Talk:Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer (song)

Split content from Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer
Today, I split content from the "The song" section of the Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer article to create this new article, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer (song). This action is based on discussion and consensus in the Talk:Rudolph_the_Red-Nosed_Reindeer page. I have tried to retain all of the relevant text from the original article here with only minor modifications to the introductory paragraphs. Regarding the links to related foreign language Wikipedia articles, I retained those links to foreign language articles that (appear to be) primarily concerned with the Johnny Marks song - but I did not retain those foreign language links that linked to articles that were about the Robert L. May story (those links remain in the English "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" article - so are not "lost.")    Otherwise, if I have introduced any errors or omissions, I apologize but I trust other, more careful, Wikipedia editors will make corrections / additions / deletions as needed. Pugetbill (talk) 16:33, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for creating this new article...looks great. Mtminchi08 (talk) 04:51, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Original release date for Gene Autry's 1949 recording
The original article stated a release date of November 25, 1949 for Gene Autry's recording of Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. However an editor today provided a citation for an earlier release date, September 1, 1949 (see autry.com link). If this is correct, the current mention of Harry Brannon's radio broadcasts in "early November" being the "first sung commercially" incidence of Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer would be incorrect??? Is the September 1, 1949 release date correct? Does anyone have an additional citation for the release date of this 1949 Gene Autry recording? Most references I have found (admittedly without looking too terribly hard yet) simply state the year "1949" of the recording's release. Pugetbill (talk) 16:13, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In Billboard issue for Sep. 24, 1949, page 37, a short paragraph dated Sep. 17 says "Columbia Records will release Gene Autry's waxing of Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer and If It Doesn't Snow for Christmas as a children's record this week." My guess is that the folks at Autry.com only knew that it was September, and did a common thing of using September 1 to mean September. An ad from the music publisher in the October 1 issue touts recordings made by Autry on Columbia and Eddy Howard on Mercury. Autry's version made the Children's Record's chart in the Nov 12 issue. That same issue has an article dated November 5 saying that Columbia would now be pushing it in the pop record market. So, I'm going to change the release date in the box from September 1 to just September, and add the info from my first sentence to the article. I think the uncited Harry Brannon reference can be removed completely, since it definitely didn't precede the record release. PatConolly (talk) 05:45, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. There are many sources out there that not only confirm that Brannon went on the air in NY (WOR) in November to help promote Autry's release of the record; but also state the release to be September 1st: Gold Mine Magazine. I think you may be reading into the Billboard issue a bit too OR / personal opinion. A simple Google search: "Harry Brannon Rudolph" yields countless sources to back the claim that he was the first to introduce the song (live) on radio. It should be re-instated. Also, I contest the September "week" 17-24 that you have included, since there is no evidence to support the claim, and your above statement says: "I'm going to change the release date in the box from September 1 to just September"; which you did not do. WP does not work on: "My guess" but on solid facts from sources. I'm going to change the content back to simply "September", and re-instate Brannon with sources. Thanks. Maineartists (talk) 13:54, 7 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I have 4 dates
 * 1949/06/27   <<  recording
 * 1949/09/01  <<  release
 * 1949/12/10  <<  entered Billboard Country Chart
 * 1950/01/07  <<  Hit #1
 * I have notes on where I got the dates and other stuff, but since I am writing to a ghost, I have more pressing things to do Tillywilly17 (talk) 15:21, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Who's a ghost? Regardless. If you have actual sources to back correct dates, it would benefit the article to find the time and actually insert the content. No? Maineartists (talk) 16:59, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

When did Johnny Marks write the song?
I'm trying to find an authoritative, reliable source for the publication date of this Johnny Marks song (RUDOLPH THE RED NOSED REINDEER," ASCAP Work ID: 480058686, ISWC: T0701273995). It seems fairly well established that Gene Autry's recording of the song was released in late 1949 (although citations for the exact release date of Autry's recording are also not easy to find - see above) and it was a big hit that Christmas - so we know the song was written prior to "late 1949".  I have also seen references to the Max Fleischer animated short "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer"  (imdb link) from 1947 that was re-released in 1948 with the "new" song "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" added.  This implies the song was written in or before 1948. Another source indicates Marks was asked to write the song in 1947 - but the source doesn't say he completed the song in 1947 (link). If anyone has a good source to cite for the year and/or month Marks wrote the song (or date of the song's first publication?), please add that info (with citation) to the article.

Based on the un-official info I've seen so far, I would guess that Marks wrote the song no earlier than 1947 and no later than 1948.

Pugetbill (talk) 18:19, 9 January 2012 (UTC)


 * He filed a quick copyright
 * RUDOLPH, THE RED-NOSED REINDEER
 * w & m John David Marks
 * © 12Jan49 EU153641
 * then filed another in May with publication info Tillywilly17 (talk) 15:16, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Something good about this article
It is good to see that this article has a list of people who have done recordings of this song. This might have helped people who had a question about singers of the song on University Challenge on December 18 2012! ACEOREVIVED (talk) 21:12, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Comma
Why is this page titled "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" when the article text and the original release cover use "Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer"? --Khajidha (talk) 15:29, 2 May 2018 (UTC)


 * RUDOLPH, THE RED-NOSED REINDEER
 * w & m John David Marks
 * © 12Jan49 EU153641
 * original copyright trumps all Tillywilly17 (talk) 06:05, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I just agreed and backed up your argument for the comma. congrats
 * wasn't planning to, it was in my file Tillywilly17 (talk) 06:13, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Charts!?
Is it really necessary to have a charts table for this article? It could very easily be incorporated into the article as a one-sentence content inclusion; i.e. "In December 2018, Autry's original version entered the Billboard Hot 100 at #36, nearly 70 years after it first charted." Unless the song is covered by another artist and reaches the charts by its own merit; I do not think / feel that a charts table is warranted here. IMHO Maineartists (talk) 16:28, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Album vs Single
I saw that you removed content on the basis that the song itself did not chart. I think we need to take into account that some of these songs are not / never were singles, but are included on albums that did chart; therefore are notable. If the album charted, then they should be notable enough for mention here i.e. Merry Christmas which hit the Top 10 of the Billboard Holiday Album Charts, Jackson 5 Christmas Album which spent all four weeks at the number one position on Billboard magazine in December 1970, Christmas in the Aire which was the biggest-selling holiday album in the United States that year with sales of 1,844,000 in 1995. I would not place Destiny's Child (Billboard 200 at number 59) or Spike Jones (no chart). Maineartists (talk) 20:42, 7 December 2020 (UTC)
 * You are probably right. My erasure wasn't malicious, but was based on my experiences with many similar pages where anon editors are constantly jamming in their fav versions and the list gets bogged down in trivial crap. I'm fine with whatever you want to do as long as the charting of the albums is cited. Ckruschke (talk) 13:17, 8 December 2020 (UTC)Ckruschke

Autry's recording sold 1.75 million copies its first Christmas season and 1.5 million the following year
Autry's recording sold 1.75 million copies its first Christmas season and 1.5 million the following year.

cite magazine|magazine=Variety|title=Alltime Yule Money Songs|first=Abel|last=Green|author-link=Abel Green|date=December 20, 1961|page=1

Can anybody smarter than me verify this information? I was unsuccessful, though I located the magazine, and searched it.

thanks Tillywilly17 (talk) 15:09, 1 July 2022 (UTC)