Talk:Rule, Britannia!

1994 Welsh verse lyrics
What was the verse sang in welsh by Bryn Terfel in 1994 (as on the recording at foot of the wikipedia page for Rule, Brittania!). Was it one of the other verses in translation, or some other varient lyrics. I can't find any reference detailing it on the entire interweb, and it was surely an interesting varient. Graldensblud 23:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

It is actually a direct translation of the first verse, not the third verse as was quoted here. Clissold 10:42, 19 December 2007

In the recording, while Terfel is singing the Welsh lyrics, you can hear gasps of delight in the audience, confirmed by cheers at the end of the verse (quickly drowned out by the chorus singing the refrain). This presumably occurs as Welsh-speaking members of the audience realize with pleasure that Terfel, himself Welsh, has translated the verse into Welsh. Yet the gasps of delight only begin in the MIDDLE of the verse, not at the beginning. Can anyone explain why this is so?Partnerfrance (talk) 09:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
Rule Britannia → Rule, Britannia! – Page should be under the song's actual title. Rule Britannia should exist as a redirect page.

Survey

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~


 * Support ▫ UrbaneLegend talk 10:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. That's the actual title of the song.  JackofOz 11:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support concur with previous comment FClef 13:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. — Knowledge Seeker দ 06:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. Wiki-Ed 08:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. Also concur with previous comment Hga 18:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. Again - concur with suggestion Peter Shearan 05:38, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

This poll is now closed. The consensus was support, and the page has been moved accordingly.

Historical significance of the song
I've included a paragraph on the historical significance of the song as I am sure it evolved as a jest (it's written as a series of imperatives and in the future tense) and I think it was aimed at a continental power following an event of some importance... However, I cannot remember what the event was or which nation it was aimed at. Any clues anyone? Of course my memory could be faulty - it might not have been specific as it would annoy all Britain's imperial rivals at this time. Wiki-Ed 21:53, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * The date of composition (1740) suggests that the War of Jenkins' Ear (which later merged into the War of the Austrian Succession) may have been on the composers' minds. Gdr 21:41:53, 2005-09-10 (UTC)

I think this article could do with all the diffrent versiosn, anyone agree?

Wasn't the song used to celebrate the rise of the Navy in defending against pirates and associated slavery of their captives? Nbroxton1 (talk) 23:39, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Use for a general salute.
I wanted to add that a 15 sec burst of the chorus is used in the Royal Navy when making a General Salute to the First Sea Lord; as a part of a system where God Save The Queen (also in 15 secs) is used during a Royal Salute and various other tunes are used for various office-holders.

However I am not 100% certain of this, and I can't find corroberation. Does anyone else agree with me and can anyone find proof?

In 1745, Britannia Did Already Rule The Waves
The article says that "Though the Netherlands, which in the 17th century presented a major challenge to English sea power, was obviously past its peak by 1745, Britain did not yet "rule the waves". The time was still to come when the Royal Navy would be an unchallenged dominant force on the oceans ...", however this doesn't swing with my historical take (you dig?), and indeed the Wikipedia article on the Royal Navy states unequivocally: "From about 1692 until World War II, the Royal Navy was the largest and most powerful navy in the world." Maikel 19:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about. It's a common misconception that the words say "Britannia rules the waves".  They don't.  They say "Britannia rule the waves".  It's not a statement of fact, but an invocation to always be the dominant sea power. JackofOz 01:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed. And the Royal Navy article is wrong; I thought I corrected that a while ago but it looks like someone tinkered with it again. The claims could do with a "citation needed". Wiki-Ed 09:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The comma
Shouldn't this article be entitled Rule, Britannia!, as the first line of the chorus goes? ▫ UrbaneLegend talk 11:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I do believe you're correct. JackofOz 12:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't it be 'Rule Britannia!', as it's in the imperative? Postman curlywurly (talk) 17:47, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
 * "Rule Britannia" is a command to someone to Rule Britannia, the comma makes it a command addressed to Britannia to rule - the wave. Dmottram (talk) 10:46, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Pink Floyd song
Hello, in a Pink Floyd song you can hear the words Would you like to see Britannia rule again my friend (song: Waiting for the worms, The Wall). If someone agree that it is appropriate, we could add this in the trivia section. Don't take it too seriously, bye. ; ) B G 01:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Laugh
I heard someone say this today. It gave me a big laugh, so I thought others might enjoy it:
 * Britannia may well rule the waves, but she will never waive the rules.  JackofOz 14:26, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

-Hear hear! -S. Lee, Mililani HI

Popular newspaper headline, has about 18000 google hits at the moment, compared to 80000 for the original phrase. 87.194.62.160 (talk) 21:26, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I found this quote in Malaparte's Kaputt (and it led me to this Wikipage). He attributes it to "Hammen Waper", a "gossip writer". 90.48.178.90 (talk) 22:38, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Lyrics of chorus: wrong?
I've just been listening to a recording of the Last Night of the Proms (HMV Classics: HMV 586794 2) on which Rule, Britannia! is sung by Norma Proctor with the Royal Choral Society. They sing "never will be slaves" not "never shall be slaves". They also don't sing "Never, never, never" as mentioned in the article: there is only one "never" but it is drawn out: "Ne-e-e-e-ever".

I've noticed this before whilst listening to the 'last night' on TV or radio and I've also seen it in printed lyrics. PurplePenny 17:46, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I would imagine there are different ways of singing it. A singer might be able to hold the "ne-e-e-ver", but I don't think many other people could do (hence "never, never, never"). The will/shall bit has always confused me... I think they're interchangeable depending upon who is singing it and where. Wiki-Ed 08:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have a copy with "never" three times, and shall instead of will. I'll put it in as variable. --Qu e ntin Smith 11:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I've heard "Never, never, never" more than "neevverrr", but it is right to have both mentioned IMO. Same with "shall/will".  Question:

Would the "Trivia" section not perhaps be better labelled "Popular culture references" since that is what it seems to be comprised of?Rlquall 13:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The way we sing it is "never, never, never, never" - four nevers. But then again, we also sing it as "England", not "Britons". I had always thought this inconsistent but just assumed it was part of the English "England = Britain" viewpoint. 46.208.140.43 (talk) 14:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Year written?
The article needs to mention the year the poem was written. Right now, it only gives the year that the poem was set to music, and it is missing the year the poem was written. I don't know the year myself; can someone fill that information in? &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 05:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

At least, the way I read the intro sentence as it currently stands ("Rule, Britannia!" is a patriotic British national song, originating from the poem "Rule, Britannia" by James Thomson, and set to music by Thomas Arne in 1740.) it seems to say that the poem was set to music in 1740, but the sentence structure and the comma seem to imply that the poem was written in a different year. If that 1740 refers to both the year of writing and the year the poem was set to music, the intro sentence needs to be rewritten to make that clearer. If the year of writing is not the same as the year the poem was set to music, the year of writing needs to be given. &mdash;Lowellian (reply) 05:54, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the wording might be deliverately weasely because the author doesn't know the answer - I belive this is because it is not known. I think it was written - from its wording - around the same time, but I don't recall ever having seen a date on the poem itself. Wiki-Ed 21:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Does this song have any relation to the defeat of the spanish armarda at all? because i have been lead to belive so in history studies.

Contradiction
A previous contributor had inserted a template that didn't exist, so I changed it. The contradiction stands though - the article says that the Jacobites seized upon the song and wrote anti-Jacobite words to it, which seems like a strange thing to do. -- Mithent 23:04, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

As leitmotif in American popular culture
I have heard this song my whole life as a leitmotif in American popular culture for all things U.K. I am surprised that this reasonable observation was deleted. If we want to get into citation issues, the whole article is uncited. Charles T. Betz 02:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Good example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_in_Civilization_IV - it is used to represent Victoria. Charles T. Betz 03:00, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Another pointer: http://www.moviemusic.com/mb/Forum1/HTML/002407.html. Elmer Bernstein, noted film composer, apparently discusses the stereotypical usage of Rule Britannia to denote a British warship. Charles T. Betz 03:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In review of Shangai Nights, http://moviemusicuk.us/ahitf03.htm, "London, of course, is stuffily depicted by brief blasts of "Rule Britannia"" Charles T. Betz 03:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You are correct in that the article is largely unsourced at the moment. Until recently it did not have much more than the words, but people have been adding snippets here and there and now it looks a bit scruffy. I have no idea where their sources are, but they do link to other Wikipedia articles. I think your addition probably belongs in the "other uses" section. Wiki-Ed 09:24, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have done so. Charles T. Betz 12:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Lyrics
I added a couple of citataions from the OCM. I was going to add a citation for the lyrics and turned to my Palgrave's Golden Treasury...but find there are some differences: "Britons never will be slaves and "And manly hearts to guard the fair" (my bolding). Palgrave is publishing it as a poem, not a song so, for example, the chorus is "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves!" (without the repetition needed for the song). Any suggestions as to which source we quote as the definitive lyrics? Bluewave 14:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Now also checked Oxford Dictionary of Quotations which agrees with "will be slaves" so maybe the article is wrong? Bluewave 14:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Anthem?
I've always thought this would be a better anthem than God Save the Queen - boring, generic, no real mention of anything British and shared with other countries as a royal anthem (Australia etc), compared with this which is rousing and interesting. Is there a reason why it is not? It's about the same age, if not older, than the current one. Would it ever get changed? 212.108.17.165 09:17, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * For some reason I'm given to understand the Queen is quite fond of God Save the Queen, so she is unlikely to suggest changing it. However, the lyrics to God Save the Queen are actually linked to historical events (Marshal Wade etc), whereas Rule! Britannia doesn't actually mention anything specifically British. So I disagree with you there. However, in any case, it's not official (in legislative terms). As to a change in the future, well maybe, but who can say. I would be surprised if a national vote on the subject selected this one over Land of Hope and Glory though. Wiki-Ed 10:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if it's a good idea to add the term "Cool Britannia" to the See also section. What do you think?

Cool Britannia
I wonder if it's a good idea to add the term "Cool Britannia" to the See also section. What do you think? Iakd87 00:29, 30 April 2007 (UTC).


 * I am sure the Queen will be most displeased by that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.201.221 (talk) 12:36, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Mermaid
I am confused about the relation of the "imperial" and the "mermaid" versions. A google search yields conflicting results, presenting the "mermaid" lyrics either as "traditional", or as an alternation to Thomson's lyrics by Mallet. dab (𒁳) 10:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I too am confused, and I'm not sure I believe the assertion in this article that the revisions made in 1751 produced a version known as "Married to a Mermaid". I'd like to understand the change in lyrics -- what were the three verses by Lord Bolingbroke, and what were the originals they replaced? I believe that the version known as "Married to a Mermaid" is a music-hall song composed in 1866 by Arthur Lloyd which certainly USES the chorus of "Rule Britannia" as a musical element but is really a comic song in its own right and not a version of "Rule, Britannia!" per se. Mooncow (talk) 17:48, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Never will or never shall?
Maybe it's my hearing, but I've always heard the words "Britons never ... shall be slaves", not "never will be slaves". Is it just me, or is this a recognised variant of the words? -- JackofOz 04:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I changed it to "will" on the basis that this is the version of the words in the original masque and in Palgrave's Golden Treasury and the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations. I agree that it sounds a bit odd, but these are all reliable citable sources and I suggest they should be the starting point for an encyclopedic article.Bluewave 09:10, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Bluewave.  There seems to be plenty of evidence on Google that "shall" is sung pretty commonly.  It may not be the words in the original poem, but it's what is actually sung these days.  I think this deserves some mention in the article.  --  JackofOz 09:50, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Each is correct in context, "never will" means "I don't think they will but I'm not too bothered.", "never shall" means "They never shall. I would go to war to prevent it." When we consider the possibility of us all being turned into slaves (which nearly happened in WWII and truly happened in the 1600s) I think the determined emphasis of "shall" makes more sense. Normal English would be will but the deviation to shall makes it emphatic, not wrong. user:Budhen 1 Sep 2020. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Budhen (talk • contribs) 20:15, 1 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The last two lines go together in a construction more common in Latin. The meaning is "if you rule the waves, Britannia, Britons will never be slaves". It's like "brush your teeth, you won't get toothache". This means that "will" is right. "Shall" makes a different sense.  Esedowns (talk) 14:47, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Attacks by the Barbary pirates on the Cornish coast?
Christopher Hitchens says the song is connected with the attacks by the Barbary pirates on the Cornish coast - in which many Cornish folk were taken as slaves to Algiers in the 18th century. Can anyone verify this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.240.38.29 (talk) 22:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Compare When Britons were slaves in Africa, HistoryExtra (BBC History Magazine) Lefschetz (talk) 07:57, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Vandalism
Seems like someone had their way with this page. I undid some of the edits that made reference to Brazil, I can't seem to figure out how to change the flag picture to the union jack.

Could someone take a look throught the article and correct the vandalised sections?


 * I think I've successfully reverted the vandalism....but I'm really not sure whether that flag is a good idea. It kind of reinforces the idea of the song as a cliche for imperial Britain. Bluewave (talk) 16:40, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

United Kingdom
I reverted the change United Kindom back to Great Britain. UK is not entirely incorrect as that is what the nation has subsequently come to be called but it is misleading. At the time of writing the song, pre 1801, it was written to praise a specific cultural concept of Great Britain and Great Britain has quite different cultural connotations to United Kingdom. When Brits sing Rule Brittania they mostly still sing to a nostalgic image of the Britain of the past with all that went with that in terms of power, prestige and glory. Singing this does not conjure up a concept of the political entity, the United Kingdom of today. If people follow the link to Great Britain I think they will come away much better informed about why this song is so powerful and why it is sung. Rule Britania is about Great Britain, it isn't about the United Kindom even though they occupy, more or less, the same piece of land. Ex nihil (talk) 08:53, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Urtext
I suggest to add a reference to the `Urtext' version of Alfred (cf. for a full citation). The piano version shown in the article severely changes the harmonies (to the worse, of course). -- Lemzwerg (talk) 16:46, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Music
It's great to see music sheets (or song sheets, whatever your preference) on wikipedia. Well done. Anyone know of any other such sheets on wiki? BritsRule (talk) 12:05, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

"Unofficial national anthem"
An editor is trying to add a claim that the song is "is often called the unofficial national anthem" of the UK, which so far as I can tell is not based on a reliable source, and which has also been discussed (and rejected) at Talk:United Kingdom. Comments from uninvolved editors welcome. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:51, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a patriotic song and it's not the national anthem. If someone claims it is "often called" the unofficial national anthem, they should be able to provide many examples of it being called that. I think the onus is on them to do so. Bluewave (talk) 22:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the sources on that page fully support the editors' claim. They are not all reliable, in fact I would say only the first one is reliable. I have heard of this claim before, and since there is a reliable source to back it up then I think it could be included here. What do you think? MrTranscript (talk) 22:53, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

Britains vs. Britons; or How many Britains are there?
This alerted me to the Lyrics as Sung. Does anyone actually think of plural Britains when they sing the song? Surely it's plural Britons who will never be slaves. No? --   Jack of Oz   [your turn]  19:36, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * See something odd -> check history -> see IP edit -> detect vandalism -> revert. Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

locked?
why can I not edit the page?--99.101.160.159 (talk) 21:08, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Duplication and overlap
Hello. There appears to be some duplication of content in at least two sections, "Independent history" and "In popular culture". I'm tempted to remove it from the latter, but I wanted to get some more input first. Viriditas (talk) 03:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The "In Popular culture" section should be removed. It's just a horrible list of unimportant trivia. Wiki-Ed (talk) 21:03, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I've removed it and placed it below this section. Viriditas (talk) 01:25, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

In popular culture
The music used for the Alma Mater of Winston Churchill High School in San Antonio, Texas
 * Richard Wagner wrote an overture called "Rule Britannia" in 1837.
 * Ron Goodwin incorporated the tune into his Miss Marple theme for the film Murder Ahoy! starring Margaret Rutherford.
 * In Jules Verne's The Begum's Fortune, "Rule, Britannia!" is raucously sung by drunken British characters, representing what the writer (and other French people at the time) regarded as a grasping British greediness.
 * The first bars of the chorus are commonly heard in American popular culture as a sort of leitmotif accompanying the appearance of a British icon, such as the Royal Navy, the Union Flag (or Union Jack), a member of the British Royal Family, or any United Kingdom representative of social or military rank. This force is sometimes parodied by changing the lyrics to "Rule Britannia, Britannia waives the rules (or waves the rules. by juxtaposition, even in non-American parodies )"
 * A punk rock version of the song is sung in Derek Jarman's film Jubilee.
 * Rule Britannia is the ironic title of a novel by Daphne du Maurier, actually expressing the anger of Britons (specifically, of the Cornish) at being dominated by the United States.
 * Ruled Britannia is an alternate history novel by Harry Turtledove, describing a Britain conquered by the Spanish Armada.
 * An excerpt of the song was used as the ring entrance music for the tag team the British Bulldogs (Davey Boy Smith and Tom "Dynamite Kid" Billington) in the 1980s, and again, when Davey Boy Smith returned in the 1990s, while in the World Wrestling Federation. Davey Boy's son D.H. Smith would also use it as his entrance music.
 * "Rule, Britannia!" is sometimes mistaken for the British national anthem. This is probably because it is used so often in popular culture to represent Britain that it has become more associated with it than the actual national anthem.
 * The chorus tune was deliberately misquoted in an episode of the 1960s Batman TV series, in which Batman and Robin visited Britain.
 * John Lennon sings part of "Rule, Britannia!" in the film A Hard Day's Night
 * "Rue Brittania" (note the missing l) is the title of a story arc in The Rocky and Bullwinkle Show covering episodes 117 through 124, wherein Bullwinkle bears the inscription "Rue Brittania" on his foot.
 * The Spitting Image sketch "Last Night of the Yobs" includes a version with the words "Rule, Britannia! Britannia rules not much - less than the Spanish or the Belgians or the Dutch".
 * It is used in Sid Meier's Civilization IV for Queen Victoria's and Winston Churchill Theme.
 * Ruling Britannia: Failure and Future of British Democracy by the Scottish journalist and author Andrew Marr was published in 1996.
 * The dystopian alternate history novelette "The Greatest Danger" by Lee Allred is set in The Domination of the Draka timeline, created by S. M. Stirling, in which the monstrous Drakas conquer the world and reduce everybody else to chattel slavery. In one episode of the story, the people of Guernsey defy their Draka captors by singing "Britons never, never will be slaves!", words quite literal in this context.
 * "Rule, Britannia!" is the theme song of Lord British, the avatar of Richard Garriott in the Ultima series of computer games. In Ultima 7, it is usually heard when the main hero of the game wanders near Lord British Castle.
 * British folk metal band Skyclad has incorporated parts of the chorus as a wordplay in their song "Think Back and Lie of England", ("Cruel Britannia ruled the waves..."), which unlike "Rule, Britannia!" is anti-patriotic.
 * In the Adult Swim show Sealab 2021 episode "Let them Eat Corn" two British arms dealers sing a song about their new teeth sung to a rock version of the song.
 * In Paul Revere's Ride (2005) by David Del Tredici, "Rule, Britannia!" is set in counterpoint against "Yankee Doodle", representing the Battles of Lexington and Concord that began the American Revolution.
 * Also used in Finnish, Norwegian, Danish and Swedish TV ads for Premiership Football on Canal+.
 * The song is regularly sung by fans of English football clubs Millwall FC, Swindon FC and Chelsea F.C.It is also sung by fans of Linfield in Northern Ireland and Rangers in Scotland because of its unionist connotations.
 * In the 1987 James Bond film The Living Daylights, "Rule, Britannia!" must be whistled to activate the stun gas feature of Bond's key ring.
 * In the Keeping Up Appearances episode "A Barbecue at Violet's", "Rule, Britannia!" is one of the songs in Hyacinth's "party game"
 * Featured in the film The Italian Job (1969).
 * Robert Newton and Stanley Holloway's characters in David Lean's This Happy Breed sing this song several times in the film.
 * The piece has appeared in two episodes of the animated series SpongeBob SquarePants. Squidward's watch plays the song in one episode, and Squidward sings a song to the tune of this song in "Dunces and Dragons".
 * This song appeared as the title card music to an episode of The Fairly OddParents.
 * Rule, Britannia! is played in the first Austin Powers film because Mike Myers believed it was a film cliche to play the song whenever any film changed its setting to Britain.
 * It appears, in a strangulated form, in an exhibition of British artifacts in Flushed Away, along with a somewhat more musical version of Land of Hope and Glory.
 * Since 1971, Arsenal fans have sung a song called Good old Arsenal, which is based on the tune of Rule, Britannia!.
 * A parody of "Rule, Britannia!" ("Britons, ever, ever, ever will be slaves") is chanted by Germans in Andrew Roberts's political satire The Aachen Memorandum, which depicts a future Europe in which Britain has been split into separate states and merged into a United States of Europe.
 * "Rule Britannia!" is whistled by two RAF pilots in the French film La Grande Vadrouille.
 * Used several times in Dan Simmons's book The Terror
 * Michael Flanders & Donald Swann parodied both this song and British composer Benjamin Britten in "Guide to Britten", where the terminal line is "So rule Brittania, while Britten rules the staves, all the music-loving public are his slaves."
 * In the television series Frasier, the episode "Whine Club" includes a parody entitled "Hail, Corkmaster!", sung as part of the inauguration of the wine club's new president.
 * In the book "Ice Station" written by Matthew Rielly one of the main antagonists Trevor Barnaby has a habit of saying "Rule,Britannia" to his enemies moments before their death
 * In the DC Comics Flashpoint event, at the end of issue 3 of "Flashpoint: Lois Lane & The Resistance". As the battle against the conquering Amazons reached its climax, Resistance member Grifter asked UK heroine Britannia how "that song about her went again", referring to "Rule, Britannia!", to which she replied "I think the line you're looking for is... "Britons never, never, never shall be slaves", before charging into one last battle.
 * On The Bill Handel Show radio program based in Los Angeles, CA when discusing stories regarding the British Royal Family, the "Queen" makes a guest appearance whose intro begins with a deep doorbell with resounding "Rule, Britannia!" in the background as the Queen provides her royal non-sequitor address.

Mentions in other songs

 * "Rule Britannia!" is made reference to in David Bowie's song "Life on Mars?".
 * Pink Floyd's song, "Waiting for the Worms", from the album The Wall includes the lyrics "would you like to see Britannia rule again, my friend?"
 * During the fadeout of Pink Floyd's song "Not Now John", from the album The Final Cut, Roger Waters can be heard shouting "Rule Britannia! Britannia rules the waves!"
 * The Pirates Of The Caribbean movie, includes the song theme "Rule Britannia!" in the first movie of the series - Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl. It is performed on the first appearance of the British fort in the movie.

The relationship with Britannia?
Am I right that in the song "Rule, Britannia!" the Britannia means a personified image of the Great Britain? I think it's obvious, but in the article about it does not say. Is there any authoritative sources stating this? Andrew M. Vachin (talk) 16:16, 16 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, you are right.  Esedowns (talk) 14:50, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Native audio example
No disrespect of the performance of the United States Army, but couldn't we get a British performance group to provide the audio sample? I'm sure there are several public domain or full permission recordings by native Britons that can be used that more reflects the actual country this song represents. Michaelopolis (talk) 02:49, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

Add Criticism or Controversy section?
There has been recent controversy about playing it at the Last Night of the Proms.and similar Would having a section addressing this be appropriate? Ta, cm&#610;&#671;ee&#9094;&#964;a&#671;&#954; 13:33, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


 * There have always been people who like it and people who don't, like any song. I'd suggest waiting to see if it goes anywhere, otherwise I think we could put it down to a media organisation making news to publicise its own events and/or presenting a false balance. I think there's a WP policy for this sort of thing, but I can't remember what it's called - something to do with current events being blown out of proportion to their historical relevance (and in this case bear in mind the song will have provoked strong opinions for nearly 275 years... so there's actually quite a bit of history to account for). Wiki-Ed (talk) 13:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Let us add it. Zezen (talk) 08:04, 13 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. If there are reliable sources covering the history of attitudes towards this particular song, then there might be something to draw upoon. I would guess, however, that there are not. If so, this is a non-starter. Wiki-Ed (talk) 20:59, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Wiki-Ed https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-54115935 https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/last-night-proms ?


 * When I said "reliable sources covering the history", that's what I meant, not sensationalised self-promoting news stories. Wiki-Ed (talk) 19:36, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

A bit of history
Here is a bit of history new to me but I cannot verify it. I have copied it here. It puts the mention of "slaves" in Rule Britannia into a totally new context. It transforms the song from bull headed patriotism into triumph over adversity. If anyone has time they might care to track down the book and add to the article.

Date: 28 Aug 20 Author: Alistair Smith, Retired from Royal Navy Submarine Service. Seen by me (Budhen) on Facebook.

Quote begins: Here is something you are unlikely to learn via the BBC. In the 17th century the seas around Britain were ruled by North African Muslim Slavers. They stopped British ships and carried off the crews to be sold as slaves in Algiers and Tripoli. The situation became so bad that fishermen from Devon and Cornwall wouldn’t put out to sea in case they were captured by North African Slave Traders. Between 1609 and 1616, 466 British ships were captured by Slave Traders in the English Channel, Irish Sea and North Atlantic, and the crews were sold into slavery. In 1625 a raiding party landed at Mount’s Bay in Cornwall and 60 people who had taken refuge in a local church were dragged out, loaded up and taken off to Africa to be sold as slaves. On 12 August 1625 the Mayor of Plymouth wrote to London for military help after 27 ships had been seized by North African Muslim Slave Traders in just 10 days. In 1645, 240 people were seized as slaves in Cornwall. The situation only began to change after the end of the English Civil War when the Royal Navy was built up under Oliver Cromwell. By 1700, North African Slavers generally knew better than to bother the British Isles in the search for slaves because of the Royal Navy. It was a triumph that Britain was finally able to control its own coastal waters. It was in commemoration of this that in 1740, James Thompson wrote ‘Rule Britannia’. It is a hymn of thanksgiving rather than a proclamation of aggressive Nationalism. If you get this far and are interested to learn more, read "White Gold" by Giles Milton. Quote ends Budhen 1 Sep 2020 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Budhen (talk • contribs) 20:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Important, ta. Let us add most of it.

Zezen (talk) 08:07, 13 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Its interesting but are you really sure that Rule Britannia was written in specific response to this? There is a bit of a time lag between (according to your timeline) the end of the Barbary threat in British waters and the penning of the song (poem). LastDodo (talk) 10:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Thomas Pellow only escaped and returned home in 1738, so not much time difference there. His relation Edward Pellew was in charge of the British fleet which bombarded Algiers and brought an end to the White slave trade in August 1816. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Was the poem inspired by this though? I guess the real question is what is the evidence that the poem was written in response to the barbary threat (or its ending)? What evidence does Giles Milton give in his book? Did Thomson state this explicitly? LastDodo (talk) 14:16, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I've got the book out of the library and am looking for any references. Unfortunately the only copy they had was the large print book which contains the following notice: "Notes and Sources and the Index have been omitted from this large print edition.  This material can be found in the original edition published by Hodder & Stoughton Ltd." - so about as much use as the proverbial chocolate teapot.  Grrr. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:34, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There's this web page from the BBC "History Extra" site by Adam Nichols, associate professor of English at the University of Maryland which links the words to white slavery. What do you think? Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:54, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There's an interesting parallel to consider in Heart of Oak. That song contains the lines "To honour we call you, not press you like slaves, / For who are so free as the sons of the waves?" which seems to echo the sentiment here.  Heart of Oak was composed in 1759, so of similar vintage.  As I mentioned o the talk page there, Dad, who was RN during his National Service said that this phrase was comparing free English sailors with the slaves needed to row galleys.  Lots of explanations, but little citable fact I'm afraid. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 21:03, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * That Adam Nichols BBC History Extra article does indeed suggest a link, but never makes the claim explicitly. My guess about the line in the Heart of Oak song is that either it relates to the distinctive absence of galley slaves in the Royal Navy (Charles II once bought such a galley but the thing never put to sea), or it is a bit of PR, because the Royal Navy certainly did impress (i.e. conscript) people. I do intend to read White Gold at some point and if it settles the matter I'll come back here to edit and source, but I hope someone can resolve it before then. Its a nice 'did you know' fact to have in your pocket, but we do need to ensure it is actually a fact. LastDodo (talk) 11:43, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * According to the article on the War of Jenkin's Ear, the poem was actually penned as a result of the capture of Portobelo in 1739:
 * During the 1727 to 1729 Anglo-Spanish War, the British attempted to take Portobelo but retreated after heavy losses from disease. On 22 November 1739, Vernon attacked the port with six ships of the line; it fell within twenty-four hours and the British occupied the town for three weeks before withdrawing, having first destroyed its fortifications, port and warehouses.


 * The victory was widely celebrated in Britain; the song "Rule Britannia" was written in 1740 to mark the occasion and performed for the first time at a dinner in London honouring Vernon. The suburb of Portobello in Edinburgh and Portobello Road in London are among the places in Britain named after this success, while more medals were awarded for its capture than any other event in the eighteenth century.


 * The source can be viewed here. LastDodo (talk) 09:31, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I have now read White Gold. Aside from quoting a line from the song, which he does not contextualise, author Giles Milton does not actually mention Rule Britannia! at all. So this book was no help I'm afraid. The book is also clearly not the source of some of the claims made in the Facebook post quoted above, for example it makes no mention of when the seas around Britain became safe, which according to that post is the prompt for the song, focusing instead on the end of the white slave trade after Edward Pellew's bombardment of Algiers in 1816. So we remain in the dark. LastDodo (talk) 11:37, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Well done for undertaking the research, though! It's the sort of thing that takes ages to do, but is essential for making sure our content is properly sourced. MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:48, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Year of poem
The James Thomson (poet) page includes "Thomson's words for "Rule Britannia", written as part of that masque and set to music by Thomas Arne..." indicate it was a 1740 poem, although the year was reverted on this page. What year was the poem written and published? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:30, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
 * The existing citation, Scholes, doesn't support any date for the poem, only for Arne's setting. But ODNB is more specific, suggesting that the poem and the music were written pretty well at the same time. I'll add that information in, with the new citation. MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:49, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Slaves
Reading the lyrics as an exhortation seems fully appropriate; is there any connection between such an exhortation and the rise of the Royal Navy in the preceding century (from modest to mighty) to tackle the threat of Barbary Corsairs and their slaving raids on the British coast?

If there are rightly several interpretations and influences listed in the 'Cultural Significance' section, then it seems strange that the need to defend the coast by ruling the waves - in order that Britons never will be slaves - has not been picked up on by any other contributors:

"There are no records of how many men, women and children were enslaved, but it is possible to calculate roughly the number of fresh captives that would have been needed to keep populations steady and replace those slaves who died, escaped, were ransomed, or converted to Islam. On this basis it is thought that around 8,500 new slaves were needed annually to replenish numbers—about 850,000 captives over the century from 1580 to 1680. By extension, for the 250 years between 1530 and 1780, the figure could easily have been as high as 1,250,000." - (From the WP article on the Barbary slave trade, regarding depredations against European populations as a whole)

Indeed, Englishman Thomas Pellow (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Pellow) had only gained his freedom from slavery in 1738 and had published his memoir in recent years. Surely this must have had some cultural bearing on the poem & song? 2A00:23C7:3119:AD01:39D5:271E:ED49:966A (talk) 20:11, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Potentially erroneous information
The Symbolism section of the page includes the claim that "Disher also notes that the Victorians changed "will" to "shall" in the line "Britons never shall be slaves"." This does not appear to be true. The "never shall be slaves" variation can be found in print at least as early as 1750 (for instance, in https://archive.org/details/bim_eighteenth-century_a-collection-of-loyal-so_1750/page/n39/mode/2up). Perhaps "shall" overtook "will" in the Victorian era, but it seems misleading to say that the Victorians changed it. CreditsideBard (talk) 23:45, 21 June 2024 (UTC)