Talk:Ronan O'Gara/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Shudde (talk · contribs) 03:41, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to review this article. I've given it a quick read and it will most likely be put on hold, but I'll comprehensively assess it against all the GA criteria as promptly as I can. - Shudde  talk 03:41, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I normally just go through the article line by line, but what I'll do here is instead go through looking at each criteria, and listing a few things that need to be addressed. I'll then add a section on things that I suggest are changed, but that are not necessary to full-fill the criteria (so these are suggestions). I'm probably going to have to re-read the article once you've made the changes listed below to double check everything.

1. Well-written: As per WP:LEAD, the lead needs some work:
 * "Ronan John Ross O'Gara (born 7 March 1977 in San Diego, California) is an Irish former rugby union player, who played at Fly-half for both Munster and Ireland." - why is fly-half in capitals? Ireland is mentioned twice. Maybe remove the first instance to make it read better, I'd recommend: "Ronan John Ross O'Gara (born 7 March 1977 in San Diego, California) is a former rugby union player, who played for both Ireland and Munster." Mention the Fly-half in the next sentence maybe?
 * Fixed Tomh903 (talk) 07:36, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "In addition to his prolific point-scoring" - see WP:WORDS
 * "He has started at fly-half in victorious European championship campaigns at both provincial and international level." redundant
 * "He has scored more tries (16) for Ireland than any other outhalf in history, and he is also Munster's all-time leading points scorer (2,625)." - maybe linke outhalf (or use fly-half), also it's repeating again.
 * I think the lead needs a complete re-write. Do this last. After you've made all the other changes, write a lead that summarises the article, so include information on both Ireland, Munster, and a brief something on his background and personal life.

Please read Manual of Style/Layout:
 * Section titles should only have a capitalise first word of the section title (unless proper nouns)
 * "International Tries"
 * Fixed Tomh903 (talk) 07:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "International Analysis by Opposition"
 * Fixed Tomh903 (talk) 07:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that the international tries, and international analysis by opposition (which surely should be renamed -- is simply a list of Test matches by opponent), should be included in the Honours section (which I'd rename "Honours and achievements")
 * Fixed Tomh903 (talk) 07:54, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Also read Manual of Style/Embedded lists:
 * There are lists here that should really be prose. I also think the article is quite list heavy -- this is an encyclopaedia, not a collection of statistics and trivia.
 * Records should be delisted. Maybe incorporate some of these into the "Honours and achievements section"
 * Fixed Tomh903 (talk) 08:06, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This looks like it has just been removed. What it's meant by delisted is replace it with prose. - Shudde  talk 08:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The "Honours" section should have a brief sentence or two introducing it, and making clear any inclusion criteria.
 * I thought something more similar to the lead. Maybe a prose summary of his major honours and achievements (a few sentences). -- Shudde  talk 08:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Prose is clear and concise:
 * There are a lot of one sentence paragraphs and very stubby sections. Maybe consider rewording or reorganising to avoid this.
 * I'll re-read and go through the prose in more detail once all the other comments have been addressed.

2. Verifiable I'll do a few spot checks on references:
 * "O'Gara is the fourth highest points scorer in the history of International Rugby Union.[4]" - ref [4] does not support this statement. Simply gives a list of international matches.
 * Fixed Tomh903 (talk) 08:33, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "O'Gara made his Munster debut against Connacht in August 1997, scoring 19 points.[7]" - ref [7] does not support that this was his debut
 * Fixed Tomh903 (talk) 14:35, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Is this a reliable source?
 * Yes, its an Irish sports website.Tomh903 (talk) 08:41, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not very specific. Is it a professional site, are there any editorial standards that we'd expect from a reliable source? -- Shudde  talk 08:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "O'Gara had an important role in Munster's semi final victory over rivals Leinster by scoring 20 points, including a 80th minute try.[16]" -- does not say anywhere he had an important role, supports the 20 point value (although you have to do the arithmetic yourself), doesn't say the try was in the 80th minute.
 * I got a new source and found out that the try was actually in the 77th minute. The new source doesn't say he had an important role exactly but it does say his try ended the game as a competition. Tomh903 (talk) 08:57, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "On 16 May 2010, O'Gara was awarded the ERC European Player Award, crediting him as the player who had made the greatest contribution to European Rugby during the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup. The selection panel consisted of Sir Ian McGeechan, Lawrence Dallaglio, Ieuan Evans, Fabien Galthié, Donal Lenihan, Michael Lynagh, Stuart Barnes, Stephen Jones and Jacques Verdier.[24]" -- I'm pretty sure the reference support this.
 * "O'Gara won a cap for Ireland A on 9 April 1999, against Italy A during a friendly.[44]" -- just gives lineups, doesn't support that it was his first appearance.
 * "He won his first international cap for Ireland against Scotland on 19 February 2000 during the 2000 Six Nations Championship.[46]" -- Again doesn't support this
 * Fixed Tomh903 (talk) 09:18, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "He came off the bench against England, and his tactical kicking ensured any chance of an England comeback was stopped, preventing them from winning a Grand Slam." -- not referenced
 * Could not find a specific source that said O'Gara ensured an England comeback was stopped so I just changed around the wording and referenced the fact that he played.
 * "In the Russia game, he became Ireland's highest points scorer in World Cup matches. He was selected ahead of Jonathan Sexton for Ireland's crunch Pool C game against Italy, and scored 16 points as Ireland won 36–6.[57]" -- Doesn't support the first sentence, supports the second.
 * "O'Gara also earnt his first Test cap for the Lions on this tour, coming on in the Third Test defeat as a replacement.[87]" -- spelling, and doesn't support that this was his first Cap.
 * "He was offered a one-year contract extension by Munster, but instead decided to take a coaching role outside of Ireland with French side Racing Métro 92.[94][95][96][97][98]" -- why are there five references here? Can they be split up, so do they each verify something different?
 * fixed Tomh903 (talk) 10:02, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * ""I have ambitions in the years ahead to coach at a high level and, with this in mind, I can confirm now that I will be joining Racing Métro's coaching staff in July. I am trusting my instinct and it is telling me now is the appropriate time to stop (playing). Could I have played on for another year? Of course I could, but I feel it's getting harder and harder every season and I want to leave the game at the height of my powers. Had I already decided to retire before the (Heineken Cup semi-final) loss in Montpellier last month? I kind of knew. My lads are gone. My boys in the team are gone."

"I retire as Ireland's most-capped player, but the decision of a certain Leinster man to keep playing suggests it won't be for long. Time to hang up the boots Brian (O'Driscoll)! Not being able to close out that Ireland career in my own way is a regret but one that was beyond my control. The only thing I'd say would be that the most pleasing thing was winning the number 10 jersey back for the 2011 World Cup. That confirmed the belief I had in myself and the doggedness I had about myself."[99][100]" -- this may be too large a section of copy-right text to reproduce here. Consider reducing to what is considered most important/encyclopaedic. I'm going to stop with spot-checks now. I'm very close to failing the article based on the referencing. Many of the statements are not supported by the sources provided. I'll allow you the opportunity to go through and fix this though. Be aware that there are probably more problems, as I only selected some statements, and didn't check everything. Also you rely heavily on stats websites (the IRFU website, espnscrum.com), maybe consider finding online news sources and match reports. These are likely to have good information, and may enable you to add more than just a list of statistics and appearances to certain sections on his career.
 * Fixed Tomh903 (talk) 10:56, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually there are far to many large non-PD quotes in the the Retirement section. Please cull this down.
 * Fixed (talk) 11:01, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "Upon his retirement, O'Gara held a number of records, both provincially and internationally.[105]" -- all look supported by the reference

Broad in its coverage:
 * My main problem here is that it seems much of his career is just a list of statistics. Also, I'm not sure about weight, why is there so much information on his Munster career from 2008--13, but not as much for 1997--2007
 * " O'Gara was involved in an off the ball incident with Duncan McRae, which resulted in O'Gara needing eight stitches around his eye and McRae being sent off and later banned for seven weeks." -- maybe this could be expanded on ?
 * Done Tomh903 (talk) 15:03, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "O'Gara earned his second Lions call-up for the tour to New Zealand in 2005[80] On the tour, he played in 6 tour games, against Bay of Plenty,[81] New Zealand Maori,[82] Otago,[83] Southland,[84] Manawatu[85] and Auckland,[86] scoring 49 points in total. O'Gara also earnt his first Test cap for the Lions on this tour, coming on in the Third Test defeat as a replacement.[87]" -- two sentences on seven matches for the Lions? Again maybe more on this.
 * Maybe "Coaching career" and "Retirement" sections could be merged (into Retirement and coaching career). Coaching can be spit off more later if need be.
 * Fixed
 * "O'Gara was educated at Presentation Brothers College, Cork, and won a Junior Cup medal in 1992 and a Senior Cup medal in 1995. He attended UCC and won an All-Ireland Under-20 medal in 1996" -- could you expand on this, what is "an All-Ireland Under-20 medal" and a "Junior Cup medal"? I'm guessing these are significant achievements, but it's hard for the reader to know without more information on them.

Neutral: No problems here.

Stable:  No problems here either.

Illustrated, if possible, by images: Checked all the images. All have sources, and appropriate licences.

Ok I've placed the article on hold. I'm going to have to re-read the article once you have addressed my issues above. The major things are layout, prose, and references. If you have any questions feel free to ask, and if you need an urgent response feel free to ping me on my talk page. -- Shudde  talk 04:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

--

Additional comments:
 * Please read through the comments above that have not been struck. It means that they haven't been addressed. If you're unsure what I'm referring to feel free to leave a comment or question.
 * I'm still not happy with the prose.
 * The lead hasn't been fixed at all. It needs a lot of work, there are many many redundancies. It could probably be reduced in length at the moment, with much of the information repeated. Give this a go, it's pretty important.
 * "On 9 February 2008, O'Gara became the eighth player in history to score 800 Test points, reaching the mark in Ireland's loss to France in the 2008 Six Nations Championship. On 11 March 2008, O'Gara was named as Ireland team captain for the first time in his career, leading the side in the Six Nations match against England at Twickenham." -- not referenced
 * I've culled some of the non-PD quotes myself. I think they do the job as is.
 * Have you done any double checks on references? Not just the ones I randomly decided to check (I didn't check them all by any means)?

I still haven't checked through the prose carefully yet. I'm not sure how much longer I should leave for my original comments to be addressed. I'm hoping less than a week. -- Shudde  talk 08:48, 16 August 2013 (UTC)