Talk:Rumi/Archive 4

Eğerçi Hürd Güuyem, aslem Türk est
"Eğerçi Hürd Güuyem, aslem Türk est" [Mawlana]

Simply means "I use Farsi but my origin is Turk". Mawlana is not Oghuz, but Kipchak. He was born in Bakh, but rose in Anatolian peninsula. But of course he is a sun to all of us. If he was Persian, he would be a sun to all of us as today. His ethnic origin must no be a problem for us of course but i think we owe making this information clear to him.

I am from Turkey and I always want to be objective in all discussions. For example in some branches of architecture(Islamic architecture) the Iranis(you can take this both Turks/Kipchak/Oghuz and Persians or only Persians) are subtler.


 * Glad to know your opinion, but I think the problem is in translation . "Hamdeli az Hamzabani khoshtarast" that means "being one in heart is better than being one in language" - says Mollana . "Eğerçi Hürd Güuyem, aslem Türk est"  , that translates as "Although I talk in Indian , but my origin is Turk " .In a Farsi poem , because of the physical appearance of Anatolian people was white , and of Indian people was dark , the poet tended to use them as contrast in poem .That means I'm white but using dark words !! hinduguyem: Hendi (Indian)+ guyam (taking) = I'm talking (in) Hendi : Did he ever talked in Indian?!! Overall that means "I'm Pessimistic in words , but Optimistic in heart". Take care--Alborz Fallah (talk) 14:53, 25 December 2011 (UTC)


 * In Turk-Islamic culture the language of military and government is Turkish, the language of literature is Farsi, the language of science is Arabic. It is a well known fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.171.122.253 (talk) 21:45, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Baza baza...
Baza, baza her ançi hesti baza, Ger kafirü, gebru, putperesti baza, In dergehi ma dergehi növmidi nist, Sad bar eger tövbe sikesti baza — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.97.230.51 (talk) 13:56, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Ethnicity subpage
The debate on Rumi's ethnicity, whether he was Persian, Turkish, Tajik, Afghan or belongs to humanity has been raging on for a long time on this page now. The same old arguments are repeated by newbies, and no constructive decision has resulted. Little effort has been made towards taking this article towards FA and the energy of the contributors is being spent towards deciding on the "vital" question of ethnicity. I propose that first of all a subpage Talk:Rumi/Ethnicity be created where this debate can be continued. The main talk page should be reserved for discussing other improvements to the article. (A similar approach has been taken on a number of other wikipedia articles). Secondly, if no consensus is forthcoming then a request for comment be filed. I am willing to take the lead if no one objects.-Shahab (talk) 03:41, 23 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Your suggestion is good one. However, the debate on his ethnicity is usually done by some new wikipedia users who have no handle on sources and comeup with some slogans.  In reality Fraklin, and Schimmel are top Rumi scholars of the world and their words are final.  The article can use improvement though in terms of Rumi's philosophy.  I suggest the new edition of Franklin be used to expand upon these.  Thank you.--GoshtaspLohraspi (talk) 11:31, 23 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Rumi's philosophy? He wasn't a philosopher in the traditional sense. The ideas espoused by him are not strictly his own but really the dominant Sufi ideas of his period(and I say this after having written nearly 95% of the philosophic outlook section of the article.) Rumi was not a traditional philosopher, not the kind Ghazali was anyway. His real genius lay in experiencing the inexpressible and yet expressing it through his poetry. (What's notable and missing though, is the extent of Rumi's impact on philosophy.) Anyway that is besides the point. My question is: Should we create an ethnicity subpage where everyone wishing to debate Rumi's ethnicity can do it to their heart's content. This would allow this page to focus on other issues and bring some balance.-Shahab (talk) 03:43, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

About the subpage you suggested, Wikipedia is not really a forum. See WP:forum. People that have really fringe claims or reasonable claims, can make an external link based on scholarly sources and put it at end of the article. For example he is what I think is a decent article: and it is linked as an external link. Even nationalist Turkish scholars like Talat. S. Halman: “Baha ad-din (Rumi’s Father) and his family eventually settled in Konya, ancient Iconium, in central Anatolia. They brought with them their traditional Persian cultural and linguistic background and found in Konya a firmly entrenched penchant for Persian culture. In terms of Rumi’s cultural orientation – including language, literary heritage, mythology, philosophy, and Sufi legacy –the Iranians have indeed a strongly justifiable claim. All of these are more than sufficient to characterize Rumi as a prominent figure of Persian cultural history”(Rapture and Revolution, page 266). Other opinions as external links are welcomed by readers are not here in wikipedia for forum talk or to give citations to their on WP:OR. However the article follows top Rumi scholars like Franklin and Schimmel. --GoshtaspLohraspi (talk) 05:07, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes I know he is not a traditional philosopher. But by philosophy in general I meant his "ideas, thoughts, spiritual path" and in one words what he calls the identity ("Andisheh"). The book of Franklin is really a must and the most comprehensive book on Rumi and should be used to expand this article. Good luck on that journey!--GoshtaspLohraspi (talk) 05:07, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. Instead of making a subpage for debating Rumi's ethnicity how about making a subpage seperately of the archived discussions of his ethnicity. Any new reader who has an objection can then be directed to it so can then read up before cluttering up this page with the same old repeated arguments. A similar approach was taken on Talk:Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi regarding the controversy of Mahatma vs Mohandas. Or alternatively, a FAQ on the lines of Talk:0.999... can be put up on the top of the page.-Shahab (talk) 06:28, 24 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Assuming there are no objections forthcoming I am adding a consensus notice on the top of the page. This will help new readers realize that for their objections to be taken seriously, they must be accompanied by reliable sources.-Shahab (talk) 08:30, 29 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Why do you want to create something that does not exist? The phenomena that we are observing here are called "Claims", and not actually "Debate". There are many random claims which nobody cares about, like the claims that Beethoven was black and not a Frisian just because he had curly hairs. Rumi was an ethnic Tajiki born in balkh, he spoke Persian and wrote in Persian which is crucial in understanding and interpreting his mindset. He was a citizen of the Seljuk empire in his later years, not because he liked to be there, but because of the Mongol invasion of his homeland which we would better call it generally "Khorasan". If you ask me, Rumi himself did not care about his ethnicity, anybody who is acquainted with his ideas should know that. He truly belonged to the whole "World". and which culture influenced Rumi the most? There are two major figures who influenced him during his life: Shams-i Tabrizi and Attar of Nishapur.حضرت محمود (talk) 08:09, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Mevlana Sufi scholar of Turkish origin

Bigane meğirid merâ zin kûyem. Der kûy-u şuma hâne-i hod mîcuyem. Düşmen neyem her çend ki düşmen rûyem. Aslem Türkest eğerçi Hindû gûyem” (Beni bu beldede yabancı saymayın. Sizin beldenizde ben evimi arıyorum. Her ne kadar düşman görünüşlüysem de düşman değilim. Farsça yazsam bile aslım Türk’tür). Do not count me in this foreign town. Your beldenizde I'm looking for my house. Although I am not the enemy of the enemy görünüşlüysem. Even if you write Persian, Turk bobb — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.160.72.116 (talk) 21:05, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

-_-
can someone create a wikipage for

"Persian scholars/poets/scientists being claimed by enthusiast Turk nationals" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ditc (talk • contribs) 10:24, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Rumi said these words; Aslem Türk-est egerci hinduguyem (I may speak Persian but Im a Turk) can you explain me why Rumi said these words? read some of his books and find out the truth, its really funny that most people are ensured that Rumi was Persian while he said different things about this ancestry. 188.202.146.57 (talk) 16:28, 4 February 2011 (UTC) Whoever created this page is either very jelous or very stupid.whole world knows that mevlana was turkish. His Father was turkish ,his mother was turkish, Mevlana himself writes that he is turkish. at that time, the place he was born was a turkish land not persian. All you ignorant wiki racists can cry out loud forever.He was turkish and claiming the opposite in ignorant wiki racist pedia will not change this.oh by the way, our iranian friends also claims that the ottoman empire was actually an iranian empire.this is  not just very funny but stupid. have a nice day and stop being stupid please  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.24.202.72 (talk) 03:45, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

It seems the racists are out in for today. All the response to your arguments here:  B) Rumi has no such a poem..Hindu Guyam = speak Indian not Persian.  So you have mistranlated Rumi's poem into Turkish due to lack of knowledge of Persian.  Hindu and Turks are symbols of contrast in Persian poetry and do not take ethnic values.   As noted by Kafardar when quoting the Turkish scholar Golpiranli and such ethnonyms in the works of Rumi:"Golpiranli rightly insists that ethnonym were deployed allegorically and metaphortically in classical Islamic literatures, which operated on the basis of a staple set of images and their well recognized contextual associations by readers; there, "turk" had both a negativeand positive connocation. In fact, the two dimensions could be blended: the "Turk" was "cruel" and hence, at the same time, the "beautiful beloved"(Kafadar, Cemal(2007), "A Rome of One’s Own: Reflections on Cultural Geography and Identity in the Lands of Rum"in Muqarnas: An Annual on the Visual Cultures of the Islamic World, vol 24. Brill.-page 23). And also noted by de Bruijn: “In such imagery the link to ethnic characteristics is hardly relevant, so that it may be used together with features of another ethnic type in the characterization of a single person, e.g., when Neẓāmi describes the princess of Hend as āhu-ye Tork-čašm-e Hendu-zād (“a gazelle with Turkish eyes, of Indian blood” (De Brujn, J.T.P. (2003). “Hindu” in Encyclopaedia Iranica 2003). The Turks in Persian poetry are not Anatolian Turks but the real Turks of Central Asia (Kyrghyz/Kazakhs..) and they are mentioned with round face and small eyes (•	Schimmel, Annemarie(1992). “A Two-Colored Brocade: The Imagery of Persian Poetry”, the imagery of Persian poetry. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. (pg 137-144).) Rumi also says"To Maah Torki o man Agar Tork nistam- daanam beh in qadar keh beh Torkist, Ab su" تو ماه ِ ترکي و من اگر ترک نيستم دانم من اين قَدَر که به ترکي است، آب سُو To Maah-i Torki o man Agar Tork nistam Daanam man in Qadar keh Beh Torki ast, 'aab Su

Professional Translation by Schimmel: You are a Turkish moon, and I, although I am not a Turk, I know that much that in Turkish the word for water is su(Schimmel, Triumphal Sun, pp 196). So why ignore this line? He also states: ""Likewise, it is a well-known story that one day Shaykh Salah al-Din happened to hire Turkish laborers to do building work in his garden. Mowlana said: ‘Effendi’— that is to say lord—‘Salah al-Din, when it is time for building, one must engage Greek laborers and when it is time for destroying something, Turkish hirelings. Indeed, the building of the world is assigned to the Greeks, whereas the world’s destruction is reserved for the Turks. When God—He is sublime and exalted—ordered the creation of the world of sovereignty (‘alam-e molk’), first He created unaware-infidels, and He conferred on them long life and great strength so they would strive like hired laborers in building the terrestrial world. And they built up many cities and fortresses on mountain peaks and places on top of a hill such that after generations had passed these constructions were a model for those who came later. Then divine predestination saw to it that little by little these constructions would become completely destroyed and desolate, and be eradicated. God created the group of Turks so that they would destroy every building they saw, mercilessly and ruthlessly, and cause it to be demolished. And they are still doing so, and day by day until the Resurrection they will continue to destroy in this manner. In the end, the destruction of the city of Konya will also be at the hands of wicked Turks devoid of mercy.’ And this being the case, it turned out just as Mowlana said. ""(See: Shams al-Din Ahmad al_Afkali, Manāqeb al-ʻārefīn, ed. Tahsin Yazici, 2 vols, Tehran, Donyaayeh Ketab, 1983. English translation: Shams al-Din Aflaki, "The feats of the knowers of God: Manāqeb al-ʻārefīn", translated by John O'Kane, Brill, 2002). As noted Annemarie Schimmel, The Triumphal Sun: A Study of the Works of Jalaloddin Rumi, SUNY Press, 1993, p. 193: "Rumi's mother tongue was Persian, but he had learned during his stay in Konya, enough Turkish and Greek to use it, now and then, in his verse". A complete response is also available here:. The problem with the Turkish nationalistic reading of Rumi (which brings about full of contradiction has he has also considered himself Rumi (Greek), Zang (black..)" is the lack of understanding of Persian poetry and the non-ethnic metaphor meanings of Hindu/Hindu, Rum, Turk, Zang, and Habash.

Effendi is a TURKISH word meaning "master" or "sir". Even this proves that Persians and Arabs effected culturally from us and we controlled the for hundreds of years and it was Turkish sphere of influence instead of Arab or Persian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.253.44.19 (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Effendi is actually a Greek word. "The word itself is a corruption of the Medieval Greek afendis (αφέντης), ".  Persian word is Sarvar and also Khwajah (modern Turkish Hoja).  Arabic word is Jenaab (among many other titles) and Turco-Mongolian is Aghaa.  Anatolia was mainly Greek Christian back then, so Effendi entered Muslim languages from there.  It is true though there were mutual influence between Persian, Arabic and Turkish.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.222.120 (talk) 23:13, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia works by WP:RS not WP:OR.

Franklin D. Lewis, "Rumi: Past and Present, East and West: The life, Teaching and poetry of Jalal Al-Din Rumi", Oneworld Publication Limited, 2008 pg 9: "How is that a Pesian boy born almost eight hundred years ago in Khorasan, the northeastern province of greater Iran, in a region that we identify today as Central Asia, but was considred in those days as part of the greater Persian cultural sphere, wound up in central Anatolia on the receding edge of the Byzantine cultural sphere" pg 21:"On the question of Rumi's multilingualism (pages 315-317), we still say that he spoke and wrote Persian as a native language, whote and conversed in Arabic as a learned "foreign" language, could at least get by at the market in Turkish and Greek(though some widely extravagant claims have been made about his command of Attic Greek, or his native tongue being Turkish).  Franklin Lewis is the foremost scholar of Rumi.  Rumi's work is replete with Shahnama (Iranian mythology) but nothing about Turkish mythology.  He also traces his spiritual lineage to Attar and Sanai, not Turks.  We do note consider "Widely Extravagant" claims in Wikipedia.

Discussions
Is this page is for persian propaganda?When reading the page that is strongly attracting our attention!I think By this way persians are showing disrespecting,betraying and mistreating Muhammad Rumi's philosophy!Shame on them!Also nationalism is forbidden in Islam!And look to --Kamuran Ötükenli (talk) 11:26, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Dont mind them mate just let it go, we know better than that, Mevlana his family owns a website on the net and they have the truth on their website, Mevlana himself stated many times in his books that he is a Turk and not Persian, he said these famous words: Aslem Türk-est egerci hinduguyem (I may speak Persian but Im a Turk)

Many people accept Mevlana as Persian because he wrote in Persian which was the literature language at that time, many sources are based on this. By the way Mevlana did know Greek and Turkish, he also wrote in the Oghuz Turkish language and Urdu. If you wish any sources visit www.mevlana.net this website is owned by his family. Redman19 (talk) 20:25, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

"Hindi" is not Persian, it means Hindi (Indian). And Mawlana has no Indian poems. Rather the play Hindu vs Turk is an old Persian symbolism of light vs dark, and has no ethnic affiliation.

Rumi also says"To Maah Torki o man Agar Tork nistam- daanam beh in qadar keh beh Torkist, Ab su" تو ماه ِ ترکي و من اگر ترک نيستم دانم من اين قَدَر که به ترکي است، آب سُو To Maah-i Torki o man Agar Tork nistam Daanam man in Qadar keh Beh Torki ast, 'aab Su Professional Translation: You are a Turkish moon, and I, although I am not a Turk, I know that much that in Turkish the word for water is su(Schimmel, Triumphal Sun, pp 196). The imagery of Turk, Rumi, Hindu and Zang is common in Persian poetry and has been used by many poets. Unfortunately, I doubt any of the people that wrote the comments above have any idea of these. For a detailed article on Rumi's ethnicity, see  where this symbolism is also explained among many other features. Here is an anectode from Rumi quoted by Aflaki (pg 503) about Tukrs vs Greeks. Note he is not putting Turks downs or praising Greeks (in my opinion) but just making an observation: "Likewise, it is a well-known story that one day Shaykh Salah al-Din happened to hire Turkish laborers to do building work in his garden. Mowlana said: ‘Effendi’— that is to say lord—‘Salah al-Din, when it is time for building, one must engage Greek laborers and when it is time for destroying something, Turkish hirelings. Indeed, the building of the world is assigned to the Greeks, whereas the world’s destruction is reserved for the Turks. When God—He is sublime and exalted—ordered the creation of the world of sovereignty (‘alam-e molk’), first He created unaware-infidels, and He conferred on them long life and great strength so they would strive like hired laborers in building the terrestrial world. And they built up many cities and fortresses on mountain peaks and places on top of a hill such that after generations had passed these constructions were a model for those who came later. Then divine predestination saw to it that little by little these constructions would become completely destroyed and desolate, and be eradicated. God created the group of Turks so that they would destroy every building they saw, mercilessly and ruthlessly, and cause it to be demolished. And they are still doing so, and day by day until the Resurrection they will continue to destroy in this manner. In the end, the destruction of the city of Konya will also be at the hands of wicked Turks devoid of mercy.’ And this being the case, it turned out just as Mowlana said. " (pg 503) See: Shams al-Din Ahmad al_Afkali, Manāqeb al-ʻārefīn, ed. Tahsin Yazici, 2 vols, Tehran, Donyaayeh Ketab, 1983. English translation: Shams al-Din Aflaki, "The feats of the knowers of God: Manāqeb al-ʻārefīn", translated by John O'Kane, Brill, 2002.--96.241.114.129 (talk) 05:04, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

As I already explained before Rumi is often mistaken for Persian because he wrote his poems in Persian, Persian was the literature language at the time, many Ottoman sultans also wrote their poems in Persian this doesnt make them Persian right? what Rumi ment by "Hindi" was a language that was hard to understand for many people, in other words this is a reference to the Persian language because he wrote in Persian, UNESCO accepted Rumi as a part of Turkish culture, why are you Iranians still trying to claim him with your Persian propaganda? Rumi was born in Khorasan, this place was mainly inhabited by Turkish tribes (Turkmen) in the time when Rumi was born, there are still many Turks in Iran and present day Afghanistan.

Again some quotes of Rumi: Aslem Türk-est egerci hinduguyem = I may write/speak Persian, but Im still a Turk. Turk gibi cevik ol, Acem (Farsi) gibi miymintilik etme = Be fast as a Turk not slow as a Persian.

Visit www.mevlana.net, you can find the info I just wrote here on there, the real truth is written there, that is the only website on the internet that is owned by his own family.

Even Hamid Baqaee the director of Iranian Cultural and Heritage Organisation (ICHTO) and the Islamic Republic’s vice president called the renowned 13th century "Persian" mystic Poet, Rumi, a ‘Turkish intellectual’. Redman19 (talk) 10:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Without proper understanding of Persian language, translating the sentences is giving wrong information . In Persian poem , because of the physical appearance of Anatolian people was white , and of Indian people was dark , the poet tended to use them as contrast in poem . Aslem Türk-est egerci hinduguyem , that means I'm white but using dark words !! hinduguyem: Hendi (Indian)+ guyam (taking) = I'm talking (in) Hendi : Did he ever talked in Indian?!! Overall that means "I'm Pessimistic in words , but Optimistic in heart" --Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

The first poem of yours states: "Speaking Hindu" not speaking Persian. Hindu and Turk were used as a symbols of Persian poetry, and have no ethnic value here.. "Torki Kon" means to move around, where-as being 'Ajam (Tajik) means to be settled. Also the site you brought has no academic value and you are mistaken. Rumi's Friday sermons, his lectures to his students (which were takens as notes by his students) are also in Persian. This shows it was his everyday language. Also you are selectively quoting Rumi. "You are a Turkish moon, and I, although I am not a Turk, I know that much that in Turkish the word for water is su"(Schimmel, Triumphal Sun, pp 196). As per the website you brought, much more than that has been analyzed here:  As per Hameed Baqai, that is what Turkish newspapers reported by this was denined by Iranian media. Plus we do not quote Hameed Baqai, but Ann Marrie Schimmel and Lewis Franklin who are the top known Rumi scholars.--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 14:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

The sources I gave you were provided by his own grandson, I dont think his own grandson is mistaken about his own roots and that of Rumi right? have you ever been in Konya? you can read this all yourself in the Mevlana Museum. 188.202.146.57 (talk) 12:52, 26 February 2011 (UTC)"

Her ne kadar Farsça söylesem de, aslım Türktür benim. <<< again Rumi clearly states here that he is a Turk, why? you know what aslim means? origins, you can read it yourself in the Mevlana Museum, see it with your own eyes. 188.202.146.57 (talk) 12:54, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

"I have proved many times with documents that Mevlana was a Kaşgar Turk and his family used to speak the Hakani dialect, which belongs to Central Asian languages,” said İsmail Yakıt, the head of the Philosophy and Religious Sciences Department at Süleyman Demirel University in Isparta. He said one of the clear proofs of this argument was Mevlana’s son, Sultan Veled, who was born after Mevlana’s family had moved to Karaman.

“Sultan Veled was born after his family had moved to Karaman. While the whole of Central Asia was speaking the Anatolian dialect, Mevlana was writing in the Hakani dialect,” he said, adding that the Persian language Mevlana had used was actually Anatolian Persian. He said Anatolian Persian language was used by elite people of the region and was also the mother tongue of the Selçuk state." 188.202.146.57 (talk) 13:14, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Rumi's grandson is not alive. You might be talking about his 20th descendant which is not important what he states, since Wikipedia works based on scholars and not here-say. Wikipedia works by using modern Western scholarly sources and experts like Schimmel and Franklin ae clear that Rumi is Persian. As per the verse you brought, sorry your making up a verse. Because Rumi never said those verses and you cannot find it. Rumi wrote his poetry in Persian and he uses the opposition of Hindu and Turk. Rumi also says"To Maah Torki o man Agar Tork nistam- daanam beh in qadar keh beh Torkist, Ab su" تو ماه ِ ترکي و من اگر ترک نيستم دانم من اين قَدَر که به ترکي است، آب سُو To Maah-i Torki o man Agar Tork nistam Daanam man in Qadar keh Beh Torki ast, 'aab Su Professional Translation by Schimmel: You are a Turkish moon, and I, although I am not a Turk, I know that much that in Turkish the word for water is su(Schimmel, Triumphal Sun, pp 196). So why ignore this line? Rumi's Friday sermons, his lectures to his students (which were takens as notes by his students) are also in Persian. This shows it was his everyday language. Also you are selectively quoting Rumi. "You are a Turkish moon, and I, although I am not a Turk, I know that much that in Turkish the word for water is su"(Schimmel, Triumphal Sun, pp 196). Mowlana never wrote in a "Hakani dialect" nor did he anything to do with Kasghar!.. He was born in Wakhsh Tajikistan according to modern sources and he has some mixed Persian-Greek and Persian-Turkish poetry(total Greek/Turkish is less than 1% of his work). Sultan Valad also admits he does not know Turkish well. There is no such thing as "Anatolian Persian" because the Persian of Rumi is understandable to the educated Persian speaker today. I don't need to come to Konya, cause I can read Rumi's work in original Persian. There must have been numerous Turkish dialects at the time, and living in Anatolia, Sultan Valad and Rumi were exposed to these dialects just like they were exposed to Greek. However, even Sultan Valad(Rumi's son) admits he does not know Turkish well. Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West, Oneworld Publications, 2000. pg 239:”Sultan Valad elsewhere admits that he has little knowledge of Turkish " For example in his Ebteda-Nama, Sultan Walad admits twice in Persian after some of the lines in Greek/Turkish. Here is a verse from Sultan Walad (Rumi's son): بگذر از گفت ترکی و رومی که از این اصطلاح محرومی گوی از پارسی و تازی که در این دو همی خوش تازی Translation: "Let go of the languages of Greek (Rumi) and Turkish (Turki) Because you lack knowledge in these two, Thus speak in Persian and Arabic, Since in these two, you recite very well." And also elsewhere in Ghazal in his Diwan, he writes:: If I knew Turkish, I would have brought one to a thousand. But when you listen to Persian, I tell the secrets much better" "Sultan Walad, ”Mowlavi-ye Digar:Shamel-e Ghazzaliyat, Qasayed, Qete’at, Tarkibat, Ash’ar-eTorki, Ashar-e Arabi, Mosammat, Robbi’yyat” Tehran, Sana’i, 1984. pg 556: ترکچه اگر بیلیدم بر سروزی بک ایدیدم طتچه اگر دیلرسز گویم اسرار علا". This shows the family was not Turkish or else Sultan Walad would not admit that his knowledge of Turkish is poor. --96.241.114.129 (talk) 17:05, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I think you better go to Konya and visit the Mevlana Museum you will see yourself that both Franklin and Schimmel got it all wrong, Her ne kadar Farsça söylesem de, aslım Türktür benim this verse is not made up, if you really red Rumis books you would know this but somehow you skipped that part. 195.240.250.105 (talk) 20:35, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Franklin and Schimmel are foremost scholars of Rumi. Furthermore, Mevlana museuem and Konya are build much later than Rumi. As per the line you brought, Rumi did not speak modern Anatolian Turkish and no such word as "Tuktur" is found in his poetry. He did however write in Persian and here is a version: To Maah Torki o man Agar Tork nistam- daanam beh in qadar keh beh Torkist, Ab su" تو ماه ِ ترکي و من اگر ترک نيستم دانم من اين قَدَر که به ترکي است، آب سُو Professional Translation by Schimmel: You are a Turkish moon, and I, although I am not a Turk, I know that much that in Turkish the word for water is su(Schimmel, Triumphal Sun, pp 196). So here clearly says: "I am not a Turk".   Plus as mentioned by others, the term "Turk vs Hindu" (which your line mentions and  not Farsi), is a contrast between beauty and dark.

Rumis own words
‘ASLIM TÜRKTÜR BENİM’ Mevlana’nın neredeyse tüm yazmalarında bulunan rubaisi şöyle: “Yabancı bellemeyin beni, ben de bu ildenim, Sizin vatanınızda kendi yurdumu aramaktayım, Her ne kadar düşman gibi görünsem de, düşman değilim, Her ne kadar Farsça söylesem de, aslım Türktür benim.” the sentence in bold is sometimes written as hinduguyem, this is a reference to Farsça (Persian) not Hindi, both sentences have the same meaning.

@Response: A) All the response to your arguments here:   B) Rumi has no such a poem..Hindu Guyam = speak Indian not Persian. So you have mistranlated Rumi's poem into Turkish. Hindu and Turks are symbols of contrast in Persian poetry and do not take ethnic values. As noted by Kafardar when quoting the Turkish scholar Golpiranli and such ethnonyms in the works of Rumi:"Golpiranli rightly insists that ethnonym were deployed allegorically and metaphortically in classical Islamic literatures, which operated on the basis of a staple set of images and their well recognized contextual associations by readers; there, "turk" had both a negativeand positive connocation. In fact, the two dimensions could be blended: the "Turk" was "cruel" and hence, at the same time, the "beautiful beloved"( Kafadar 2007:23). And also noted by de Bruijn: “In such imagery the link to ethnic characteristics is hardly relevant, so that it may be used together with features of another ethnic type in the characterization of a single person, e.g., when Neẓāmi describes the princess of Hend as āhu-ye Tork-čašm-e Hendu-zād (“a gazelle with Turkish eyes, of Indian blood” (de Burijn 2003).

Rumi also says"To Maah Torki o man Agar Tork nistam- daanam beh in qadar keh beh Torkist, Ab su" تو ماه ِ ترکي و من اگر ترک نيستم دانم من اين قَدَر که به ترکي است، آب سُو To Maah-i Torki o man Agar Tork nistam Daanam man in Qadar keh Beh Torki ast, 'aab Su

Professional Translation by Schimmel: You are a Turkish moon, and I, although I am not a Turk, I know that much that in Turkish the word for water is su(Schimmel, Triumphal Sun, pp 196). So why ignore this line? He also states: ""Likewise, it is a well-known story that one day Shaykh Salah al-Din happened to hire Turkish laborers to do building work in his garden. Mowlana said: ‘Effendi’— that is to say lord—‘Salah al-Din, when it is time for building, one must engage Greek laborers and when it is time for destroying something, Turkish hirelings. Indeed, the building of the world is assigned to the Greeks, whereas the world’s destruction is reserved for the Turks. When God—He is sublime and exalted—ordered the creation of the world of sovereignty (‘alam-e molk’), first He created unaware-infidels, and He conferred on them long life and great strength so they would strive like hired laborers in building the terrestrial world. And they built up many cities and fortresses on mountain peaks and places on top of a hill such that after generations had passed these constructions were a model for those who came later. Then divine predestination saw to it that little by little these constructions would become completely destroyed and desolate, and be eradicated. God created the group of Turks so that they would destroy every building they saw, mercilessly and ruthlessly, and cause it to be demolished. And they are still doing so, and day by day until the Resurrection they will continue to destroy in this manner. In the end, the destruction of the city of Konya will also be at the hands of wicked Turks devoid of mercy.’ And this being the case, it turned out just as Mowlana said. ""(See: Shams al-Din Ahmad al_Afkali, Manāqeb al-ʻārefīn, ed. Tahsin Yazici, 2 vols, Tehran, Donyaayeh Ketab, 1983. English translation: Shams al-Din Aflaki, "The feats of the knowers of God: Manāqeb al-ʻārefīn", translated by John O'Kane, Brill, 2002). As noted Annemarie Schimmel, The Triumphal Sun: A Study of the Works of Jalaloddin Rumi, SUNY Press, 1993, p. 193: "Rumi's mother tongue was Persian, but he had learned during his stay in Konya, enough Turkish and Greek to use it, now and then, in his verse". A complete response is also available here:. The problem with the Turkish nationalistic reading of Rumi (which brings about full of contradiction has he has also considered himself Rumi (Greek), Zang (black..)" is the lack of understanding of Persian poetry and the non-ethnic metaphor meanings of Hindu/Hindu, Rum, Turk, Zang, and Habash. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 14:58, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia works by WP:RS not WP:OR. So Franklin and Schimmel get the final words.

IP and Rumi's origin
An ip  edit thed article and insterted some websites which do not meet WP:RS or do not have any scholarly credentials. The only source he did insert which scholarly credential was Schimmel but he as not understood what Schimmel states: "It is small wonder that the Turks were and still are extremly fond of Mowlana Jalal al-Din RUmi who took his surname Rumi, from the Romans e.g. Anatolian, area were his spent most of his life. He was, as is claimed of Turkish origin."(The Triumphal Sun: A Study of the Works of Jalaloddin Rumi, SUNY Press, 1993, p. 371)  However, Schimmel is discussing Rumi studies in Turkey which claim Rumi as Turkish. But this is not accepted by Schimmel who states: "..Turks are absolutely convinced that Mowlana was a Turk..we shall probably never reach a definite conclusion....Rumi's mother tongue was Persian, but he had learned during his stay in Konya, enough Turkish and Greek to use it, now and then, in his verse" (Annemarie Schimmel, The Triumphal Sun: A Study of the Works of Jalaloddin Rumi, SUNY Press, 1993, p. 193). However if someone's mother tongue is Persian, they are Persian. Furthermore, Schimmel in another book is clear: Annemarie Schimmel, “The Mystery of Numbers”, Oxford University Press,1993. Pg 49: “A beautiful symbol of the duality that appears through creation was invented by the great Persian mystical poet Jalal al-Din Rumi, who compares God's creative word kun (written in Arabic KN) with a twisted rope of 2 threads (which in English twine, in German Zwirn¸ both words derived from the root “two”)”.. So schimmel cannot be contradicting herself and the ip has misread the passage. More importantly, the recent standard in scholarship on Rumi's biography is the book by University of Chicago professor Franklin D. Lewis,

Franklin D. Lewis, "Rumi: Past and Present, East and West: The life, Teaching and poetry of Jalal Al-Din Rumi", Oneworld Publication Limited, 2008 pg 9: "How is that a Pesian boy born almost eight hundred years ago in Khorasan, the northeastern province of greater Iran, in a region that we identify today as Central Asia, but was considred in those days as part of the greater Persian cultural sphere, wound up in central Anatolia on the receding edge of the Byzantine cultural sphere" pg 21:"On the question of Rumi's multilingualism (pages 315-317), we still say that he spoke and wrote Persian as a native language, whote and conversed in Arabic as a learned "foreign" language, could at least get by at the market in Turkish and Greek(though some widely extravagant claims have been made about his command of Attic Greek, or his native tongue being Turkish). --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 14:05, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Thus this widely extragavent claim has no place in Wikipedia as it does not meet WP:weight. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 14:29, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Suggest a separate sub-article under the title "Whirling Dervishes" Kritik1 (talk) 06:48, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Thesecretmeaning, 5 April 2011
Please add a weblink to this free PDF book on Rumi and Sufism. http://www.thesecretmeaning.com/

Thesecretmeaning (talk) 04:55, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Not done: That site does not appear to meet the guidelines on external links. I see no evidence that the author is an expert in the field (or even who the author is, for that matter. Unless you can show clearly that that site provides reliable information, we shouldn't link to it. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:18, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Please add this back
This was a saying of Rumi (under the Islam section), sadly someone removed it:

"In an authentic quatrain composed by Rumi, he tells us:

I am the servant of the Qur'an as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words.

man banda-yé qur'ân-am, agar jân dâr-am man khâk-é rah-é muHammad-e mukhtâr-am gar naql kon-ad joz în, kas az goftâr-am bêzâr-am az-ô, w-az-în sokhan bêzâr-am]

SOURCE: [--Rumi's Quatrain No. 1173, translated by Ibrahim Gamard and Ravan Farhadi in 'The Quatrains of Rumi,' an unpublished manuscript]

SOURCE 2: http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/self-discovery.html

[Here, the Persian word 'bezar' translated as 'quit of' and 'outraged' also means disgusted, fed-up, repelled, estranged. The meaning is that no one should interpret Rumi's speech and poetry as having meanings that do not conform to the revelation and practice of Islam.] " Other translation:

Hazrat Jalaluddin Rumi (Rah) said (Translated), “I am a slave of the Qur’an while I still have life; I am dust on the path of Muhammad (SAW/PBUH), the Chosen One. If anyone interprets my words in any other way, I deplore that person and I deplore his words.”

Taken from: http://islamicamagazine.com/?p=208

So can someone add this again! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.248.2 (talk) 07:18, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure who removed it, but the removal seems to be correct. We do not provide extensive quotations of primary sources on Wikipedia.  We are interested in what reliable, secondary sources have to say about the subject, not so much what the subject had to say about themselves.
 * Also, when you start a new topic, please do so at the bottom of the talk page, not the top. Thanks Qwyrxian (talk) 08:41, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Lovedrunk: how is this anything but blatant advertising?
Smells like advertising. Should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.232.191.16 (talk) 19:45, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

On the Rumi question...
I, for one, am the first to oppose any kind of nationalism slash borderline racism that may pop up here and there in every day life or online in places like wikipedia, but this ongoing discussion concerning Molana's heritage and ethnic background has to be one of the most redundant dialogues to have ever occurred in wikipedian history. Having read the works of Molana in Persian and studied his verses by reading the works of Abdol Karim Soroush, S.H.Nasr, Arjberry, R.A.Nicholson, William Chittick, and others, I am quite confident that in all of the scholarly works that are recognized by serious thinkers, Molana is quoted as being a Persian with little doubt about his ancestry. The move to claim certain Persian historical figures by nationalist regimes (e.g. Turkey, Azerbaijan Republican) is purely political and the former Soviet Union was instrumental in causing this confusion and conflating the issue. A simple reference to Turkey's UNESCO site where it states that the Persian polymath Ibn Sina was a Turk will suffice here (http://www.google.ca/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=turkey+unesco+ibn+sina&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e62d73082e470642&biw=1280&bih=677).

I understand why some Turks are motivated to claim Rumi and other historical figures as their own, not only because they lack a significant number of intellectuals, scholars, poets, or great literary figures in their history, but also because of the obvious fact that these figures are so admired and loved by people around the world. But, heresay and making up quotes and false information is not going to convince anyone that you're right (the people living in your country, however, may be an exception to this- for they too are in need of proclaiming their nationalism through the identification of their ethnic identity with certain historical giants).

I'm just glad to see the fine gentlemen in this discussion board, defending and safeguarding intellectual rights, integrity and honesty by carefully and skillfully supporting their arguments/claims with scholarly sources. I wish I could say the same for those who cite as a reference 'the original family tree of Rumi.' I suggest, for those of you who are not yet convinced that Molana was a Persian, to spend some time and energy in learning the language that Molana wrote and read for most of his life (even if in your view, it was the 'literary language of the time'). You may actually figure out that some of these 'scholarly works' that you read and that are published in Turkey, are not so scholarly, but, instead, pure rubbish full of lies and manipulation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.104.182 (talk) 08:02, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

The Language of Mawlana is Dari (Spoken in Afghanistan) not the Old Persian as Stated in the Books Printed in Iran
Being born in Balkh Province of Afghanistan, Mawlana's book is written in the Dari which quite different from the Persian Language spoken in Iran in names, words and many other aspects (even Iranians can not understand when an Afghan speaks). That is why Iranian people call it Old Persian while that is totally wrong. The terms and words used by Mawlana is still in Practice in Afghanistan. But the people of Iran print in their books and call it Old Persian. The difference of the languages spoken can not be understood by the other people but the best example can be American and British English bu the difference is even to greater extent, for example we call Tomato as "Baadenjan Rumi" while Iranian call it "Gooja Farangi". Now you see the simple names are even different and the terminology, expressions and verbs used by Mawlana is totally different than language spoken in Iran. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.202.138.147 (talk) 06:29, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

"Fewer people in Afghanistan read his poetry because of the decades of war there and the disruption of the educational system. The teaching of classical Persian language in India and Pakistan has probably declined. However, Rumi's poetry remains highly read and appreciated in Iran. I don't know about other Persian-speaking countries, such as Tajikistan, and cities such as Bukhara and Samarkand in Uzbekistan, but I hope that they are still appreciating his poetry. " All the critical editions of Rumi's work today are printed in Iran and there is no separation of Persian speakers of Iran, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Samarqand/Bukhara as not only the written classical language is the same, but the dialects form a continuum (Mashhad-Herat, Badakhshan-Dushanbaeh..) and it is classified by scholars as one Persian family.
 * Tomatoe is a new word that did not existed in any of these languages prior to 100-200 years ago. It comes from the new world.
 * Old Persian is not modern Persian, it is a language from the Achaemenid era. Iranians like all scholars call the poetry of Rumi as "Farsi".  Dari also means Farsi and Ferdowsi uses "Parsi-Dari".  The reason sometimes Dari is used  (and it is modern Persian) is to distinguish it from Middle Persian, Fahlaviyat and other Iranian languages which are also called Farsi in classical sources.
 * Rumi calls his language Parsi: پارسی گو گرچه تازی خوشتر است عشق را خود صد زبان دیگر است
 * Dari is a just another name for Persian.
 * Wikipedia works by WP:RS and Westertn scholars call the language of RUmi as Persian, and Dari is a just another term for Persian.
 * I am Iranian and I can understand when Afghan speaks. Mash-hadi dialect and Herati dialect are very close.   Also the written language is exactly the same.
 * Rumi is most widely read in Iran today in the Muslim world and in its original Persian language, dismissing your hypothesis:
 * Wikipedia does not allow WP:OR (which is what you have done). It is not a WP:FORUM and solely relies on reliable sources, say Lewis Franklin.
 * Rumi according to modern scholars was likely born in Vakhsh (Tajikistan) which was part of the administrative province of Balkh.


 * Thank you! Nothing else to be added. Except maybe that the "tomato" argument is laughable. Both, gūğa farangī (گوجه فرنگي) and bādenğān rūmī (بادنجان رومی), have more or less the same meaning in Persian. The first one suggests a "Frankish" origin of the plant while the second one claims a "Roman" (= Anatolian) origin. In both cases, the name suggests that the plant was not native to the Iranian lands but was imported from the West, hence "Frankish" (farangī) and "Roman" (rūmī), since both words have the wider meaning of "western" or "foreign" in Persian. --Lysozym (talk) 00:04, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Kord11, 30 June 2011
Please add the following link to the External Link section: Original Persian / Farsi text of Rumi's work can be found at: www.RumiSite.com

Kord11 (talk) 15:05, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Jnorton7558 (talk) 03:49, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the Map of Today's Country Borders Rumi has never been to the Current Geographical Area called Iran
Looking at today's country maps, Rumi has bever been to current geographical area called Iran because he was born in Balkh and later on traveled to Turkey and Qunia and stayed there. Now I wonder if he was alive whether Iranian government would give him an Iranian ID or he would be given Afghan, Turk or another name? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.202.138.147 (talk) 09:46, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Iranian means Iranian peoples, not citizen of Iran. Second Rumi was Persian (Tajik) born in what is now Wakhsh in Tajikistan which was part of the greater region of Balkh.

Tajiks and Persian admirers still prefer to call Jalaluddin 'Balkhi' because his family lived in Balkh, current day in Afghanistan before migrating westward. However, their home was not in the actual city of Balkh, since the mid-eighth century a center of Muslim culture in (Greater) Khorasan (Iran and Central Asia). Rather, as the Swiss scholar Fritz Meier has shown, it was in the small town of Wakhsh north of the Oxus that Baha'uddin Walad, Jalaluddin's father, lived and worked as a jurist and preacher with mystical inclinations. *Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings, and Poetry of Jalâl al-Din Rumi, 2000, pp. 47–49. Professor Lewis has devoted two pages of his book to the topic of Wakhsh, which he states has been identified with the medieval town of Lêwkand (or Lâvakand) or Sangtude, which is about 65 kilometers southeast of Dushanbe, the capital of present-day Tajikistan. He says it is on the east bank of the Vakhshâb river, a major tributary that joins the Amu Daryâ river (also called Jayhun, and named the Oxus by the Greeks). He further states: "Bahâ al-Din may have been born in Balkh, but at least between June 1204 and 1210 (Shavvâl 600 and 607), during which time Rumi was born, Bahâ al-Din resided in a house in Vakhsh (Bah 2:143 [= Bahâ' uddîn Walad's] book, "Ma`ârif."). Vakhsh, rather than Balkh was the permanent base of Bahâ al-Din and his family until Rumi was around five years old (mei 16-35) [= from a book in German by the scholar Fritz Meier--note inserted here]. At that time, in about the year 1212 (A.H. 608–609), the Valads moved to Samarqand (Fih 333; Mei 29–30, 36) [= reference to Rumi's "Discourses" and to Fritz Meier's book--note inserted here], leaving behind Baâ al-Din's mother, who must have been at least seventy-five years old." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.222.120 (talk) 13:25, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Annemarie Schimmel, "I Am Wind, You Are Fire," p. 11. She refers to a 1989 article by the German scholar, Fritz Meier:

TURKISH
he was not Persian. He was Turkish. he was born in Konya(Turkey). Konya was Ottoman's land when he was born in. Unesco also has accepted he was Turkish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.104.144.181 (talk) 11:26, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * He was born in Persian speaking Vakhsh not in Konya (he lived in Konya which was culturally Persian). UNESCO is not a WP:RS source but never calls him Turkish...  This stuff has been discussed many times, and only Turkish people make claim on Rumi not being Persian.  Western scholars have accepted him as Persian.


 * Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West, Oneworld Publications, 2000. How is it that a Persian boy born almost eight hundred years ago in Khorasan, the northeastern province of greater Iran, in a region that we identify today as Central Asia, but was considered in those days as part of the greater Persian cultural sphere, wound up in Central Anatolia on the receding edge of the Byzantine cultural sphere, in which is now Turkey, some 1500 miles to the west? (p. 9)
 * Ritter, H.; Bausani, A. "ḎJ̲alāl al- Dīn Rūmī b. Bahāʾ al-Dīn Sulṭān al-ʿulamāʾ Walad b. Ḥusayn b. Aḥmad Ḵh̲aṭībī ." Encyclopaedia of Islam. Edited by: P. Bearman, Th. Bianquis , C.E. Bosworth , E. van Donzel and W.P. Heinrichs. Brill, 2007. Brill Online. Excerpt: "known by the sobriquet Mawlānā (Mevlânâ), Persian poet and founder of the Mawlawiyya order of dervishes" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.18.222.120 (talk) 13:12, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Region from template
I removed the whole section of "Region - Rum - Persia". What the hell does "region" mean ??? That's just an attempt by a bunch of hypocrite Iranians who constantly try to label Rumi as Iranian. For all great people we have a place of birth, a place of death, and ethnicity, what the hell is "region"??? Kasparov49acer 21:51, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I reverted your removal, since a rant against Iranians is not a viable reason to remove something from an article. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:57, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

The reason for my changes is not a "rant against Iranians" but because "Region" does not mean anything !!! What do you mean by region ??? Kasparov49acer 22:07, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

The rant against Iranians is because they are trying to label any Farsi speaker who have ever existed as Iranian ! However, a great deal of those man, like Rumi, Avicenna, Ferdowsi and so on were all Afghans, or at least from today's Afghanistan! Kasparov49acer 23:24, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Region explains to the reader where this individual was active. Your animosity against Iranians means nothing here. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:37, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

User Kansas, I hope you are willing to produce more than "one liners" here. Maybe in your mind my animosity "doesn't mean anything HERE", but it's HERE that I need to preserve the truth and prevent people like you to manipulate that. You are sounding as if "my anomosity" towards Iranians is a valid reason for you to change history. Tell me please, for which other great man have you put "Region" in wikipedia??? Furtheremore, the "Region" where Rumi was ACTIVE was the whole of empire, which was one place at that time. --Kasparov49acer 16:20, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

In case you do care about the truth, the empire in question was the Ghurid empire, which was from Herat, North of Afghanistan. So, Rumi was an Afghan Persian, who was ACTIVE in an Afghan Persian kingdom for most of his life, and then moved to the Ottoman lands.--Kasparov49acer 16:25, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I hope you will stop your childish games and provide us an explanation for your constant changes. Hope it's more than one line.--Kasparov49acer 16:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamaweiss (talk • contribs)


 * I hope you can bring something more relevant than your puerile personal animosity towards an ethnic group. The only truth that wikipedia should be concerned with, is what can be verified.
 * Do you have a reliable published source for your assertion that he was Afghan Persian? There are 8 references that state he was Persian.
 * According to the article he went to Nishapur when he was 18 yrs old, which places him within the area controlled by the Khwarazmian dynasty. What evidence do you have, that he was active during the Ghurid Empire, since he would have been eight years old when it collapsed? Apparently you refuse to see these "truths".
 * Did Rumi live/work in Persia during the Khwarazmian dynasty? Yes.
 * Did he live/work in Rum? Yes. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:45, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

It's fascinating how you make it look as if I have animosity. You bunch of hypocrites have rewritten the history of entire people and nations, pretending to be some sort of objective editors here, while you are engaged in subjective interpretations all along. Of course Rumi was Persian, the whole North of Afghanistan is Persian, the problem is that Persia is defined as Iran in wikipedia, and this brings confusion everywhere. Furtheremore, you didn't answer my question, "for which other great historical figure have you put REGION"??? This is only something that has been added to make it look that all the great Persians of Afghanistan are from Persia, and that Persia means IRAN !--Kasparov49acer 17:15, 26 July 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamaweiss (talk • contribs)
 * Frankly I don't understand what Region=Rum, Persia means. Rum was the name given to the former Roman Empire territory by the Seljuks. In this case it was Anatolia, present Turkey. It had nothing to do with Khwārazm-Shāh dynasty which was much further in the east. I don't think we need the Region information in the sidebox. But if used, Region= Rum (modern Turkey) is a much better alternative. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The Region - Rum, Persia was to indicate where Rumi traveled/had influence. Not a literal translation of some place called Rum in Persia. From what I have read he was in Baghdad and Konya(living there by 1215-1220), so the Region section should read:Sultanate of Rum(Konya)-line break- Abbasid Caliphate(Baghdad). Baghdad(undoubtedly before 1258!) may or may not be a legend but should be included for the reader.. Your thoughts. --Kansas Bear (talk) 06:09, 7 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I must say that I believe that editors to this article are trying to promote a "pan-Iranian" hero as it were; however, I do not believe that Kansas Bears' edit in the infobox has contributed to this bias. Maybe it would be best to just make it clear in the introduction where he was active? I have done a little research on Rumi today and it does seem as though the article has a Persian-bias. Take this quotation for instance:
 * "But the Turks claim Rumi was Turkish, and the Iranians claim he was Iranian a long-running debate that will probably never be resolved". (Ramazani, Nesta (2002:211) The Dance of the Rose and the Nightingale, Syracuse University Press, (ISBN 081560727X)).
 * Why does this article not state that there is a genuine debate about his ethnicity? There seems to be a bunch of footnotes alongside the claim that he is Persian which seems to be done to make it look more legitimate. Turco  85 ( Talk ) 23:50, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * As Ramazani being of Iranian descent, I can understand what does he mean . Genuine debate in his dialogue is referring to internationalism of Mollana . By showing his ethnicity , [Most of Iranians] only want to show his original ethnicity and not a national hero out of him , simply because he was clearly anti-nationalist and international . Many times in his poems he has said that he does not pays a damn for material world and national matters and he was only considering spiritual concerns . There is no doubt about his Iranian ethnicity , but he was not never ever a nationalist.Mentioning his original ethnicity is necessary for understanding his ideas , as knowing Persian language that was his language . Many writers believe that the poem can not be translated at all and must be read in original language. --Alborz Fallah (talk) 05:35, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the user:Kasparov49acer and Yamaweiss in removing 'Region' from the template. As mentioned above, placing this template creates confusion.--Artacoana (talk) 01:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

You hypocrites make it look as if there is a debate here !!! What exactly is the debate ??? He was a Persian from Afghanistan, and there are hundreds of sources to support that he was born in Afghanistan and that he was a Persian !!! 50% of the population of Afghanistan are categorized as Persians (Tajiks and Hazaraas) and it is from this background that Rumi comes! How does the Iranian claim that he is Iranian ??? I won't even talk about the Turks and the claim that he was a Turk! --Kasparov49acer 03:26, 26 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yamaweiss (talk • contribs)
 * Yamaweiss, It's better you read the article archives. Xooon (talk) 08:14, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Alborz Fallah, can you please provide us with any proof that he was Iranian ??? I hope you guys are realizing that the only reason why you are winning this whole debate, and that all great Afghans are labelled as Persians/Iraninans, is because of your numbers ??? There are obviously no afghans involved in wikipedia (the country is at war ), so the Iranians have free reign in manipulating history without any opposition. As long as the "objective" Western contributors are concerned, they are as biased and hypocrite as you can get!!! I just hope that some of them have a desire for the truth and fix all this nonsesne.--173.178.179.154 (talk) 00:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC) Kasparov49acer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.178.179.154 (talk) 00:49, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Hegel on Rumi's origins
Hegel says (Chapter: The Symbolic Art form p.17): '...Pantheistic poetry has had, it must be said, a higher and freer deverlopment in the Islamic world, especially among the Persians. Facing the Divine which appears to him in everything, the poet empties himself of himself so that, when he has entirely immersed himself in the eternal and absolute, it may entirely flood his soul. Here the Persian poet Jalal-ed-Din Rumi, who has lately been so well-translated by Friedrich Ruckert (1788-1866) is to be ranked first...' (Hegel: On the Arts [abridged and translated by Henry Paolucci]

(Chapter: Poetry p. 155) Hegel states: 'The full flowering of Persian poetry comes instead at the high of its complete transformation, in speech and national character through Mohammadanism...the far traveled Saadi was master, before it submerged itself in thd depths of the pantheistic mysticism taught and recommended in the extraordinary tales and legendary narrations of the great Jalal-ed-Din Rumi... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.58.133.239 (talk) 18:31, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from, 25 November 2011
Third paragraph, second line.....who were considered devious by ....Should have "devious" replaced by "deviant" or an equivalent please! to make proper sense. (Devious is de rigeur with rulers, deviation from faith is disputable)

SBader (talk) 10:22, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Done. Banaticus (talk) 05:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)