Talk:Rota (poem)

Unofficial version existing during the communist People's Republic of Poland
In the times of communist Polish People's Republic there existed some highly unofficial versions. The original was being changed to reflect the fact that the Soviet Union rather than Germany was the enemy of the Polish nation. One of the version, from my memory, is below (changed words in bold):

Rota

I need help translating the rest of the final stanza
 * A similar altered version may be found here. Double sharp (talk) 09:26, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Use by nationalists
In regards to this revert. The information is sourced to a relevant expert in the field of anthropology. Other info from this particular page (e.g. use by PSL) is already in our article. I will further note that Buchowski also compares Rota with Blood and Soil (Blut und Boden) in his conclusion of the chapter. Icewhiz (talk) 12:42, 18 April 2019 (UTC)
 * 1. The info you're trying to add appears in a single source, in a footnote (which means the author did not deem it particularly important).
 * 2. In that footnote the author enumerates various uses of the song/poem. YOU, and only YOU, blatantly WP:CHERRYPICKed only ONE example of the uses, in a WP:TENDENTIOUS manner which pushes a WP:POV.
 * 3. All kinds of songs are sung at all kinds of events. I'm sure "America The Beautiful" is sometimes sung by American nationalists and Shir Betar is sung by Israeli nationalists. Of all kinds.
 * 4. The author DOES NOT "compare Rota" to "Blood and Soil". Indeed the author states that the song "can be sung on such divergent occasions". The reference to "Blood and Soil" just appears on the same page of the book. AND the author here is using the phrase as an example of a metaphor and NOT explicitly as the original nationalist slogan.
 * So basically, your edit violates several Wikipedia policies and your attempts to justify it misrepresent the source. Again.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:25, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Buchowski quite clearly contrasts, in his conclusion, Rota va. Blood and Soil. He also clearly mentions the use of the song in opening ceremonies by "patriotic" groups such as the All-Polish Youth. Other uses of this poem are already documented in the article. In Wikipedia we generally follow sources.Icewhiz (talk) 05:30, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * You either did not read what I wrote or you are choosing to ignore it. He does no such thing.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:33, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I should also point out that the keywords you used for your searches are clearly visible in the links you provided. These obviously indicate that you were purposefully searching for a very specific phrase/POV. That further evidences that your text here is WP:CHERRYPICKed and unrepresentative of sources in general. If the best you could find is this weak ass support - a footnote and the mention of Rota appearing on the same page as another phrase - for your edits, then it's most likely the case that such a POV is simply not supported by sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:36, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I provided several sources, you did not. Also - please strike your assertion above - I modified my search terms to highlight the relevant passage in the books I found. In any case, so far we have IDONTLIKE (not based on a single source) vs. several academic sources. The use of Rota by so called patriots passes WP:V and ahould be in the article.Icewhiz (talk) 05:47, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The problem is not with you "providing sources", it's with you "misrepresenting sources". You either did not read what I wrote or you are choosing to ignore it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:15, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I think this is a serious case here of cherry picking source to present a biased image, resistance against German opression and eradication of Polish nationality can hardly be seen as anti-German, just like say Warsaw Ghetto uprising wouldn't be called anti-German. Of course both were directed against Germans but it has to be presented in clear and precise context-resistance against cultural and biological extermination respectively.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 08:44, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Interesting assertion, however multiple reputable sources disagree. Economic development in the Prussian partition was more advanced than the the Russian or Austrian partition. Do you have any RSes that compare the Holocaust in WWII to the situation in the Prussian partition circa 1908-10? Sources that make such a connection when discussing Rota's anti-German verses?Icewhiz (talk) 12:04, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * "Economic development in the Prussian partition was more advanced than the the Russian or Austrian partition" - this is true in a way, but what in the world does this have to do with anything? Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:54, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

POV tag
Academic sources describe this peom as an anti-German nationalist/patriotic song. We generally follow sources on Wikipedia. I will note that some go as far as calling this a hate song".. There were (I can ref this) anti-Russian uses as well - by substituting Germans for Russian in the lyrics. In any case - on Wikipedia we generally follow the POV present in reputable sources on this song with the memorable line "The German won't spit in our face".Icewhiz (talk) 05:43, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Dude. Did you just provide a source from a German nationalist who celebrated German colonialism to support the idea that this poem - written as a response to brutal policy of forced Germanization in the Prussian partition - was a ... "hate song"? Oh wait. The source is from 19freakin'64. Are you fucking serious? What's next, We Shall Overcome as a "hate song"???
 * Of your other two sources, the first one mentions the song in passing and says that it has "anti-German overtones". Which it does. It was... written as a response to brutal policy of forced Germanization. That doesn't mean it should be in the first thing the article mentions.
 * Your second source says it's "patriotic". Yet you insist on "nationalist". But that's not quite the same thing. Is "America the Beautiful" a "nationalist" song? Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:14, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * And the fact that the song was a protest song against the German empire is *already* noted in the article.Volunteer Marek (talk) 06:15, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * English sources generally refer to it as anti-German, often being the only thing they have to say about it - such short descriptions are key for lede balance. Here is another - "strongly anti-German" and "unofficial hymn of Polish nationalism" Now - I have provided several sources - your opinions on this anti-German nationalist song are all very interesting - but do not amount to much.Icewhiz (talk) 07:06, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * And if you replace "nationalist" with "patriotic" in your WP:CHERRYPICKed google books search you can find tons of other sources that call it that   (etc). I haven't offered any "opinions" about the song so please stop trying to derail the conversation by strawmannin'. Instead you could explain why you're trying to use oudated German colonialist and imperialist sources here or misrepresenting what sources say.
 * Likewise "anti-German" by itself is clearly POV since a song was written in a particular context .Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:49, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Patriotic does not conflict with nationalist. Likewise, this anti-German song being written as a response to Germanization does not make it any less anti-German - which is rather self evident from the hateful lyrics themselves - and more importantly described as such in nearly every source covering this anti-German song. Heck, the sole reference of any note in the article prior to my editing, Trochimczyk, refers to it as a "strongly anti-German poem", while also describing Germanization. Germanization being part of a bygone age, but the hateful lyrics still being recited by nationalists (continuing from the 1920s - when the nationalists used this as an alternative anthem to the official one) - now - any actual source contesting anti-German? Icewhiz (talk) 18:31, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
 * "Hateful lyrics"? Please keep on demonstrating that you shouldn't be anywhere near anything related to Poland.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:19, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

recent edits by Icewhiz
Involve more over the top POV pushing and repeated insertion of "nationalistic" and "anti-German" in some kind of bizarre WP:POINT. The fact that it was a patriotic song written in opposition to Germanization is already in the article. Yes, there is some useful info in the sources, but once again they're being misrepresented. For example this source does not say it was a "nationalistic counter-anthem". It says it was a "quasi-counter". The "nationalistic" part etc. is Icewhiz' own invention. Here Icewhiz uses some insignificant event as an excuse to mention the lyrics again. Which are already in the article. Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:17, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I am merely following the sources - which repeatedly mention "The German won't spit in our face" (or variants thereof). As for "nationalist counter-anthem" - the source refers to "the nationalist opposition to Pilsuduski" in the prior paragraph relating to Upper Silesia. The paragraph with "quasi-counter" begins with "The Right staged an akademik" (referring to the same nationalist opposition - Biskupski uses "the Right" and "nationalist opposition" interchangebly). The use of the poem is clearly attributed to the nationalist opposition to Piłsudski - if you wish to change this to "the Polish Right" - I am not opposed. Engaging in blanket reverts of well-sourced - from generally well-regarded academic sources - is not constructive. The sources themselves use nationalist and anti-German, and we should simply follow the tone set forth by the sources. Icewhiz (talk) 08:29, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No you're not. You're putting in some text which is indeed based on sources, but then mixing in your own opinions and POV original research as per example I give right above. Your edits are NOT well sourced. Indeed, they *misrepresent* sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:32, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I have strictly followed the language used by the sources - and don't have any particular strong opinion on this anti-German song. If you wish to modify nationalist to "the Polish Right" - go right ahead. Biskupski uses the two interchangeably.Icewhiz (talk) 08:34, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No you haven't. I give an explicit example where you embellished the source right above. And I don't know if you have a "strong opinion" on this song or not. Perhaps you're using it simply as a pretext. Your hyperbolic rhetoric ("hateful lyrics") is consistent with either strongly held feelings or with your typical attempts to use this article simply to provoke and antagonize.Volunteer Marek (talk) 08:52, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Nationalist, given use of it in the source, was a proper paraphrase of "The right", "ovations for prominent nationalist general, Jozef Haller". The source - is also clearly (final bit of prior paragraph) referring to the endecja - National Democracy - the definition of nationalist. I do not see why you feel provoked or antagonized - it should be your aim, as is mine, to present this anti-German poem in the manner it is presented by RSes. Now, could you please justify your removal of the following sourced content:
 * "Rota" is taught at Polish schools, and despite its use by the communist governments to drive up anti-German feelings in Poland it was also sung in Polish churches. Almost every Polish person educated during the communist period is familiar with the song.
 * During World War II, the Communists retained the old national anthem as well as "Rota" in order to reconcile the new Communist discourse with "Polishness". While "Rota" was a nationalistic "anachronism", its anti-German rhetoric of "shall not spit in our face" was seen a relevant to the war. Demonization of the German enemy was seen as fostering hatred and building moral, and diverted attention from Polish-Russian animus. "Rota" was made the official anthem of the 1st Tadeusz Kościuszko Infantry Division, and from May 1943 singing of the "Rota" was required at morning and evening roll calls. (the reduction of this to "The Communists also retained the same national anthem as well as "Rota", making it the official anthem of the 1st Tadeusz Kościuszko Infantry Division." doesn't convey its use to demonize the Germans that is present in the source).
 * Removal of Category:Anti-German sentiment
 * Icewhiz (talk) 09:14, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Please provide a source for the claim that the lyrics are "hateful".Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:29, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * "Demonization of the German enemy".The German state planned genocide of both Jews and Poles during the war, demonization wasn't really required for people in Poland to view them in negative light.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:44, 21 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, while it is true nationalists use this as one of their symbols, we have to keep in mind NPOV/UNDUE. White supremacists in the USA may wave the American flag, it doesn't mean the American flag article has to mention who and how is abusing it, now, does it? PS. Overall I do think that this article should mention that this song has became one of the common symbols of the Polish nationalists. But I am rather unsure to what degree it can be seen as anti-German. Is refusing to be Germanized anti-German? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 09:50, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Anyone can get this article?
might be relevant, but I can't access it. PS. Found it, but it only says Rota has become a symbolic piece. He also notes that such works can have different meanings for different groups. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:07, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
 * (ec) You can get it here. Just a passing mention (next to Adama Asnyka „Miejcie nadziejęnie tę lichą marną”) AFAICT.Icewhiz (talk) 10:14, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Anthem of PSL and LPR
I can't find any source for when did Rota became the anthem of those political parties. It's a very popular song, so listing instances it is sang at is pointless (it is likely sang every day in Poland somewhere), but listing some official instances it sang at, organizations it is affiliated with, etc. seems more reasonable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:14, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * As pointed out by Buchowski this anti-German song is the "official anthem of the Polish Peasant Party". It is also, per Buchowski (who mentions this prior to PSL) used in various internet website and "sung as an opening act at various ceremonies held by self-acclaimed 'patriotic' organizations (.e.g Młodzież Wszechpolska, or, All-Polish-Youth) - page 25. Buchowski on page 42 - "This explains why Rota can be sung on so divergent occasions, and for participants of both it is equally important and serious. For critics of such a nationalist view this repetition of history appears as its own parody. It was hard to predict that blood and soil would assume such a conspicuous role in the discourse occurring in the period of post communist transition and EU-accession negotiations" - sees Rota as type of Blood and Soil narrative. For some odd reason this source, published by John Benjamins Publishing Company, is being removed from the article. Icewhiz (talk) 04:56, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it's the wording/undue issue. If you reword the removed content to avoid the impression that it is used only by nationalists, I think it will be fine. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  09:59, 22 April 2019 (UTC)