Talk:Romeo and Juliet/Archive 4

Age of the characters & judicial influence
Shouldn't some note be made of the age of the characters, and how this is today used as an example of the acceptability of teenage sex? (as a prominent cultural reminder of the fact that adulthood used to begin much younger) A number of states and provinces around the world have existing "Romeo and Juliet" laws or clauses. (see: Age_of_consent_reform) Esn (talk) 08:49, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you point us to some references so we can add it in? Wrad (talk) 17:54, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * We used to have a section describing cultural influences like this, but I guess it was taken out during FAC? We'd need to discuss bringing that back in if we want to add this. Wrad (talk) 17:57, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Such a section is just inviting pop culture trivia; and as far as I can tell the above referenced article does not provide a citation for the relevant claim. --Xover (talk) 22:10, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You can easily find citations just by doing a quick google search. Here are some random ones that I found:    [ http://askville.amazon.com/Romeo-Juliet-law-Indiana-14-year-olds-sex-18-year-spread/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2907535 ] Esn (talk) 00:25, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Is this just an incidental name, or do judges actually think in their minds "this is okay behavior because it is in Romeo and Juliet"? I think it is the latter. I don't think the connection is anything more than incidental. Wrad (talk) 00:49, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What exactly do you mean by "incidental"? Esn (talk) 01:14, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It is connected in name only. Romeo and Juliet did not persuade the public that teenage sex was ok. Other things did. Wrad (talk) 01:16, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * That is also an assertion which you would need sources to prove. I don't really see how something can be connected "in name only"; names aren't given lightly, despite what that guy who recently named his son "Adolf Hitler" might say. The fact that the laws were named directly after the play suggests that there is something in the play that captures the spirit of the laws. At the very least, it should be mentioned in a "See also" section that there are laws in a number of US states (and I think some in Canadian provinces, and maybe other countries) that are called "Romeo and Juliet laws". Esn (talk) 01:32, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've put a reference to the Romeo and Juliet laws in the disambiguation page for Romeo and Juliet. You can see and edit the mention here: Romeo and Juliet (disambiguation). --Malkinann (talk) 02:04, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you'd have to prove that the connection is more than just incidental if you wanted it in this article. You can't add something to the Green article just because it's green, it has to add something to our understanding of what green is and means. I'm not sure that the fact that the laws are named after the play means anything more than that someone noticed in passing the connection to teenage love. Do your sources indicate otherwise? If not, it shouldn't be added. The burden of proof is on you, my friend. There's no need for me to prove that it isn't more than superficially connected unless you can show us something that says it is. Wrad (talk) 02:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks Malkinann, that works. Esn (talk) 03:00, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Fine with me. Wrad (talk) 03:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

I still think that maybe the age of the characters should be mentioned somewhere in the article though; it's a basic piece of information, after all. Esn (talk) 03:01, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * From the plot section: Count Paris talks to Lord Capulet about marrying his daughter, but Capulet is wary of the request because Juliet is still only thirteen... Wrad (talk) 03:42, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * And the 20th century theatre section: Throughout the century, audiences, influenced by the cinema, became less willing to accept actors distinctly older than the teenage characters they were playing... Wrad (talk) 03:43, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, thanks for pointing that out. I didn't see those before. Esn (talk) 20:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

The caption at the top's letters overlapPr1nce0fDarkn3ss (talk) 00:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Once Again About R&J and "Teenage Sex"
Re the above discussion, don't forget that Romeo and Juliet (in the play) don't sleep together until they're married. That rather complicates any comparison of the play to modern "teenage sex." It seems to me that the issue of teenage suicide is more relevant here. Tom129.93.17.153 (talk) 02:32, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

"Afterlife"?
That is one silly title. Can't somebody come up with a better one? Clarityfiend (talk) 00:45, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I defend it here, FWIW. AndyJones (talk) 19:25, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Odd statement in article
Why does this article say R&J is one of Shakespeare's most popular plays "along with Hamlet"? Midsummer Night's Dream, for example, is actually produced more often than Hamlet. Why not just say R&J is "one of Shakespeare's most popular plays", period? Tom129.93.17.153 (talk) 02:24, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I guess it's because almost anyone around the world (even people who don't know nothing about Shakespeare) knows that Romeo and Juliet is a 'love story', and that Hamlet is a 'story about a sad prince'. I'll hardly say the same about MN's Dream. --Yuma (talk) 09:47, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Tom, What is your source for the MND thing? I don't think you're right, and the statement in the article is sourced to Levenson (2000: 69–70). AndyJones (talk) 21:37, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll tell you one thing: Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet are the two most popular Shakespeare play articles on wikipedia both in terms of visitors and in terms of editors, and they have been for quite awhile. Wrad (talk) 21:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This article contains enough opinion presented as fact I doubt one more will make any difference. A metric for popularity is almost impossible to define - wiki editting/visitors is about as weak as one could get - but what can you do ?
 * Yeah, ummm... that's why we didn't source it to wiki statistics. Chill out. If you think other stuff is opinion presented as fact, point it out. Wrad (talk) 15:15, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Rosaline a Capulet?
She's Lord Capulet's niece, isn't she? Shouldn't she go under the Capulets then? Kroova (talk) 21:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

New Moon
New Moon, the second book in the Twilight series, is loosely based on Romeo and Juliet. I have a source, but first I'd like to know it it's worth mentioning in the article. 74.33.174.133 (talk) 23:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's important for the New Moon article, but less important here. I'd tend to add it to the New Moon article, but not to the Romeo and Juliet article.  --Malkinann (talk) 05:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, I think that the "afterlife" section is more intended for direct adaptations rather than mere inspirations (in recent cases Twilight and Taylor Swift's "Love Story") Andrewlp1991 (talk) 01:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

WHERE?
Where was the play taken place in England?
 * The play takes place in Verona, Italy. Wrad (talk) 21:00, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * If you read the article, it is thought to have been first performed in London, England, between 1591 and 1595 by The Lord Chamberlain's Men. Follow that link to find out which theatres they played at during those years. --GuillaumeTell 01:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi im doing romeo and juliet at school any help —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.128.164.108 (talk) 21:12, 15 February 2010 (UTC) gaasdgaeraergthjtst —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.52.31.48 (talk) 14:57, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

romeo and juliet
why did the events happen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.32.223.235 (talk) 05:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Lurcio, 18 April 2010
Can someone with greater experience make a couple of changes to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeo_and_Juliet for me, or let me know why they aren't suitable. Thanks.

Change 1 - Add a reference to modern media to the final paragraph in the intro section.
i.e.

at the start ...

from Romeo and Juliet has been adapted numerous times for stage, film, musical and opera.

to Romeo and Juliet has been adapted numerous times for stage, film, musical, opera and modern social media.

and/or at the end ...

from In the 20th century ... 1996's MTV-inspired Romeo + Juliet. the romeo and juliet had died at the end of the long story

to In the 20th century ... 1996's MTV-inspired Romeo + Juliet. In the 21st century an interactive production 'Such Tweet Sorrow' , by Mudlark and the Royal Shakespeare Company, was performed in 2010 on the Twitter  social media site.

Change 2 - Add new section after 7.7 Screen
21st-century media

The rise in popularity of the internet and other communication technologies has seen Romeo and Juliet productions appear in social media sites such as the 2010 interactive production 'Such Tweet Sorrow' 

Produced by Mudlark and created in collaboration with the Royal Shakespeare Company and 4iP , Such Tweet Sorrow is/was an experiment in bringing global theatre to life. Performed by six professional actors over a five week period using Twitter  accounts, to interact with each other and their followers/audience live and in real-time. The performers also make use of other media sites such as YouTube for pictures and video.

Lawrence or Laurence
I don't care, but it should be the same throughout. Any preferences, before I get on with it? --Old Moonraker (talk) 09:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * My Complete Works has Laurence, and so has the List of Shakespearean characters (L–Z), although that redirects to Friar Lawrence. I'd go for Laurence.--GuillaumeTell 10:59, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Mine (Bate and Craig) too, but as the link goes to Lawrence... --Old Moonraker (talk) 11:12, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the article was created in 2006 (as Friar lawrence) by an editor who made no more contributions of any description to Wikipedia, at least not under the same username, and, as you'd expect, did not cite a Reliable Source. I assume that Andy Jones, who created the List, made the redirect because either he didn't know which was correct or he had more important things to do than move pages.  There must be a facsimile of one or more of the quartos on the Internet somewhere (or maybe someone can see what the Arden edition and others say), but if 3 Complete Works (mine is C. J Sisson's) say Laurence then I don't see why we shouldn't change all Lawrences to Laurence and move the FL page too.  Just my three ha'p'orth. --GuillaumeTell</i> 16:39, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * And furthermore, there are 10 instances of Friar Laurence in the text and footnotes of the article, and the only instance of Friar Lawrence is the link to the article of that name. Open-and-shut case, IMNSHO!  --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 16:51, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems conclusive; I'll fix it shortly. Sad that I've just done this on Characters in Romeo and Juliet (fifty-fifty there), but went the other way, for "Lawrence". 'Spose I need to do that too. --Old Moonraker (talk) 17:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Fixed this one; now back to Characters in Romeo and Juliet. --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

This text was of poor quality, and later editions corrected it, bringing it more in line with Shakespeare's original.
What do we know about Shakespeare's original? Are we presuming the First Folio was based on an 'original'? (fotoguzzi)69.64.235.42 (talk) 21:39, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * More of an explanation, with references, in the "Date and text" section, lower down.--Old Moonraker (talk) 21:54, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, you know, in the 1600s people were still learning how to read. That isn't to say that people were illiterate. Take Shakespeare dad, he made gloves. He didn't need to know how to read letters, he made gloves, he read hands. Utility was just more important in this aspect, in the 'old world'. Anyway, what I am trying to get across is the idea that Shakespeare 'original' was based on a folklore & prior to Romeo & Juliet was spread by word of mouth. Book-lore [or: the written word] didn't become widely popular until a little after Shakespeare...173.218.85.222 (talk) 02:48, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

National Museum of the American Indian
A discussion of the relevance of the above institution is referenced in "Secondary sources": Lujan, James (2005). "A Museum of the Indian, Not for the Indian". Anybody know why? --Old Moonraker (talk) 14:08, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Found it: apologies to anyone still awake. --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:24, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

An Unpopular Parallel
Romeo & Juliet, how about... Rome & Jerusalem Christianity & Judaism

We spend too much time analyzing what has developed this tale, which is how we see it at face value, but I had this thought last night & the irony is striking. Shall we call it an anvil? Anyway, have fun with that, everyone hates my edits & good luck finding a reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.218.85.222 (talk) 02:41, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Can someone add Valentine in the house of Escalus, he is Mercutios brother, aye? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.6.147.218 (talk) 20:06, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from GLUBGLUBdippyfish, 17 April 2011
GLUBGLUBdippyfish (talk) 13:25, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The characters are wrong. Montague: Sampson Gregory lord Montague lady Montague Benvolio

Capulet: Lord & Lady Capulet Abram Tybalt

GLUBGLUBdippyfish (talk) 13:25, 17 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry, Youtube videos of part of a 1996 movie aren't necessarily an accurate representation of Shakespeare's play (which is what this article is about). As far as I can see, all the characters you listed are under the correct headings in the article, and if you click the blue links from their names (or the link to Characters in Romeo and Juliet), you'll see that they are correctly described.  (And Montague and Capulet are not Lord Montague and Lord Capulet, as the character descriptions demonstrate.) --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 15:19, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Rejecting the The Danvers/Long feud
The facts of the feuding families and the assistance Southampton gave to the murderers as they fled into exile are well-attested and not in dispute. The possible connexion to the exile in R&J is discussed by many authors, such as Katherine Duncan-Jones, Alan Palmer and Richard Wilson. There's no reason why a balanced account can't be included here. --Old Moonraker (talk) 10:10, 15 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Including speculations of this kind is alway a little tricky. I would suggest that a cautious approach would be to limit ourselves to accounts from literary / theatre studies that discuss the possible influence, rather than that of historians eager to find significance for the events they write about (I accept that's my own speculation). The actions/events are pretty generic and that they correlate with events represented in the play doesn't mean there's an influence. But I accept that proving influence is very difficult. It looks like at least one of the three people OM lists is from a literature department. I would expect them to be attentive to the complexities and difficulties of influence on art in a way that historians may not be. If it's a contentious issue, could we perhaps see the evidence here first? No reader is going to suffer from its absence in the meantime.  • DP •  {huh?} 13:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Good points. The reason I mentioned Katherine D-J (Professor, English faculty, Oxford) first is that her book is gradually creeping up my "to read next" pile, rather than any preference for her non-partisan, not-a-historian credentials. I'll give it a little nudge towards the top. --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:17, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. Wilson's a lit person too, I gather from his article (don't know his work myself).  • DP •  {huh?} 16:29, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, first of all: the material—covering a speculation as to an inspiration for Shakespeare's plot (which is fairly solidly matched to Brooke etc. to booth, making this fail the Occam test)—is entirely misplaced in the Date and text section, so it would need to be added somewhere else if included. Mainly though, my concern is with due weight: unless the Arden or Oxford (or similar) critical editions cover this—or at least leaves room to examine other publication—I don't see how we can include this here without giving it undue weight. A more in-depth article on the known and potential sources of the play, along the lines of Sources of Hamlet would be a more natural place to include it. Anyways, I haven't looked at this in any detail, so I don't want to give the impression that I'm necessarily dead set against including this. I mainy just wanted it brought up on talk so we could discuss the what, how, and if of it. If anyone wants to point me at some decent cites for this I'll have a look. --Xover (talk) 17:49, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * An examination of events was made in The Feud and Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet: a Reconsideration. ALISON WALL. It is available in pdf here http://escholarship.usyd.edu.au/journals/index.php/SSE/article/view/356. I personally have an open mind on the subject. Brograve (talk) 09:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Characters' names
There are some interesting questions about what are the correct names of the characters in this play, if this has a definitive answer. The First Folio does not have a cast list, characters are introduced as "old Mountague (sic) and his wife" and "old Capulet & his wife" and where it is necessary to differentiate the wives in an early scene they are described as "Wife" and "2. Wife". The 2 main characters are introduced as "Romeo" and "Iuliet" (sic) and their family background is simply implied. So are names like "Lady Montague" or "Romeo Montague" later inventions? PatGallacher (talk) 17:19, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Q1 and Q2 are similar. PatGallacher (talk) 00:53, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Some were added by the First Folio editors, others are found from stage directions or play text, or even pieced together from the names of the historical figures they were based on, or what they are named in contemporary plays on the same topic. I don't know that anyone has done a study of this, but I would have expected the cast lists to have been essentially settled at some point around the early to mid 18th-century. I'm sure there are exceptions, but… --Xover (talk) 20:20, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Vandalism
Why does this page seem especially susceptible to vandalism by juvenile idiots who replace words with puerile rubbish? Anybody know? AndrewJFulker (talk) 11:49, 27 October 2011 (UTC)
 * My guess is that it is a regular set text for exams - GCSEs, A-level and/or equivalents in countries other than Britain - and some school-children have discovered that Wikipedia is The Encyclopedia That Anyone Can Edit, so they do. --<b style="color:forestgreen;">Guillaume</b><i style="color:blue;">Tell</i> 17:19, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Pyramus & Thisbe
Why isn't P&T's ancestry of R&J in the opening paragraphs? IMO it's much more worth mentioning than some mostly-forgotten intermediary poem. - Frankie1969 (talk) 20:07, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Mostly because it is too far removed; it's not accurate to say that Romeo and Juliet is "based" on 'the legend of Pyramus and Thisbe, but rather there are parallells between the two stories and, since the latter was well known, it is likely that Shakespeare had some level of inspiration from it. But the immediate ancestors of Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet are Brooke, Bandello, and da Porto; and these are much more closely related than Ovid's version of an ancient legend. --Xover (talk) 20:17, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

The real people on which the play was based
check this site http://shakespearesolved.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/the-real-romeo-and-juliet.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.245.30.193 (talk) 11:27, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know where the TV series Jeopardy! got this, but there were real families on which the play was based, and this article says nothing about that. Only that there had been plays with similar themes, but nothing about the possibility that one of the inspirations was this real couple. I was sure I had heard they were real people. I can't find the proof myself, though I suppose I could look harder. The big problem is that I'm reluctant to tinker with a featured article.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 18:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Jeopardy's editors are probably thinking of Dante's Divine Comedy and canto six of Purgatorio. Or possibly Mariotto and Gianozza by Masuccio Salernitano, since Salernitano presents his story as an actual event that took place within his own lifetime. Neither of which I would really say supports a simplistic assertion that it is "based on real people". In any case, this is dealt with in the article, in the Sources section. --Xover (talk) 20:11, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything in that section that says they might have been real people. I'll keep looking for information, but i'm sure I heard it somewhere.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 20:25, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Perhaps they're thinking of the issue discussed above in the section (link to a relevant paper at the end of the thread)? --Xover (talk) 20:28, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Juliette's age
Just added Juliette's age - she was 13 (Lady Cap and Nurse have a conversation about it in Act I Sc. iii: LADY CAP: She's not fourteen.) I think this is of some importance, given the sexuality angle - Romeo's age isn't given, but he seems to be in his late teens. PiCo (talk) 02:58, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

Citation confirmation request regarding Julie Sanders and The Killers
Would someone with Julie Sanders' book (Shakespeare and music : afterlives and borrowings) please check on page 187 to see if "Romeo and Juliet" did indeed influence The Killers? I suspect we have a troll. --Cfsibley (talk) 15:29, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Infobox?
Alright, I'm curious. What's the rationale for not including an infobox on this page? <b style="color:#660000; font-family:Andalus;">Bob</b> Amnertiopsis ∴<sub style="color:#FF9999; font-family:Tunga;">ChatMe! 20:02, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Never mind, just saw your edit summary. Merry Christmas! <b style="color:#660000; font-family:Andalus;">Bob</b> Amnertiopsis ∴<sub style="color:#FF9999; font-family:Tunga;">ChatMe! 20:13, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Tybalt, Prince of Cats
In the play Tybalt is called "Prince of Cats". This is an obvious allusion to the name of Tibert the cat in the French medieval stories from Reynard the Fox.

My question is:

What is the path of transmission from Reynard the Fox to the play?

Did Shakespeare had directly available to him a version of the old medieval stories of Reynard the Fox? If yes, it should be included as a minor source.

Or was it simply folk lore in Elizbethan England?

Or does the character corresponding to Tybalt occur with that name in one of the sources of the play?

If yes, is the connection between Tybalt's name and Tibert the cat of Reynard the Fox already made in that source?

Thank you for adding that information to the article if you happen to have it.

Contact Basemetal   here  18:19, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 January 2014
For completeness, I suggest a small update to the "Romeo & Juliet" page, section 7. Legacy, sub-section 7.6 Literature and Art:

The 2014 novel “The Ghostly Father”(Refs 1,2) by Sue Barnard (Ref 3)attempts a retelling of the play’s story, from the point of view of Friar Lawrence (Ref 4). The novel offers a plausible way in which the outcome could have been happier, without altering the dramatic scenes contained in Shakespeare’s play.

Ref 1 ISBN 978-1-909841-44-4 Ref 2 http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Ghostly-Father-Sue-Barnard/dp/1909841447/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390769480&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Ghostly+Father Ref 3 http://broad-thoughts-from-a-home.blogspot.co.uk/ Ref 4 http://www.messengernewspapers.co.uk/leisure/local_leisure/10955460.A_happy_ending_for_Romeo_and_Juliet

87.112.83.63 (talk) 21:05, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Not done - book does not seem notable enough yet to be added to the article as an important addition to the Legacy section. -- Diannaa (talk) 20:24, 29 January 2014 (UTC)