Talk:Rudolf Berthold

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Honors section
Hello, all,

I was unable to unravel the difference between the two Saxon medals; they may be either identical and/or differing versions of the same award.

Also, it seems likely that Berthold was awarded a wound badge, which required being WIA three or more times. The trick is finding proof of it so it can be cited.

Possibly something to add in the future.

Georgejdorner (talk) 19:15, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 17 November 2013

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was already moved the day after the request was made. Though it's unclear the mover knew of the request, given the unanimous support below, nothing needs to be done.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:26, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Rudolph Berthold → Rudolf Berthold – The spelling of the aviator's first name is Rudolf, not Rudolph. Ian Rose (talk) 13:35, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Support as requester. Uncontroversial, cited sources confirm spelling, but the redirect's existence requires admin intervention. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:38, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Support. As the most recent editor working on the article, I found that the authoritative texts used "Rudolf", and requested help from Ian.Georgejdorner (talk) 17:28, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Support - clear primary, but please remember to hatnote to the footballer stub. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:11, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Support move as this clearly is the correct name for this aviator.   - WPGA2345 -     ☛   23:18, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article did NOT fail an A-Class review
Hello, all,

This article was withdrawn from A-Class review at my request. As it did not complete the review, it did not fail it.

Georgejdorner (talk) 18:16, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Bias
This article is positively biased towards the subject of the article. This bias is conveyed through the frequent use of anecdotes, quotations, and the language itself. Examples: Not only are these terms aimed at painting a positive image of Berthold. I would also maintain that there were many soldiers of WWI who were brave and so forth, but that did not make them famous. More important in making soldiers famous was propaganda. In the case of Berthold his alleged post-war martyrdom also might play a role.
 * Berthold had a reputation as a ruthless, fearless and, above all, patriotic fighter. His perseverance, bravery, and willingness to return to combat while still wounded made him one of the most famous German pilots of World War I.
 * Condensed phrases in question.Georgejdorner (talk) 04:39, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

The Pour le Merite was a Prussian military order, and there is no need to speak of it as "Germany's greatest honor". The following quotes may stand for themselves: I do not know any further references which attribute this change of German tactics to Berthold. The first Jagdgeschwader was formed by Ernst von Hoeppner under the command of Manfred von Richthofen
 * won Germany's greatest honor, the Pour le Merite.Georgejdorner (talk) 04:19, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Every text I have read calls it Germany's greatest honor. Nevertheless, I have dubbed it as Prussian.Georgejdorner (talk) 04:19, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * When his limp body was pulled from the wreckage, he was believed dead until he began cursing. He fainted, then awoke to find himself blind. He begged bystanders to shoot him, then again swooned.
 * Removed.
 * The Coutrai hospital lacked the facilities to heal such a complex injury; however, it sufficed to keep him alive. It was three weeks before the wounded ace was stable enough to be transferred.
 * I fail to see how this statement of facts glorifies Berthold.Georgejdorner (talk) 04:19, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Rudolf Berthold would never fly again.
 * Another straightforward statement.Georgejdorner (talk) 04:30, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * He arrived at the Jagdstaffel 15 officers' mess coincidentally with the newly appointed wing commander. Berthold stared down Rittmeister Heinz Freiherr von Brederlow, who was senior to him, and announced, "Here I am the boss." Once Brederlow departed, Berthold took to bed, stating he would run the fighter wing from there. The following day, he was feverish and writhing in pain. The doctor who was called to Berthold's bedside ordered him back to the hospital. On the 14th, Kaiser Wilhelm II personally ordered the ace to take sick leave,
 * Trimmed.Georgejdorner (talk) 04:36, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * "And I will fly again…even if they must carry me to the airplane."
 * And why shouldn't I quote Berthold?Georgejdorner (talk) 04:36, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Unable to fly, he could still command.
 * Simple statement of fact.Georgejdorner (talk) 04:30, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * ''He still craved a return to combat, but the war ended while he was convalescing.
 * First half of sentence deleted.Georgejdorner (talk) 04:36, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Anticipating the future need for air protection, Berthold made an unheeded plea for amassing air power into larger units, and supported his proposal with detailed professional analysis & Shortly after assuming command, Berthold again pitched his idea of using fighters en masse; 4th Armee headquarters responded by grouping Jagdstaffelen 18, 24, 31, and 36 into Jagdgruppe 7 with Berthold in command.
 * JG 7 denoted as temporary formation.Georgejdorner (talk)
 * I have made it clear that JG I was first German fighter wing.Georgejdorner (talk) 04:30, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

The account of Berthold's post-war exploits is seriously distorted. Details of his Freikorps activities can be found at the Historisches Lexikon Bayern. As desribed in Latvian War of Independence Lithuanian War of Independence, once in the Baltic the German forces mainly fought against the regular Estonian and Latvian armies to establish German supremacy and their own state.

Kapp and Lüttwitz did not call for forces to maintain public order. As Berthold himself acknowledged, it was a putsch to overthrow the democratically legitimated government. Ebert was Reichspräsident, not chancellor. Berthold was an active part of the conspiracy that preceded the coup. The account of Berthold's fate at Harburg is anything but the "truth". One account by an historian is Jörg Berlin: Lynchjustiz an Hauptmann Berthold oder Abwehr des Kapp-Putsches?, In: Jörg Berlin: ''Das andere Hamburg. Freiheitliche Bestrebungen in der Hansestadt seit dem Spätmittelalter'' (Kleine Bibliothek 237), Köln 1981, pp. 209-234. Another account based upon archival research has been published by journalist Uwe Ruprecht as Hauptmann Bertholds Tode. In: Stader Jahrbuch 1999/2000. This piece has been reprinted in Elses Lachen: Wahre Kriminalfälle (Bremen, 2009) by the same author. Ruprecht provided the text without the notes at his blog In short, the pioneers' officers had declared allegiance to Kapp and were therefore lifted from their posts, whereas the rank-and-file soldiers had declared themselves loyal to the republican government. Berthold demanded that the pioneers joined the putsch or surrendered. After the fighting was over, Berthold was brought to the pub „Zur alten Rennbahn“, where he was interrogated and beaten by some workers. He was then dragged onto the streets again, mistreated and shot several times with his own pistol. His body was taken back to the pub. It is clear that Hans Wittmann did not retrieve the body and his description of how he found Berthold is fictitious. Berthold's order was recovered in the turnery of the railway workshops at Harburg as late as September.

An interesting side aspect is the grave stone. According to various sources like Erich Balla in the collection Die Unvergessenen, edited by Ernst Jünger (1928), the scripture on the tombstone read, among other things "Kämpfer für Deutschlands Größe. — Geehrt vom Feinde — Erschlagen von Deutschen Brüdern zu Harburg a. d. Elbe am 15. März 1920." That certainly does not translate as "slain in the brother fight for the freedom of the German lands". Since 1934 there seems to have been a memorative plaque at the gravesite featuring a different text, including "erschlagen im Bruderkampf für Deutschlands Freiheit". The latter text is also part of the title of Ludwig F. Gengler's biography of 1934, and therefore part of the Nazi German interpretation.

That raises the question: How much of these problems can be traced to Peter Kilduff's book? Concerning the circiúmstances of Berthold's death I would raise serious questions about the thoroughness of Kilduff's research and his POV. Was Berthold's name really "exploited" by the Nazis? A book like Robert Waite's Vanguard of Nazism is, despite dated, essential reading. It should be clear that many former Freikorps members, originally harboring monarchist beliefs, became Nazis later in their lives. Therefore it is not at all clear what would have become of Berthold and Kilduff's POV should be named as that.--Assayer (talk) 01:13, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

It may be an odd thing for a Yank to admit, but yes, I do admire Berthold for his military attributes. That may show through when I establish his notability--but that estimation of his reputation comes from the sources (mainly Kilduff).

And while the Pour le Merite may technically be a Prussian award, everything I have read says that overall, the German military generally accepted it as the premier award.

As Assayer has twigged in his list of quotations, I have recast incidents from Kilduff. However, that is not true of all the quotes list. I marked the end of his flying career on the reasoning that the end of a notable career is notable in itself. And then there is that last item, the confusion between a Jagdgruppe and a Jagdgeschwader, as well as Berthold's request for greater fighting forces. A bit of explanation:

As the creator and principal author of both Jagdgeschwader II and Jagdgeschwader III, I am well aware of the difference between them and a Jagdgruppe. The Jagdgruppe was an temporary ad hoc formation of squadrons for tactical usage. The Jagdgeschwader was a permanent formation for strategic use. The only things I attribute to Berthold concerning these formations is that he--like any competent military officer--wanted greater forces to wage his fight; he got Jagdgruppe 7 as a result. As for Jagdgeschwader III, I make it clear he fell into its command and led it well--nothing else.

Assayer certainly seems to have a lot of relevant info about Berthold's postwar years. I hope he (or some other bilingual German-speaker) will extensively rewrite that section. German political history is beyond this Yank's knowledge base. Quite frankly, I faked it through using Kilduff and Google Translate. I find Assayer's account of Berthold being interrogated in the tavern fascinating. I put a lot of effort into tracing the widespread myth that Berthold was throttled with his Blue Max. The only origin I could find for that was in the memoirs of Carl Degelow, who admitted it was gossip. When I came across the account of Berthold being mobbed, I was supplied with all kinds of believable details. So I bit. Now here's an even more credible account. That should bury the nonsensical myth for good.

Assayer, I hope you do rewrite this article. Any lingual bias should go, while the facts remain. But I hope you can understand a combat veteran's admiration for a fellow warrior and a hero.Georgejdorner (talk) 08:05, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

I have returned to remove such bias as I could, as can be seen. Unfortunately, I don't read German, so could not reform the postwar section. Georgejdorner (talk) 04:44, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Still biased
As pointed out above (2018), the article is quite biased. I have done some changes to fix this, but overall it still lacks are more balanced/neutral view and language, incorporating more widely published historical analysis on the subject. It still heavily relies on Kilduff's book. The section "legacy" should be reviewed and expanded.

I would further suggest to rewrite the lead section by cutting out the second and third paragraph and removing "Berthold's perseverance, bravery, and willingness to return to combat while still wounded made him one of the most famous German pilots of World War I." for the reasons pointed out above. I.Ariza (talk) 23:16, 12 August 2023 (UTC)