Talk:Rudolf Szepessy-Sokoll

Gardolo airport
The article says, "The formation barely cleared the Alps; the Lohner's ceiling was barely sufficient to clear the peaks. On the other side of the range, after 175 kilometers of flight, the Austro-Hungarians bombed Milan." O'Connor (1994) is cited at the end of the paragraph and this citation might well cover these part of the text. Unluckily, O'Connor (1994) seems not to be accessible on the Internet. I doubt that this passage of the article represents correctly what happened. Szepessy and his comrades flew from Gardolo, which is easily found in Google Maps, just type in "Gardolo". The map shows Gardolo is south of the Alps. It is a northern suburb of Trento, Italy, Trentino-South-Tyrol Region, Trento Province. However, it was then Austrian and part of Tyrol. There are articles in German Gardolo and in Italian Gardolo about Gardolo, which both mention the airfield. They say it was built in 1914 by the Austrians and finally abandoned in 1969. It lay between the railway line and the Adige river where Google Maps now shows an industrial zone. The essential point is that it is not necessary to pass over the Alps to fly from Gardolo to Milano. The distance from Gardolo to Milano is about 200 km: 175 seems a bit too short. With many thanks and best regards, Johannes Schade (talk) 10:05, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * What appears to be an earlier edition of the same source (1985, ISBN 0-912173-03-3) mentions the same thing - leaving Gardolo just before dawn and flying 110 mi to Milan "though the passage over the Alps was somewhat anxiety-provoking".Nigel Ish (talk) 16:36, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * And as the crow flies from Gardola to Milan will take you over some fairly mountainous terrain - the distances are such that you probably would take a direct route.Nigel Ish (talk) 17:03, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Alas, the travail of a Yank writing about European geography! As near as I can tell from Google map is that the flight seems to overflown the eastern end of the Alps. Yet I have no alternative source to quote. This conundrum is going to take some thought before revision.Georgejdorner (talk) 18:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I have looked a bit into this and, first, from what I could find it seems that the Lohner had a ceiling of 3500 m. Now, from Gardolo to Milan there are two main ways that could've been used: go south over Lake Garda, then turn west and head for Milan, arriving from the east; or fly directly west, this way you'll have to go over the Adamello-Presanella Alps which are indeed tall, with heights of over 2000 m, then follow the Valtellina valley, go over Lake Como and arrive at Milan from the north. Of course, there are other alternative routes that can be taken along the way. Now the question is, which route did the Austro-Hungarians take? If they would've gone with the easier one, that would've probably been expected, so they could've gone the long way around. This is just what I think about this, but what's needed is any information regarding the Austrian flight plans. Alin2808 (talk) 01:50, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * The fact that we have a WP:RS that talks about flying over mountains and mentions the Alps suggests that the Westerly route was taken - this would shortened the distance flown and possibly avoided flying over an active battlefield. In the absence of any source that disagrees, how can we say anything else about the routing (if we discuss it at all)?Nigel Ish (talk) 10:11, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Did some distance measuring on Google Maps to see if the distance given by the book checks out, got the following: the distance on the southern route is around 180 km; distance on the western route, through the Valtellina valley, is around 200 km. However, I found another route, that is in between the two and is around 175 km as the book suggests. This third route also goes over the Adamello-Presanella Alps and avoids flying over Bergamo, instead going over Lake Iseo, which also kinda confirms the book further as there are no mentions of flying over another city. So, I do think this is the one that was taken, unless, as Nigel Ish said, someone can find a source that disagrees. Alin2808 (talk) 20:38, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I have rewritten the relevant sentences, removing the false claim of first strategic bombing mission. I have also modified the description of the mission's flight path.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:50, 8 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Good. I do think they flew over the Alps as said previously, so maybe that part could stay, but I do doubt they "barely cleared the peaks" considering the ceiling of the Lohner and the height of the mountains. Unless they tried to fly over the tallest peaks and not go around them for some reason. Alin2808 (talk) 00:22, 9 January 2022 (UTC)