Talk:Roman infantry tactics, strategy and battle formations

Copyvio?
This whole article appears to be a scan of a book, based on style and typos ("common and powerfula pf heavy infantry", etc.). I can't find an online source, but unless someone says otherwise soon, I'm going to blank the whole page to be safe. (Besides, the article title is unencyclopedic.) --A D Monroe III 00:41, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * This article was started as a result of The discussion here. I suggest you read it first. And if you dislike this article, then why don't you help by editing it, so it will be more encyclopedic. The style and typos are proof that it is anything but a copy vio. The original author is Italian, his English is not as adept as ours'. But then again, how is your Italian? Or Latin for that matter...mine is highly wanting. I've agreed to help him with it. You are welcome to help too. But not delete. --R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 01:13, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hey Ghost, don't get so upset! I am sure he did not mean any harm...have a look at : assume good faith --Msoos 08:13, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Hey D Monroe instead of doing critics on my poor english try to write in italian respecting the consecutio temporum rules that i wrote on wikipedia, then I ll be the one who laughs, you say that the article is a scan of book? I don't think so, those are mine conclusion based on reading Vegetius a roman military historician directly in latin, the source is, DE RE MILITARI, in the hope you have some grasps with vegetian iconcinnitas, and remeber: DOCET NON SAPIENTEM SED HUMILEM Read it first before make any useless comments, instead clean it up.... And thank you R.D.H for your words Philx 11:13, 18 October 2005 (UTC) Philx Philx 11:13, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Geeze, relax, okay? When an anon with no other logged contribution pastes a whole un-wiki, unreferenced article at once without any comment, it's suspicious.  You fault me for not following the discussion or noting the references, but no links were given.  The text doesn't have English grammar errors, but random spelling errors like those of mis-scans.


 * Plus, you ask for help yet imply only thoses who know Latin worthy of helping. The article needs a lot of cleanup, and the title is still unencyclopedic.  The point is to discuss things before acting, or overreacting.  I won't blank the article, or even edit it for now, but I will ask others to look at it.  "If you don't want your writing to be edited and redistributed by others, please don't submit it."  It's the Wikipedia way.  --A D Monroe III 14:03, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Ok, sorry, i didn't mean no offense, I was a bit rude, well if you mean that I haven't any contributions, look at : Italian grammar and read the tense realtionship in the subordinate sentences or check latin grammar or greek grammar, in both of them I ve posted some add on expanding the grammar side,check Latin sentence rules or Ancient greek subordination rules and verbs meaning, sorry if do not add link to them but I simply don't know how, so again sorry for my tone and, if the title is unencyclopedic,why you don't suggest a new one? And last but not least, I want that my article is edited and expanded, I asked for it, it isn't true that only people who knows latin can help,anyone with some grasp of military tactics can help, this is my first true article and will be discouraging deleting it for me. Philx 19:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC) Philx Philx 19:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * First, thank you Monroe, for not blanking this article outright but discussing it with us here first. Second, apologies for our hostility. My friend, Phil is new and I've had my share of run ins with deletionists and the self-appointed copy-vio police. Consequently we took your statement as a threat. The title is a temporary one, since this is clearly a work in progress. You are more than welcome, as we have said, to suggest another or contribute in any way you wish. And no, Latin is not a requirement :>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 01:20, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I'm okay with this line of development.  --A D Monroe III 22:03, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Shield carried as a bag
The roman carried the shield in an unsual way,while the greek and the medieval infantry used the shield with the arm inserted in it's hook in a orizontal way,wheter the romans inserted the arm in the hook of the shiled like they were carrying a bag,so the arm was perpendicular to the hhok.i hope someone understands what i ve said and helps to translate it in english.... Thanks a lot Philx 12:20, 19 October 2005 (UTC) Philx Philx 12:20, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Phil! Sorry I've not replied to you sooner. Yes, I'm having some trouble, along with some small amusement, understanding exactly what you mean by that. Did they carry their shields in bags? Or put bags on their arms to keep them from sliding off? I know the scutums had two handles, or hooks as you say, inside. The legionary would usually put his left forearm through the first one and hold the second with his hand. Sorry, I'm usually able to understand most of what you say pretty well. But this sentence I just don't get. I blame my own daftness more than your command of English.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 09:51, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi friend, I'm pleased that our project is going on pretty well,thanks to all that are helping us.The shield is a problem, they "wore" the shield as a bag,saying that i mean that they put their forearms on the shield as they had to carry a bag,the forearms was so perpendicuòar to the body, not that they carried "scutum" in a bag, i wish had a photograph, or perhaps i can post Vegetious's sentence in latin, I hope that you will now understand and translate it in comprensive english, I'm very sorry of that, wish had chosen linguistic college more than engineer, Thanks a lot for your help, Philx 12:34, 22 October 2005 (UTC) Philx Philx 12:34, 22 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm glad to help out, my friend! Yes, our project is going quite well. I've now finished with the main article and can get to the last section I moved over from the legio where you originally started. I'll carefully remove the parts in it we have already covered so it won't repeat itself too much. I still don't fully get the shield, bag thing. But I do have a better idea of what you are trying to say now. When I read Vegitus, it was an English translation, not original Latin and nearly 20 years ago besides. Maybe I can find an online translation and we can finally put this confusion in a bag :> As for linguistic versus engineering colleges, from the standpoint of finding a good paying job, you made a more practical choice. This is perhaps, a quality you inheirted from your Roman ancestors who were very practical and also great engineers. Ciao Amico--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 13:40, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi friend, i ve chosen to be engineer for ,as you say, a more pratical question,and more english, for the pay!:) for the bag thing shield i can post some photos, that can be explicative, and what about if i post more tactics, that are only used in the late empire times, because Vegetius is a late latin writer, this tactics tells about comitanenes and limitanei and the various scholae, and i intended to post some legion's mottos, what you say? Philx 16:02, 24 October 2005 (UTC) Philx Philx 16:02, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi again Phil! Sorry, my friend, I've neglected our work for so long. I've pretty much completed editing the article now. Must boast It is looking good! We seem to make an effective team, amico. We now have far more information, and detailed, quality info at that, than could have been included in the Legio article, which is already large. The scary part is, the Legio still feels incomplete somehow. You make a very good point about Vegetius dealing largely with the late empire (don't forget the pseudo-comitatenses and palatinae :). I wrote a small section dealing briefly with the late empire for the article on Diocletian. I think posting some legion mottos is a great idea! Do you know User:Panairjdde? He also lives in Rome and has done a lot of fine work here on the legions. The two of you would have lots to discuss:> Ciao for now--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 05:17, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * hi friend,this project is almost completed, thanks to you and to all, i will add some legion's mottos, and the life of the roman soldier described by tacitus, I don't konow Panairjdde, i ll try to contact him and dicuss abot the roman infantry, thanks again a lot. Philx 14:09, 6 November 2005 (UTC) Philx Philx 14:09, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Reworking needed
The article needs reformatting and spell checking. Otherwise good, although there is not enough information about battle formations. –Reply to David Latapie 15:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

well me and some others friends are trying to do so,we have to change the title and check the spelling,more info on battles tactics will be added as soon as possible, thank you for your hints Philx 18:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC) Philx Philx 18:11, 19 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi David! If you would wish to contribute more information on battle formations, please feel free. This is an open project, so BE BOLD :>--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 13:42, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

Mottos
What reference is used for the mottos section? There is some discussion of the phrase "Strength and Honor" at this page: http://www.murphsplace.com/crowe/latin.html. One comment on the page seems to think "Vis et honor" is not the most natural translation of the concept. Was "Vis et Honor" really a motto of some Roman Legions, or just a translation of a phrase in the movie Gladiator? --64.81.81.225 01:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The same page http://www.murphsplace.com/crowe/latin.html seems to indicate that "Strength and Honor" (Latin: Veritate et Virtute) is the motto for the Sydney Boys High School, which Russell Crowe went to, and was his idea to use in the movie, not because it was an actual Legion's motto. Did the Roman Legions even have mottos, other than SPQR? Although "Vis et Honor" sounds great, please let's not fall into the common trap of having movies become historical fact. Without a verifiable source (pref. contemporary), we should remove this section. --64.81.81.225 09:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Veritate et Virtute means Truth and Virtue. Not Strength and Honor, which was not a motto of any particular legion, but a battle cry generals would use to rouse their legionaries before going into combat. It was more likely SHOUTED rather than softly spoken as by Crowe's Maximus Decimus Meridius. They had no boom microphones back then afterall:> I have removed the mottos section in view of your criticisms. But Vis et Honor does have an historical basis. So Crowe and Ridley Scott did not completely make it up.

The mottos are found in vegetious de re militari --Philx 21:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC) In fact vegetious said that vis et honor were often said by generals to their troops, so i don't know if their are real mottos.Probalby if i can't finid nothing about these mottos on titus livius and tacitus i'll remove them thanks for your opinion. In fact those aren't said by vegetious to be mottos but words of encoraugement said by some generals.--Philx 21:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * There is an online version of De Re Militari here: http://www.pvv.ntnu.no/~madsb/home/war/vegetius . I can't seem to find the Latin text online, which would help to see what the original Latin of the phrases was. Which Book and Section does Vegetius talk about what the generals said to the troops? In Book III, there is a section "General Maxims", however these probably were what Vegetius himself felt, and not the official mottos of the Legions themselves. Thanks for looking into this. --64.81.81.225 21:53, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * We might also consider, rather than having a motto section, we could have a "Maxims" section that lists some of the Maxims and references De Re Militari, or link to De Re Militari and add the maxims there (some of the ones found in Book III, "General Maxims"). We could do the same for maxims found in other sources. --64.81.81.225 22:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes in the latin text wich i've got the sentences are fond in the third book, i think you re right, perhaps saying generals maxims is more accurate historically than saying mottos, but the problemi is that we can't know if these were really spoken by generals or only in some occasion by a single general, in fact i'm searching over Tacitus and Titus Livius to see if these are reported--Philx 02:25, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I've checked your link about the english transaltion of vegetious de re militari and i might be wrong but it seems missing of some passes, besides this, i think we should remove some, because i've checked on tacitus and livius and none of the vegetious mentioned mottos are found. --Philx 10:52, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Great effort guys!
Hi!

Just wanted to say, that the article has evolved a lot - I remember at the beginning it having a notice on top that it's not encyclopaedic :) [look at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Roman_infantry_tactics%2C_strategy_and_battle_formations&oldid=25755996 for some fun!] Only thing that is now bothering me, is that there seem to be too many images. At the begginning there were none, now there seem to be too many. There are also some, that are not exactly the best (e.g. the soldier in the glass - the idea is good, but the picture itself is not so well done). So I say, remove some images, maybe it will look better! Other than that, go guys, go! :)

Msoos 01:22, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Couldn't disagree more. There are not too many images; if anything, there still aren't enough images. The problem is not that there's an excess, it's that the ones we have are poorly-organized, with many images bunched up in a single part of the article, leaving many of the other parts of the article barren of images. Organization is what's needed here, more than deletion. Though even then I don't see it as a big issue; I've seen thousands of articles that are much worse-off image-wise than this one (including quite a few Featured Articles). I'll just have to echo the other part of the sentiment: keep up the good work! -Silence 01:50, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * However, I do agree that we could find better images to replace a few of the ones we currently have. We can't rely entirely on modern stuff like reenactment photos, wax models, and reconstructions. The number of images is certainly far from overwhelming, though. But anyway, I'm done with this article; not going to waste any more time editing here if everything I do is just going to be blindly reverted. Toodles. -Silence 20:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * One last thing before I go: Am I crazy, or would this article fit perfectly well simply under the name Roman infantry? The current title's remarkably complex and unintuitive&mdash;unnecessarily so? -Silence 20:34, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
 * bout the title, it is the sum of all that is written here, because we talk about all aspects of roman infantry --Philx 22:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
 * If you talk about all aspects of the Roman infantry, then why on earth wouldn't you simply name the article "Roman infantry"? Christianity discusses "all aspects of Christianity", but that doesn't mean that the article should be titled "Christian beliefs, followers, history, practices, and symbols", even though that summarizes all the specific aspects of Christianity that are to be discussed; because a much more effective, brief, and noncounterintuitive title is simply "Christianity". The exact same principle applies to this page: it's ridiculous to mention all that in the article's title whne simply "Roman infantry" would do just as well, if not infinitely better. Mention all that (tactics, strategy, battle formations, etc.) in the intro instead, and leave the title for only the very briefest summary of the article's topic possible: "Roman infantry". -Silence 08:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the compliments and suggestions. The images I added were not frivillous, nor placed without regard to their order. I tried put them so they would illustrate the topics as they were discussed in the text. As for the title, Phil and I have discussed this and since we have already written a "sequel" article, of sorts on Byzantine battle tactics, perhaps Roman Battle Tactics would be more concise and encyclopedic? Again, thanks for your encouragement and ideas.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 08:51, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Why not just "Roman infantry tactics", then? Byzantine battle tactics is a truly awful name, and would be better as "Byzantine military tactics" or similar, surely, or at least "Byzantine combat tactics".
 * In any case, you still have not restored my edits, even though my changes to your image placement are, if anything, even less arbitrary, disordered and frivollous than your own original placements; you merely assume that I have no regard for where the images should go in relation to the text, when that is one of many concerns that I have addressed as best can currently be done. I payed very careful attention to all of the article's text, to the image balance, to the layout, how the images interact with each other; I spent hours editing not only the page style and formatting, but also the images to places in the article where they'd look much more professional and balanced, would let the text breathe and flow vastly better, and would still be topical and relevant to their appropriate locations without all being bunched in such an atrocious manner that they seem like a schoolchild's PowerPoint presentation, with no regard for aesthetics or the dynamics of the human eye... and in response you reverted the entire edit without so much as a word on the Talk page. And now I've waited over a week for, finally, a response. I've tried to be patient, though I'm not as patient of a person as I wish, but I'm still close to being quite deeply offended; please restore my edit so this article can continue to move forward, and so we can discuss which aspects of the image moves and resizes, and other major and vital layout, wording, and style changes that I was in the middle of initiating, you feel are inappropriate or poorly-done, and make any necessary compromises, selective reversions, or other changes that are necessary. As the Romans might say it: Sis sic sit. -Silence 09:09, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * First, you need to calm down and get out of "Attack" mode. There is no need to be defensive or offensive here, especially where no offense was originally intended. Secondly, Phil and I did not ask for your help on this article, you volunteered it. We have put a lot of work into this article as well...a fact which you seem to fail to appreciate. I'm sorry if I was slow to reply and explain my reasons. I don't see how, except in your own opinion, your layout of the images is superior to mine. Why, for instance...do you have the cornicen ("horn-blower") on Trajan's column, at the start first section instead of further down where cornicifers are actually discussed? Sorry, I see no logic to your layout other than it looks nicer err I mean more "Professional" to you. Apart from your stylisic layout changes, the only other major edits you made were some wording changes to the heading titles. There, I like some of your changes and might just adapt them later. But we can come back to that later after we have finished writing the main text of the article. Currently Phil is combing non-english sources working on a section about the late empire and the decline and fall of the legions. Do you know anything more about that era? This is where we could really use your help. For instance, do you know exactly what Auxilia Paltinae were? Because we don't. We had ideas, but nothing we are confident enough to put in the writing:) If you can help us with matters such as this then you can make all the cosmetic changes you like. I'm not trying to insult or belittle you (unlike some of your above remarks). I would like to have you as part of our little Contubernium here. But if you are just going to insult our efforts while exhaulting your own, then it is perhaps best for you to move on while we move forward. Please keep in mind too, that English is not Phil's native language.  He is Italian, but he knoews enough Enlish and I know enough Latin and Italian and we both know enough about Roman military history to work together as an effective team. He came up with the title back when he was a Wiki Newbie. So he has that going against him as well. I showed him a little good faith and the result was a friendship and two very passable if not yet feature qualty articles, where none existed before. Again, I welcome your help if you show you can work with us and have something of substance to contribute. But insulting our work, trying to impose your own  stylisic choices and throwing temper tantrums when we disagree with you edits is not getting off to a very promising start. Sapere aude or Póg Mo Thóin--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 11:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Επι ταξεως ; De ordine articulo
thanks Ghost, i agree with you about the photos and article order,
 * Primum do not slander anyone Silence, or critici what is done.
 * Secundum the disposition you made wasn't, in my opinion is better what there was previously.
 *  Tertium explain why, the disposition you made is more professional. Explain it and we may revert the things up, simply because i do not see the advantages of that disposition,If you would so kind to talk about it. Do you know besides all this, something about auxiliae palatinae? Thank you for any of you reply sir . Si  veritatem audire non vis nemo tibi dicere potestBTW Sis sic sit? --Philx 12:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Some remarks
I changed some of the Latin here. "Agmen" is neutral, so "agminem" must be wrong. Also, "De oppido expugnando" doesn't sound like a battle tactic, but rather more like a chapter title ("How to capture a fortified town"). The wording should be changed.--Iblardi 16:41, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Dubious illustrations
I understand the feelings of reenactors, but I just hate these pictures. For me it's like placing computer game screenshots in a serious history book.

Asking about individual soldiers rotating the front line
From the tria section of the wikipedia article on "Rome the TV-series":

"Battle scenes in Rome depict authentic Roman infantry fighting techniques including the tightly-packed "Roman Wall" of shields, gladius thrusting techniques above and below the "shield wall", and the rotation of troops on the front lines every 30–45 seconds. "

The rotation part makes perfect sense. Having a soldier in the first line fight until he dies and his fellows do almost nothing until it is their turn in the first line seems at best to be a waste of human life. Yet, this is how ancient fighting is generally perceived. Taking turn makes much more sense. Close combat will exhaust you quickly and no matter how skilled you are, when you are exhausted you rapidly become much slower. If you are not rotated away by when, you are pretty much dead meat. I read a piece of historical fiction where the legion was described as fighting in this way, but when the author, Vibeke Olsson, kindly referred me to the original source, Livius, it seemed to talk more about the entire centurias rotating from hastati, to princeps, to triarii. Is there anyone who can find us an ancient source that claims indivídual roman soldiers actually took turns being in the front row the way it is depicted in the TV-series Rome? Is there someone who knows of a scholars' debate on the subject? Some SCA try-outs to see if it actually works? Please write and tell me at dag@mensa.se so I can present this source/debate/whatever in wikipedia (or you could write it yourself in the article about Rome the TV series, the article on Roman infantry tactics or the article on Roman Legion).

Sensemaker


 * Good question, Sensemaker. However reading anciente texts like the one cited in the article, I found nothing about the rotating men of the centuries, but found something about the cohorts that rotated in order to provide support and fresh men to the battle line.

However if you take a closer look to your question, this, even  making good point ,why in fact the romans would lose good soldier for nothing, it is bit strange for how they fought the battle, turning men in the centuriae would make a gap in the roman formation leding to the breaking of the centuria herself, because in a tight close combat fight retirirng men from the front to substitute them would, first require too much time, and second if they tourn back they would be eventually killed by the pressing enemy. --Philx 14:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll check Livius to see if I remembered correctly. I have discussed this with friends and often heard the argument that switching individual soldiers causes a disruption in the line. Well, when a man is tired in close combat it is only a matter of time before he dies (and perhaps a matter of how many opponents he can bring down before). So the alternative is to let the man die and the guy behind him is supposed to takes a step forward over his fallen camrade to take his place. Does that cause less of a disruption? (That question was not rhetorical I really don't know.) If it does indeed cause less disruption, is this advantage really worth losing fairly expensive soldiers for? (Once again, I really don't know?) Would not the "first line fights to death" mean that a deployment to the first line would be certain death while the guys further behind would be relatively safe? Wouldn't such an uneven distribution of risk wreak havoc on group loyalty? Taking turns on the other hand would clearly create a sense of shared loyalty. The way the author Vibeke Olsson described it, a column was the guys that shared a tent. So the guys you are taking turns with are the guys you share a tent with. I image that would create a very strong sense of loyalty.


 * Sensemaker


 * It is indeed true that contubernium men's shared same postions on the battle line, also true that this helped to make cohesion in a group but, would this be really factible in the middle of the fray? Immagine, 2 imperia cohorts are facing the alemannii, the barbars are pushing forth the roman lines, how will be possible to interchange soldier? Wouldn't they eventually be killed?  Yes would be demoralizing konwing that the 1st line will die surely,

would be great knowing for a soldier knowing that his comrades will defend him exchanging postition, but they fought in close formation, deep ranks, how they could be free to move? And with order? Maybe a shifting of entire ranks, meaning that if the 1st is to be slayed the second would charge in order to alleviate the pressure or to permitt to reorganize the 1st rank.--Philx 18:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No I really don't know how it would be done. One possibility is that they pass one another by turning sideways. A man turned sideways is less than half as broad as a man facing you. Two people turning sideways can pass one another. I've done this in crowded places many times -though of course I was no more than ordinary civilian clothing and perhaps two bags of groceries. Granted, it probably won't be easy during close combat but remember that the alternative is that the guy in the front just dies and there is a similar disruption in the line when he is replaced anyway. A more exotic version is that the guys in the front lie down and roll or crawl back aided by their camrades. If you can step over a guy because he is dead and has fallen down with little disruption to the line, it should be just as easy to step over him because he has lain down of his own free will. The turning sideways version seems more reasonable though.


 * Sensemaker


 * Yes, good point but, in a full battle dress, it would require too much time and, the soldier that has to turn sideaway would be uselless in a front line, causing a lossing of ground by the pushing enemy. --Philx 18:35, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is an excellent write-up from a US Army officer on the subject - the space alloted to each legionaire seems to make retirement by an exhausted fron-tline fighter and his replacement by a man in the rear feasible. Unlike the tightly packed phalanx, each Roman infantryman had several square meters to work with. .. Quote:

"After the signal to advance had been given by the bugles (signa inferre), the first line of the three moved forward with even step (certo gradu) until five or six hundred feet from the enemy. Then the bugles blew the signal to attack. The men advanced at double time (concursu), the first two ranks with javelins poised in their right hands (pilis infestis). When within range, these two ranks delivered their deadly volley. The next three ranks hurled their javelins over the heads of those in front. Then as the enemy was met, there followed a series of hand-to-hand individual conflicts, sword duels, repeated again and again since whenever a front-rank man fell, he was pulled back and the man behind replaced him. Men exhausted or slightly wounded would retire and be relieved by fresh men. The five rear ranks then took the place of these fallen or exhausted men, or perhaps increased the number of the attacking troops.

When the first line as a whole had done its best and become weakened and exhausted by losses, it gave way to the relief of fresh men from the second line who, passing through it gradually, pressed forward one by one, or in single file, and worked their way into the fight in the same way. Meanwhile the tired men of the original first line, when sufficiently rested, reformed and re-entered the fight. This continued until all men of the first and second lines had been engaged. This does not presuppose an actual withdrawal of the first line, but rather a merging, a blending or a coalescing of both lines.

Thus the enemy was given no rest and was continually opposed by fresh troops until, exhausted and demoralized, he yielded to repeated attacks. Sometimes the onset of the first ranks was suf1icient to put the enemy to flight. For this reason the, best marksmen with the pila and the best swordsmen were put in the forward positions. The standard-bearers were not in the front ranks, but were kept behind the good men of at least the first two ranks who were perhaps called "antesignani"."

See: "Military Affairs of Rome, by Lt. Col. S.G. Brady, 1947" Enriquecardova 00:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Renaming
What about a shorter name somebody will eventually find on wiki?

"Roman landwarfare" for example? Wandalstouring 15:01, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In effect this would be more encyclopedic, and more esay to search any other suggestions? --Philx 19:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * "Roman military tactics" The current article does not concern tactics. It would be better off as "Roman military equipment". Wandalstouring 20:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Or how about Roman military system?--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 22:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that Roman military system woukld be correct, what do you think guys? --Philx 11:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds good, but perhaps you should mention the integration of naval and landwarfare. naval supply was important for the large numbers of troops in enemy territory (like in Germany, Romain ships on the River Elbe during the conquest), so it is part of the system. Wandalstouring 22:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It is a convention in the US and UK to refer to land based warfare as Military and distinguish it from Naval/sea-based. There is already and extensive article on the Roman Navy. Certainly we should make mention of it where appropriate and link to it.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 00:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Typical Early Republican battle formation
The Romans used a number of rules when making a formation, based on the 3 main troop types. The Hastati formed the first line of defence (or attack), behind them where the principes. In battle, the principes were meant to counter attack if the hastati happened to fail in the initial engagement. Originally, the principes were organized like the hastati, in centuries of 60 under a Centurion. However, by the late Republican era, they contained 80 men like the triarii. Two centuries comprised a maniple and 10 maniples were used in battle line formation. And finally there were the Triarrii, serving as a final barrier behind which the hastati and principes could rest, regroup or perform a counter attack.



Testudo formation


In Ancient Roman warfare, the testudo or tortoise formation was a formation utilized commonly by the Roman legions during battles, particularly sieges. (Testudo is the Latin word for "tortoise".) In the testudo, the men would close up all gaps between each other and grab their shields at the sides (rather than by the grip behind the umbo). The first row of men, possibly excluding the men on the flanks, would place their shields in front of them, from about their shins to the middle of their faces, so as to cover the formation's front. Everybody in the middle would place their shields over their head to protect from above, balancing the shields on their helmets and overlapping them. If necessary, the legionaries on the sides and rear of the formation could stand sideways or backwards with shields held as the front row's, so as to protect the formation's sides and rear, but the shape of the shields would mean that these soldiers would only be afforded incomplete protection.

When used correctly, the testudo was an excellent shield against missile troops, and the legions could move with little fear of being slaughtered by arrow fire and javelins. The primary problem with the formation was that it was so tight that the soldiers had great difficulty fighting in hand-to-hand combat&mdash;the Battle of Carrhae showed testudo's limitations, as the Parthians shot the Romans with horse archers if they stayed in regular formation, and charged with cataphracts if they tried to form a testudo. Other problems were that the front rank's faces and legs were still exposed; the formation couldn't move very quickly; and more powerful weapons (such as Eastern composite bows) could puncture the scutum and pin the soldiers' hands to their shields under prolonged fire, as occurred at Carrhae.


 * Errr I believe we've already convered all this. I have no qualms with using the screenshots, however, if the Apparatchiks would allow it.--R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine) 00:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Prior coverage is a problem. It would be nice though if any missing details on the Testudo could be worked in, because it is a straight-up infantry method. The article could use a bit more on the tactical battle end, as some commenters have said, although good work has been done on structure, formations and maneuvers.