Talk:Royal College, Colombo/Archive 2

College name
The section College name, is both nonconstructive and confusing as indicated by the recent edits by User:Wo2gana. A Google search indicates;
 * Key word search of "Royal College Colombo" brought 911,000 results
 * Key word search of "Royal College Colombo 7" brought 447,000 results

Therefore these multiple variations that appear in local newspapers should be removed, as the name Royal College Colombo is by far the most common name and other variations are random interpretations by local newspaper authors. Cossde (talk) 15:18, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * A 2 to 1 result doesn't mean we should remove the other information. In fact, a one-third share is quite substantial, and almost a guarantee that we should include the info. That being said, your google search doesn't mean what you think it means--the way that Google handles multiple terms in a search string, along with the way that it looks at mirrors, means you can't simply compare numbers--you need to actually look at sample results. Doing so is time consuming and painful; if you want to do it, you'll need to look at, say the top several hundred results from each search and then go and hand count them, throwing out duplicates and false results (like where the words are all included, but in a different order). An easier, and probably more accurate solution, is to simply go by feel: are there a substantial number of newspaper editors who use the other name? Then we should mention it in the article. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:24, 12 June 2013 (UTC)
 * User:Cossde is same as User:Wo2gana, co-editors, WP visitors καὶ τὰ ἕτερα. No extraordinary substance or a tactician but a member of this planet (assured sans any reliable references[[image:SFriendly.gif|18px]]). WP has no rules reserved for User:Cossde's editing. Royal College Colombo or Colombo Royal College is extremely less (or not) mentioned in any foreign newspapers (or media though Royal prefix may have been granted in 1881) because it is located in Sri Lanka being immediate neighbors with Thurstan College and University of Colombo. Hence other names too must be included in article. Now, don't be bewildered...answer to question In which battle did Napoleon die? can be in his last battle. Long way to go, happy editing.(Wo2gana (talk) 02:08, 13 June 2013 (UTC)).


 * I'm sorry Wo2gana, I cant make head of tail of what you are trying to say.
 * Qwyrxian, Yes I do agree. In going through the first 12 of pages of searches (key words: Royal College Colombo ) the following forms of reference to the school were found; Royal College; Royal College, Colombo; Royal College Colombo; Royal College, Colombo 7; Royal College Colombo 7. In it I was unable to find Colombo Royal College. In a similar manner I was unable to find additional sources than the one provided for the term "Colombo Royalists". Therefore I dont think that the terms "Colombo Royalists" or "Colombo Royal College" used by substantial number of newspaper editors to be mentioned here. Cossde (talk) 13:18, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't be sorry Cossde, (is it head OR tail? - unfortunately I do not have a tail). Just blank it or ignore. Interesting to watch your behavior, arguments, discussions etc. Keep going.(Wo2gana (talk) 01:47, 14 June 2013 (UTC)).
 * Wo2gana, you're going to need to establish that those terms are regularly used. Just because one or two journalists used them doesn't mean we should include them in the article. This falls under WP:UNDUE. Cossde is claiming that two of those are not substantially used. Unless you can prove otherwise (and the burden falls on you, as the one wanting to include the info), they should be removed. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:49, 14 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Google search I did indicated 8,101,879 outcomes (Wo2gana (talk) 03:14, 15 June 2013 (UTC)).
 * What are the key words you used ? Cossde (talk) 05:40, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's not believable Wo2gana. Please provide the exact search strings you used. Please note, for instance, that if you search for something in google without using quotation marks, the engine will find results that are totally unrelated. So if I search for star wars, and I don't use quotation marks, I will find pages that include sentences like "The ancient Egyptians only went to war when the stars were aligned", even though I meant to only search for the movie Star Wars. Also, you need to do some basic checking and found out if those search results refer specifically to the college in Colombo, not, for example, a "Royal College" in the UK or some other country. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:45, 16 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Since, no prof has been provided to claim that current students of Royal are called generally referred to as Colombo Royalists, said item will be removed along with "Colombo Royal College". The rest will be merged into the lead section.Cossde (talk) 16:51, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I see you have used this as a smokescreen to remove all references to the school being known by other names. This has been discussed many times and there is no consensus for removal of this referenced information.-- obi2canibe talk contr 11:16, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * With all due respect Obi2canibe, as indicated in the above discussions no tentative proof has been established to prove that these are names are common names or if there are only individual occurrences. My removal was done after no one came forward to verify that these names are commonly used with stats for over a month. And I waited a day after posting that these are to be-removed due to lack of proof to support said claims before actually removing them. If you want to re-add these names, pls proved stats as the burden falls on you.Cossde (talk) 12:28, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Appalling behaviour. This has been discussed at length on several occasions, most notably at Talk:Royal College, Colombo. In this discussion everyone else except you accepted that other names should be included. You clearly disagreed and have been biding your time, hoping that other editors will lose interest. And now you have removed all reference to the school being called by other names in a very underhand way. You know very well that WP:COMMONNAME only applies to the name of the article. No one is suggesting that this article be re-named. If you continue to go against the consensus, a topic ban would be the only solution for your behaviour.-- obi2canibe talk contr 13:43, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Obi2canibe, pls read the above discussion ! Cossde (talk) 14:08, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Cossde, is Obi2canibe's charge correct? Did you remove all references to other names? I'm going to do something odd now: I'm not going to check the article. If you have removed all of the references to other names, I suggest you self-revert. If you have not, then I must be misunderstanding you or Obi2canibe. There is ample evidence that there is more than one name. There is no requirement that names be used "equally", only that they be used beyond a fringe position. If there are a relevant number of sources that use the other names, we must include them. Period. If you have removed them, and you refuse to self-revert now, I will block you. Am I too WP:INVOLVED for such an action? I don't know. But you've been trying, for a long time, to push a specific POV w.r.t. to this article that you have never substantiated in a way compatible with our policies. Yes, your "opponents" have also been ignoring policy (to the point of sockpuppetry and ridiculous edit warring), but that does not give you license to decide that a 1/3 ratio is somehow so insubstantial as to not warrant inclusion. So I'm telling you, point blank: do the sources support, unamibiguously, one and only one name? Unambiguously would be upwards of 90%, or would involve other qualifications such that one name was overwhelmingly the name normally used and all other names were far far less important. If it is not that unambiguous, please ensure the other names are in the article, or face a block. This has gone on for long enough. 14:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Cossde has removed all reference to Colombo Royal College, Colombo Royalists, Colombo Royal and Royal Colombo. He has removed eleven reliable sources which backed up these terms. And he has removed the College name section despite agreeing to a separate section back in September 2012. In October 2012 his attempt to move the College name section to the end of the article was the catalyst for the Talk:Royal College, Colombo discussion. Now he has gone one step further and removed the section completely!-- obi2canibe talk contr 15:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Obi2canibe, I have self revert the changes pertaining to this discussion. However I have kept in-place the other changes which have been made after it (which had also been removed by Obi2canibe earlier). I removed several names and moved others to the lead (without refs.. my mistake). Items in question as as follows;


 * Royal
 * Royal College, Colombo 7
 * Colombo Royal College
 * Colombo Royal
 * Royal Colombo
 * Colombo Royalists

As I mentioned before;


 * Key word search of "Royal College Colombo" brought 911,000 results
 * Key word search of "Royal College Colombo 7" brought 447,000 results

Apart from the provided refs I could find any common usage. Could you please indicate such usage. Cossde (talk) 17:56, 20 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Common? How many times do you have to be told that we are not trying to fathom out this school's common name. We are trying to follow Wikipedia's core content policy, specifically Verifiability. Verifiability does not in itself guarantee inclusion, consensus does. The consensus in the previous discussions was that this content should be included. The only editor who objected was you. You are refusing to accept this consensus and repeating the same arguments over and over again to get your way.-- obi2canibe talk contr 11:50, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * We need to draw a balance. If a name is mentioned only once, then we should not mention it--that falls under WP:UNDUE/WP:FRINGE. But if a name is used rarely but measurably, then we should probably mention it. As you said, verifiability does not guarantee inclusion; just because we can verify that a name exists, does not mean we should include it. Consensus can't override other policies, and in this case WP:NPOV] (of which [[WP:UNDUE is a part) says we can't overemphasize something more than it is emphasized in the real world...and that, if something is almost never expressed in the real world, we should not mention it at all. Obi2canibe, we need some searching/results from you as well. Please provide us with which other names you believe should be included, along with some idea of how often they are used. We don't need actual numbers, but if you said something like "this newspaper always seems to use this name", that would help. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:09, 22 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I would like Colombo Royal College and Colombo Royalists re-instated. I'm not bothered about Colombo Royal and Royal Colombo which were added by the sock.


 * You won't find any source which always uses a single name exclusively. The names are so interchangeable that everybody knows what they are referring to, a bit like "University of Oxford", "Oxford University", "Oxford". All I can show is that some of the names removed by Cossde are used by a variety of sources:
 * Colombo Royal College - Daily Mirror 1, Daily Mirror 2, Sunday Times, Island 1, Island 2, Island 3, Daily News 1, Daily News 2, Daily News 3, Daily News 4, Daily News 5, Sunday Observer, Nation, NPC, News.lk, SLBC, Hiru News, Arnold Wright, John Ferguson, UK Parliament, Army, Navy.
 * Colombo Royalists - Sunday Observer, Daily News.
 * There are also various other sources who use these two terms but I'm not sure if they are RS e.g. Kandy News, ITPRO, Maldives Culture, LankaSri, MoraSpirit.


 * For the record, the actual Google search results are:
 * Royal College Colombo - 161,000
 * Colombo Royal College - 82,200
 * -- obi2canibe talk contr 11:24, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Obi2canibe's reply in this case is acceptable with a single exception. Due to the presentation of finding, "Colombo Royal College" seems to be used in news articles even though it is inaccurate. Therefore as Qwyrxian, stated there seems to be statistical evidence to include it here.
 * That said, the only item I have to object to is "Colombo Royalists" since only two articles have been presented and therefore can not be considered as commonly used. As such it shouldn't be included here.
 * For the record non of these need to be reinstated as these are already in the article. Only the inappropriate should be removed.
 * Finally, as stated by Obi2canibe, in the case of University of Oxford, the informal reference "Oxford University or simply Oxford" has been added to its lead as well as its abbreviated "Oxon.". On similar terms how can we proceed with this article and which form of lead should we have? Cossde (talk) 11:49, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Are you saying Colombo Royal College should be included in the lead? Back in October everybody else agreed that we should include the other names in the lead. You were the only fly in the ointment.-- obi2canibe talk contr 12:31, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * As I said, its inaccurate ! I said that then, I say that now. However, since you have shown that statistically that the college is referred to as such we can add it according to Qwyrxian. Unfortunately or fortunately, we can list the names "Royal College", "Royal College Colombo", "Royal College, Colombo", "Royal College, Colombo 7", "Colombo Royal College" and "Royal" in the lead. I do like to know that Qwyrxian has to say ? Cossde (talk) 17:19, 28 July 2013 (UTC)


 * You should know by now that Wikipedia doesn't deal with the truth or accuracy, it deals with verifiability. So, we go back to what was suggested on 6 October 2012. Back then Qwyrxian agreed the other names being included in the lead sentence (as did Sitush). It's a shame it's taken you all this time to agree with everyone else. Don't change your mind again!-- obi2canibe talk contr 18:18, 29 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Obi2canibe, I am truly sad to hear you say "You should know by now that Wikipedia doesn't deal with the truth or accuracy, it deals with verifiability", I strongly believe that Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia hence "truth or accuracy" is supreme. Fine call me naive for trying to maintain "truth or accuracy" in Wikipedia I am not ashamed of it.


 * Obi2canibe, did you read my comment clearly ! I agreed to the inclusion of "Colombo Royal College" but NOT "Colombo Royalist" since you have failed to statistically it is used more than a few times (two times in this case). Therefore I CAN NOT agree to the your proposed lead of 6 October 2012. And if you see even in it I have agreed to include "Colombo Royal College" but refused to agree to include "Colombo Royalist"! Cossde (talk) 16:43, 30 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I suggest you read WP:V and WP:NOTTRUTH. With this edit you removed any reference to Colombo Royal College. You have now only agreed to include it after I protested.-- obi2canibe talk contr 13:52, 3 August 2013 (UTC)


 * My agreement on keeping Colombo Royal College goes back to October 6, 2012 as you can see here. Yet even since then you are yet to provide statistical evidence to prove that "Colombo Royalists" is a used often even though the burden of evidence lies with you. Cossde (talk) 13:22, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I've been avoiding this, because it's such a weird debate, and I don't udnerstand why it's so important. By now, I'm totally, confused. Could each of you please propose exactly what you want the lead to say with reference to the naming issue? Then we can see how close we are. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:24, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * "Royal College (also known as Colombo Royal College, Royal College Colombo,  Royal College, Colombo 7  or simply as Royal ) is a selective entry boys' school in Colombo, Sri Lanka. Founded by chaplain Joseph Marsh in 1835 as a private school, it became the country's first government-run secondary boy's school in January 1836.


 * Often referred to as the Eton of Sri Lanka, Royal College is considered to be the leading public school in Sri Lanka. The school was founded in the British public school tradition and was one of the first schools to be designated as a national school by the Sri Lankan government. As a national school it is funded by the central government as opposed to the provincial council providing both primary and secondary education. The school was selected as "one of best innovative colleges" in the world by Microsoft in 2009.


 * Royal College's students are known as Royalists whilst former students are known as Old Royalists. The school has produced many distinguished alumni, among whom are presidents of two countries, a sultan, and three prime ministers. "
 * -- obi2canibe talk contr 13:37, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The above lead is acceptable with several minor changes and expansions the lead as follows;
 * "Royal College (also referred to as Royal College Colombo,, Royal College, Colombo 7  , Colombo Royal College,  or simply as Royal ) is a selective entry boys' school located in Colombo, Sri Lanka. Started as a private school by Rev Joseph Marsh in 1835, it was established as the  Colombo Academy  by Sir Robert Wilmot-Horton in January 1836, the first government-run secondary school for boys in the island.


 * Royal College is considered to be the leading public school in Sri Lanka and is often referred to as the Eton of Sri Lanka . The school was founded in the British public school tradition having being named as the  Royal College Colombo  in 1881 with Royal consent from Queen Victoria and it was one of the first schools to be designated as a national school by the Sri Lankan government in the 1980's. As a national school it is funded by the government as opposed to the provincial council providing both primary and secondary education. The school was selected as "one of best innovative colleges" in the world by Microsoft in 2009.


 * Students of Royal College are known as Royalists whilst past pupils are known as Old Royalists. The school has produced many distinguished alumni, among whom are presidents of two countries, a sultan, and three prime ministers. "


 * Reason for moving Royal College Colombo to the first and Colombo Royal College to the last is due to the Google search results presented by obi2canibe earlier. Cossde (talk) 13:49, 11 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Fine by me.-- obi2canibe talk contr 15:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Changes applied. Cossde (talk) 10:04, 25 August 2013 (UTC)