Talk:Ronald Reagan and AIDS

Feedback from New Page Review process
I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Very nice page! Thank you for the great work :)

Broc (talk) 07:04, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

NFCC
Consider including this image as wp:NFCC (higher resolution versions are available via google images) (t &#183; c)  buidhe  03:42, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

William A. Percy source
Discussion on the William Percy source which was removed. I'm also a little unclear on this source, but I included it after I found it referenced throughout many pages on the topic including LGBT history in the United States and LGBT movements. It seems pretty clear based on the William A. Percy article that this was in fact his personal website. I'm fine with this source being gone, it's borderline IMO, but I wanted to start a discussion on it anyway in case it needs to be removed from other pages. I am fairly certain based on a little digging the passage originates from this text: https://www.routledge.com/Before-Stonewall-Activists-for-Gay-and-Lesbian-Rights-in-Historical-Context/Bullough/p/book/9781560231936 though I have thus far been unable to find a copy of the text. I think based on WP:SPS that as long as it is uncontroversial that this is in fact Percy's website, this should be a fine source as he was a respected subject matter expert. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 16:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Sources which say this is Percy's website: 1 2
 * The articles from the website also appear to have been used in published texts: 1 2 3 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 16:22, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If you can't access the text that the article is based on, I would say you shouldn't cite it—inaccessibility is an automatic wp:V failure. Also, you can't assume that another contributor didn't engage in close paraphrasing or failed verification issues. A lot of older websites are now permanently inaccessible even if archived on wayback because of Adobe Flash and other software deprecation. These sources have to be removed because they can no longer be verified by anyone, imv. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  19:13, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The passage I wrote in this article was based on the article as archived, here, not based on what other editors had written; so at the very least there's no game of telephone going on between multiple editors. If the article can be verified via archive, would you lean towards it being verifiable? IMO that's not really any different than anywhere else on Wikipedia where dead links are included as a source, but I'm open to other viewpoints here. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Scratch my previous reply, I found a book which discusses Percy's discussion on AIDS and the gay rights movement, which I will cite as a source instead. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 21:29, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I thought I couldn't see any text on the archive site, but if I copy and paste then I can get some text. That's not the same situation as having no way to verify the content. The new source you added is Cambridge scholars publishing, which is effectively a self-publishing outlet. I'm still not sure why it makes sense to highlight Percy's opinion or elevate this fringy website, which if Wikipedia is correct, was established "to publicize those who don’t demonize 'the Eight P’s': promiscuity, public sex, pederasty, pornography, prostitution, paraphernalia, poètes maudits, and “planters” (dead males who made Western Civilization and most others)" It would be better to look for scholarly sources about the hiv-related gay rights movement under Reagan (t &#183; c)  buidhe  23:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
 * What's the source for the "Eight P's" claim? I'm a little confused which website that's referring to, but that's definitely a weird thing to publicize if true. Like I said, I'm not particularly attached to this source or anything but William A. Percy was a notable scholar in the LGBT history field, and IMO I can't really see a reason to throw out his work entirely. Might be better at this point to replace the book with a direct link to the piece though, Cambridge scholars seems sketchy af. Okay I did some more digging Percy definitely advocated for pederasty which is also NOT what I thought it was, I'm just going to go ahead and delete the source. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 00:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Proposed title change
It has been proposed at the DYK talk section on this article that the title of this article be changed, possibly to "Response of the Ronald Reagan administration to HIV/AIDS". Tagging people involved in that discussion @Bruxton, @AirshipJungleman29, @Andrew Davidson, as well as  who has contributed to this article. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 19:22, 10 May 2024 (UTC)


 * No objection here (t &#183; c)  buidhe  19:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)


 * That's an improvement but perhaps we should consider following the format of existing pages which include:
 * Cannabis policy of the Ronald Reagan administration
 * Domestic policy of the Ronald Reagan administration
 * Foreign policy of the Ronald Reagan administration
 * Andrew🐉(talk) 20:07, 10 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Such a rename seems unnecessary and like it could potentially imply a different article. Articles about highly influential/powerful people—U. S. presidents and non-presidents alike—and their interactions with notable topics appear throughout the Wikipedia. Examples include (alphabetical by surname or reign/position name):
 * John Quincy Adams and abolitionism
 * Pope Francis and LGBT topics
 * Ulysses S. Grant and the American Civil War
 * James VI and I and religious issues
 * Thomas Jefferson and education
 * Martin Luther and antisemitism
 * Franklin D. Roosevelt and civil rights
 * Joseph Smith and the criminal justice system
 * George Washington and slavery
 * Woodrow Wilson and race
 * Additionally, this article goes into details about Reagan personally (such as his acquaintanceship with Rock Hudson, his post-presidential career, and how this plays into Reagan's legacy), that are encyclopedic because they're covered in due, independent, reliable sources—like The New York Times, The Triumph of Nancy Reagan (Simon & Schuster, 2021), Secret City: The Hidden History of Gay Washington (Henry Holt and Company, 2022), the numerous sources in the legacy section—but could be out of scope for an article about the Reagan administration rather than about Reagan the president and post-president. Hydrangeans (she/her &#124; talk &#124; edits) 20:16, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree with this, this was generally my rationale for titling the article this way in the first place. With the examples provided here I do feel much better about the current title being in line with encyclopedic tone. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 21:42, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * In those other cases, the named person was quite involved personally. But this doesn't seem the case with AIDS.  For example, the NYT currently recalls how Reagan got personally involved repeatedly in previous Middle East crises.  We know that this was personal because he put it in his diary.  But for AIDS, "Mentions of AIDS in these diaries are sparse". Andrew🐉(talk) 06:54, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We might try to match the three titles that Andrew suggested above, otherwise the suggestion buidhe agreed to is an improvement. Bruxton (talk) 20:19, 10 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Looking at Template:United States policy, the common title format for these articles seems to be "[TOPIC] policy of the [PRESIDENT] administration", such as Domestic policy of the Ronald Reagan administration. CMD (talk) 04:25, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is what Andrew also suggested; I'm still slightly inclined towards leaving it as is, but if we are going move the article this seems more in scope with the article's current content. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 14:24, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

More representative lead image
It seems that it would be both more specific and more representative of this article's topic to use File:AIDSGATE poster from the Silence=Death Project, 1987.jpg as the lead image rather than the standard presidential portrait. It does the same job as the existing photo - showing what he looked like - while also making a statement on the specific subject of the article. I must say I am elated to find this expansive and well-sourced article after years of less than lip service paid to this important subject on the main Ronald Reagan article. Jaydenwithay (talk) 06:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi! Unfortunately that image is non-free copyrighted content, so I don't think we can duplicated it to the lede in line with minimal usage. I agree another image could be better suited for the lede though, possibly this one which is used on the main Reagan article, or this image from Reagan's first speech on AIDS. I'm also trying to find a place in the article for this image, which has an interesting contemporary sign criticizing Reagan at the 1987 March, which may also be suited for the lede. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 14:23, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Good catch! I actually uploaded the first photo you mentioned, and I think it fits well. Jaydenwithay (talk) 17:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh awesome, thank you for the upload! I'll go ahead and make that change then. 🌸wasianpower🌸 (talk • contribs) 17:20, 11 June 2024 (UTC)