Talk:Ron "Pigpen" McKernan/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 01:43, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Images

 * IMO, the source parameter in the media data and non-free use rationale isn't ideal. Deadheads are pretty meticulous about their source data, so I find it close to impossible to believe that the source is unknown here, more so because this is a photograph produced by a professional.  So, something isn't right here. If I had to guess, I would speculate that it's probably a promotional head shot published by the record company. Further research on the part of the nominator is encouraged. Viriditas (talk) 06:43, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * First thing I think to do is to ask (who uploaded it) and see what they think. Secondly, if it's not obvious where the photo comes from (it has to be from a professional shoot for sure), I'm sure we can get another shot from, say, Rolling Stone or Getty Images (which will have proper attribution) with Pigpen on stage playing harmonica with his distinctive hat and bandanna, crop it down to size, and use that as an appropriate FUR. It take it the rest of the criteria aside from NFCC#4 are okay? Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)  09:26, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would leave the current image for now. I'm just raising the question for the moment, so it's intended for rumination, not any immediate action.  It's clearly a promotional head shot, likely for the record company.  My concern is that because deadheads have a reputation for collecting and categorizing every bit of GD trivia, it seems odd that the source information is missing.  I think if you look a bit closer in the available literature, you will immediately find the source. Viriditas (talk) 09:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I just spent some time looking through the online archives. It looks like this was taken in 1968, possibly by photographer Herb Greene. Could you shoot him an email and ask him? It's greene.herb.foto AT gmail.com, or you can use the web form on his site. Viriditas (talk) 10:12, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Confirmed. It is his photo.  I'll go ahead and add the source, but I'm not clear as to whether we can use it. Viriditas (talk) 10:13, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Current version of the photo is likely in violation of WP:NFCC and WP:NFCC. Viriditas (talk) 10:21, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've commented the image out of the article for the short term. As mentioned in the non-free rationale, Pigpen does appear in the group shot File:Grateful Dead (1970).png, and a crop of him comes out at about 140x240 pixels, where he's partially obscured by other band members and putting his face in front of his hand. I think going through back issues of Billboard and finding similar images with no copyright notice is the answer here. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  10:37, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Infobox

 * Looks good. Viriditas (talk) 09:05, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Lead

 * First pass: content, A+. You've nicely touched on the most important points.  The prose style, however, needs a loving touch.  I'll have more to say with a second reading. The flow needs work, is stilted in places, and repeats (or omits) words unnecessarily. Viriditas (talk) 09:12, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll get everything else done then have a look at the lead again. It's normally the last thing I do on articles. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  15:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've trimmed some bits in the lead I thought were unnecessary. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  12:45, 8 September 2015 (UTC)


 * WP:OVERLINK: harmonica is linked twice. Viriditas (talk) 05:31, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Usually this is because I put the word in early later. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)


 * He was a founding member of the San Francisco band the Grateful Dead, which he performed in from its inception in 1965 to 1972
 * Comment: I'm not convinced the city should be linked to in the lead. You're not really referring to the Bay Area in context here, you are referring to the music scene in the 1960s known as the San Francisco Sound.  I suppose San Francisco band could be linked but it's not entirely necessary.  Then again, "San Francisco band" sounds a bit odd to my ear (and I'm from the Bay Area), so something like "San Francisco-based" might work better, I don't really know.  Also, if you're going to say "from its inception in 1965", you might also want to add, "to his departure due to illness in 1972". Viriditas (talk) 03:19, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We don't need "from its inception" as we've just been told he's a founding member (which implies that) The rear of the band's debut album's rear sleeve has the annotation "San Francisco's Grateful Dead" so it seems to be okay referring to it that way. Anyway, I've changed a few things around. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * He began socialising around the San Francisco area
 * This should be San Francisco Bay Area. Viriditas (talk) 03:32, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Done <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * meeting guitarist Jerry Garcia
 * Meeting him where? Why not say instead, "where he met guitarist Jerry Garcia at a music store". Was Garcia primarily a guitarist at this time? Viriditas (talk) 03:35, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've gone for "becoming friends with Jerry Garcia" - the next sentence goes on to say what they then did. (Garcia was primarily a banjo player at this point, FWIW) <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, Pigpen met Garcia at Dana Morgan's in Palo Alto (not San Francisco), and at the time, Garcia was teaching guitar and banjo. I fixed the location. Viriditas (talk) 02:46, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * By 1971, a combination of increasing alcoholism and liver damage had begun to adversely affect his health, and he was advised to cease touring by doctors.
 * Eliminate unnecessary words and improve the active voice: "By 1971, doctors advised him to stop touring due to the effects of alcoholism and liver damage on his health."
 * I wouldn't know an active voice from an active directory domain service, but I've gone for "By 1971, his health had been affected by alcoholism and liver damage and doctors advised him to stop touring" <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:52, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to close this out. Looking over the lead, I'm seeing the following:
 * Ronald Charles McKernan, known as Pigpen (September 8, 1945 – March 8, 1973)
 * Shouldn't "known as Pigpen" come after the dates? Viriditas (talk) 00:23, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * According to WP:MOSBIO, yes it should. An IP did it, that's my excuse :-P <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:13, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * He was a founding member of the San Francisco band the Grateful Dead and played in the band from 1965 to 1972.
 * To cut down on repetition, how about changing the second instance of "band" to group here?
 * Good idea, let's do that. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:13, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * He enjoyed listening to his father's collection of records and taught himself how to play harmonica and piano. He began socialising around the San Francisco bay area, becoming friends with Jerry Garcia.
 * Try alternating "McKernan" and "He" to lessen the repetition. Based on the current structure, in the second sentence ("He began socialising..."), use "McKernan".
 * I've done something slightly different but with the same effect. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:13, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm marking the lead section "resolved". It's much improved since the pre-review version, and I thank you for your hard work.  However, as a disinterested reader (who must put praise and blame aside), I would like to see less about his illness and death and more about his personal life and legacy in the lead. Viriditas (talk) 21:46, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Early life

 * McKernan was born on September 8, 1945
 * Comma goes after year. Viriditas (talk) 05:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, this is US English. Fixed <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Why McKernan here instead of Ronald Charles McKernan? Viriditas (talk) 05:49, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Oops, fixed. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Phil McKernan, was a R&B and blues disc jockey, who had been one of the first white DJs on a black radio station, KDIA.
 * It would flow better if it read, "who had been one of the first white DJs on KIDA, a black radio station." Viriditas (talk) 02:17, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Done <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:28, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * You've got biker linked to motorcycle instead of Biker culture or one of the links listed there. Viriditas (talk) 05:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a better choice, done <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * He grew up with many African-American friends and felt very strongly connected to black music and culture.
 * Eliminate "many" and "very" from your prose, except for rare circumstances where they are needed. Viriditas (talk) 05:44, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Copyedited, including one other "many" elsewhere. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Common terms linked: principal, alcohol, singer. Viriditas (talk) 05:37, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Done alcohol and singer, but not principal as non-US readers (as the Dead's 1972 tour showed, they were popular in Europe) might not know what a principal is in this case. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * In his early teens, McKernan left Palo Alto High School by mutual agreement with the school's principal.
 * As the reader, I want to know why he left school. What was the reason?  It seems odd to keep the reader hanging like this. Viriditas (talk) 00:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This sentence is not in the source given. Other sources give a passing mention to him being expelled from school but don't make an issue of it. As it doesn't sound important at all, I've removed this. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:45, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * He built up a substantial collection of old blues 78s from labels such as Kent Records and Chess Records. McKernan began spending time around coffeehouses and music stores, and worked at Dana Morgan's Music store in San Francisco where he met guitarist Jerry Garcia.
 * Sorry, but the continuity here seems all screwy. He collected records before he spent time around music stores?  Surely, it's the other way around.  The sentence "He built up a substantial collection..." should come after noting he spent time around music stores, no? Viriditas (talk) 01:59, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, Pigpen's father was a radio DJ, so I can easily believe he was exposed to early records at an early age, and only began to socialise later. Several accounts say he was a quiet and amiable chap, so I can easily picture him enjoying listening to blues records at home on his own. Had the internet and Wikipedia existed in 1961, I can believe he'd want to have a go at editing pages on blues artists. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  09:13, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Toponymist Adrian Room has suggested McKernan was given the name due to his untidy and unclean habits.[8] However, other accounts claim that he got the nickname owing to his similarity to Pig-Pen, the permanently dirty character in the comic-strip Peanuts.
 * This is a bit confusing. Do the sources claim there are two different accounts of his stage name, or is this juxtaposition your own? I ask because it sounds like what Room and others are saying is the same.  He was given the name "Pig-Pen" due to his untidy and unclean habits, much like the comic-strip character.  It's not quite clear what the difference is here. Viriditas (talk) 02:03, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Two sources (one from a generally accepted expert on names and nomenclature, the other based on personal association with Pigpen) give conflicting accounts, so per WP:VNT and WP:DUE I thought it best to just state the two opinions, mention who made them, and leave it at this. How might we rewrite this? <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  09:13, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've marked the early life section "resolved", however, I have two comments. One, I've made light copyedits to the section.  Please review.  Two, I'm still maintaining my earlier contention that the narrative continuity and chronology is screwy here.  In other words, Pigpen became friends with musician Jerry Garcia after spending time around Dana Morgan's Music Store, and he likely built up his record collection after spending time around music stores.  Do what you wilt, but every time I read this, I find the continuity backwards and it bugs me. Viriditas (talk) 22:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Grateful Dead

 * Around 1965...Around this time
 * Avoid word repetition, in this case, starting two sentences in a row with "around". Viriditas (talk) 02:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The Dead's early sets were centred around blues and R&B covers, chosen by McKernan.
 * Link sets. Is that comma really needed? Viriditas (talk) 02:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * However, by the end of 1966, Garcia had improved his musical skills and wanted to assert himself more as a leader and musical director, changing the band's direction and reducing McKernan's contributions.
 * Use "however" sparingly. At the moment, you've used it six times in the current article. You probably don't need it here.  You could try a different approach: "By the end of 1966, Garcia's musical skills had improved and he began to assert himself as a leader and musical director, changing the band's direction and reducing McKernan's contributions." Viriditas (talk) 02:20, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * All "howevers" gone. I remember somebody joking just before a FA review started about "will there be a proliferation of howevers"? but I can't remember where I saw it now. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  09:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * All "howevers" gone. I remember somebody joking just before a FA review started about "will there be a proliferation of howevers"? but I can't remember where I saw it now. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  09:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * In 1967 and 1968 respectively, drummer Mickey Hart and keyboardist Tom Constanten joined the Grateful Dead, causing the band to take a stylistic turn from blues-based danceable rock toward full-blown experimental psychedelia influenced by avant-garde jazz, serialism, and world music traditions.
 * That's a really long sentence and your use of "respectively" hampers the flow. Try splitting it up: "Drummer Mickey Hart joined the band in 1967, followed by keyboardist Tom Constanten in 1968. Their addition influenced the band to turn away from blues-based danceable rock towards full-blown, experimental psychedelia influenced by avant-garde jazz, serialism, and world music traditions." Viriditas (talk) 02:24, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I trimmed it. Since those musical genres aren't really what Pigpen (and out and out blues man) is about, they can be slimmed down. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  09:14, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * This addition of content from 2006 probably needs additional verification. I'm skeptical of the band name, "Jerry Garrceeah and His Friends". Viriditas (talk) 03:01, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Temporarily changed to Jerry Garcia and Friends per the source, however, Jackson 1999, p. 156, doesn't seem to verify it on that particular page. Please revisit. Viriditas (talk) 03:05, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, I meant to take this out (I did want to verify that Pigpen was briefly fired from the Dead, which books do have, but forgot to take out the rest). <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  08:27, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to close this section out. I just made a light copyedit.  Please review. The third paragraph is a bit confusing.   You write, "Kreutzmann objected to replacing McKernan and said the event never happened", which doesn't make much sense to me.  Can you explain it further in some way?  Why would he deny it happened? Otherwise, I'm closing this section out as resolved. Viriditas (talk) 04:01, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Other work

 * Comment: It's unusual to read about his posthumous work before the health and death section instead of after it. It's also not clear if you need third-level headings, as the second-level "Biography" section heading isn't necessary. Viriditas (talk) 05:26, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've moved "health and death" down to between "Personal life" and "Legacy" <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear on how that addresses the problem. I'm still reading about McKernan's death and his bootleg recordings three sections before the article even says he died. I'm still not clear as to why there is a separate biography section with "early life", "Grateful Dead", and "other work", when "musical style and influences", "personal life", "health and death", and "legacy" do not seem to be part of his biography.  Is there a good reason to have a second-level biography section at all?  If you removed it, I would still wonder about why his health and death come later, but at least it would make more sense.  I just don't get the current structure of the article. Viriditas (talk) 04:33, 17 September 2015 (UTC)


 * These included a jam session with Jorma Kaukonen (later a founder of Jefferson Airplane) in 1964.
 * Although it's tricky, since you are referring to "a number of recordings" in the previous sentence, I would change "These included" to "These include". I would also do one of two things: either move the date before the parenthetical so that the flow of the sentence isn't interrupted ('These include a jam session in 1964 with Jorma Kaukonen [later a founder of Jefferson Airplane]'), or remove the parenthetical and incorporate it into the sentence ('These include a jam session in 1964 with Jorma Kaukonen, who would later found Jefferson Airplane'). It doesn't really matter what you do, but putting the parenthetical before the date is like placing a speed bump in the middle of the sentence.  You don't want to disrupt the reader, you want to simplify their experience and make it easy for them to comprehend and retain. Viriditas (talk) 00:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Some solo recordings show a markedly different style compared to his work with the Grateful Dead, including a much softer vocal style. He accompanied himself on acoustic guitar, an instrument he seldom played with the Dead.
 * There's something missing here, as the "He accompanied himself on acoustic guitar..." comes out of nowhere and is somewhat incomplete. I get that you are trying to show that there is at least one recording where he displays a different style, but this last sentence doesn't really connect with the previous one. See if you can clean this up. Viriditas (talk) 00:47, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've addressed both these points together. The original source is talking about the contents of a bootleg, so I've redone the paragraph based on that. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:26, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I would like to close this section out, but its placement in the biography section (per my comments above) make me think it doesn't really belong here. What if you got rid of this section entirely and added the content to "Musical style and influences"? I think it would work much better there.  If you disagree, what about adding to the "Discography" section?  It could work there as well. Viriditas (talk) 04:38, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As the "other work" section is only one paragraph, I've put it on the end of "Musical style and influences" as suggested. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:14, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Health and death

 * Content OK on first pass, but copyedits and prose improvements may be needed. Viriditas (talk) 05:18, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've had a trim <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Re: 27 Club, I see you reverted this recent edit - although Pig died at 27 he's not what normally comes to mind when the term is mentioned. He's not mentioned on this video for one thing (oh yes, that's me on organ). <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:57, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Musical style and influences

 * Unlike Garcia or Weir, the other main vocalists,
 * That seems unnecessary. Why not just say something like, "Unlike vocalists Garcia and Weir"? Viriditas (talk) 09:36, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixed, though I went a bit further than just that. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  11:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I removed overlinking from this section. You already linked to these instruments more than enough in the above sections, including the infobox, lead, and the body. No need to link again when you've got three existing links. Viriditas (talk) 00:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This usually indicates I wrote the article backwards or in a non-linear order ;-) <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:15, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * His main influence was the blues, and he brought forward standards for the band to cover, that he could sing lead on, such as Otis Redding's "Pain in my Heart".
 * This sentence is painful to read. How about reading it again and trying to clean it up? Try, for example, changing "brought forward" to "proposed" and removing the comma after "cover". Viriditas (talk) 00:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Try that <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:15, 12 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I've made some light copyedits for clarity and readability here. Please review. Viriditas (talk) 01:30, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Just a few things - there were too many occurrences of "featured" so I reduced that, and Tony Sclafani compared Pigpen to Brian Jones in 2013, but he might have changed his mind since. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:55, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Personal life

 * Joplin joined McKernan on stage at the Fillmore West on June 7, 1969 with the Grateful Dead
 * Comma goes after the year. Viriditas (talk) 05:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixed <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * McKernan became a minor celebrity due to his distinctive biker image, to the extent that in 1969, the band's record company, Warner Bros. Records ran a "Pigpen Look-Alike Contest".
 * I'm wondering if a little tweaking might help this flow better: Something like, "to the extent that in 1969, Warner Bros. Records, the band's record company, ran a 'Pigpen Look-Alike Contest'." Viriditas (talk) 05:02, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Have a look now <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  15:45, 5 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Since you mention the house at 710 Ashbury Street, you should probably also mention the drug bust which resulted in his arrest. Viriditas (talk) 02:00, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Do you have a good quality source for that? As people related to the bust are still living (eg: Bob Weir) I'd need this per WP:BLP. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  10:50, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As you are likely well aware, this drug bust appears in virtually every reliable source on the Dead, and has been covered by mainstream media such as Reuters. It is neither controversial, contested, or disputed, so I'm unclear why you think there could possibly be BLP concerns. Basically, it's a historical fact that this arrest occurred, and the irony of course, is that Pigpen was arrested for a drug he didn't use. Of course, I can provide sources, but it sounds like you are already aware of them. It would make a nice addition to this article. The most recent book on this subject, So Many Roads (2015), has an interesting account of the arrest.  There's a lot there about Pigpen. Viriditas (talk) 20:58, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, I meant can you recommend a good source? I wasn't saying the bust wasn't notable (it was in the first issue of Rolling Stone - how much more "notable" can you get for a band?) I've used Bill Kreutzmann's autobiography and the Rolling Stone piece. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  13:28, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Per the above, the So Many Roads (2015) source is on Google Books and covers the bust in depth and points to other sources. Can you access it?  Also, check this out. Viriditas (talk) 22:08, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Even so, my thoughts are since Pigpen's main claim to notability is as a musician, not a drug dealer, that what we have now is the right level of balance per WP:BALASPS : "For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic." - and that's a core policy. The San Francisco Gate blog relegates Pig to a trivial passing mention; the bulk of that piece is not about him., - can you offer a third opinion to this? <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  08:56, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure we are communicating effectively. Pigpen is not a drug dealer, and none of the sources (and there sure are a lot of them) portray him as a drug dealer.  Pigpen was arrested, along with other members of the Grateful Dead.  His face was plastered on the front page of San Francisco's newspaper and the arrest ran on the front page.  It was a big deal then and it is written about in every major source.  The irony of the arrest, was that Pigpen was not just innocent of the charges, but didn't use cannabis, the drug that formed the basis of the arrest.  In the United States at this time, musicians like the Grateful Dead were routinely harassed because of their hippie culture; drug arrests were the primarily mechanism for harassing the hippie culture at the time.  Covering this notable arrest does not portray Pigpen as a drug dealer in any way, but rather illustrates the harassment he and other members of his generation went through. I'm not at all clear why you point to trivial mention in the latter piece when I gave you the name of the former source (published 2015) that gives a thorough treatment of the arrest and discusses Pigpen's reaction.  This has little to nothing to do with drug dealing and everything to do with Pigpen's experiences in the San Francisco hippie culture of the late 1960s, which was constantly under attack by the police. It sounds like you are deliberately leaving this notable event out of the article based on your own personal reasons.  Have you had a chance to review sources like So Many Roads on Google Books?  I think it will change your mind. I knew about the arrest and found it odd that it was missing from his biography. Viriditas (talk) 19:53, 15 September 2015 (UTC)


 * We're definitely at cross purposes here. You seem to be suggesting the event is covered in the article at all (see "Ironically, McKernan was arrested..." through to "..noted McKernan had a substantial rifle collection"), whereas I think two sentences are sufficient coverage of this event (it's the same level of coverage as in Jerry Garcia's article, though as that's not a GA or FA it's not a fair comparison). I suggest asking for second opinion per the GAN procedure. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  12:22, 16 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I haven't suggested anything of the kind, and I didn't notice you had even added the material until today. I don't need or require a second opinion because 1) you added the material after I raised the problem of omission, and 2) I already passed the article on the relevant criteria (see bottom), and 3) my suggestions are recommendations for future improvement. Viriditas (talk) 20:36, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Legacy

 * Prose consistency: you need to decide how you will use names in each section and stick to one format for the entire article. For example, you use the full name of Mickey Hart but only the last names of other musicians.  Pick a style and stick to it. Viriditas (talk) 09:33, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Everyone should get the full name for first mention in the body, then last name only. I have made exceptions for longer articles (eg: Claudia Cardinale), but this one isn't long enough to that. I've also tidied up who played what as I suspect readers may not necessarily know this (with the possible exception of Jerry Garcia). <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  11:00, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Discography

 * Looks fine to me. Viriditas (talk) 09:23, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Criteria
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria


 * 1) Is it reasonably well written?
 * A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:
 * In progress. Viriditas (talk) 00:51, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Lead: resolved. Viriditas (talk) 21:48, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Suggest more about personal life and legacy and less about death in lead. Viriditas (talk) 22:12, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Early life: resolved. Viriditas (talk) 22:10, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Suggest tighter narrative continuity in regard to meeting Garcia and collecting records. Viriditas (talk) 22:12, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Grateful Dead: resolved. Viriditas (talk) 04:01, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Other work: recommend moving content in this section to either "musical style and influences" or "discography". Viriditas (talk) 04:39, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Resolved. Viriditas (talk) 10:43, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Musical style and influences: resolved. Viriditas (talk) 10:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Personal life: resolved. Viriditas (talk) 11:07, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Health and death: resolved. Viriditas (talk) 10:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
 * Looks good. Viriditas (talk) 00:51, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
 * A. Has an appropriate reference section:
 * OK. Viriditas (talk) 23:26, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * B. Cites reliable sources, where necessary:
 * Cites RS. Viriditas (talk) 02:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * C. No original research:
 * No OR. Viriditas (talk) 02:04, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Is it broad in its coverage?
 * A. Major aspects:
 * OK. Viriditas (talk) 23:28, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I would like to see more about Pigpen's arrest. Viriditas (talk) 22:50, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * B. Focused (see summary style):
 * OK. Viriditas (talk) 00:51, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Is it neutral?
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * Neutral. Viriditas (talk) 00:51, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * OK. Viriditas (talk) 19:35, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
 * OK. Viriditas (talk) 19:34, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
 * OK. Viriditas (talk) 19:34, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Good to go. Viriditas (talk) 11:07, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Epilogue
This review has been open for two weeks with no end in sight, so I am closing it now. <b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b> <sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)  11:53, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your suggestion, but I'll be closing the review as the reviewer. Further, I have worked on this sporadically while at home, work, and on vacation so the fact that it's been open for two weeks is inconsequential.   Thanks for your patience, but given the progress up above, I would say the end is clearly in sight.  Just be patient. Viriditas (talk) 12:47, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Looks like this is a Good article now. Very nice. Thanks to Ritchie333 and to Viriditas for all their work. — Mudwater (Talk) 11:46, 19 September 2015 (UTC)