Talk:Ruff (bird)

My evaluation of this article for Bio372
The entry on Ruffs seems complete. It fits the entire format under the WikiProject Birds description and has plenty of pictures. The behavior section of the article is thorough and mentions the 3 alternative mating strategies as well as how it is genetically related. A picture of the third type of male that mimics females is missing and would add to the article. The article could mention frequency dependent advantages for each mating strategy. The writing is neutral, clear, and well referenced. There are no words that introduce bias and the words are precise with no clichés. However, according to peer reviewer, two of the links on the page are no longer working. Looking at the Talk page, the Ruff has had a good amount of thought put into it. One individual reviewed the article for quality and put considerable time into pointing out how to improve the article as well as rated the article as good quality. All of the suggestions that the reviewer made have been corrected. The article used to be a featured article so it is considered one of the best articles on Wikipedia. The history shows a lot of small changes, except for some very large deletions and reversions that seem to be due to vandalism. Zhangt2413 (talk) 19:46, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Some gratuitous feedback....

 * ...is a medium-sized wader which breeds on marshes and wet meadows in northern Europe and Russia. - sounds odd as one is a continent (or part thereof) and one a country, but I concede I can't think of a better way to write it (N Europe and NW Asia???). Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:05, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * North Eurasia? Sabine's Sunbird  talk  11:06, 8 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Changed to northern Eurasia, thanks jimfbleak (talk) 14:38, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

General comments

 * Discussion below originally started on my talk page and continued here: Snowman (talk) 22:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

thanks for edits, I've repeated the Hayman ref for Senegal jimfbleak (talk) 18:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Since there is a GA review in progress, your edits are actually likely to cause confusion. If you think improvements are necessary or desirable, please add comments on the GA review page, which you can access via the article's Talk page. Jim (editor) and I (reviewer) have put a lot of work into this, and I do not intend to recheck the entire article because of undiscussed edits in the middle of the review. --Philcha (talk) 19:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I had noticed User Jimfbleak's message on the Bird talk page, and I decided to help out. Snowman (talk) 22:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as I am aware only major or controversial changes to an article necessitate prior discussion on the talk page. I find that these sort of uncontroversial edits are generally welcome during GA and FA reviews. Snowman (talk) 08:34, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

PS I notice that this edit is new material but unsupported by a ref - i.e. violates WP:NOR. --Philcha (talk) 19:38, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I would not call it original research as the calorific values of various metabolised substances are very well studied indeed. Anyway, I see it as "common knowledge" that was not in an inline ref, so I have opted to revert the edit of mine that you refer to. Snowman (talk) 22:28, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Chicks
It would not affect GA probably, but with a possible FA in mind: I think a bit more should be said about the chicks in the main body of the article, and I have added "Young chicks are able to mobilise soon after hatching." to the introduction, which may need further elaboration. The word "precocial" sounds like jargon. When do chicks leave the nest? What do the chicks feed on? When are they independent? How does the female look after them and protect them? It would be good if the article had some photographs of mobile chicks. Snowman (talk) 10:28, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "precocial" usually means mobile within an hour or so of birth / hatching - or, if the source is not specific, "mobile very shortly after ...". Re pic, I suspect chicks tend to look rather alike except for those with highly specialised bills, e.g ducks and raptors.
 * Jim might be able to answer the rest, if the sources are kind. --Philcha (talk) 14:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * There is usually very little information about chicks, esp of precocial species, which don't sit nicely in a nest waiting to be observed. Even non-free images of chicks of wader species are hard to come by, although BWP has an illustration. As above, chicks of precocial species vamoose soon after hatching. It is likely that they eat insects, and that the adults' role is limited to deterring predators and maybe brooding at night. These are typical behaviours of most waders and other open country species, but during extensive searching I found nothing that could be referenced to this species. jimfbleak (talk) 14:47, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Migration
I am interested in the manor of the flying during migration having watched a long column of about 200 birds (unidentified species) migrating north in the spring, which were flapping their wings; however, when they found an air thermal about two thirds of the birds used the air thermal to elevate them significantly, and the third of the birds that were ahead of the air thermal flu onwards without taking the upward lift. The article mentions migration in flocks but not of the manor of flight - Do they fly in conformation? Do they use air thermals? How to they cross the Caspian Sea? I wondered if migration needs to be included in a subheading. Snowman (talk) 19:57, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Most of what you ask can be answered, but isn't sourceable.
 * The use of thermals is restricted to large broad-winged birds such as large birds of prey (vultures, eagles, buzzards) and storks. Most other birds, including all the waders, are too small, too narrow-winged or don't soar anyway (geese and swans). Since active flapping flight is the default mode, it's unlikely to be mentioned.
 * Again, flying in conformation (eg a V formation) tends to be used most by large birds such as geese, where the aerodynamics are improved by having another bird in front. Other gregarious birds tend to fly in unstructured flocks. It's the default so rarely mentioned except for a few species like Dunlin, Red Knot and European Starling where the sheer size of the flocks is notable.
 * Why the Caspian in particular - the Mediterranean is a bigger barrier? Most migratory birds are perfectly capable of crossing the Mediterranean, including much smaller birds like warblers (for example, the Sedge Warbler can do 3000 miles non-stop). The exception is the large broad-winged soaring, birds such as large birds of prey and storks, which have to cross at the narrowest points like Gibraltar and the Dardanelles, or go round east through Israel, because there are no thermals over water. This means that huge numbers pass through the narrow sea crossings or Israel at migration times, which is readily sourced. Direct crossing is standard and rarely if ever mentioned.
 * In researching this, I've not come across anything significant about migration that's not in the article, and the refs Shyamal found don't have anything that needs adding either. The Ruff is unexceptional in that like the vast majority of migratory birds, it actively flaps, goes directly over water, and doesn't have obvious flight formations. It doesn't set any records for length of flight, so the flying is basically standard and unlikely to be mentioned as such. jimfbleak (talk) 06:08, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I should have said Mediterranean Sea and Black Sea (and not Caspian Sea). Flock cohesion is another aspect of birds flying is a large flock. How do they keep together is a large flock when it is misty or foggy? Snowman (talk) 09:57, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Many birds call in flight (not the Ruff), and species like the Redwing, which migrate at at night, can be heard from the ground as they fly over in the autumn. Migrants tend to commence flight in clear weather or moonlit nights, when sight or calls would keep them together, and they would be above the level of low mist or fog. Poor weather can, of course, occur en route, and flocks can become separated. Young birds on their first migration are particularly likely to become disorientated. 16:23, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Primary use?
This article was given the primary use by this edit, which wrongly claimed the collar sense was derived from the bird, when - as the article now says - it seems to be the other way round. Given that the bird is not found in North America or the UK (now), I'm very doubtful that it is the primary meaning - most English-speakers will never have heard of it. It may well appear in various bird lists and templates, but those are not relevant for establishing if there is a primary usage. This should be Ruff (bird) and the disam page have the plain term. Johnbod (talk) 20:16, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * A Google search for just "Ruff" gives the two Wikipedia articles (collar and bird) followed by the RSPB article on the bird then lots of stuff unrelated to either. The Ruff actually still breeds in small numbers in the UK, and is seen in large numbers on migration (I saw a sizeable flock at Minsmere on Saturday), and smaller numbers in winter.


 * If you want to follow this up can I make two requests? First, please raise the issue at the project page for discussion. Secondly, this article is in the middle of an FAC, so I'd be very grateful if you could wait a week or so until the FAC has finished. I'm very reluctant to see the article name changed in mid-flight (so to speak). Thanks jimfbleak (talk) 14:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Given that the ruff as an item of clothing hasn't really been fashionable since the Stuarts, the primary usage for the last 300 years has been the bird. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  23:31, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


 * 37 (is it) breeding males in the UK, according to the RSPB; information that could usefully be added here. I won't do anything for a while. Both sorts of ruff are certainly today about equally rare in the English-speaking world, but I would suggest that a far greater number of English-speakers have heard of the item of clothing than the bird. I am suggesting there is no primary meaning, but if there were, the collar would have the stronger claim, imo. But then I'm not a birder. If you don't believe me, ask your non-birder friends what a ruff is. Johnbod (talk) 13:21, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * On the status in the UK, I'd rather leave as is. For birds that breed in the UK, there is always far more available for that country than the rest of the range, and even in its present form, where I'd been consciously trying to keep it balanced, one FAC reviewer thought it was too slanted towards the UK. Its the same with species that have a range that includes the US - its easy to lose balance because of the masses of data from that country and a paucity from elsewhere. The article has its gold star now, so I'm happy for the debate to start at the project page. Personally, I don't like a disamb where there are two reasonable candidates for primary use. It just means that whichever you are searching for, you don't get there on the first attempt. I suspect that there are more searches for the bird than the collar on Wikipedia, but I haven't checked.  Jimfbleak  -  talk to me?  15:05, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Link to German Kampfläufer
The German link for some reason does not lead me to the article page, but to. I attempted fixing that even by inserting de:Kampfl%C3%A4ufer, but to no avail, it still remains the wrong target. Can anyone fix that? G Purevdorj (talk) 09:00, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * On a related note: it might be worth noting the French (Combattant varié) and German (Kampfläufer) names for the bird remain linked to combat. Not essential for the article, but interesting nonetheless. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) Join WikiProject Athletics!  12:34, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The German link is working fine for me, so I'm not sure what the problem is/was. MeegsC | Talk 00:17, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I dunno whether action has been taken, but it works now (I'm using the same computer as before). G Purevdorj (talk) 16:16, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

FA?
I can hardly believe that this article made it to the front page without the word "bird" being mentioned anywhere in the first paragraph! Neither "wader" or "sandpiper" indicate what the thing actually is. A wading, piping what? I've got a mate called Dunc who both wades (jogs along the beach, actually) and blows the pipes, but he doesn't usually do them both at the same time. Amandajm (talk) 12:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * thanks for the correction, although the photo gives a bit of a clue (:  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  13:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Name
If the bird gets it's name from the article of clothing, then shouldn't that article be called "Ruff" and this one be "Ruff(bird)"206.123.191.246 (talk) 22:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * To quote myself from a few paragraphs up "Given that the ruff as an item of clothing hasn't really been fashionable since the Stuarts, the primary usage for the last 300 years has been the bird". Sabine's Sunbird  talk  23:40, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The Egyptian polymath Imhotep hasn't been fashionable since the third century BCE, but Imhotep doesn't direct readers to Imhotep (musician). I would suggest that more people are more familiar with the item of clothing than the bird, therefore there should be a disambiguation page at least. PICURMN (talk) 02:38, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * , there is a disambiguation page. It's linked right at the top of the article! MeegsC (talk) 02:49, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Scientific name
The BOU, at least, now has this as a member of the genus Calidris, see the 2013 BOU British List. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.6.243 (talk) 14:20, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * In the interests of consistency, the Bird project adopted the IOC list as a standard, rather than decide between differing regional decisions/latest research, so, for the time being at least, we stick with Philomachus pugnax  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  17:40, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160412000722/http://www.rug.nl/research/animal-ecology/publications/_pdf/ruff-newsletter-2009.pdf to http://www.rug.nl/research/animal-ecology/publications/_pdf/ruff-newsletter-2009.pdf

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Move discussion in progress
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