Talk:Rudolf, Crown Prince of Austria

Secrets d'histore
Program of TV2 France retransmitted TV5 Monde Sat 5 Sep 2009 Academics claimed he was a philanderer for whom sex was a sport, for which he kept records of his conquests. Apparently he caught syphilis at an early age, and suffered from the mercury treatment then standard medication. The pistol had been discharged all six shots, and did not belong to Rudolf. The body of Marie was stolen in 1989, and later recovered by police, identified and examined by V. University. The identity was confirmed. no bullet wounds were found on her body. she had been battered to death around the head. The death is discussed at some length, but I have not found the script —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timpo (talk • contribs) 17:32, 5 September 2009. I do not speak enough French or have any interest to do this research. I hope someone might find it useful. Program is called "Rudolfe, fils de Sissi" (Elizabeth of Bav nickname)Timpo (talk) 02:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

STD
It was rumored, that Rudolf suffered from a veneral dissease. However, this is a serious charge and should be supported by reliable evidence, such as, e.g., a quote from a medical journal. Also, Schonbrun's medical archives are now open. I would like to know myself, but could not find evidence on this in any serious books on this topics. If you provide the evidence, I'll gladly revert my edit and remove the accuracy tag. David Cruise 21:00, 22 September 2005 (UTC).Removed the accuracy flag.Cruise 00:28, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Incompleteness
About 99% of this article is about nothing but his death. There's nothing about his early life, any functions of state he may have attended, international affairs, anything. 68.39.174.238 07:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Succession
Why was his daughter not considered heir to the throne, as had been the case with Maria Theresa, his ancestress and empress?Mowens35 18:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Austria used semi-salic succession rules. See Salic law article. An exception was made that allowed Maria Theresa to get the throne.  See the article Pragmatic Sanction of 1713. WikiParker 21:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Stephanie's photo on Mary's final letter
Warning: This photo shows Royal Princess Stephanie of Belgium, wife (widow) of Crown Prince Rudolf of Austria, and NOT the baroness Mary Vetsera. See and compare different photos of Mary and Stephanie in enwiki, dewiki, huwiki, also in Commons. Akela3 19:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Corrected. WikiParker 11:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Murder or Suicide
If one accepts these new allegations that the deaths of Crown Prince Rudolf and Baroness Vetsera were not a double suicide, then how does one explain the numerous suicide notes left by the pair? Baroness Vetsera left notes to her mother and to her sister, and Rudolf also left several. It is noted by historians that Emperor Franz Joseph was particularly hurt by the fact that his son had left him no farewell note, but had written to others. One wonders if handwriting experts have examined these letters? Surely Baroness Vetsera's family would recognize forged suicide letters?


 * Indeed, I'm sure this is one reason why no serious historians doubt the generally accepted story that it was a double suicide. john k 05:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I believe that Zita was telling the truth that Rudolph did not comit suicide. One can argue that this whole suicide story was a plot against the Habsburgs in order to hurt the family's name and therefore hurt the country. It could have been a situation in which someone was pointing a pistol at Rudolph and Mary and forced them to write sucide notes. What would their motives have been had they comitted suicide? Weren't they happy toghether? The claims that Zita made might have been passed down the Habsurg family secrectly and she was the first to open the subject to public. Not only did Zita claim this, but so did most of her children. Although they did not make a claim publicly I can assure to you, they strongly believe that this was not a suicide.


 * Alterative?


 * I suggest you look up which year Zita was born.Eregli bob (talk) 08:49, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

That Rudolf killed Vetsera in a mad rage {the blows to the head} and tried to commit suicide but prehaps retainer{s} came in and tried to stop him; in the struggle the retianers gun goes off and kills Rudolf {the guns not his}. As regarding the number of wounds in Rudolf could they have been through and through bullets-possibly 3 instead of 6? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.53.145.102 (talk) 12:31, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I removed the section because it's a conspiracy theory and there were no sources at all. --Otberg (talk) 08:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Baroness Mary Vetsera shot or beaten to death?

This article claims that Rudolf shot Mary in the head, but the article about her makes it clear that Dr. Holler did not find traces of a penetration hole when he scrutinized Mary Vetsera's skull in 1945. --Couprie (talk) 15:23, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Catholic Canonic Law on Suicide
Although when at the time Crown Prince Rudolf committed suicide the Catholic Church in fact deemed that a person that committed suicide may not receive a religious funeral. It is important to mention that this canon is no longer in effect. The Catholic Church now deems suicide as the final chapter of mental illness, and therefore, the a person that commits suicide may now receive full Catholic rites.


 * I don't see that it's that important to mention that the rule is no longer in effect. The important thing is what the rule was at the time. john k 05:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Cross-linking
I'm not quite sure how, but this page should probably link to, and coordinate information with, the page on the Mayerling_Incident, or merge, or something.

Feyandstrange 07:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC) The statements of ex empress Zita cannot be believed. She was an overpious woman, more of a bigot than anything else. Her claim that George Clemenceau commissioned the murder of Rudolf is plain nonsense. Rudolf was pro French and wanted his father to stop the pro Prussian politics. Zita spent her life in a reality alienated way. Her interview (you can watch it on you tube) is prove to it. Her son Otto did never comment on it and the meaning of the other archdukes is not important and of no historical value. If they would have proof of their allegations they would gladly open their house archive in Schloss Wallsee. But to this day no historian has been allowed to consult it. Why? It is easy to understand.... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Claude victor (talk • contribs) 02:54, 16 July 2014 (UTC)

Latest evidence of suicide
On 31 July 2015 the Austrian National Library issued copies of Vetsera's letters of farewell to her mother and other family members. These letters, previously believed lost or destroyed, were found in a safe deposit box in an Austrian bank, where they were deposited in 1926. The letters - written in Mayerling shortly before the deaths - state clearly amd unambiguously that Vetsera was preparing to commit suicide alongside Rudolf, out of "love". They will be made available to scholars and are likely to be exhibited in public in 2016.

Copies of the letters (and complete transcriptions) are available via the press release from the Austrian National Library (German).

Testbed (talk) 12:06, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Doubtful relevance
''The current Archduke Rudolf, son of Archduke Carl Ludwig of Austria (1918–2007), has disputed this version of events, asserting that Rudolf was in fact assassinated by Freemasons. [10] ''
 * – Having read the reference, and various accounts of the Mayerling deaths, I seriously doubt the veracity of this assertion, particularly in light of the previous post. Suggest the sentence be deleted as irrelevant. – Sca (talk) 14:41, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Hearing no objections, deleted. – Sca (talk) 22:16, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

The assertion is made by a member of the Hapsburg family, cites the source directly, and is not likely to be included in other sources because of its obvious sensitivity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Javon96 (talk • contribs) 13:03, 23 July 2019 (UTC) There is nothing disruptive about reinstating relevant and sourced information. The only disruptive editing is its constant removal.Javon96 (talk) 07:03, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

These are the assertions of a member of the royal family itself. It's absurd to consider this obscure or irrelevent. This is like not including the testimony of Nicole Brown Simpson on the OJ trial page because it's a fringe view now that the trial is over. These edits stood for years until this present concerted effort to whitewash any mention of a suggested masonic role in historical events. Javon96 (talk) Javon96 (talk) 20:32, 23 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Is this is the story that is tied up with supposed 1889 Hungarian coup attempt? That story has been circulated for a long time, and lacks clear documentation.  I think it is irrelevant Fringe conspiracy theory.  I can provide sources on its origins if anyone likes. -- Work permit (talk) 21:36, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

For other editors, here the quote from the youtube interview that is in question:

‘Basically most of the — most recent historians changed their minds now — especially in France, it's quite interesting. Two things, basically, or two or three things. I asked my grandmother [ Zita of Bourbon-Parma] about it, to start with. She told me that when she was very young and married, Emperor Franz Joseph liked her very much, so she went to him and asked him. And he had imposed on himself not to speak for one hundred years, that it should not be revealed. But then he told her: "One of your aunts" — I don't remember the name of that one, she told of my grandmother — "asked the same questions the day after the death of Archduke Rudolf. Go and ask her what I told her." ‘So obviously my grandmother ran to see that person. And that old aunt said, "When the Emperor told me, before the coffin was closed, when I pay my respects, I should bow over the coffin and touch the hands of the Archduke." And she said she did it. And there were nothing in — there was nothing in the gloves. And when you look at the little room in Mayerling, you can see that with a hatchet the door was opened. So if somebody has his hands cut off — and this was probably pushing on the other side — there is no way you can shoot a bullet through your brain. ‘Now the other thing is that the archives of the Vatican have opened since. And not all the documents are there; but the main reason was that Emperor Francis Joseph, ah, wanted his son to be buried, ah, on church ground. But he couldn't, because he had committed [air quotes] "officially" suicide. So the Emperor had to explain to the Pope why he wanted it. Now why was the official version suicide? It's because Rudolf had had, sadly enough, had bad frequentations, especially with the Freemasons. The Freemasons asked him, after a few years, to do two things. The first thing was to destroy the Catholic Church in the Empire; which Archduke Rudolf, who wasn't the most best person, was ready to do. And then to push aside his father; and that he did not want to do. And that, probably, sealed his death. ‘So those are the reasons why I say it. Thank you.’

This is much more weakly documented then the other Freemason-Rudolf conspiracy theories I have seen, theories which have been debunked. Here, all we have is third hand hearsay evidence (the unnamed aunt told the grandmother told the archduke) that Rudolf was buried with no hands. Regarding the freemason connection, we don't even have that.---- Work permit (talk) 22:45, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

One must consider the source, as these are royalty and not common folk. Certainly sensitive information is guarded by such families for particular purposes. In any case, it is unclear why no reference should be made to their claims at all. Javon96 (talk) 11:47, 3 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Let us consider the source. The individual is a descendant of the royal family.  He is not a historian.  He worked at an investment management firm.  He not notable as has not been covered in any manner by significant third party publications.  The youtube citation is a lecture he gave.  It is not a statement made in a notable, reliable publication. It fails wp:rs.


 * Let us consider the evidence. His self reported evidence for this theory is third hand heresay. Specifically, his (unnamed) great grand aunt told his grandmother told him that Rudolf was buried with no hands.


 * We don't add FRINGE to articles based on one lecture by a non-notable non-scholar citing third hand heresay.


 * He did however state most recent historians changed their minds now . Who are those historians?  If you could track them down, we could discuss those historians and their views. ---- Work permit (talk) 13:37, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

One editor continues to insist on adding this material, ignoring the views of two editors and ignoring any attempt at reaching a consensus. So I have marked the passage as a way to create a compromise. I have no objections if other editors delete the entire sentence. ---- Work permit (talk) 02:25, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Another editor has (correctly) deleted the passage with my proposed comprise. There is no basis to include this sentence.---- Work permit (talk) 21:59, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

poor
poor guy died when he was less then 35. Me.amoksbqaz (talk) 19:39, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Pick a disease
The articles about the Crown Prince, the Mayerling incident and the Crown princess do not all agree on what disease was the cause of infertility in the Royal couple. They list syphilis, gonorrhea, and venereal disease in different articles. Surely we can be more accurate. 96.63.144.121 (talk) 06:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC)