkenobi18 (talk) 05:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

As I've repeatedly pointed out to Ben, Great Britain doesn't exist either as a political state or a national subdivision in the Roman Catholic Church. There is 1) Ireland 2) Scotland and 3) England and Wales in the Catholic Church and 1) Ireland and 2) United Kingdom in the UN world. Creating a further article was Great Britain on top of the Sc & Eng and Wales articles, and then hiding the most important ones is newly created super-cats is totally pointless. There doesn't need to be any problem except Ben insists on creating and enforcing articles which bring anarchic and misleading and pointless duplicate list articles. I've had long discussions with this user before, and before he wore me out with his tendentiousness and his slimy slanderings of me across wikipedia, I had created more than a dozen arrticles to accomodate his desire to name all diocese articles "Roman Catholic diocese of x". Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 14:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Move
to deal with the two dioceses that are neither in England, nor in Ireland. I've added the template to all dioceses in Northern Ireland, and removed the two from the Irish list. Benkenobi18 (talk) 06:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * One last step. You'll need to move "Category:Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain -> Roman Catholic dioceses in the United Kingdom". I've created an entirely new template.
 * Nope, sorry Anthony. I think we are at an impasse again. I really think the only workable solution is the status quo. The irish folks have already reverted, and they DO NOT WANT divisions on Ireland. I'm sorry. I tried. If there is a List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Ireland, then List of Roman Catholic dioceses in Great Britain needs to stay right there, as is. Deacon's solution just causes more havoc. Up until Deacon returned, you'll note the pages were entirely stable. Benkenobi18 (talk) 09:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * All this I've already said to you, Ben, but I'll repeat myself once more. There are list pages for Scotland and for England and Wales and for (the island of) Ireland, which corresponds to how the RCC is organized. This isn't my fault and is something you will just have to deal with. They were here on wiki moreover long before you showed up and decided you wanted to change things. There's no need to create arbitrary geographically-based duplicate lists either. I have no problem with a UN-based list supplementing it, though the point of having these is pretty lost on me. For categories, I have no problem using the UK (not GB) as a supplemental category on Northern Irish, English and Scottish Catholic matters, though not as a super category as this conflates two different systems without making it obvious that it does so. Dioceses and churches which are both in Catholic nation of Ireland and in the United Kingdom can have both categories, obviously, though not an square-inch of Ireland is in "Great Britain". Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 02:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Merge into List of Catholic Dioceses of Great Britain
Hello Benkenobi18, as there is another article, with more extensive content on the Roman Catholic Dioceses in Great Britain (List of Catholic dioceses in Great Britain), could we merge this one into that one? Cheers, Pjposullivan (talk) 15:55, 24 October 2017 (UTC)