Talk:Ruben Vardanyan (politician)

Much dubious content in this article
Was this article lifted unaltered from a press release written by his office? Most of the content was added by a single editor who has worked on nothing else. Vardanyan is actually one of Armenia's "legal criminal" oligarchs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.184.0 (talk) 03:09, 18 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There is a OCCRP investigation about Vardanyan and Troika Dialog: https://www.occrp.org/en/troikalaundromat/vast-offshore-network-moved-billions-with-help-from-major-russian-bank I think it should be added to the article. --Unreal79 (talk) 13:37, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Advertorial Tag Removal
This article was improved considerably by me. All the advertorial materials have been removed from the article. If anyone wants to contest this action, please feel free to discuss here. Gluconuh (talk) 08:38, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

"Russian"
I've removed the descriptor of Ruben Vardanyan as "Russian" in the first sentence of the article since this is discouraged by MOS:ETHNICITY. He renounced his Russian citizenship. Regardless of his apparent reasons for doing so, this generally means that he should no longer be described as Russian. Furthermore, the term "Russian-Armenian" is itself problematic since hyphens can imply ethnicity-nationality, whereas we are only supposed to list nationalities. So, before he renounced his Russian citizenship, it would have been better to describe him as a "Russian and Armenian" politician/businessman, with the "and" replacing the hyphen. Now that he has renounced his Russian citizenship and acquired Artsakh citizenship (whilst retaining his Armenian citizenship), he should be described as "Armenian and Artsakh(i)". Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Russia is mentioned numerous times throughout the body section of the article, but it isn't mentioned in the lead (except for in the nationality part that I removed), and it also isn't mentioned in the early life section (of course, it is possible that Vardanyan migrated to Russia as an adult). As it stands, Vardanyan's exact relationship with Russia is not very clear in the article, as the article just starts discussing Russia without clarifying the exact relationship. The article needs to be clarified so that we know exactly how Vardanyan is connected to Russia; for example, if he migrated to Russia at some point, then that information should be clearly explained. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It does say that he graduated from Moscow State University in the early life section, which is located in Russia. Immediately beforehand, it says that he graduated from "Yerevan School No. 35", which is in Armenia, in 1985. So, using my detective skills, I suspect that Vardanyan immigrated to Russia in 1985. This information should be obvious, but it is not directly stated in the article even though it's implied (by the fact that he was originally in Armenia and then suddenly teleported into Russia). Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:16, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: At the time (1985), Russia and Armenia were both parts of the Soviet Union, so it wouldn't have been very difficult for Vardanyan to immigrate from Armenia to Russia at the time. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Article name
I can see in the history of this article that it was renamed to "Ruben Vardanyan (politician)" on November 4, 2022. Subsequently, it was reverted back to "Ruben Vardanyan (businessman)" on January 18, 2023‎, with no explanation.

In my view, the new title is perfectly acceptable, and I can't see anything particularly wrong with it. I support moving the article to "Ruben Vardanyan (politician)". Currently, Ruben Vardanyan is a politician, even though he has only been one for a brief period of time (from what I can tell). His political position is very important in the relative part of the world in which he is currently located, so it certainly satisfies the NOTABILITY requirements. His business ventures are also important, but his political position seems to be more important than his business ventures. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 02:27, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Article seems heavily astroturfed
All references to this guy being a Russian oligarch close to Putin who was sanctioned seem to have dissapeared, or the fact that he is suspected of being a russian agent sent to stepanakert to preserve Russian interests from the inside. Along with corruption he has been accused of. Article ready like a fluff piece of a philanthropist with the heart of gold type shtick. Midgetman433 (talk) 03:14, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Oligarch or Philantropist
Hi @Kevo327. You removed "Oligarch part" from the article and added "Philantropist". And left a message: "most WP:RS describe him as philanthropist or businessman, ad sources". I restored former sources which includes Financial Times. And added more sources. I hope we are not going to discuss whether Jamestown, Politico, Foreign Policy, BBC, Washington Post are reliable or not. Simple Google search let's you to find lot's of reliable articles about Vardanyan being Oligarch. I can add more sources if 13 is not enough to persuade you.

For now I kept the "Philantropist" part to have a discussion first. You could also do the same btw. I don't think we should keep Philantropist word there. Most oligarchs do such things in order to white wash their reputation. He was also part of Troika Laundromat. He's close person to Putin and even nicknamed "Putin's wallet". Aredoros87 (talk) 15:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)


 * I'm removing the "Philanthropist" part due to the no response from Kevo32 (the user was blocked indefinitely). Aredoros87 (talk) 11:48, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Biased and outdated content
I would like to flag that this article is overly negative in tone and comes across as very biased against Mr Vardanyan. The article has no reference to the calls for Mr Vardanyan's release from prominent public figures such as Henrikh Mikhitaryan. Furthermore, assertions that he maintains 'close ties' to Vladimir Putin are at least out of date, if not slanderous, considering Mr Vardanyan's renouncement of his Russian citizenship. Timb1976 (talk) 15:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * This was reported in multiple sources, in Armenia, Azerbaijan and internationally. The article does not claim it as a fact, it says that this is what some sources report. The calls for release could be mentioned, with attribution. Grand  master  07:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

POV edits
@Shinadamina, your edits are very concerning. You deleted official charge 2 times[1 ][2 ] and put "political prisoner" term with terrible sources (Armenian state channel and ArmenianWeekly). Moreover, you deleted Putin's relationship with Vardanyan under the edit summary "Ref bombing cleanup".[3 ].  Aredoros87  (talk) 19:51, 24 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Firstly, based on your edit history, you seem to have a strong bias towards Turkish and Azerbaijani subjects, so perhaps it is a COI. I don't mind that you bring this up for discussion because we need the article to be neutral per WP:POV and I found that the article is lump sided. Using the words "political prisoner" comes from several sources and is more neutral than calling him a Terrorist.
 * Vadanyan has been referred to as a political prisoner in both US Congress and UK Parliament:
 * https://www.congress.gov/congressional-record/volume-170/issue-98/senate-section/article/S4011-2
 * https://www.markey.senate.gov/news/press-releases/senators-markey-and-cassidy-urge-state-department-to-help-secure-release-of-political-prisoners-held-by-azerbaijan
 * https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2024-03-19/debates/667E701E-BF59-41AF-AB5C-624F772EA4BC/Nagorno-KarabakhArmenianRefugees
 * The fact is that he is illegally detained in violation of international laws (according to several sources).
 * According to US Congress:
 * "These eight former officials have been held in pretrial detention for more than 8 months. And just last month, Azerbaijani authorities extended the detention with another 5 months--without a trial, without due process--and Azerbaijan has routinely resorted to hostage diplomacy, prolonging unlawful detention and using prisoners of war as bargaining chips to impose its demands on Armenia, in clear violation of international law." Shinadamina (talk) 08:05, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * you seem to have a strong bias towards Turkish and Azerbaijani subjects, so perhaps it is a COI. this is not the way editors talk to each other here. Take a look on WP:ASG. Please keep it WP:CIVIL and refrain from attacking unless you have something to show on WP:COI/N.
 * ...is more neutral than calling him a Terrorist no idea where does this come from.
 * Vadanyan has been referred to as a political prisoner in both US Congress and UK Parliament this is utterly false. US Congress didn't adopt any resolution or anything. It's an opinion by two senators. They do not represent the entire congress. The same thing goes for the UK Parliament as well. It's one personal opinion.
 * You restored the non-WP:RS sources[1 ]. One of them belongs to the government of Armenia, while the other one belongs to ARF. Alongside the sources, you restored the edit which breaks MOS:LEAD and WP:PEACOCK.
 * And lastly, do you care to explain your secret removal of Putin's relationship to Vardanyan under the edit summary "Ref bombing cleanup"?  Aredoros87  (talk) 19:38, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There are many additional sources that call Vardanyan and the others that are being held as "Political Prisoners." Please check:
 * https://www.barrons.com/news/rights-of-detained-ex-karabakh-leader-must-be-respected-un-22f12b71
 * https://en.aravot.am/2024/04/25/346342/
 * https://news.am/eng/news/818739.html
 * https://ancuk.org.uk/anc-uk-newsletter-april-2024/
 * https://asbarez.com/ruben-vardanyan-was-tortured-in-baku-prison-legal-team-says/
 * https://zartonkmedia.com/2024/04/20/prompted-by-international-pressure-ruben-vardanyan-finally-allowed-phone-call-with-family-reveals-he-is-in-complete-isolation-his-health-is-deteriorating/
 * Regarding all other edits related to Puttin, they did not comply with POV and represented the subject in a negative way. Some of the sources were low quality and also we need multiple sources for any controversial edits per WP:EXCEPTIONAL we would need multiple high quality sources. Shinadamina (talk) 02:32, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The first source does not call Vardanyan a political prisoner. It discuses a call from the UN officials to respect the rights of Vardanyan in detention. The rest are not reliable third party sources. Grand  master  13:34, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Grandmaster please note that Aredoros87 previously had a 3-month block on editing Azeri/Armenia related pages. This is more proof that he may have a bias and his opinions should not be considered valid.
 * The term political prisoner in regards to the subject has been used in the US Congress and UK Parliament per 3 sources I posted in my initial response.
 * It is also unreasonable to dismiss every source I provided as unreliable. Specifically, news.am and Asbarez (US-based) are highly credible and well-known for news websites. Both have Wikipedia pages, indicating their established reputations and are not blogs.
 * And here are more sources calling him a Political Prisoner:
 * https://euro.dayfr.com/world/2306285.html
 * https://www.jurist.org/news/2024/06/former-nagorno-karabakh-officials-legal-team-claims-azerbaijan-tortured-client/
 * https://iravaban.net/en/481606.html
 * https://armenianweekly.com/2024/04/26/ruben-vardanyan-granted-permission-to-speak-with-family-who-plea-for-end-to-his-hunger-strike/ Shinadamina (talk) 18:20, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The 1st link doesn't call him "political prisoner". Please stop putting random links.
 * aravot.am, news.am are Yerevan-based news agencies.
 * ancuk.org.uk belongs to Armenian National Commitee (diaspora) of UK ultimately ARF
 * Ashbarez belongs to ARF aswell
 * Zartonik belongs to Armenian Diaspora in US. And it's a WP:PARTISAN website.[1 ][2 ]
 * This's the 2nd time you bring up ARF outlets. None of them is a WP:RS source in WP:GS/AA scope. Reliable sources are Financial Times, Guardian, Washington Post etc. which has been used in the article.
 * Some of the sources were low quality which one for example?
 * Do you plan to explain your restoration of the edit which breaks MOS:LEAD and WP:PEACOCK -- which I mentioned above?  Aredoros87  (talk) 21:04, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Aredoros87 I responded to all your concerns at the Request for Enforcement forum. The issue with Political Prisoner was also further explained there. It does not take a genius to figure out when someone is arrested for a war crime, he is a political prisoner. I gave you 10 citations from publications and 3 more transcripts from US Congress and UK Parliament calling him "Political Prisoner."
 * Yes I agree some of those sources could be unreliable, however as I stated before It is also unreasonable to dismiss every source I provided as unreliable. Specifically, news.am and Asbarez (US-based) are highly credible and well-known for news websites. Both have Wikipedia pages, indicating their established reputations and are not blogs. In addition Armenian Weekly is also a reliable publication. This one also has a wiki page. The fact that the US Congress and Uk Parliament have discussed it and called him a Political Prisoner, can also be used as a valid citation.
 * The examples of unreliable sources which I removed are:
 * https://jamestown.org/program/azerbaijan-grows-wary-of-russian-oligarch-vardanyans-true-intentions-in-karabakh/ It is a conservative defense policy thinktank according to its Wiki page, and can be considered biased to certain subjects
 * https://townhall.com/columnists/wesmartin/2023/01/08/is-putin-preparing-to-replace-armenias-pro-democracy-prime-minister-with-his-own-un-elected-oligarch-n2618021 it's American conservative website, according to its Wiki page and can be considered biased towards some subjects.
 * https://roscongress.org/speakers/vardanyan-ruben/biography/ - this is a bio page and not acceptable as a citation
 * https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/analysis-opinion/1696069350-russia-s-vladimir-putin-s-wallet-who-is-ruben-vardanyan-analysis - Israeli publication and biased. As we know Israel provided arms to Azerbaijan and is their supporter, so we can't consider any Israeli publication to write unbiased articles about Armenian subjects.
 * Some other references were removed because of REFBOMB issues. If there is anything I removed that you think should not have been removed, please feel free to post here for discussion.
 * Regarding MOS:LEAD, it was not me that inserted the info initially, but when you removed it, I restored it because I found the info to be relevant. If there is any issue why you think the info should not be in the intro, please post your explanation.
 * Keep in mind that you were previously banned for three months from editing Azeri/Armenian topics, and your edit history indicates a bias towards Azeri and Turkish subjects. I hope you can approach this subject impartially, but I if see any further issues with your edits, I will report you to the enforcement forum. Shinadamina (talk) 08:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * news.am and Asbarez are not third party sources. They are not reliable for the claims that you made in the article. Also, most of the sources that you provided simply report the opinion of Vardanyan's lawyers. The opinions cannot be presented as facts, in particular when they clearly have a conflict of interest. It is not universally accepted to call Vardanyan a political prisoner. No serious international organization does it. Statements of individual politicians are not reliable sources in this context. They can only be used to present the opinions of those politicians, if those politicians are notable, but not for statements of facts. In addition, you cannot remove the charges made against Vardanyan. We must inform the reader what exactly he is being accused of. Whether those charges are true or not is not up to us to decide. Our task is to present all the available information in a neutral fashion. Grand  master  08:54, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
 * @Grandmaster So, is it your opinion that Vardanyan is not a political prisoner? This seems to be the main point of contention between us. Can you explain why you believe we shouldn't label him as a political prisoner? If you don't consider him a political prisoner, what type of prisoner do you think he is?
 * Our task is to be neutral per WP:NPV and that is all I am trying to do. However, I welcome all opinions from other editors on this subject. If we don't get enough participation, we can post an RFC and take a vote on the matter.


 * I also don't think you can be impartial and unbiased regarding this subject, because based on your edit history and userpage, you have a strong affection for Azeri and Turkish subjects. Shinadamina (talk) 05:30, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The problem is that you don't understand how this project works. It does not matter what we think. It only matters what the majority of reliable third party sources say. Is it universally accepted that Vardanyan is a political prisoner? Just because Vardanyan's lawyers, family members and senator Markey say so does not mean that he is. Markey is just one of 535 congress members. The views on the subject must be presented according to their weight, which holds that "Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority is as significant as the majority view". We don't see that major international news outlets, human rights organizations (HRW, etc) or supranational entities (UN) call him a political prisoner. You try to push the minority view as the majority view, despite no consensus at talk. Also, you should mind WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, and comment on content, not the contributor. This is not the first time you being warned about it. This type of editing may eventually result in sanctions. Grand  master  08:41, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Just because the Azerbaijani government labels him a terrorist does not mean he is one. His arrest for war crimes by Azerbaijan already classifies him as a political prisoner. Our goal is to remain neutral. The accusations against him are unproven, and even an Azerbaijani court conviction wouldn't be valid without UN or world court recognition. Therefore, presenting Azerbaijan's claims alone is not neutral. If consensus arises that he should not be labeled a political prisoner, we can adjust it.
 * I also will be watching this page for any editors that may have apparent bias or COI and report them to admins. Shinadamina (talk) 23:48, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * No one says that he is a terrorist. What we must write is that he is charged with terrorism. It is an undisputed fact that these are the charges that are made against him. Being charged and actually being something are two different things. That's what the article said: he was charged by Azerbaijani authorities with "financing terrorism, creating illegal armed formations and illegally crossing a state border". It is an accurate and verifiable info, attributed to the Azerbaijani government, that such charges are made. We must also present the position of the defense that denies charges. Both sides of the story must be presented for neutrality. You cannot remove the info that you do not agree with. As for political prisoner, you cannot claim that he is one, because it is a minority view. As for consensus. you must seek it, because there are 2 editors who do not agree with you. Grand  master  12:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There has been no response to my last comment for about a week. If there are no further objections, I will roll back the edits that have no consensus to the original version. Grand  master  07:05, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm confused, what is that you're planning to change? Because the bogus charges shouldn't be in the lead, for example, and unless there are sources disputing that he's a political prisoner, how can you decide if it's a "minority view" or not? Please explain exactly what you want to change before doing it. Vanezi (talk) 09:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I want to restore what exactly he is being charged with, because the information about that was completely removed from the article in violation of WP:NPOV, and attribute the claim that he is a political prisoner, because it is a view held by a tiny minority. He is not recognized as a political prisoner by HRW, Amnesty or anyone else, and the opinion of a US congressman and Vardanyan's lawyers and family must be attributed to them, and not claimed as fact, per WP:Weight. And it is you who should demonstrate that it is generally accepted to consider Vardanyan a political prisoner to claim it as a fact. In addition, the article claims that "The US Congress has stated that he and several others have been illegally detained in violation of international laws", while it is a blatant misrepresentation of the source as was admitted by an admin at WP:AE. The US congress never said that Vardanyan was a political prisoner, senator Markey did, and he is only 1 person that does not represent the entire congress. Grand  master  10:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Do you have any further objections if I restore the original version of the intro, as discussed in my above comments? Grand  master  07:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As I said, the bogus charges shouldn't be in lead, but I'm not sure if it's even suited for the body because there are sources directly disputing the legitimacy of these "terrorism" claimed charges, including UN article :
 * "The military operation resulted also in the arrest and transfer to Baku of several prominent leaders and former leaders of the autonomous government, as well as civilian, law enforcement and military officials and troops, to be accused on vague charges of “terrorism.” The exact number and identities, legal status and conditions of detention of these persons deprived of freedom are not known as of this writing, save for the names of a handful of well-known regional leaders, several of them arrested by Azerbaijani forces before they could enter Armenia through the Lachin Corridor.... Other members of the group suffered severe bodily or mental harm in the form of arbitrary arrests that have  not been independently investigated . More importantly, the closure of the Lachin corridor subjected all members of the community to mental torture or ill-treatment that caused anxiety in relation to survival from hunger and disease (Article II (b) of the Genocide Convention)"
 * Also big deal is that Juan Mendez is a UN official.
 * And from PACE it states that the number of politically persecution in Azerbaijan ramped up in 2023 - Azerbaijan arbitrarily detaining people and pushing them through sham trials is supported in sources, this shouldn't be attributed to one US congressman, just because the article currently doesn't have other sources for it doesn't mean they don't exist, see UN above and the following too:
 * "The intensification of repression against Azerbaijani journalists, trade union activists, environmental defenders, opposition figures and prisoners of conscience since the beginning of 2023 is concerning. Notably, in the previous 12 months, the number of political prisoners in Azerbaijan has doubled from 99 to more than 200 people. The crackdown on civil society in Azerbaijan is more obvious than ever, while reprisals and political persecution by the government remain key instruments for intimidating and silencing critical voices." The government is infamous for the use of fabricated criminal charges and torture against political prisoners."
 * And others:
 * 1) "The letter signed by Aurora laureates, who include former presidents Oscar Arias of Costa Rica, Mary Robinson of Ireland, and Ernesto Zedillo of Mexico, called the arrest of Vardanyan "both outrageous and politically motivated.”
 * 2) "Numerous human rights organizations, national governments, and international bodies have called for Azerbaijan to release Ruben and the other Nagorno-Karabakh political prisoners."
 * 3) "All Armenian Men in Nagorno-Karabakh Are Now Targets for Arbitrary Detention."
 * So this is my suggestion on re-adding the bogus charges to body with appropriate WP:DUE short wording and context from sources:
 * "Vardanyan was arrested in September 2023 on unproven charges of "terrorism", during the flight of the entire Nagorno-Karabakh population. At the checkpoint, Azerbaijan carried arbitrary arrests of civilians and prominent NKR figures, in what certain political observers and human rights organiations consider fabricated or vague"
 * This is supported by UN, PACE and several other sources, let me know what you think.
 * Also political prisoner should stay in the article (I don't mind moving it to body too) per new sources such as this, we can attribute it if needed like I quoted in number 1. This isn't a "minority" view, and political prisoners in general aren't a new thing in Azerbaijan, that part about other political prisoners in general like the PACE (and many others) stated shouldn't be attributed to anybody, it's a factual statement. Vanezi (talk) 16:12, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Information about criminal charges cannot be removed from the article. We must inform the reader what exactly this person is being charged with. The fact that some sources dispute the charges does not mean that we should not explain what exactly the charges are. And the sources that you quoted do not constitute the majority. Most of them are people who received awards from Vardanyan's Aurora organization. PACE document is a letter by a few MPs that commits only those who signed. It does not represent the position of the organization itself, and it makes no mention of Vardanyan. I don't see how it is relevant here. The UN document is a letter by the Armenian government, to which Mendez's letter is annexed, and he is a former official. That is not the position of the UN itself, but personal opinion of Mendez. No major human rights organization, such as HRW or Amnesty, considers Vardanyan a political prisoner. He is not recognized as such by any supranational organization, such as UN or CoE. The overwhelming majority of the mainstream international media does not call him a political prisoner, in fact I found none that did. Some example reports that make no mention of this person being a political prisoner:     We can only attributive the political prisoner claims to the people who make them, but certainly not claim it as a fact. And your proposed wording is not Ok. Obviously, the charges remain unproven until the trial. No one is arrested on proven charges. And the rest is WP:SYNTH. We can only write that Vardanyan was detained at the border, and such and such charges were brought against him. This is a verifiable info. The position of the defense needs to be presented too, i.e. that they disagree with the charges.  Grand  master  07:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have also attributed the statement of senator Markey. Grand  master  07:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)