Talk:Ron Stoppable/Archive 1

Wow, Quite a Vocabulary
It mentions in the article that Ron has a good vocabulary and uses words like "procastinate" and "mistique" twice. XP I'll leave it for you guys to take care of. 72.85.27.210 05:20, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanxs for catching that. =)   Jumping cheese  Contact 06:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Um, "mystique" is misspelled. And Ron didn't say it. Mr. North did. --Erased Paper 09:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Wow...that's bad. I'll fix the page.   Jumping cheese  Contact 09:25, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Ron said the word mystique in StD, when Sumo Ninja grabbed him in Bueno Natcho. Thorius Maximus 23:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Those words are normal for teenagers Ron's age in other countries. It doesn't rate mentioning.


 * perfectblue 13:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes it does, you have keep in mind that no other character uses the vocab like Ron in the series, the simply statement that in reality isn't like this doesn't mean anything, very few are the teenagers of the age of 16/17 come up(or even know) words such procastination.
 * ThoriusMaximus18:37, 156January 2007 (UTC)


 * It might not be a regular word in American-English (which has been sliced down over the years because of the number of immigrants who learned English at an older age and passed a more restricted version down to their kids), but it's relatively normal in colonial English. Kids in places like Australia and Britain can be expected to use it in conversation from about 10+, and younger if they were educated outside the state system.


 * perfectblue 07:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Due to Ron's lack of social interactment this leads in spending more time alone. A common symptome with unsocial kids is that they develop a more complicated vocab in part becasue they do some research on their own nad their own interests diverge. The Kim Possible is a simplified universe, and one needs to know where to focus. Many factors in this universe are completely irrational when analysed on a more realistic point of view. You need to focus on the fact that no other character speaks like Ron, remember a cartoon doesn't have in mind if children from the other side of the atlantic use this words(in reality), a cartoon offers a limited perpective, which is the logical basis for it's own universe, but nevertheless it is still based on logical and psychological laws of reality. Even in ralistic terms Ron's behaviour anmd life fits in terms of justification for a child with a more complex vocab. By being the only character who uses this vocab(remembers it) he shows differentiation. In cartoons there isn't a need to exhaustively justificate a factor, in this case by saying these two words under the correct situation and with the correct meaning it shows that this is a trait that belongs to Ron. Take for instance the fact that Kim doesn't excel in everything, this is shown only in some examples (in part only some to show that she, no matter how diversed her skills are still she really doesn't excel in certain entire fields, this example doesn't need to be shown again and again, just in some examples, which give us a clue of which field Kim doesn't seem to excel.
 * ThoriusMaximus11:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

No offense, but you're reading too much into this. It's basic demographics.

1) Kids with big vocabs are usually from more academic households (they pick their language skills up from their parents, after all) where pop-culture takes a backseat. It is usually this that makes them less popular. Geeks don't become geeks because they are shunned, they are shunned because they are geeks.

2) Kim possible is a children's show aimed at Disney's primary audience (North American pre-teens). Therefore the characters use the same vocab as a North American pre-teen. Ron's vocab is upscaled slightly to set him apart from the other characters because normal methods (like hip-hop slang or foreign accents etc) would not be appropriate.

3)What does this have to do with Kim?

perfectblue 11:40, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

1)I'm sorry but you're stereotyping, recent analysis have shown that kids who aren't as sociable as other tends to do more activities concerning only themselves, this as a result makes someone take interest in certain activities that others wouldn't find interesting, ironically, these even have less deep ties with their families because this social isolation leads to general behaviour at isolating. Ron is an example of this, he even doesn't have much of a relationship with her mother of with his behaviour isn't appreciated by her and vice-versa. In fact you did say something right and that's Ron is in fact a geek in practically every aspect, it's the differences he has concerning other people that make him socially unacceptable and as a result he gains certains interests and behaviours that make others see him as someone who doens't fit. Don't forget that Ron already had a different behaviour in his early life, before he was even beginning to the outcasted(See his behaviour and compreension of concepts in the second ep of a Switch in Time): 2: I understand what you mean, however, at the same time, to have the typical geek figure in a teen show is in fact quite common. Other character may know the same vocab as Ron, however they do not use it. Normally it is common for geeks to uses somewhat uncommon and complex vocab in terms of meaning, in other to give a more detailed and accurate view of things, this comes from their lack of social experience and habits they created while spending mostly with their selves.

3) As comparison between Kim and Ron is meerly an example, it has nothing to do with Kim. I could arrange other examples in the show. Once again Ron's differences are meerly to differentiate this character from the others, each character needs to have his/her's own differences in cartoon, wether they subtile or clearly visible.

You may take out the part concerning the vocab, however in my opinion it makes things incomplete. To me the series makes it clear that he uses not so common vocab, sries don't follow the same standards as in reality and the clue is to comparison between characters. The simplicity of this cartoon makes the vocab standard fall, this is a kids show after all, nevertheless, such unique characterists in a character, such a for instance to say a certain range of vocab, do make differentiate in his aspect from other characters, especailly when he is the only one to use this vocab. In fact I think you're even forgetting Ron's own motto "Never be normal, this has been constantly reflected on the character, due to weirdness and lack of "normality"

Feel free to delete that part if you wish, I just don't agree with it.


 * ThoriusMaximus22:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Did those studies ever go on to say what it was that prevented those children from fitting in? I'm sorry, but I consider this to be a chicken and egg issue that is being twisted to shift the emphasis for social exclusion away from the excluded individual and onto society.


 * It's true that excluded children develop along certain key paths - often either rebellion/counter culture, or geekdom (for want of a better word), however, the direction that they go is often an enhanced version of why they didn't fit in in the first place. A child who is picked on because they are quiet and studious is likely to become quieter and more studious, a child who is picked on because they are not athletic is likely to become even less athletic, and so on. If you bully black kid from a poor neighborhood because he's black and from a poor neighborhood, he's more likely to get into an angry counterculture than he is to become a bookworm (the same is true with white kids under these circumstances).


 * Anyway, it's still reading too much into the Ron situation. It's a kids show so the characters use kid friendly language most of the time, and Ron is the second part of a Disney double act, he uses these words because Kim doesn't.


 * perfectblue 10:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget this is only your interpretation on the subject, of course that mine doesn't have more credit than yours.

Along the series we've seen alot of strange differences coming from Ron, this is common in him, a character posesses differences that are acknowledged by all others, this speciffic situation is only one more of them.

I don't think I'm going to deep on this, because the basis for my point of view is in fact the motto that Ron uses, along with the recognition not only by Kim but by others, of what they think of Ron. Thus it's only a direct logical connection between this and Ron's characteristics, among them the vocab, which furthermor is not only used once but more than twice in the series, sometimes isolated incidents can be discarted, but one that repeats is harder to ignore, not to mention that they in the series don't go all that simple.

One more thing, with your last coment it's clearly shows you are not aware of the psychological reality of excluded children. It's your opinion that all this is a chicken egg issue, however you clearly don't realize this is fundamental part of Ron's beaviour, I don't think you realize this but if you insist to accept that Ron's entire behaviour comes from his outcast position.

You don't realize but entire last pharagraph justifies my point of view, by becoming socially excluded Ron's behaviour has become more and more excentric in many aspects, a thing which is the basis of Ron's rality, your opinions are based in that everything absolute, it clear on your last pharagraph, hwoever to much of your displease ironically msot children wgho become socially excluded do not become pessimists or develop any kind of hatred towards those arround, in fact it's quite the opposite, thet develop a severla lack of self condifence which makes them fail in a lot of things because their mentality is that they aren't capable of doing it. Second they also become extreme complacent and a common characteristic is that they cooperate without thinking about themselves and never say "no", in fear that they will be even more excluded in the future and at the same time they are uncertain of any step they make, you will also notice that they are extrmely polite as well as asking nothing in return, they even don't realize that they could be used to other's advantage, and they do not express themselves not defend their opinions due to their lack of self confidence. Ron fitts in this description almost perfectly, clearly indicating us that this is what made Ron what he is today, although his wierdness is in fact part of his nature since birth, not to mention that due to their insecuraty they will try to express themselves with a complex(and repetitive) logics because they don't have confidence in their own opinions, so they think they must expresses themselves as accurately and as perfect as possible, of course that anyone who hears this will tend to become annoyed, resulting only in his further isolation. This is exactly was happens with Ron as each time he makes a statement to someone they normally ignore him and call him a wierdo, this is a result of Ron uncommon points of view,(however correct) towards reality, which many find wierd, in the ep the truth hurts we see Ron at his best(before he his hit by the ray), he repeats his words because he is afraid of what he may say, and insecure, and he tries to justify himself as best as possible. These person also tend to behave in extreme ways, for instance, when they are valorized they feel themselves in a situation they rarely have been before, thus they don't realize hey behave inappropriately in he eyes of others, the same happens when they are asked to do something, they very usually will refuse because they are afraid to fail, and start giving complex reasons why, in the eyes of otehr people, they see this as only excuses, not to mention they behave very nervously in any social situation or even a private talk with someone.

This is your common example of an outcasted children, not a rebelious person, and yes, these statement are scientifically and estatistically prooved.

Excluded children do commonly show signs of either inexperience and frustation, however this last characteristic is rarely shown due to to fact they don't like express themselves, although in private it could be another story.

My opinion stands clear on this matter, Ron's insecuraties makes him develop uncommon behaviour and tendencies in socialized people, one of these characteristics is the vocab, not to mention that every single other behaviour Ron has fits in this description.

Ron expresses his opinion constantly showing lack of self confidence in his argument, thus the repetition of many words or simply blabling any word he can think of, in the end people see him as a wierdo due to his coments.

Anyway, this has become a most interesting debate. This is my last coment on this subject.

Do whatever you wish after reading this comment.


 * ThoriusMaximus15:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

That IS the essence of a chicken and egg argument. A child is excluded because of X. This exclusion causes X to become more pronounced which, in turn, leads to further social exclusion.

It varies from case to case (some kids are socially excluded for different reasons, for example being black in a white neighborhood, or having braces etc, rather than social inability), and you need to be able to look back on the individual case before you can write a definitive answer.

My standpoint - Ron being excluded because of his personality, rather than his personality developing because of his exclusion - is based on the earliest cannon version of Ron shown in any detail.

During part 2 of a sitch in time, pre-school Ron was shown to use a vocabulary and mannerisms that were geekier (and also far more advanced for his age) than present day Ron.

perfectblue 08:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

"During part 2 of a sitch in time, pre-school Ron was shown to use a vocabulary and mannerisms that were geekier (and also far more advanced for his age) than present day Ron."

And don't forget advanced conceptual(or abstract) compreesion.

Due to his life style and a great deal of it around Kim, some of his traits have changed, although I still say that the unusual vocab use would still be present from time to time. It is true that this is all due to character evolution, the evolution of his personatily. Some trait vanished(like his mannerisms which by the way are somewhat similar in some ways to "Evil Ron's"), his extensive reflection(although we sometimes see this trait appear, but not often) and to substitute them there is a complete disorganization with his logics in arguments(lack of self confidence), obsession concerning some subjets(for instance when he refused to believe that Drakken wasn't stealing christmas), extreme lazyness in everything, incapability in focussing, etc... Some geek traits disappear, others substitute them, although the initial ones do sometimes appear, because these traits(early age traits) are those that more precisely reflect his natural behaviour, a formal, extremely reflective, alert, avdanced concept compreension(thus intelligence). These trait are almost mostly seen in Bad Boy, a clue that his behaviour in the second ep of ASiT already reflected some direct and indirect evil tendencies(mostly indirect). In fact, if he maintained that behaviour he had initially(possibly natural behaviour) under proportionality rules(if nothing to dramatic happened, his behaivour would have remained the same but with some minor changes) them the vocab he would know and use in his teenage life would have been far more scientific, formal, complex, etc, than that of the "usual" teenager(Kim or Monique for instance).

I'm not saying that Ron uses frequently this vocab, just two of three times, yet I think these are enough to be worth of attention.

As I said before, feel free to change the vocab part if you want.


 * ThoriusMaximus04:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ronald Dean Stoppable?

 * This list of fictional martial arts seems to indicate that Ron's middle name is Dean. Does anyone have a real reference for this? -- ProveIt 08:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

That's just baseless speculation that someone believed to be fact. Erased Paper 19:31, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Crunchwrap supreme?
A few months ago Taco Bell came out with a food they call the Crunchwrap Supreme. Looks like a naco to me. -- ProveIt (talk) 04:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Kim Possible Creators
I added back the content regarding the interview with the series' creator. The interview is significant, indicating the challenge in starting up the series again. =)  Jumping cheese  Contact 03:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The thing is that that section already talked about that interview. So, by saying "Bob Schooley and Mark McCorkle agree", you're really saying ""Bob Schooley and Mark McCorkle agree with Bob Schooley and Mark McCorkle". --Erased Paper 08:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The section was talking about "directors of the show", not the interview with the creators. =D   Jumping cheese  Contact 20:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Read it again. The wiki page mentions "give geeks a chance" which they say in the interview. --Erased Paper 20:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I read it. How about I incorporate the interview into the section?  =D   Jumping cheese  Contact 20:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

SuperHeroBox
I think that a superherobox should be created for Ron, because of the character's importance in the series. Thorius Maximus 2:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

We could say in the Special Abilties the following things: Anormal cases of good luck, MMP, genius level intelligence in several manual activities related to building and others(cooking) Thorius Maximus 22:08, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Ron's Evil Potential
I think the series makes it clear that Ron was born to have been evil, Bad Boy completely justifies this but there are also other eps such as The New Ron. The purpose of this is in part to give an irony sence to this situation( a common things in all situations about Ron's talents) but at the same time to once again give the sence of polar oposite when in comparison with Kim. Kim was born to act good, in other words to save the world, but thanks both to his potential at building/mechanics/manual activities and at being evil Ron was born to enslave it/ dominate it/ build a doomsday device etc...

My question is if this if worth to be put in text, because this is an example that gives us information about Ron's "genetic"/original/true nature and that makes it is a very important trait/generalized characteristic of his.

Thorius Maximus 20:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, what? Could you explain why you think this? It sounds interesting, but... =CJK= 23:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I suggest you see the episode Bad Boy, it directly states that as it also is the main subject of the episode. I can also justify through character quotes:

Shego: Who knew the buffon was a natural!

Ron: Kim Possible!

Kim: Since when do use my last name?

Ron: Since I realized my full evil potential!

Kim: Ron, you've got to stop, evil isn't your thing, it's Drakken's thing!

Ron: BUT I'M SO MUCH BETTER AT IT! Did Drakken ever build a plasma blaster this dangerous!?

Kim: It's better if you're bad Drakken.

Drakken: Better?

Kim: Better than Ron being bad.

Drakken: So I'm better at being bad than your buddy?

Kim: No, but that's good!

Drakken: Sooo... bad's better if I'm bad?(lower evil potential)

Kim: Good, you got it!

You can't get more direct than this, after all this is the episode's theme. I find it irrational to refuse what can not be demonstrated more directly and also the reason itself for this e?pisode to even exist.

Thorius Maximus 00:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Just to remind everybody, in Bad Boy, it wasn't Ron's potential, it was Drakken's. The device split Drakken's naughty and nice sides, and gave Ron a does of the nasties.


 * perfectblue 08:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

You've got be kidding me PB97! This is just denial. This was Ron's potential and the ep made clear about it, as did the creators, in fact you don't even need the creators assurance about this, your statement is completely wihtout any fundament. By the way if that was Drakken's potential then why is there such a difference in being evil between Drakken and Ron? Also, there as never ANY statement(if fact all statements concerning the staff and the episode itself tell the oposite) that even suggested what you said, what you just said. You can not get more obvious than this and any children who sees the ep will get the exact same idea. This is like you once said in another topic, a chicken egg issue, not only that but it's a super chicken egg issue.

The device did not give a dose, it gave all of Drakken's evil which was by the way of very low quantity, yet despite Ron getting this low quantity of evil he still performed much more efficiently than Drakken. If Drakken ever wanted to build a plasma cannon(since you say he has the same potential) then why didn't he ever build one before? And why did Ron build one right at the first and in just a matter of hours? And why was shown through out the ENTIRE episode balant examples(you can't even get me balant than this), and should be character statements of surpirse which are some of the most direct proof you can be discarted? And even Shego's complain that Drakken wasn't competent as a villain and amazement towards that she welcomed Ron in order to plot against the world with her(although she would imediately after regret it because Ron would take control of things in a way Drakken never did and with such genius, yes genius both, in planing the entire operation and in building the devices, that Shego had even become useless for Ron as she had even been kept in the dark about his evil plan and Ron also imposed his authority on her, in the end she had become irrelevant in his plan. Ron also captured Kim and balantly allowed her to escape and turn off his first doomsday devide so that she would only find that Ron had been expecting it all the time and he had build another device that controlled the weather at a worldwide scale, this device is something in a magnitude that no other villain had ever made.

One more thing, evil is NOT potential, it's one's potential that makes him/her react more intensely and better with evil and it's that person's intelligence and talents that makes he/she be able to come up with a complex "conquer the world plan" and the ability to build more easily, more efficiently and much more quickly the gadgets and the doomssay devices, this is exactly what the episode directly says about Ron. In Ron's case, he always had the evil potential and the abilities as even shown in other episodes such as Naked Genius despite the always present comical element. The evil only gave Ron the determination and the mentality to act evil, but the skills, the several talents and the peformance are all reflections of his natural ability an ability which is balantly shown and said in the episode to be something wthat he was born with and was born to have been and also an, even in ASiT we see some clues of this. Do not forget the irony issue because this is seomthing always present between Ron and Kim. Kim does not excel in fields in which Ron is a natural, Ron doesn't excel in the things Kim does because he does have the confidence, the concentration and the will and also in some cases he does not have the same ability Kim has in that field, once again this is the exact same situation, while Ron has been acting under the forces of good, he was however born to act evil and along with his talents at mechanics, manual activities and building, he could have become one of the most dangerous villains in the Kim Possible universe.

Your statemnet is completely biased and without any proof. You are dennying the basic idea of the ep and any child after seeing the ep would have agreed to this. We here try to give a balanced description(and completely cannon) about Ron, we show both his worst traits and his best. But one thing that is to be completely avoided, is a biased opinion. And we constantly correct whatever it is necessary in order to give the most accurate description of Ron even in substituting a single word that may even change a meaning of the entire phrase from "may" to "absotule".

Do you have any problems in accepting any rightfully(and obvious in all occasions) any kind of special trait that Ron has, it's that  the Kim page practically only has positive traits about Kim and no (obvious) negative ones. And each time I try to put an obvious negative trait which is a basic flaw in her personality why do I get my statement always deleted? What you're doing is information manipulation, and this is a very negative aspect that should not exist in Wikipedia, we are to write the obvious and other factor that are checked for certain, not opinions that are completely without and fundament and are biased at the same time.

When someone has doubts about whatever I would write I start analysing what that person said to see if there is a flaw, or not, if there isn't I will not dare change anything because that would be manipulation. And this as been dome countless times in the Ron page. If there is any kind of violation concerning the wikipedia law then I(just like any other member has to) fully accept the imediate necessary changes, however if you are looking for any kind of violation saying that this page is biased or an opinion, you find you are wrong because I and other people have directly transcripted the info from the series giving this page a cannon, direct, and faithfull meaning to what the series have shown us. Every single statement about Ron's talents or traits or abilities or skills are directly taken form the ep itself since it is inquestionable. You will also notice we have not been biased concerning Ron's description as a quarter to a third of the entire page is about Ron's flaws only.

And note one more thing PB97, it's that I have written this section in order to ask if it's worth it to write this part of Ron's traits in the page. If people have doubt I try to give the general and obvious proof about this ep, which is have I have just done.

Remember, super chicken egg issue.

Thorius Maximus 16:07, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

<<>> "as did the creators"

There is a rule on Wikipedia called WP:V, although it isn't enforceable a talk pages, it is common courtesy to apply it. If you have something from the guy's who wrote the episode saying that Ron is a true bad boy, please include it. If you have a WP:V source that says in plain language that the script writers intended it to be so, I'd accept it (for example, an interview where script writer X says "we always intended for Ron to have a dark side").

As far as I am concerned Drakken stuck a device on his head that removed all of his nasties traits. An accident then lead to these traits being transfered to Ron. The reason why he was more effective as a bad guy than Drakken was that Ron had both his normal human nastiness, which everybody has, plus Drakken's vilenous nastiness. Hence he had more total badness than Drakken had (Drakken's plus his own normal nastiness). It was inconsistent with other episodes and therefor should be considered a plot device applicable to the specific situation of that episode.

"If Drakken ever wanted to build a plasma cannon then why didn't he ever build one before?"

Drakken's used giant robots, miniature robots, mind control (3 times), a weather machine, clones, molecular muscle enhancers, a genomic sequencer, a tricked out cyber robotic SUV, a shrink ray, a time traveling statue, an embarrassment drug, a doomsday laser, an electrostatic collector, a truth ray, and a hunky synthodrone. There simply aren't enough episodes for him to do everything.

"Every single statement about Ron's talents or traits or abilities or skills are directly taken form the ep itself since it is inquestionable"

As above, Ron is a recurring character. Something is only unquestionable as part of his character if it is also recurring (such as his fear of monkeys, or his happy go lucky nature). I suggest that you read Guide to writing better articles and Manual of Style (writing about fiction).

"And each time I try to put an obvious negative trait which is a basic flaw in her personality why do I get my statement always deleted?"

1) You tend to read too much into things (such as as gags or one off plot devices) 2) You tend to take out of character moments and state that they are in character 3) You have an accusation style of writing that comes across more abrupt than I think you mean to be (Wikipedia manual of style require a neutral tone) 4) I often don't deleted them, I just move them to a more appropriate place to keep everything that is related together (for example, moving something related to Ron into a paragraph that also speaks about Ron). Your points are still there, just in a different place.

For example, if Bonnie pets a dog in one episode, it's not enough to say that she is an animal lover for that you would need A) an explicit statement that she is an animal lover B) several more instances of her being nice to animals.

In order to say that Ron had a dark side, it would need to be demonstrated consistently, not in one episode where he acts like a jerk but doesn't actually hurt anybody, and one episode when his badness factor is artificially increased. Has he expressed a desire for revenge before? does he deliberately hurt others or make fun of them? Does he show signs of an inferiority complex or megalomania? Has he actually done anything really bad without first being effected by some weird device?

perfectblue 17:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Maybe thorius has a point: Ron's evil (unknown) + Drakken's evil (playground bully) = most competent and diabolical KP villain ever? Someone who can frighten and outmaneuver Shego? something's not quite right. =CJK= 18:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

1: You're the one reading too much into things, of this is the main idea that the ep present them you're just dennying.

2: You're are really reading too much into things, you need to focus on the ep.

3:"Drakken's used giant robots, miniature robots, mind control (3 times), a weather machine, clones, molecular muscle enhancers, a genomic sequencer, a tricked out cyber robotic SUV, a shrink ray, a time traveling statue, an embarrassment drug, a doomsday laser, an electrostatic collector, a truth ray, and a hunky synthodrone. There simply aren't enough episodes for him to do everything."

And you are forgetting that Shego complains that these inventions normally fail, they have lots of bugs and you are forgetting that a lot of scennes when Drakken builds something we see him with technical problems, not to mention that even his colleges even complained to him saying the couldn't even build a thing propperly done. His plans aren't efficient, when Ron reached Drakken's lair he said he had found lots of "unfixed" "inefficient" things, he even joked about him saying he was dumbenough not to even understand the functioning of simple device. Third, Drakken takes too long to build something, and his inventions aren't effective, just take a look at his atmostheric disruptor, it nor was very efficient or was even working properly.

Once again I say, you're the one in denial, the series very frequntly shows that Drakken's invention do fail a lot, and Sheog has said this countless times, second Drakken is also told by former colleges he isn't very good, we even have that examples of college although later he was successeful in building the bebes but they had serious programing errors, heck even his former colleges again joked with him complaining about the undecent programing. Along the series we see this again and again and unfortunately your examples do not means anything because you are mentioning their rela efficiency and problems. Heck once again I say even Drakken didn't have the intelligence the build the destructo robots and once again he was joked by the guys who realy built the destructo robots. We do see Drakken succeed in things but these aren't great achievements, and the general(and only voice of the series) is taht he ISN'T good at what he does. And do not forget that there have been countless times when he either copied, stole other people's work and the easy part was the only one left, he forced people to build for him, and every time it is said by any character at he is NOT good at what he does. Drakken took Dr.P's work and simply did the easy part, Drakken used the idea for the diablo's, so even the basic strutural design of the robots along with the technology wasn't his, Drakken does this a lot in the series, once again showing his lack of ability. It is even once again demonstrated in Bad Boy that Ron had to improve his some of his failed inventions, showing that Drakken constantly produces failed inventions. The clones were inefective, they had major problems, the weather machine wasn't effective has shown in the beginnig of the ep(I wonder why Shego constantly complains about Drakken inability with inventions), the SUV was built with his brother's help which by the way that episode is excellent because it showed first hadn in a direct example that Drakken's skills with mechanics aren't good,

I can even had more thing to the list, Drakken takes to long to build the bigger "guns", normally several days and these normally turn out every inefficient, and these inventions are only once per ep. Compare with Ron: He build from scratch an ATV plasma cannoat the first time and without any bugs) second Drakken stated he did not in shame did once again shows he did not have the skill to do it, Ron improved several of Drakken's inventions and build from scratch a mega weather generator, something which is countless times more efficient and Drakken's atmospheric disruptor(which by the way wasn't working properly), and he did these last in just one hour or so. Ron's plan was also much more effective than Drakken's to a point at he was able to show his authority and also make Kim realize he was playing with her all along as he even let her escape to shut down his first doomsday device, the Tempus Simia(time monkey) was an artifact. Concerning the embarasment drug he only had an easy things to do because he said the drug itself was practically a product of the flower pollen, this does indicate Drakken doesn't always fail, but this is a most simple plan when compared to the truly large failed inventions he did, and once again I say through out the entire series it is constantly said by every character and countless examples that Drakken isn't good at what he does, this is shown in very simple and direct examples, and did I mention frequent? Drakken stole the molecular enhancent ring from henchco. Drakken stole the Electrostatic collector.

"we always intended for Ron to have a dark side" I will try to get one, but, as I said before, this is secondary, the episode gives as the main idea the concept that Ron was born to be evil. Pay attention to this, this will only happen once, and it will be only in that ep, not in any other ep, this ep has the purpose to give to give both the feeling of surprise but at the same time of irony.

Although you are true concerning the fact that a scripter quote would give further emphasis, you are also possibly taking refuge in that fact. It's not obligatory to put this and at the same if the info present is clear enough about it them it is to be accepted, or do we here in wikipedia have to start asking everything to every single conrrespondent creator? The ep makes more than clear Ron is much better than Drakken throught all sorts of direct proofs just as clearly if not even more directly thatn the examples or Bueno Nacho, Two to Tutor etc... These ep are also unique situations, yet they are not rejected as by possibly being "irrelevant" or a joke. This situation is unique in the entire series of course thus it would be under the same definiton of "character momentum" but it is not as this is a crucial part of Ron's talents list. This will only appear once in the series because of what they can put in a short time moment and also because repetitionwould lead to this expeciffic occasion to lose it's "beauty and uniqueness". A character momentum is for instance when Kim throwed Shego into the tower, according to real world physics this is impossible, but at the same time the character does not have enhanced strength, this is a momentum. However an entire episode which focusses on one subject in not a momentum, but it shows one of Ron's many characteristics and talent. Through out a serie the espectator gets to discover new characteristics, talents and traits of each character.

And ocne I say you do not need the creators support to this because if more than direct indications and statements through every character are made them it extremely obvious and direct.

I'm sorry but I can't find a more chicken egg issue, this is the theme of an episode and it's stated more than clearly.

This section is to ask anyone who is involved in the Ron page to give their opinions if this should be put or not, NOT to denny a thing which is clearly stated in the series alhough showed once, just as many other of Ron's talents, traits and even the same with Kim.

Thorius Maximus 18:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

<<>> It is in fact unkown how much evil Ron has, however, two things are certain and obvious:

1: Every person has evil. 2: Ron's evil is at a very low level.

The usual person would have a low level of evil, take for instance Kim. However through Ron's behaviour which is of toletance, kindness, although he has lots of fobias he is calm, yet he is excentric and obsessive with some things, although not in a negative way. It was also directly stated concerning Ron in Exchange that his heart was pure, the quote was this one: "As long as your heart remains pure, the blade will always know it's way home". This may or may not indicate Ron indeed has a pure heart but at least we can say that there is very little evil in Ron's soul.

Independently of one's evil, we have the potential issue. As said before with Ron we have an irony situation, and note the episode it not a joke itself although all KP episodes are comical. If Ron has a great evil potential, then he should be very good at being evil, that it, if there is enough evil in his soul. Please take notice that there isn't much evil in Drakken however this does not mean anything about the good energies, Drakken mostly likely has a low level of bad energies but also bad of good energies. However, in Ron's case we have a different situation, it's the good who his overwhelming the bad energies. Even with Drakken's little emount of bad energies it would not make much difference, however due to his potential the effects are much more intense than they should be. If Drakken had Ron's bad energies along with his own then he wouldn't be as good as Ron.

By the way, the idea that the episode gives is that good people like Ron, don't act evil because they do not have "evil". However, give them "evil" and the effects can varry accoring to one's potential. In Ron's case, since he had the exact amount of evil than Drakken then if he acted better them it is because of potential issues.

I understand the reason behind the only one time reason, however with Ron's talents and skills and also concerning otehr characters, these characteristics only appear once, max twice in the series. The reason why this doesn't happens more frequently is because the series are short in terms of what can we put in 65 or 87 episodes. With Ron's evil potential case, yes it does appear once "balantly" although if I want to go a little deeper, you will see that in The New Ron it gives related clues, for instance how did Ron give the Seniors a mental blueprint for their lair to be effective. Or in ASiT where it is shown Ron's manneirisms and intelligence are quite abnormal. However we can't use his. The reason why Ron doesn't show any evil traits it's because he simply is not evil nor has any evil influences, this is course doesn't say a thing concerning if he hsa or not evil potential because he not under the influence of any evil energies. Yet one strong example is enough to proof it, especially if this is a direct example.

A cartoon can be caotic, in the beginning of the ep it said Drakken wasn't good at being evil because his evil level was low(maybe it is related to potential) and of course in several other episodes it was said he was not a good scientist(this also tells us that to excel at being evil you must also have an extrememly high intelligence), but later in the ep it is only stated the potential issue. I go with the potential issue since the ep makes it clear that it was potential that made Ron what he did, and the ep also directly gives the image that good people like Ron and Kim do not have evil, bad people like Shego and Drakken have evil. If you give evil to someone, he will act evil, however the ep them makes clear that Ron is much better than Drakken in being evil solely because he is a natural in having evil in his soul(I'm not talking about the building issue because this is another thing). The ep makes it clear on this and quotes only give more emphasis:

Ron: I'm soo much better at being evil.

Shego: Who knew the buffon was a natural.

Kim: It's better if you're bad.

Drakken: Better?

Kim: Better than Ron being bad.

Shego also said at the beginning of the episode: "Did ever think maybe your best just isn't good enough." This of course refers to one's potential at being evil.

Please also notice that the episode does not mention anything about adding moe evil to one's already existing evil, this is, if anything you're statement is nothing more than speculation, since the episode only strongly shows and indicates the potential issue, if this is what the episode wanted to show, them it is indeed only a matter of potential. These things should not be complicated concerning cartoons because if an ep wants to focus on this subject and examplain the subject under a certain way them the subject exists. In Ron's csae what you have is complete ignorance concerning what would happen if he was evil, and the result is that he has potential. If you want a perfect example of it then just look at Kim, her example is impracticable in the real world, but if a cartoon says she can do lots of things, then she can do lots of things(not all) and you don't question this.

Rest assured that I do understand your reasons in terms of "why put" in the article, however I do think the episode is clear enough, even if it just one time that Ron balantly shows to have this potential. Thorius Maximus 19:41, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * 1) Ron appeared in over 50 episodes and half a dozen games. Franchise cannon shows that he is good at heart, and a bumbler who shows the occasional sign of genius/skill. This is his persona, not what was shown in 1 episode while he was under the influence of a foreign contaminate.


 * 2) Kim has all of the same skills as Shego + a few more. Therefore under your logic she has a higher bad guy potential than Ron.


 * 3) Drakken's character is purposefully written to be bumbling. Plus Shego is written to be sarcastic. He could come up with even the simplest plan, it would still fall apart and Shego would still criticize it for being too complex. It's a standard element.


 * perfectblue 09:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

":1) Ron appeared in over 50 episodes and half a dozen games. Franchise cannon shows that he is good at heart, and a bumbler who shows the occasional sign of genius/skill. This is his persona, not what was shown in 1 episode while he was under the influence of a foreign contaminate."

Short generalized descriptions are what a Franchise does, but Franchihse never tells all about the character once again I say I find very hard for an episode such as Bad Boy which gives it's logic directly is simply a character momentum, because this is a too violent constrast with the normal Ron, in otehr words, if your want to apply the rules of te character momentum, it would become irrational, and as I said before the episode does not gives uncertainties about why Ron is better than Drakken, on the contraire it gives justificiations. Please have in mind that a Franchise only says the characters main(common) characteristics, those that appear through out the show without much interruption, after all it is a very short sumary. Everyone knows the sumaries given by franchises aren't minimably viable if you want to get more especiffic knowledge about the character. What the epsiode Bad Boy is, is that it shows a especiffic characteristic of Ron, one that only appear in one ep because there where conditions for it to appear, yet it does not happpen in any other because there weren't conditions for it to happen, simply he didn't have the vil, which changes his behaviour and as a consequence shows to any spectator his potential to be evil.

I agree with some things in the first sentence and there is also another way to justify things concerning Ron being better than Drakken while being evil, please have in mind that the following explanation is going beyond what the series tells us directly, so in your words it would be going deeper: Since Ron shows occasions of great takent/potential and/or genius(please have in mind that they are meerly occasional because he is a back laid person, lazy, distracted etc...) with mechanics/any manucal activity/and invention building this could justify why Ron built devices much more easily and faster than Drakken. Under this logic it does make sence your second sentence about Kimbut only concerning Shego remember that she only shares Shego's abilities but is better on some of them(yet she does not have the plasma ability) but not any of Ron's talents, for so far the show has only shown us that Kim does not excel with mechanics(Motor Ed, Car Alarm, and especially the episode Job Unfair), so the correct sentence for your second one would be: Kim has all of the same skills as Shego + a few more. Therefore under your logic she has a higher bad guy potential than Shego.

Kim has her abilities, Ron has his abilities, which means that Kim would thrive as a villain but as a fighting villain, Ron on the other hand would thrive as villain that builds crasy doomsday devices and in coming up with crazy plans. Once again note that your logic is correct, but it's the same as mine. If you are referering to the bully level of evil energies than remember hat this has nothing to do with potential, in other words, if Kim had the evil in max along with her abilities, then she would be very good at what she does, yet if Ron also had the evil at max then he would be much better than Drakken(even if Drakken had the evil in max level to), once again remember that the previous sentence is about the logic of the talents of each character(not the potential logic).

":2) Kim has all of the same skills as Shego + a few more. Therefore under your logic she has a higher bad guy potential than Ron."

Concerning this sentence take note that I had two logics in my previous statements and they were seperated(if not I'm sorry). One logic is the episode's direct logic, that Ron was born to have been evil and that has a high evil potential, it's the logic the show gives us, although flawed because this is a kid's show and so logics in here are meant to be very simple and direct and not to analysed much because if they are analysed even throught the most simple of realistic analysis they are very usually flawed. The second logic, the one that's more realistic and complicated is the one mentioned in my first 2 pharagraphs. And once again I say in this phrase you must mean Shego. Because the second, more complex logic is all about talents, one's justification to be good at 1 or 2 especiffic activities is because of the character talents.

":3) Drakken's character is purposefully written to be bumbling. Plus Shego is written to be sarcastic. He could come up with even the simplest plan, it would still fall apart and Shego would still criticize it for being too complex. It's a standard element."

This is meerly your opinion. The general idea the series gives us is that Drakken is usually incompetent. No doubt that when this happens there it is under the comical environment, yet it still continues to be present even without the usual comical emphasis because this is a characteristics of his, when this characteristic of his is shown of critisised is indeed shown under a comical atmosphere, but it stated clear as a characteristic of his otherwise to tihnk that his failed inventions and evil plans to some extent are simply because of the creation of a comical environment, them this is completely irrational. The show Kim Possible is a kid's show, and as a kid's show its onjective is to put as much situations as possible under a comical environment, but only those situations that are appropriate to be put under a comical environment, Drakken failed inventions are a prime example of this as they are golden opportunities, take note that even with evil Ron they did this constantly because it was the perfect opportunity.

Thorius Maximus 15:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I just came from my abnormal psych class, and the debates in there are very similar to the debates on Ron and Kim (for example, debating about whether a person who never bathes is demented is very similar to this debate about whether Ron is evil).

Could it just be that, Ron has so much good in him that it overshadows the evil he has? The episode's equation could go like this: (ALGEBRA FUN!!!) 1. Ron = Ron's E(vil) + Ron's G(ood) 2. Ron's E in Bad Boy = Ron's normal E + Drakken's E 3. Ron's E > Shego's E 4. Ron's E > Drakken's E 5. Ron's E = Ron - Ron's G therefore, 6. Ron's G > Ron's E which means that, 7. Ron's G is really really G if it can overpower that kind of E.

Did you catch all that? Good, cuz I'm not repeating it. :) I think that stuff made sense... =CJK= 17:04, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

<<>> Yes it makes sence. Ron's G does greatly overpower his E, this is reflected by his very inocent and at the same time very tolerant and passive behaviour. For instance, is Ron's opinion is strongly discarted, he will not get angry or displeased with it, in fact he has shown time and time again to simply take a refuge attitude in the sence that that he will literaly say(and he does say) "Oh man!" instead of trying to valorise/defend his own opinion, this realy shows how passively the reacts, as he does not argue, he complains, yet a passive complain along with this also goes his easy-going, cheerful, and kind-hearted behaviour, and that he does seen to have very little evil in his soul. Even in more agressive situations he still openly says that he will not fight or for instance in Yamanuchi when Fukushima disrespected him he said he was all "peace and love" with the situation. Ron's evil level seems to be almost inexistant and at the same time he has an enourmous amount of good energies.

Yet, one question remains, how was he much better than Drakken at building doomsday devices and other stuff? There are two answers, one simple(compatible with the show's simplicity) and one realistic.

The simply one is the potential issue.

The realistic one is his real intelligence, and I think you all know his occasional sparks of extremely high intelligence. What made him extremely intelligent when evil was because of the evil itself. The evil gave him the conviction and will to make an effort in using whatever capabilities he had "to do bad things", evil things as you may call them.

Thorius Maximus 22:35, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

But maybe it's just a paradox, because, unless my little equations were totally wrong, he actually HAS evil in him along with alot of good... This "potentially evil" thing is weird, and you don't actually define what it means. I mean, it makes sense in a way, but how are you going to explain it on the page itself without going too much into weird theories? do the following for us, Thorius: I kind of understood his "evil" thing until you brought up some good points against your own theory-- I forgot about sensei telling him he's pure of heart and all that... Maybe bad boy is a mistake by the creators?
 * define evil potential in a sentence
 * list the episodes you're going to use
 * tell us how bad boy isn't a paradox SUCCINCTLY: without too much theory.

=CJK= 01:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I stand by my points above. Ron is consistently good for the entire franchise, except for one episode in which he is effected by an outside source of badness.

I also stand by my point that Drakken is a comic villain, therefore he will always fail, no matter how much of a bad guy he is.

perfectblue 11:08, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

My statement in this is that the series does give us the indication that Ron has evil potential. What I did say before was that I couldm't define this "potential" why? Because despite being this what the series suggests us both through direct situations and quotes it is at the same a very flawed concept, this "evil potential" thing that the series gives us is a very simple logical demonstration which is extremely flawed becuse of the series simplicity concerning these situations, this happens all over the series, if you ask me to define this evil potential, then I cannot, however I am just following directly what the series gives for one episode, which is the only episode that shows this trait Ron has, why? Because the evil made it possible for him to use this trait. At the same this situation is ironic and the episode does tell us this especially through character quotes, because this is one of Ron's traits however he is not using it because he is on the good side, and that in the entire series he is one of the most "pure hearted" characters to such a way that this "goodness" he has is one of his main traits in the entire series, indeed if you want a generalized description of Ron, then you will have him as a goody goody shoes, however this episode reveals to us one of his most unique traits and ironic at the same time.

If you guys want me to describe what is this "evil potential" I can't, this "evil potential" issue is just the logic that the series gives us, this is not "reflected" much by the creators, it is just a very simple(and very flawed) logic, I am just using the direct logic given by the episode, however if I want to explain things a little more realistically them all this is extremely flawed and I must use another argument, the intelligence argument.

My point concerning Drakken is also clear, he is a comical villain, but it has also been cleared in the series that he isn't very competent and good at what he does when in comparision with other villain and especially evil Ron. In many cases Drakken does try to act as a "rebelious misunderstood by all character".

Thorius Maximus 15:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Have to agree with Thorius on this, the Attitudinator didn't give Ron Drakken's potential or intelligence, just his evil, Ron has shown in other episodes similar levels of intelligence, just with a lack of focus, its likely that the addition of Drakken's evil created gave Ron the focus that he lacks on a normal basis. It is clear that he in fact makes a better villain than sidekick, now whetehr this translates into him being born to be evil is another matter, which requires the belief in fate and whether one is born with a purpose or creates on for themselves


 * All that this shows is that Ron has "unused potential". If Ron were given Drakken's goodness, not his badness, he would probably have become a Kim class hero.


 * perfectblue 08:10, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Remember that Ron's good is higher than Drakken's, and Kim's reasons for being good at saving the world are only because of her speciffic skills. Ron has shown to be at the same level than Kim when he uses his own skills.

In the series it shows that Drakken already had evil when he was young, remember the small lazers and stuff and Drakken had said he was "a little evil genius". This example shows that Drakken may have been born to have become evil, and had a higher intelligence.

Ron is no exception to the rule. If the showed to do all those things when evil and even when not evil(Naked Genius) then it would show at least Ron possesses a higher intelligence.

Your statement about being like Kim doesn't seem to make much sence because it's not good that makes someone equal to Kim, it's a matter of skill, and Ron has already shown to be as good as Kim because of his own skills. Kim's personality is indeed one of good heart, and she is good by nature, she helps people without asking nothing in return etc, but there's the skill issue in both good and evil. If Kim turned into a villain she would be like Shego. However since Ron is already good and we all know his behaviour, if he had more good in him(we aren't certain if he's pure of heart, but Exchange seems to indicate he's near that or even literally) then he wouldn't change much and in fact he would possibly become even more distracted or in "absolute" backlaid behaviour, the only reason why Ron showed those talents when evil, was because the evil makes someone get the focus and will to make an effort and use whatever talents he/she has, to do doing something bad.

Remember that Drakken did not have anytihng else than good in him, this would mean a pure heart literally, thus his behaviour is justified. By the way, when Drakken was good he also showed the same talents he had when evil(in other words he was a normal genius, or a good genius, just like Dr.P), this would mean that intelligence factor and evil factor are seperated, which means that if Ron was very good when building those doomsday devices and in being very efficient with his tactics then it's because of the intelligence factor.

Drakken's example that he was already evil when young could or could not tell us anything. He may have had no friends in his early life, he may have had been bulied, and thus evil grew in his heart from a very early age. In Ron's case, I think, I can say evil has made him use his intelligence, yet I'm cofused with that does these quotes mean?

Kim: Ron, evil isn't your thing, it's Drakken's thing!

Ron: But I'm so much better at it, did Drakken ever built a plasma baster this dangerous? (This would indicate intelligence factor)

-

Shego: Who knew the buffon was a natural? (this would then indicate there is the factor of being born to have been evil or in other words "evil potential")

-

Kim: It's better if you bad(Drakken).

Drakken: Better?

Kim: Better than Ron being bad.

These quotes are all confusing because some of them do seen to indicate an evil potential issue, along with intelligence, and this is the main idea of the episode. But I'm confused. Sometimes I think the intelligence factor and the fact that it's just one's life experiences that makes someone good or evil, would fit in perfectly.

Thorius Maximus 01:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that we should treat these people like real people: For example, nobody is BORN evil-- there's no "serial killer gene" (or "schizophrenia gene", or "bipolar gene", in my opinion). Even Drakken was given reasons for why he now has the evil of a playground bully: He was teased when he was little in school.

Ron probably could have become evil if Kim didn't accept him (a friendship can't survive that kind of awkwardness-- they would've had to stop hanging around each other; Maybe Ron would've become bitter and angry that he wouldn't have been good enough for her). But he, along with everybody else on Kim Possible, doesn't have evil potential born into him. It's a cool theory, though.

Here's a question: what would've made Ron evil when he was little? I gave my answer as to how he would've become evil when he was a teen above.

=CJK= 14:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm understand both points of view yet I don't know what point of view to take. By the way there is a phenomenon that makes someone be a serial killer, it's having an Y cromossome instead of an X. The usual male has: XXY. The more violent person would have XYY. But I think we can maybe ignore this since the series doesn't focus on this at all, the series has a cartoonish point of view of things.

By the way, in ASiT, Ron already had a somewhat unusual behaviour, he seemed to serious for his age and had a compreension of concepts too complex for his age as well as being very alert to the world around him(opposable thumbs in one's feet). This could be a clue that Ron's could have started to change for a more serious matter(and then later on evil, if he is socially expelled or bullied, etc...) because it would seem that he wasn't succeefull in making friends, and then as a consequence he may have began to see things more seriously or with less empaphy towards others, but this was just the first step, his behaviour was still that of a child although I think there were some indications he had started to become serious and be more "strict"(the rules and anarchy issue) before he had met Kim.

What it will be?

Cartoonish point of view: Evil potential, born to have been evil(remember that to be "good" like Kim it's a matter of being both good by nature and skills, and to be evil like Ron it's both a matter of intelligence and evil potential. This is the basic idea of this point of view).

Realistic point of view: Life experience makes someone good or evil, and that character uses it's talents/intelligence/skills in an evil or good way.

Should we go for voting? :P

Thorius Maximus 15:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

<<>> If you have an extra Y chromosome, you have Down's Syndrome, not "serial killer gene". The only thing that can do that is a nightmarish childhood (psychotic) / adolescence (sociopath).

KP may have a "cartoonish point of view", but it treats it's main characters realistically. I think if we went to voting, you would lose :P.

Ron's life experiences don't seem to be guided to evil, unless certain things happened. For example, I think he would become evil if: feel free to add to this list...
 * Kim cheated on him
 * Kim died

=CJK= 16:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Uh...Down syndrome is cause by the trisomy of chrmosome 21, not the sex chromosomes. Also, the extra Y syndrome does not actually cause aggressive behavior, only slight learning disabilities.  I know that's not really related to the discussion, but I'm a bio buff and I had to say something! ^_^ Anyways, I kind of afraid of joining this discussion, since I'm not too sure what to agree on.   Jumping cheese   Cont @ct 16:55, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * XXY is called Klinefelter's syndrome. It doesn't make people into crazed killers, it makes causes people to have a low intelligence and other learning related disabilities/difficulties.


 * perfectblue 11:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * An extra Y would mean XYY Syndrome, which was once thought to cause aggressive behavior, but all it does is decrease the IQ by 10 or something. Negligible learning disabilities.  Yay...the days in  9th grade bio...AP bio isn't as fun.  =(   Jumping cheese   Cont @ct 11:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

But even if we follow a realistic analysis that doesn't mean we can't escape a little from reality. For instance, it is told Drakken became evil because he was joked from his colleges, I know it's exagerating but that's what happened. In the real world, there aren't evil villains and such things, but in the series there is. So, if someone leads a life of not to many friends, constantly bullied, joked etc, then you end up like Drakken. Even the Bad Boy episode is analysed very realistically doesn't make any sence.

That's why if we use a realistic point of view, we can't be 100% faithful to to reality, we have to be flexible concerning certain things if not many, but the basic logics for analysis are made realistically, do you agree?

However, with Ron I'm now using a more realistic analysis. What I'm saying about Ron is that we wasn't evil or anything like that when was young, but right before he had met Kim, his behaviour was different from the other children, he was "strict", serious to some extent, but apart from that he behaved just like any other children. What I'm saying is that this is an indication that perhaps he never had any friend(and possibly also the cause for he creating an imaginary friend, Rufus), under the rules of the series, this could be the first step for him to become less and less friendly with people, and if Ron doesn't make friends at this age, then it's very likely he will not get friends at a later age, and as a consequence he would become a social outcast and possibly being bullied frequently. I'm not saying this makes someone evil, yes, you're right about it, yet under the laws of the series it is a necessary step towards it, for it would seen Drakken also passed through this.

If Kim died for instance, he would be getting revenge, or not, yet becoming evil is something I doubt, although Ron does react exagerately sometimes and the loss of someone so critical in his life such as Kim could create this.

If Kim cheated on him i don't think it would happen, although he would be severely depressed.

Thorius Maximus 17:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

So far, all we've proven is that Ron has a certain level potential that is sitting idle. Please remember, when righting this page we have to stick to the script and the script says unequivocally that Ron is good for 99% of the time, and is only bad during 1 episode when his own personality is supplemented by badness from an outside source. Thus we can say that Ron is naturally good, but was bad for the space of one episode in which he was hit by Drakken's badness, but nothing more.

perfectblue 11:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

What I thought the episode told us was that Ron was naturally evil. The irony is that he's good all the time.

And with Ron it's indeed difficult to come to a conclusion becase from his behaviour when good it we can see he's more good than any other "good" character, this could indicate good potential. Yet, just because he's good all the time that doesn't mean he isn't evil by nature, and what I've been focussing was that despite this phenomenon with Ron only occuring in one episode and with the meaning of the episode and quotes etc, it's would mean Ron was naturally evil, but due to the life he has he never went that road, and all thanks to Kim, that's why he good at the time.

I would also like to say that we must pay attention to important character details, even if they appear in just one ep, because many other of Ron's characteristics only appear in one ep.

Thorius Maximus 14:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

<<>>

Ron probably has more evil potential than Kim or Shego, maybe. Who's more evil: Empress Shego in ASIT or Zorpox? Who has more evil potential, Bonnie or Kim? Ron or Bonnie? I think Ron has one of the higher potentials to become a really good villain, but we should compare him to the other characters in the show.

Does that make sense? Instead of looking at him without the KP context or the complete opposite, we find a middle ground here. I think the evil potential might go like this (from least to most): -> Drakken, Kim, Shego, Bonnie, Ron ->

Jumping cheese- you should comment on this stuff, it's pretty fun.

=CJK= 16:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The idea the show gives is that a character either has good potential or bad potential. Yet, all this may or may not affect that character because it depends on what does that character have. Kim does not have an high or even medium evil potential because her natural behaviour is that of good, and this is seen in ASiT. If she turned evil then depends on how much evil she would have and her skills, and her skills makes her almost a copy of Shego.

Take Ron's example, he doesn't have almost no evil evil at all, in fact, he is the character who is most close to the state of "pure heart", yet when he gains evil, we then see this potential.

Remember people, Shegp doesn't have more evil potential than Drakken, that the ep does not tell, what it tells is that Shego has more evil than Drakken. Second, to the or not to be a good villain or hero, it's not a matter of evil or good, it's a matter of talents/skills etc. What this evil potential and good potential affects, is meerely the character afinity to acting good or acting evil. If someone has a really high evil potential, then that someone has an evil nature that he has since birth.

Thorius Maximus 17:31, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so evil potential is the maximum amount of evil they could have, uh, under certain conditions. Evil is the amount they currently have, so let's not get confused here.

What things does a character have to have to have evil potential? Evil potential = skill set + mentality for evil? =CJK= 02:58, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I will try to put a realistic point of view, but at the same time faithfull to the series:

In the villain fair it was said Drakken evil potenital was low, and Shego's was high. This is partially because of a joke, and as a consequence it may remove some "logical coherence" to this, yet I will try to ignore the joke.

Why does Drakken want to use the attitudinator? Because he wants to be more ruthless, act more despicably etc, etc, in other words, it's only the behaviour part, not the skills/intelligence/talents part. Why does Shego have an evil level greater than Drakken? In part it's a joke, yet it may explain in part why she's more effective in "going trait to the point" in evil plans. Take for instance that giant laser scenne in Ron Millionare, Shego didn't hesitate and used the laser, Drakken was ritualistic and even sometimes the easy ways out are dsicarted by him because he thinks it's inappropriate and "not villain like", latter on it is shown in the villain fair he has a low evil level, this may partially justify.

Why does Shego have an evil level greater than Drakken? Just because she has, this doesn't mean anything, but I suspect her evil potential could be higher than Drakken's, but not that much high. Remember, Shego has shown to be quite human concerning many subjects, subjects that Drakken doesn't even reflect to be completely inappropriate, "even for a villain", in Shego's own words. Her higher evil level does justify why Shego is more "direct to the point" and agressive when she fights Kim, but it doesn't say anything concerning evil potential. Sor far the idea that evil potential allows more evil to exist in the user seems to be wrong and I agree with this. The justification for Shego's higher evil level would be that Shego simply gained more evil, and just like Shego, Drakken also shows much more frequently to act human willingly and even by preference(not jokes), this would tell us that in fact Drakken's evil potential would be low and that he may even have a high good potenital.

This logic I told just now, which is what the series seems to give, is that if someone has an high evil potential, then it has a low good potential in most cases. This is Kim's case probably, as she was born to do good things. With Ron this is a complicated case. When good, Ron seems to act more good than anyone else, yet his evil potential is very high. One thing we can say about for certain is that his evil level is extremely low, almost inexistant, and as it had been stated by Sensei "as long as your heart remains pure the blade will always know how to return home", on a literal level it would tell us Ron's heart is evil free, yet I think the more probable thing would be that his evil is almost inexistant.

Is Ron evil potential high? My answer? Yes. A good description of what evil potential is would be by "better using evil", in other words your behaviour is more "evil efficient". What I mean is that you act more evil, you don't show mercy, you don't show any human concern, you go strait to the point in evil plans, you don't care about formalities, you attack the good guys without any humanity etc. It is my opinion that Ron evil is in such a way low or perhaps inexistant that this evil influence would be insignificant, that means that Ron practically is just using Drakken's evil. With that same amount of evil he acted much more "bad" than Drakken, just look at his behaviour and compare it with Drakken.

Is Ron's good potential high? I have a theory: According to Drakken's behaviour it would seem that if someone acts childishly, blind to the world, goofy, naive, etc, those would seem to be qualities that come from the high good potential, however, these qualities could simply appear because of life experience and things that affect your behaviour in life.

Think of evil potential(the idea given in the series) like the efficiency level or an amplification factor of the evil you already have. Note that if you have almost inexistant evil, like Ron, then this potenital of yours is useless, because it isn't "active".

If Ron's evil potential is high and his good potential is low then why doesn't he show some signs of evil when good?: He doesn't because the evil in him is in such a way low that is doesn't affect his behaviour. If you look at Drakken's behaviour when good, his behaviour was completely good as he didn't have any evil. Ron's evil is almost inexistant, and he acts very much like Drakken acted when he was good, which would mean that he may have a very low amount of evil. I say this IF the series even get this deep, because it would seen that the series simply gave us the idea that when good, Drakken was simply good, and no complications.

Remember, since this is a cartoon many details can be flawed, like for instance this one about Drakken being good and Ron being good. The cartoon simply ignored this and focusses on the single ep, in this case Bad Boy. If the eps says so, then it is, and we ignore the rest. Normally carttons don't think most things beyond the concerning eps themselves.

Does evil potential have anything to do with intelligence/skills/talents? NO. If Kim turned evil, then she would be a copy of Shego. Why does Ron build things more easily than Drakken? Because of intelligence and talents. Evil does not affect intelligence/skill/talents, only the "ruthness" and way of acting evil.

Evil potential may also affect a character's affinity to evil, in other words, if a character lives a life since birth then that character would most likely become evil because it would be a natural behaviour for that character. Note that character with evil potential may also have evil in them from birth. Drakken's behaviour when young may indicate this, yet about his evil potenital it is said to be low.

A realistic approach to this would be by simply saying a character is good or not at being evil because of intelligence/talents/skills and every character has the same evil potential, although the amount of evil is something that changes from character to character. Good and evil affect the character at the same time. If a character wants to get rid of the good energies and just be affected by his evil part, in other words be purely evil, then he can, yet what he can and cannot do is still limited by his talents/skills/intelligence.

Actually I do like this realistic point of view, it fits the series in most of things, and remember that the series have many times things that contradict themselves partially of completely so those I sometimes preffer to ignore.

What if we go with this last point of view?

Thorius Maximus 00:51, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * We've all seen that Ron has clear untapped potential, agreed? (just look at "Sick day", when he action sported his way into Drakken's lair with only a single trademark goof). I think that Drakken's bad side simply gave Ron the focus that he needed to use his untapped potential.


 * If things had gone the other way (Ron had recieved Drakken's goodness, Drakken kept his badness), I think that we would have seen Ron becoming a high quality hero, and Drakken becoming a truly effective super villain. It's all very cliche.


 * perfectblue 07:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to clear some doubts about your coment, you don't mind right? I suppose your coment is based on the more "realistic" perspective?

If Ron had Drakken's good instead of evil I don't we have any certainties of what may happen. If you take into account Ron's actual behaviour according the amount of good and bad he has, and then if you add even more good, wouldn't he his existing behaviour become more amplified? Besides mechanics/being evil etc, he does have other skills that have been usefull for him to save the world, yet if adding more good would only make him even more "Ron", than wouldn't be become even more backlaid, but at the same time also more tolerant, kind, goofy nature, etc? This would perhaps mean that the good wouldn't give him the will to act, although when Drakken was purely good, he was completely complacent and helped without hesitation, although he still, feared things(but in a much more inocent way), axiety, etc, this could give some reason for your argument, but in general terms I think the good would only worsen Ron situation despite bringing advantages in some things. The special thing about evil when comparing with good, it's because it gives will and interest to act.

Thorius Maximus 13:01, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think we can make any assumptions about what would happen if that Bad Boy scene was switched. Also, I don't like this talk about "cliches" and "it's only this episode so forget it". KP is a sophisticated show with a storyline that goes underneath the single episodes-- we shouldn't discount ANYTHING.

BTW, this conversation gives me a deeper appreciation of this cartoon, I think.

=CJK= 22:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Shego
Just to note. Ron and Shego were both raised in heroic environments where they were overshadowed by a high achieving partner (Kim/Hego), and where they were both exposed to villainy on a regular basis. Shego found the dark side to be more alluring and turned, yet Ron didn't.

perfectblue 07:48, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

But how come Ron so easily intimidated Shego? We can see clearly who was in control in that situation, right?

=CJK= 22:31, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, that one's obvious. Shego's used to being both the brawn and the brains. Suddenly she's faced with somebody with brains who nullified her powers. I think that you'd be intimidated in that situation too. Besides, you've skipped my point. Both Ron and Shego were raised in an environment with overachievers, heroics, and exposure to villainy of all sorts, yet Ron turned into a happy go lucky sidekick, and Shego turned into a sarcastic villain.

Ron had every opportunity to turn just like Shego, yet he didn't until an outside source interfered with him.

perfectblue 08:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Isn't that more of a reflection on Hego and Kim than Shego and Ron? Hego's arrogance brought about the change in Shego. Kim and Ron's relationship is different mainly because she wasn't related to Ron, and the fact that they had been friends for a long time, whereas in Shego's case that definitely wasn't true. There's way too many differences between Shego & Hego's relationship than Ron & Kim's to compare them. The theory that Ron has evil potential still holds.

=CJK= 18:46, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * While there are differences, there are an equal number of similarities. Please remember, this isn't real life, it's a scripted TV show.


 * Besides, everybody has the potential to go bad, it's a reaction to your environment, not a personality trait. Look at the number of cartoon where they have done a "what if X had never been born" episode, a time travel episode, or an alternative universe episode where they take a good character, change their upbringing, and make them bad. If Ron and Shego had each other's upbringings we'd probably see Kim and Shego being best friends (Kigo fans would just love that) and fighting Zorpox instead of Drakken. This doesn't mean that the "real" Ron has a hidden dark side, only that his alternative version had a different upbringing that caused him to become dark.


 * I stand by what I said earlier, in 70 episodes, + comics + cinimanga + games, Ron only ever shows a dark side once, and that was when somebody else's darkside was superimposed on him. The idea that Ron has "innate" bad potential just isn't supported by any other episode or in any other media that isn't a direct copy of that one episode.


 * perfectblue 11:58, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand both sides, but I myself an still confused about some issues.

Concerning Ron never becoming evil, that's simply because he hasn't lived in an environment that would make him create a darkside of himself or create anger etc, and this can possibly be thanked to Kim, I think it was her influence has a friend that may have very well been the number one factor in all this.

Concerning Ron having an evil potential, I do understand PB indications, yet I'm confused with the fact about the character quotes. Because since this is a cartoon, and sometimes the series an be annoyingly cartoonish without any kind of realistic justification. The quotes from the episode bad boy told us directly that "Ron's evil potential was greater that Drakken's" etc, here some examples:

"Ron, evil isn't you thing it's Drakken's thing"

"But I'm so much better at it, did Drakken ever build a Plasma Blaster this dangerous!?" and "I did not.."(said Drakken)

"Who knew the buffon was a natural!?"

Etc... you kind of understand my confusion right?

The other thing is that, if we go even for a minimaly realistic analysis, then we must discart the "evil potential" imediately and the only thing that matters is the intelligence factor.

Apart from all this I say, that just because one characteristic is mentioned is mentioned in one episode, that doesn't mean Ron doesn't possess this charcteristic. If that characteristic is balantly shown in the episode and quoted and described, then it is a trait that character has despite only being shown in one episode. I do agree with PB descripton that Ron IS good throughout the great majority of the series, with the exception of this episode, yet, this episode may have shown us a characteristic that was unknown to us before, but this characteristics will not take part in the any other future situation, however, it is still a characteristic of the character, although only briefly mentioned and put to use.

Do you guys get more or less my idea? :) This stuff is like a labyrinth, it's very hard to clearly define this, that is, if this stuff really has any realistic interpretation because we are using a realistic interpretation in the article. Thorius Maximus 15:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Chess club?
What am I hearing about Ron in the chess club, did I miss something? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.193.173.135 (talk) 16:53, 19 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Yeah, Ron said the chess club quote when he was at football practice for the first time.   Jumping cheese   Cont @ct 20:19, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Atention, corrections needed.
This article has gone under a complete transformation. While this transformation has indeed made the article more organized in certain aspects(although it was organized before), this came at the expense of the article now having severe inaccuracies, especially in the talents field. This new form of the article also undervalues the character's abilities by focussing them all in one very small and simplified section. The talent and skills are explained very vagely, and even in many examples are explained wrongly.

This article will not be modified to it's original state, yet corrections and adding more info to make it accurate concerning several aspects of the character is indeed needed.

Thorius Maximus 15:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Is the fact that Ron is a good cook, or that he "ruled an lanyard" during summer camp actually important? For example, he's done a dozen types of extreme sport, we don't need to name them all, he was trained to fight with a staff, but it only came up in the one episode and wasn't mentioned again. Things like the monkey powers and the Ron factor are important enough to warren tthier own sections, but not much else is.

Besides Ron is a sidekick, most of the deleted things go without saying and so don't need to be stated.

I would also like to mention that people tend not to read through long pages. You put more in and people read less.

perfectblue 17:11, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

No PerfectBlue. I'm sorry but:

1: You changed people's work that's been for about a year wihtout even asking.

2: Your opinion of Ron being just the sidekick it's meerely your opinion. May I remind you that the Kim page has the outmost complexity and now you're saying this about the Ron page?

3: Ron is one of the 2 main characters in the show.

4: If you want to delete all this stuff then a Ron article is a better as nothing. Almost all relevant info has been placed out. This means there is no relevant info for skills, talents, personality issues, crucial character trivia etc. Not to mention that if someone wan to have an accurate view of this character, he/she will not get it on this page. Detailed info is needed.

5: Wikipedia articles are supposed to be detailed and accurate. Your justification is nothing more than an excuse, if no one wants a detailed article then you can better as well deleted your section on personality because it's extremely detailed and long for a section.

6: Consider yourself lucky none of us didn't report your actions to an administrator.

7: You are literaly making other wikipedians work useless and you are monopolizing the entire effort.

8: The modifications will be made. The article(with the exception of the personality section) has dropped soo much on quality and accuracythat it is now of low quality not to mention poor.

Thorius Maximus 18:44, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

1) Cough .... Stagnation ..... Cough 2) "JUST" a sidekick? that's like saying that Dick Cheney is "JUST" the vice president of the worlds most powerful nation. 3) Ron has one of the longest character profiles anywhere on Wikipedia. I think that's testament enough to the importance that I put on him in the show. 4) Such as? 5) Wikipedia articles are supposed to be concise and accurate. Please read the essay Fancruft and the MOS section Manual of Style (writing about fiction). 6) For what? 7) Please read the page again. I included every significant part of it except for the list of the times that Ron saved Kim (they belong in the episode guides) and the crush's that occupied less than 1 minute of screen time 8) Please provide an example, there's about 5000 words there, and I have only so many hours in the day to write about a fictional character.

perfectblue 19:25, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Yup, that's the best answer you can get. And yes, one of the best character profiles when you focus just on personality. May I remind you that the definitions you put in Ron's contrast are by far the most inaccurate I've seen. Enhanced physical abilities as a title for topic concerning physical activity skills? It just shows how inaccurate your definitions are. Wikipedia article are supposed to be concise and accurate yet that does not have anything to do with lenght, may I also remind of the length of Kim's profile, with in fact was beyond that of the Ron profile and also it's detail? May I also remind you of your definitions which step away from the topic at hand and are irrelevant info by giving betail and points of view which are completely unecessary for the topic at hand. Under your justification then the article would be extremely inaccurate and non concise. Second, all definitions in the Ron are not theories or suppositions. In order for an article to have accuracy it must the detail and explicit in it's content, this is acurracy, not extreme simplication which by the way in your case is also wrongly explained. The present has a large number of definitions that are unaccurate and it's short content is worngly explained, not to mention the sub sections in the Kim page concernig the character's skills and nintelligence were the same than the Ron page, and unlike the Ron page, these two sections in the Kim page partially repeat themselves, whic means you need to cut a section at least. In short, the present page gives an inaccurate idea of the character Ron.

Ron's the character with the bigest profile? Here's an exmaple, and see the difference, and note that there are larger profiles and this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegeta

All this shows your analysis is unbalanced.

Yes, your action is worthy of complain. Modifications to any article must not reach the point of completely discarting and putting asside what other wikipedians have wrote previously. Once again Wikipedia doesn't support or want wikipedian to monopolize article edit. With one single post you have modified the entire page, although the personality section is indeed more accurate, this came at the expense of every other section in every way, detail, accuracy, even consistence. At least you could have writen in the discussion page a topic about any modification you would find necessary, yet you didn't, afraid no one would accept? We could very well have accepted this, with possibly one or another modification. Yet you didn't even take into consideration other wikipedians opinion, this shows how much you take into account other people's opinion. For instance, I tend to sometimes write a topic in the discussion page even sometimes for small detail. Under wikipedia behavioural conduct lines this is bad behaviour because it's lack of respect for other wikipedians edits

Once again remember, the shows name is Kim Possible, but there are two main characters, just because one is the sidekick that doens't mean a thing about the importance of the character. In fact this opinion of yours tell a lot. When we try to add an important flaw in Kim's page you regect it, under the excuse that it's character momentum, it isn't character momentum, but an important part of her personality. You also see many of Ron's skills as character momentum, thus not even worthy to edit, yet the same situation also happens with Kim's many skills, only in one episode are most of her abilities shown, by logic this is also character momentum, yet the detailed info, is in Kim page. Note that we have to put characters under the same rules and description rules are to be respected.

At least let me change one of the section tiles(which is inappropriate for a good section info focus) and organize the info and give the correct definitions as best as possible in the sections of the talents and other stuff without growing those sections much. Because many of your definitions are indeed incorrect, and the information management method is not the best, as there is info that can be simply replaced by more important one wihtout even expanding the article much or nothing at all.

Or is this too much to ask?

Thorius Maximus 00:42, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


 * hehehe...I like reading these strings. =)    Jumping cheese   Cont @ct 08:07, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

1) What, specifically, is inaccurate? 2) You're seriously comparing a page about Ron Stoppable to a page about Prince Vegita? Vegita comes from a franchise that has literally hundreds of episodes and Manga, has been running for 20 years, and has far more cannon background material available in the form of interviews from the creators and books detailing background details of the character. Comparing the two is like comparing Yin and Yang to Mickey Mouse. 3) There is a line between detail and cruft. 4) Be very careful not to confuse things that were included for comic value with things that are real, and beware of reading too much into little things. For example, nobody should look at Ron loosing his pants every other episode and then write 500 words on the phychological reasons why he doesn't wear a belt.

perfectblue 11:48, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Personality isn't dependent on story length. DBZ is an example of this. This is a relatively simple universe, personality issues are secondary, the main character differences is the fighting power. Most of what you see in the article is about what the character did in the eps, not about the character itself, this is only in one section. With Kim Possible is different, you have few eps but a lot very rich characters in terms personality complexity, this is one of the reasons why the characteristics only appear in one ep or another. DBZ in an example that lenght is independent from character detail. If a show has a lot of detail concerning character but it's a short one(example: Evangelion), then a lot of detail is needed to give an accurate view of the character. But this is just my opinion on the matter.

Indeed there are a lot of comical scennes concerning Ron and they don't count as characteristics, yet these situations are mostly concerning his "dimwhitness" and other situations that may make him look like an idiot. All because he's the comical relief.

Your restructurization was indeed well organized, yet there some mistakes concerning interpretations and some basic facts, this won't have anything to do with increasing the article of changing structure, it's just detail that's inaccurate. I won't change anything until I see some agreement because I want to avoid an edit conflict. If you disagree with this then that's fine by me, but it's my opinion that this article now has some accuracy mistakes. It's difficult to name or even describe then all here, so my answer is that you'll see what the mistakes were after you compare the two versions.

Do whatever you think is best.

Thorius Maximus 14:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

1) The point that I was making is that Prince Vegita's creators wrote their own character profiles and explained his motive "out of universe". Whereas most of what we have about Ron is "in universe".

This means that if you want to know what Vegita's favorite food is, you pick up issue number X, and look at the bit where the writer specifically tells the reader what he likes to eat in a Q&A. But if you want to know what Ron's favorite food is, you have to watch the episodes and see what he eats.

3)You keep mentioning these inaccuracies. A hint would be nice. A we talking cannon or interpretation? Which two versions? Do you have a sandbox?

perfectblue 15:48, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Concerning the inaccuracies, I'm talking about some interpreations of cannon issues that exist in the "Contrast" section and the "MMP" section and also the "Ron Factor" section but this last is just a simple phrase that needs to be changed, it's not concerning the non linear mathematical processes nor anything crucial. No sorry, I don't have a sandbox at this moment, but since the article was now shortened the content that needs to be put under the correct interpretation is just a few lines and one or another small phrase.

Thorius Maximus 22:26, 1 March 2007 (UTC)