Talk:Ruddigore

Deleted Passage
A recent editor deleted this passage:


 * As with most Gilbert and Sullivan works, Ruddigore is not as straightforward as it first appears. It uses the form of a comedy – melodrama – to question what the meaning of Good and Evil. The Good characters are all good in rather unpleasant ways or for bad reasons, whereas the Bad Baronet is evil for relatively noble reasons. For instance he uses the results of his evil deeds to support charitable institutions. The plot summary should be read with these thoughts in mind.

There are some sensible ideas in this paragraph, but awkwardly expressed. I assume the deleting editor was concerned that it wasn't backed up by any citable source. It was simply some prior contributor's personal view of what Ruddigore is about. Marc Shepherd 18:54, 15 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, in fact that was (and is) my view of the opera. I contributed it before the current No Original Research policy was in place. It is reasonable to remove it since I doubt that any citations can be found for it. Nevertheless I believe that there is some truth in it, however awkwardly expressed. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:14, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Dear all: I added some stuff to the introduction that, I think, gives some of the flavor of what the contributor was getting at. See what you think. Ssilvers (April 26)


 * Looks fine to me. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Line assignments for the named ghosts
Thought I'd add a clarification to that odd list of ghosts. I'm not quite sure if it's quite right yet, or if it comes off a bit dismissive, which, as you can imagine, is not my intent since this is, after all, my favourite Gilbert and Sullivan opera. See what you think. Adam Cuerden 20:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I did indeed find it a bit dismissive, and reworded it a bit. Marc Shepherd 03:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. One thing that's a bit odd: All eight named ghosts were originally assigned a cast member, as seen here: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/ruddigore/html/rudd_cast.html, but it's difficult to see how the mass marrying off to ghosts would work with a mere 8 men to the standard chorus of 20, and only 5 ghosts are given business in the play, 6 if you count the bishop. Any idea what's going on?


 * The four ghosts each speak twice. Maybe originaly each of those eight little lines was given to a different cast member?  --Ssilvers 02:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't understand what the earlier commenter (who didn't sign his post) thought was so odd. The named ghosts weren't the full chorus; they were merely the ones who had individual spoken lines. Gilbert assigned the lines during rehearsal (just as directors do today), but in his libretto he didn't feel compelled to specify which ghost would say each line. Marc Shepherd 03:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * 'Twas I. Just that the count only ever reaches four shosts, plus the bishop, and many of the numbered ghosts have catch phrases. My best guess would be that the original production only had eight ghosts, but that doesn't make very much sense, if you're going to marry the maidens off to the ghosts... Ah, well. Adam Cuerden 14:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Aha! We have a canny researcher! Adam Cuerden 15:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for raising the issue. It is well documented how many choristers were at the Savoy. It was about 20 of each. I have no idea why Gilbert named only eight of them in the d.p., and then assigned the dialogue to "1st ghost" thru "4th ghost." But there are little inconsistencies like this scattered throughout Gilbert's libretti. Gilbert and Sullivan fans have had 125 years, more or less, to to puzzle over these things. Gilbert was just trying to put a show onstage.


 * I've revised the main article to reflect the fact that Gilbert did indeed assign each of the named ghosts at least one line of dialogue, thus contravening his own captions of "1st" thru "4th". I think it is safe to assume that when Gilbert wrote the libretto, he didn't particularly care who the speakers would be. In his own mind, "1st" thru "4th" meant, "I'll figure it out later." That was the luxury he had in his dual roles of both author and director. Marc Shepherd 15:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Wait... just to check, doesn't the pre-revision libretto (Ruddygore, as opposed to Ruddigore) have additional lines for the ghosts? Adam Cuerden 14:47, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It does. My comment referred to the final version of the text. I don't believe any citable source has identified how those other lines would have been allocated had they not been cut. Marc Shepherd 15:46, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Poking around on the G&S archive gives us Ian Bond's version, (with original ending complete with "Fallacy somewhere!" running gag applied to Rupert.) - How rigorous is Ian's work, or is it just a reconstruction? Adam Cuerden 03:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The article already has a section describing the various versions of Ruddigore, which mentions that the ghost dialogue scene was originally longer. Feel free to add to it if you think something significant has been left out, but it seems to me to cover the subject adequately. I haven't read Ian Bond's archive libretto lately, but he is usually reliable. Marc Shepherd 13:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Weel, I've revised it a bit: You can't say original production when referring to the Oxford press edition if you mean the revised act II. However, it's now perhaps a bit long. Perhaps we should shrink the text and demote it to footnote status? Adam Cuerden 19:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Edit-war on "Away, remorse!"
A recent edit settled on this footnote:


 * This recitative was originally followed by the song, "For thirty-five years I've been sober and wary". Gilbert and Sullivan were dissatisfied with this and wrote a new patter song to follow the recit: "Henceforth all the crimes that I find in the Times".  The latter is published in more of the extant scores, and is probably more often heard, although recent recordings and productions have tended to bring back the original version.  Many productions cut the recit. and song completely.  See  Versions.

To a considerable extent, this just duplicates, or states in a different way, what is already stated in the Versions section. If the Versions section is inadequate, please update that. I have to agree with Adam that, on the whole, the recitative and song (either version of it) is seldom performed. Until the Oxford edition came out, the song was not even in the Chappell vocal score, and I don't believe it came with the standard D'Oyly Carte rental parts. So it's safe to say that, in the UK at least, the song was hardly ever performed until recent times. Marc Shepherd 15:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's worth clarifying that "Away, remorse!" is, in fact, two different songs. However, a better way of doing it occurs to me! Adam Cuerden 12:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I totally disagree that it is rarely performed. That is a POV opinion. If you disagree, let's have an authoritative citation. I have reduced the comment to the facts. BTW, I know that the orchestra parts (with "Henceforth all the Crimes") was widely available for decades prior to the OUP edition. Adam, I found your edit summary to be offensive. I see and perform in a lot more G&S than you do, and not just in NY, so cut out the personal remarks. --Ssilvers 18:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I apologise, I didn't mean to be personal, I just presumed that you were lucky enough to be able to hear it regularly, whereas in the four or five times I got to see Ruddigore, a couple of them in Buxton, I haven't gotten to yet, and have only ever heard of one that included it: the Edinburgh G&S one that was on a few months before I moved here, which used "For 35 years". As well, the G&S archive mentions it not being used a few times: http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/ruddigore/discussion/cuts.html - Arthur Robinson on the song's cutting. http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/ruddigore/libretto.pdf Footnote 28: not used in D'Oyly Carte after Toye revisions, and, in addition, a few years ago I had to buy a Schimer score to get a copy of the music, since it wasn't in the Chappell. This does not give the impression of a commonly used number Adam Cuerden 11:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've revised the article to state that "Henceforth all the crimes" is omitted on all four of the professional recordings of Ruddigore published to date. That is a verifiable fact. There is very little doubt in my mind that a majority of amateur productions do omit the song, and I am surprised that Ssilvers believes otherwise. However, the article now rests on what can easily be verified as true. Marc Shepherd 13:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Adam. I am sure that I over-reacted. Marc, one should not point out that the recordings omitted the number without also pointing out that the Schirmer score, which was the commonly used score in the US, included the number. Also, didn't the famous NSW recording included "For Thirty-Five Years"? I would agree with the statement that the number was "often" omitted, or even "usually" omitted prior to the OUP publication. Now, I am not sure that it is even "usually" omitted, but I would still agree with a statement that it is "often" omitted. Can you guys live with that? Also, one more thing, Adam, would you kindly do me a personal favor by refraining from using the word "whilst" in articles? Even though we are using UK spellings in the G&S articles, we do not need to use "whilst", when the synonymous "while" is correct in all English-speaking countries. --Ssilvers 16:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That footnote needed to go on a diet. I've shortened it, and tried to incorporate all of the relevant material in the main text. Marc Shepherd 18:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, good. I removed the reference to "either side of the Atlantic", which I think would have made sense when it was just a Chappell vs. Schirmer issue, but now, with OUP available everywhere, as well as "first night" texts being used, all bets are off, and I think we should just say "there is no standard performing text" if there ever was one. Also, the Blue Hill Troupe did "For Thirty-Five Years" as early as its 1992 production, and I doubt it was alone.

From my SavoyNet poll so far, it appears that in the decades prior to the OUP edition, many university productions and many "well-financed" amateur groups (at least in the US), as well as NYGASP, did "Henceforth all the crimes", while smaller amateur groups and most professional groups generally cut the number altogether. In Australia, so far it appears that "Henceforth all the crimes" was fairly often done. So the orchestra parts must have been readily available. Why does the article say it was "not available"? --Ssilvers 19:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with "often". As for whilst... Well... I'll try, but there is a very good reason why I use whilst: because I was when younger for some reason, never able to pronounce while. But whilst, if pronunced with short i, I can easily. Hence, once I moved to Britain, I gleefully dropped while. So "while" isn't really in my vocabulary, even if I'm fully capable of pronuncing it now. Adam Cuerden 20:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Marc's latest edit has solved my problem, and I think the "Away remorse" discussion is OK now. --Ssilvers 14:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Ah, well, debating these shades of meaning makes for better articles. And makes me really jealous of you, I might add. Adam Cuerden 14:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Song list
Have added in significant parts of the Act I finale, in line with procedure hit upon for H.M.S. Pinafore (people were having trouble finding some of the more famous songs from it in the list of songs, so it was agreed to list all significant parts. Not quite so important with Ruddigore, which only has the one big ensemble piece not broken into smaller numbers, but I'm trying to do it for consistancy over all 14 operas. Adam Cuerden 12:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't it start off with the words, "Finale Act I..."? --Ssilvers 18:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point! Fixed! By the way, I don't have my scores to hand - what's the time signatures of the Act I finale "Oh, happy the lily" and the Act II finale one? I know they're different, but can't think off hand how. (It'd be useful when discussing the Toye revision to the Act II finale Adam Cuerden 10:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll try to remember to check this when I get home. --Ssilvers 16:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Revisions
The revisions section is, in my opinion, somewhat clunky and inefficient, since instead of, for instance, dealing with the changes from Ruddygore to Ruddigore, it instead lists everything that would be changed from the first night, then GOES BACK AND LISTS IT ALL AGAIN, saying what changed. It alright if I poke about with it to make it flow better? The Toye version probably needs its own section, but we only need two sections, not three bulleted lists. Adam Cuerden 13:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that it would be better to combine the first two lists. --Ssilvers 00:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Just be careful. There are three distinct versions. In combining them, you could very well end up confusing all but those who are already familiar with the background. If anything, a fourth list is needed (to describe pre-production variants). Marc Shepherd 19:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think I've managed it. I've left the Toye variants in their own section, but since the First night list and revisions during the initial run were essentially the same material divided into two, I combined them. Adam Cuerden 18:23, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I made some copy edits and said that the Margaret, Desp., Robin scene before No. 23 was also shortened. Or was that done at another time?  Marc, take a look and see if you agree with what we did.  --Ssilvers 20:04, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think there are some mistakes, but rather than guess at it, I'll wait till I have my references at hand. Marc Shepherd 20:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I hope that any mistakes were there, but are just more noticable now. I was trying to be very careful about it. Oh, well! It needed to be done sooner or later, and at least we're all here to catch any errors I may have introduced. Adam Cuerden 20:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Commas
There were rather a number of incorrect commas in this article, which I have removed. Here's why I think they're wrong:

''The recitative, "Away, remorse!" (No. 21a), led into the patter song "For thirty-five years I've been sober and wary."''

It is perfectly correct to list several terms to describe the same thing divided by commas, or to add a clarification set off by commas. For instance, "I, Adam Cuerden, am adding a clarification of my name to this sentence." However, the parentheses are themselves substituting for commas here:

The recitative, "Away, remorse!", No. 21a, led into the patter song "For thirty-five years I've been sober and wary."

E.g "I, Adam Cuerden, the creator of this talk section, am adding further clarifications to this sentence."

However, it looks better with the parentheses as this is a fairly minor clarification. But the fact that we have a parenthetical minor addition changes the rhythm of the phrase - when reading it aloud, one would pause as such:

The recitative "Away, remorse" (pause) No. 21a (pause) led into the patter song "For thirty-five years I've been sober and wary.

Hence, it's better to consider things like "The recitative" and "The patter song" as adjectival phrases, hence not needing commas, when adding the numbers in parentheses, in my opinion. (There were also a few commas that were just wrong, I fear, but this is the more controversial revision)

Adam Cuerden 14:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Act II Finale
Am I right in thinking that many sources - including the OUP version - suggest a mix of Sullivan ("When a man has been") and Toye (6/8 "Oh happy the lily") in the Act II Finale? If so, this is worth mentioning, but if it's only an occassional thing, it's not. Adam Cuerden 10:43, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No, I don't think you have this right. OUP PV score does not discuss the Toye version at all.  It restores all Toye cuts and shows the material cut during the original run.  I think you are wrong when you write: The original Act II finale, "When a man has been a naughty baronet", was replaced with a shortened reprise of the version of "Oh, happy the lily" from the Act I finale (in 9/8, instead of "When a man has been"'s 4/4 vesion).  I'm not sure what Toye did to the Act II finale (if anything).  What you are describing, but not correctly, is what happened during the original run, I think.  I don't think we should be editing this Version stuff without a good source handy to check, because it is very specific.   --Ssilvers 13:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * ...Yes. I think you're right, and shall defer to editing by others on this subject, as it's easy to get confused. Adam Cuerden 13:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

However...
''The original finale was unusual, in that it was one of the few times Gilbert and Sullivan included material in a finale that had not been heard earlier in the opera. Sullivan must have liked "When a man has been a naughty baronet," as it was quoted in the overture. Since this passage was dropped from the finale in the 1920s revision, it was also eliminated in the revised overture.''

...Actually, this is reasonably common in G&S: Thespis, Trial by Jury, Sorcerer, Pirates of Penzance, Yeomen, Gondoliers, and Utopia all contain material not heard earlier before a repeat (Utopia, of course, lacks a repeat). Half the operas is not a "very few times". It is unusual for containing such a short repeat, and for a significant change to it, but that's not quite what's being said. Also, the transition to "Sullivan must have liked" is awkward. Ah, well.Adam Cuerden 14:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I suggest deleting the quoted sentences. --Ssilvers 16:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought the meaning was obvious, but I've revised the "offending" passage to make it clearer. Marc Shepherd 16:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Clearer, yes, but is it right?. There is lots of new music in the Yeomen Act II finale, and I think Adam is right that there is a significant amount of new music at the very end of the Pirates Act II finale and the Gondoliers Act II finale. I can't speak to Thespis! --Ssilvers 16:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

To go through them all:
 * Thespis: Begins at "We can't stand this" or so, none of it seems to fit the rhythm of anything heard previously until we hit the Railway song reprise. Additional content: "We can't stand this", "Jupiter, Mars and Apollo have quitted the dwellings of man", "Let us remain we beg of you pleadingly, and various interjections by Jupiter, etc.
 * Trial by Jury: New: "Oh joy unbounded". Quoted section: end of "When I, good friends"
 * Sorcerer: New: "Or I or he must die", ending chords Quoted: Recit and "Now to the banquet we press"
 * Pirates: New: "Sighing softly to the river", "Now what is this and what is that", "With base deceit", AND "We triumph now". Quotes: a little of the Maj-Gen's song, and Poor wand'ring one. It may be possible to argue the first one or two new sections don't count as part of the Finale, but I'd find it hard to accept ALL of them don't count.
 * Ruddigore: New: "When a man has been a naughty baronet". Quoted, possibly with changes, "Oh happy the lily"
 * Yeomen: New: "Comes the pretty young bride", "They say that joy in true perfection", "Hold pretty one", "oh day of terror", "Leonard my loved one", and the last "Heighdy"s after the repeat. Quoted: "I have a song to sing-O!"
 * Gondoliers: Even presuming "Here is a case unprecedented doesn't count, we still have "Now let the loyal lieges gather round", Inez's recit., "This statement we receive", and "When others claimed your dainty hand", before the repeated secion: "We're called Gondoleiri" and "Dance a cachucha" (I'm afraid I'm weak on Gondoliers, and so can't recall idf 2Hail, O King of the Golden Land" is a repeat or new"
 * Utopia: New: "There's a little group of isles" Quoted: None.

That's either 7 out of 14, or 6 out of 13 if we remove Thespis. If I'm wrong, please explain how. Adam Cuerden 18:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Patience, my friend. I don't think you gave Marc enough time to respond to your review of the finales above.  I think that maybe Marc can make some kind of case that "after the denoument" (which is sometimes embedded right in the finales), there is "usually" a reprise and not much new music.  Anyhow, I also don't like the remaining sentence about cutting "When a man" from the overture:  I think that it goes without saying that, if he cut it from the Act II finale, Toye would not have put it into his new overture.  I'm going to wait and let Marc look at this again.  In the meantime, may I suggest that the details of the "version" discussions in the operas is perhaps less of a priority than, say, creating a new article on Princess Toto or one of the other tasks on the "to do" list?  Regards, --Ssilvers 22:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Aye, I didn't quite mean to preempt Marc from the statement forever, but the second half of that section wasn't fitting comfortably with the first, so I moved it up above (agreed that it needs more rephrasing than I could do), and my logic was "Well, it needs rewritten anyway, I kind of see what Marc's getting at, but the revisions aren't working, so maybe if it starts from scratch it'll come out." ... Maybe I should just make a rule for myself: No edits when exhausted.
 * Mainly concentrating on the operas because I can do a bit of work on them between studying. Making new articles, or working on my adopted W.S.Gilbert article is a wee bit less appropriate as a respite. And needs more mental powers than anyone has after working out things like "On white skins a classic macropapular rash appeared between days 5 and 7. Beginning on the face and trunk, it soon spread centrifugally to the arms and legs. It was often apparent against a pronounced erythema on the back, face and arms. The rash was not itchy ans was fallowed after 3-4 dats by a fine desquamation" Adam Cuerden 23:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Adam, the key words are "Once the plot was resolved." Leaving aside Thespis, all of your counter-examples occur while the story is still in progress. For Thespis, of course, since we do not have the music, we cannot know what was a reprise, although we know it ends with a reprise of the railroad song. Marc Shepherd 13:01, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That makes sense, though I think you'd still have to count Trial by Jury the playout of Sorcerer (unless it's from earlier, and I'm mistaken), Ruddigore, last few "Heighdy"s of Yeomen, "This statement we receive" from Gondoliers, and "There's a little group of Isles" from Utopia. Yes, the Sorcerer and Yeomen are much shorter than the others and tacked on to the end of a previous piece, but...
 * I see your distinction, but must admit that I don't think the language that you'd have to use to describe it can be simplified enough to be worth mentioning in a general article. Adam Cuerden 21:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"Sullivan liked the tune enough to include it in the original overture, but as it was deleted in the 1920s revision, it also was omitted in Geoffrey Toye's revised overture." I agree with the sentence, but do think it's oddly placed where it keeps getting returned to. It's a thought that just doesn't flow out of what came before: We get a description of the changes to the finale, then a digression to talk about how unusual the finale is, then leap back to a description of the original version and changes to it. Can't it be rearranged better than that? Adam Cuerden 10:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The point isn't that important, and as you're uncomfortable with it, I've deleted it entirely. Marc Shepherd 13:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)


 * More uncomfortable with the way it's phrased and the interruption of the flow of the section. Point is valid enough. Adam Cuerden 17:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Roderic vocal range
Hitherto Roderic has been listed as a bass-baritone. I contend that this is misleading. His lowest notes are two brief low A-flats in "There grew a little flower", and he doesn't tend strongly towards even this not-particularly-low lower end of his range. Other characters who have similarly low notes, such as Ko-Ko in The Mikado who has two low Gs, are called baritones. I can only suppose that the idea that he's a bass-baritone comes from his first being played by Richard Temple and later by the likes of Donald Adams, but Temple also created Strephon in Iolanthe, usually (including on Wikipedia) deemed a baritone, and played Giuseppe in The Gondoliers, quite definitely a baritone. In any case, the decider should be the character's range, not who has played him. Ou tis 23:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have cast this show many times. Roderic must be a vocally commanding figure, like the stone guest in Don Giovanni.  He is often played by a bass, but usually a bass-baritone.  A lighter baritone does not have the vocal weight for the role.  Note that Roderic's high note is only a D, and the tessitura of the role is low. -- Ssilvers 02:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah! but, my good sir, you mustn't tell me what you've done how often — it's not evidence. With all respect, what you have given me is only your point of view as to what Roderic should sound like. Our only Wikipedian evidence is the character's range in the score. Roderic, as you say, doesn't have any very high notes, but neither does he have any very low ones, and those Ds are more frequent than those low A-flats. Ou tis 22:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear Ou tis, I hate to disagree about so small a point, but I disagree not only with your conclusions about the vocal range for this character (as noted above) but also with your statement that the high and low notes written for the character are the only evidence of what sort of voice should be, or typically is, used in this role. I believe that we can (and since we disagree about the musical analysis, must) rely on the evidence of the numerous recordings from the D'Oyly Carte Opera Company and the other well-known recordings of Ruddigore from professional companies, all of whom have chosen a bass or bass-baritone for this role. -- Ssilvers 23:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, on reflection you are right, I think I'll say, to argue in this kind of way. Happy editing! Ou tis 21:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Ou tis, thanks again for your various contributions in the past to the G&S project. I hope you will contribute further. If you look at the to do list at WP:G&S, you'll see a list of articles still needed.... Best regards, -- Ssilvers 21:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Succession
I altered the existing text which stated that Despard had become baronet on the "death" of his older brother, twenty years previously. This is not borne out by the text. Robin says that he left "at the prospect" of inheriting the baronetcy, indicating that it had not yet happened. In fact, Robin continues to say that Despard "succeeded to the title." Roderic later states that he died "ten years ago" (presumably just after the painting was done, as it has "been painted ten years."). This accords with Hannah's statement that Roderic had died "ten years since." I don't think Richard went to sea until after Roderic's death, as he is fully acquainted with Robin's situation even though he went to sea "ten long years" previously. Busy times in Rederring, ten years ago.--Wehwalt 21:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * LOL! Margaret's entire entrance scene had been left out of the summary, and Old Adam had not been introduced.  I added something, but I haven't sat with this synopsis.  Feel free to see if anything else is missing (without making it much longer, since I think it's already pretty long).  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 22:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe a little time as I am about to leave on a lengthy tour, but I'll do what I can. This article needs a little work on the reasons for the changes and whatnot, and when I have the leisure, I'll put in some quotes and refs.--Wehwalt 13:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it could definitely stand some well-referenced analysis. Thanks in advance for doing the research. -- Ssilvers 14:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry it took so long, but I've mined the Allen book for the first night reaction.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Good work, thanks. I moved the Allen ref to the references at the bottom "References" section and combined some short paragraphs. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:26, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. You should check the NY Times archives, it is now free and online.  I looked at the actual review, and the review of the dress rehearsal (which is very interesting, I'm sure G&S didn't know the guy was a reporter and so he couldn't take notes and comes out with mistakes like calling Despard "Jasper" (not an uncommon name for bad guys in melodrama) and refers to "Rose Maybird".)  You might want to help me in cleaning up the references there, it is not my strongest point.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:59, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Roderic's entrance

 * I do not think it is a notable change to the show that Roderic may have come from somewhere other than the picture frame at some point in a Gilbert-authorized production. This change has not stuck.  Did Gilbert even change the stage directions?  If you really think it's of any consequence, I suggest that a footnote would be better, with a citation.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 22:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it is consequential. The libretto from the first night (again, the Allen book) states, after Robin's lines calling for his uncle while he is being chased by Hannah:

(Roderic appears, rising through trap as far as his waist. Red flames accompany him.) Sir Roderic. What is the matter? Have you carried her off? Robin. I have--she is there--look at her--she terrifies me! Come quite up and save me

a few lines later:

Sir Roderic: Has he treated you with proper respect since you've been here, Nannikin? Hannah: Pretty well, dear. Come quite up, dear Sir Roderic. No, I don't think I shall. Robin. No, I don't think you should.

and after Robin's "scrupulously correct" speech

Hannah. There now--come up, dear! Sir Roderic. (reluctantly) Very well, but you don't deserve it, you know. (comes up)

It is probably the reason for Hannah asking Roderic if he is pretty comfortable. Allen comments in discussing the changes from Ruddygore to Ruddigore: " . . . and Sir Roderic's entrance, when summoned by his terrified nephew, is not made through a trap, but by stepping down from his portrait"--Wehwalt 23:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Ah. I thought you were saying exactly the opposite.  I have tried to clarify the article text.  See if I am correctly describing what you say here.  -- Ssilvers 23:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It is fine. Roderic's entrance has, shall I just say, evolved. I have a book (before the final reference to "Gideon Crawle" was expunged) that has him rise from the trap in the libretto, but without the dialogue I've cited.--Wehwalt 23:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

mad scene
Shouldn't Mad Margaret's number be related to the genre it parodies? --Wetman 03:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I added a link in the article. Is that what you were suggesting?  Best regards, -- Ssilvers 03:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Add Cultural impact section
The last paragraph of the Background section The number "My eyes are fully open" (with some changed lyrics) is used in Papp's production of The Pirates of Penzance. The tune of the song is also used as "The Speed Test" in the 2002 musical Thoroughly Modern Millie. doesn't seem like background material at all, since it happened much later. I suggest moving it to a new section "Cultural impact" after the current Adaptations section, which is how H.M.S._Pinafore handles comparable. (The_Pirates_of_Penzance does the same, but with "Cultural impact" before, not after, Adaptations, while The_Mikado puts cultural impact after, but calls it "The Mikado in popular culture". Seems like there's no standard.) -- StevenDoerfler (talk) 07:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, if we had a good "cultural impact" section, like Pinafore does, it would go there. The problem with "cultural impact" sections is that they tend to become lists of WP:trivia.  Believe me, the HMS Pinafore "cultural impact" section was a bear to research and write and caused numerous disagreements over the past year.  This article, Ruddigore, is less well-developed than some of our G&S articles, and it is certainly not on my list to expand any time soon.  I don't see that there's a problem with this information where it is, unless you want to research and write a really good "cultural impact" section.  If you have the urge to improve the article, though, what it really needs is expansion with more research about the background, critical reception, themes and satire, analysis of the music, etc.  Once all this is done, then I think this factoid would naturally find a niche somewhere.  But I think that worrying now about where this goes is not productive.  Best regards, -- Ssilvers (talk) 14:06, 22 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I would tend to agree with Ssilvers. The suggested info is certainly trivial.  If you can show actual influence on later works, rather than just a borrowing, then go for it.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:12, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Notes on Leslie Baily: The Gilbert & Sullivan Book.
First off, it's obvious I'm going to have to ty and improve the images for this - Leslie Baily shows a tiny version of a wonderful 1887 Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News scene, and some sketches from the Feb 5 1887 eedition. We already use a tiny version of the Illustrated London News' illustration. If we get those in large size, and maybe the colour lead image, if possible, I think that it'd pull Ruddigore nearer the strong coverage we have for our other FAs.

Baily p. 289 quotes a diary entry of Sullivan's that may be useful, but which lacks a date [commas added to Baily's commentary, for clarity - he has a very unusual writing style, which is quite difficult enough, methinks, on its own]:

...everywhere in Society, Sullivan, in his turn, was shown-off by the elegant Mrs. Ronalds - at race meetings in the spring, yaughting at Cowes in the Summer [...] at concerts and theatres she loved to parade her lion. Then one day, Gilbert and D'Oyly Carte called at Sullivan's rooms to remind him of Ruddygore
 * Sullivan's diary:
 * Gilbert attacked me for delay in new piece - gave it him back - finally arranged to defer production of new opera until September or October.

He also comments on the incongruity of Sullivan composing it at the same time as The Golden Legend (cantata) (same page) - but I'd like to discuss that with a better source, if available.

Quoted letter from Gilbert to Sullivan (again undated!):

I congratulate you heartily on the success of the Cantata which appears from all accounts to be the biggest thing you've done [...] I don't expect you will want to turn to our work at once without any immediate rest, but if you do I can come up any day and go through the MS with you.

Also a lot of good quotes for the Golden Legend article, but let that pass for now.

Baily p. 293: uniforms of 20 britih regiments used (by Bucks & Blades, presumably)  - inspected for accuracy by Sir Arthur Herbert, Deputy Quartermaster of the British Army.

Same: "One little problem was that of making Sullivan's baton visible when the stage was blacked-out for the Ancestors' reincarnation. Phosphorescent paint proving unsuccessful, a glass tube baton containing a platinum wire which glowed a dull red was devised" - Baily's source for this information given as "The Siemens Magazine" of 1927; I don't imagine we'll track that down, unless you run into that large library near you, S.

Brilliant quote from Durward Lely's mmemoirs (Baily p. 293-4). Evidently, he commented about a hornpipe after Richard's entrance song, was asked if he could dance one, he was sent to a dance master, it seems he could, Sullivan wrote a hornpipe. Evidently some of the touring companys' tenors hated him for that. Interesting musical analysis of the hornpipe.

Baily 294-6 Some useful quotes from press criticism, etc. Useful! Will type these up later. Poke me if I don't.

B. 296: Figaro incident. We have this in better sources. Lytton taking over for the incapacitated Grossmith, wins over audiences. - Useful if checked. "Kensington Gore" joke presented as a serious suggestion?! Illustration from something called "The Queen" - never heard of that newspaper, doubt any access to it available. 297. Gilbert's pun about "Ruddy complexion / bloody cheek".

p. 298: Bond & Barrington perform "I once was a very abandoned person" for Prince of Wales.

And that's it for the main section on Ruddigore.

Baily p. 450: Bombing of London severely damaged Ruddigore sets & costumes, not performed again until 1948.

Baily p. 23: Praises Toye's massacre of Ruddigore. I mean, changes. [Do you mean 423? SS]

Baily p. 436 - Old Ruddigore overture "inadequate"

Baily 434: Merest mention of Ruddigore returning to the stage in 1920.

As can be seen, Baily is going to be a much better source of quotes than for any real discussion based on his versions of events. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 00:37, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Notes on S.J. Adair Fitz-Gerald: The Story of the Savoy Operas

 * p.127-28: Documents several versions of the ruddy complexion /bloody cheek joke.
 * 128: Discussion of why Ruddygore was found offensive: It was youth slang of the day.
 * 129: Press criticism
 * 130: Quotes an obscure Bab Ballad, almost certainly a source for When the Night Wind Howls, likewise, mentions one for "I know a Youth.
 * 131-2: Figaro incident.
 * 132-4: Geraldine Ulmar's understudying; gets starring role in Yeomen; Lytton understudies for Grossmith - also becomes star. Good opera to be an understudy in!
 * 134-5: Burlesque of Ruddigore performed in 1887 Ruddy George. Watched by W. S. Gilbert. Evidently very, very unfunny.  Revived in London in 2011 with Simon Moss.
 * 135-36: Revival of Ruddigore, strong success, added to repetoire.

Matter Patter song
An episode of Spitting Image in season 5 portrayed Labour leader Neil Kinnock singing new lyrics to the tune, supported by members of his shadow cabinet. I'll add this info to the article called Cultural Influence of Gilbert and Sullivan. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Ruddy George
Does this burlesque of the burlesque deserve a mention on the page? Simon Moss had a production a year or two ago in Buxton, and published a libretto, and a couple of books mention this play in passing. It might be of some value in the intro to the opera.Slfarrell (talk) 22:13, 27 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Sure, one or two sentences would be a good idea, along the lines of: "A Victorian burlesque of the opera, titled Ruddy George, written by x and x, premiered at the X Theatre in 1887 and ran for x performances. Starring x, its parody focused on [aspects of the Riddigore that it parodied].[citations]"    We should not mention the recent revival, which was an amateur revival.  BTW, I disagree that Ruddigore is a burlesque.  It satirises some elements of Victorian Melodrama.  The reason that Punch called it a burlesque was because F. C. Burnand, the editor of Punch, took every opportunity to try to trivialize Gilbert's work.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 07:02, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


 * That sounds simple enough. I'll get round to it. What section would be the best for this addition? Slfarrell (talk) 18:40, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


 * How about adaptations? Or could rename it "Works based on Ruddigore", if you don't feel it's an "adaptation"....  -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:00, 28 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I dropped it in 'adaptations'. I don't have enough info to say much about it, and I thought if it has its own section, it will detract from the article of the opera. The ins and outs of the story and its parodies of G&S would require an explanation, and it's really not worth that much trouble. Slfarrell (talk) 21:41, 30 April 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, looks good, but I added info about what year it premiered, and in what theatre. -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:43, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Reception section
I removed the image of the long contemporary review, but I kept the highlighted quote from it. A balanced sample of the contemporary reviews should be summarized in a reception section, but they should not be set forth in full or added as image files. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:05, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Minor correction to Versions section
"Robin's Act I patter song "My boy, you may take it from me" (No. 7) has a shortened introduction, and repeats with Richard were deleted." This is inaccurate: in the original version, the introduction is repeated before each verse. In the revised version, it occurs (in full) only at the beginning and is thereafter omitted. The last repeat with Richard is in fact included and ends the song. Kostaki mou (talk) 20:41, 11 August 2015 (UTC)


 * OK, agreed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:18, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

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