Talk:Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic/Archive 1

Old talk
According to an encyclopedic dictionary I have from the late cold war era, it's entry on this topic begins as;

"Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. formerly Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic"

Would anyone happen to know the date of official change from the name Federated to Federative with cyrillic versions of both, for the disambiguation of reference to the RSFSR in proper context for timeline? Nagelfar 10:32, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * That seems to be a misunderstanding. In Russian, there is no difference between federated and federative. Perhaps only the English name has changed. &mdash; Monedula 12:47, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Okay, well the source of this as I've found it was the 'Tormont Webster's Illustrated Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1987 Houghton Mifflin Company.' Nagelfar 00:58, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Name in Revolutionary times
Bolshevist Russia says:

The official name of the country was the Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic. Strictly speaking, there is a small time gap between the October Revolution and the declaration of the RSFSR (and a still larger gap to its first Constitution, in 1918),...

Soviet Russia says:

Russian SFSR (Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic), the Soviet Russian state officially founded in 1918, some months after the October Revolution of 1917

But this article on the Russian SFSR says

In English, the term Bolshevist Russia is commonly used for the period 1917–1922. In Russian official documents of the time it was referred to as Russian Republic (Российская республика) and Soviet Republic (Советская республика).

So what was the official, or commonly-used name before formation of the the USSR? —Michael Z. 2006-10-28 22:28 Z 


 * Russian Republic was founded on 1917-09-01 - before October Revolution. And then it's first "soviet" name was not Russian Soviet Federated Socialist Republic but Russian Socialist Federated Soviet Republic (1918-1936), until the new 1936 USSR Constitution changed the order of words.80.240.220.40 22:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Proposed move to Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic
It seems that given that the formal name for this nation was "Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic", the soviet prefix abbreviation (-"SFSR") shouldn't be in the full article name. Therefore, I propose to move the article to its full form, Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic. We wouldn't have an article about North Korea titled "DPRK", would we? --Micahbrwn (talk) 10:06, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Please discuss this multimove here --Lox (t,c) 11:42, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction
The infobox states the republic lasted until 1991, but some ASSRs ended in 1992, according to their Wikipedia pages. ☆ CieloEstrellado 22:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
 * 1991 was when the RSFSR became the Russian Federation. The ASSRs which existed within the RSFSR continued to exist within the Russian Federation, until their status changed in 1992.  So, there really is no contradiction here.  Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 13:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The RSFSR still existed in 1993,the national emblem was unchanged,and the constitution remained mostly the same. Russain federation,was the commonly used name for the RSFSR,like the United States is used for the USA. Adopting a simplified name does not constitute a different country. Both the USSR,and the Russian Federation(the one Dimitry Medvedev now leads),share the same identify the creation of their identity,with the creation of the RSFSR,as evidenced by national days,such as Border Guards Day,and awards which cellabtrate years of 1917 and 1918. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.181.137.151 (talk) 16:06, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * In 1993, "Russian Federation" was not just a "common name", it was actually the only official name of the state. The name was officially changed by the Law #2094-1 of December 25, 1991, although that law also allowed to use "RF" and "RSFSR" interchangeably for clerical purposes during 1992 (but not 1993 onward).  Whether the pre- or post-constitutional crisis Russia were direct continuations of the RSFSR is not something you (or me, or any other editor) can just state based on "the facts out there" (such as the national days and suchlike) without supporting such a statement with reliable sources.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 13:45, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

The reliable source,is,having the same constitution and national emblem.

Listen and understand,the RSFSR still existed in the years 1991,1992,and 1993,simplifying the name does not mean a different ccountry. take a look at this Order of Friendship of Peoples,it was introduced in 1991,and lsted till 1994,it still says RSFSR! http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Орден_Дружбы_народов Bolegash (talk) 01:46, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
 * A "reliable source" is a source that meets WP:RS. Anything else (like figuring out the name and the official status based on what an inscription on some order says) would be original research.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 14:24, November 9, 2009 (UTC)

Urgh,the RSFSR was not disestablished in 1991,the name was changed and it left the USSR,Consitution and national emblem remained the same thats all! If changing the name consitutes a differennt country,there should be pages for Russian Republic,Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic,Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic,etc. 174.54.139.150 (talk) 00:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Do you people understand that here,the RSFSR law is still in place in 1993,do you not see the RSFSR emblem on the podium? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioXt3RT5ueA If The United States of America renamed itself to The United States,adopted a different flag and anthem,would you call it a different country? 174.54.139.150 (talk) 01:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you understand that you have to provide the proof that RSFSR was in place until 1993 by citing reliable sources, not by shouting? Are you saying that Russian Empire existed until 1924 Soviet Constitution? A state is a system of government, not a paperwork. - Altenmann >t 03:44, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Map has errors
Parts of Finland (The leg towards Leningrad/Saint Petersburg reached all the way until Rajajoki/Sestrorechk, some 22km from the center of Leningrad. The other hand in lapland went to Kalastajasaarento/Ribatskij polostrov) That was 1917-1939. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.186.206 (talk) 20:26, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

French ASSR??
French ASSR is listed under the list of ASSRs ("*French ASSR (1975-1991)" in the article), but not in the article Autonomous republics of the Soviet Union. A quick check on Google also indicates there was probably no French ASSR...

I've removed it. If I'd made a mistake can someone please put it back? Thanks! Kpufferfish (talk) 09:53, 18 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, you didn't make a mistake; it's obviously an uncaught instance of vandalism that survived for a while. Unless it was an ASSR with its capital in this Paris :)))  Thanks!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:14, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Split
I think that there should be two articles, one on the subdivision of the USSR and one on the RSFSR as a country preceding the USSR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.205.198.199 (talk) 19:58, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

different maps of the RSFSR, redirect
there should be different maps showing how the RSFSR gave the Central Asian Republics their own Republics, and how they were part of the RSFSR before the Soviet Union officially formed in 1922.

Also, Soviet Russia should NOT redirect here, because when most people say Soviet Russia, they mean the Soviet Union as a whole. Only when they say Russian SFSR, or Russian SSR[sic], do they mean this.Tallicfan20 (talk) 13:31, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Soviet Russia
I have reverted the addition of the term "Soviet Russia" to the lead. That term, which was a rather loose and informal one, was typically used in the West in relation to the USSR as a whole. Few people in the West bothered about or even understood the federative structure of the Soviet Union and even the term "Russia" was often used to mean USSR in those times. See for example, some books: "U.S.S.R - The Story of Soviet Russia", "Books on Soviet Russia 1917-1942", etc. Nsk92 (talk) 13:59, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed.

Nazi Flag
Why on god's earth is there a Nazi Flag representing East Prussia? I mean come on! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.50.104 (talk) 16:28, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I would think it's because the RSFSR annexed what is now Kaliningrad Oblast from Nazi Germany, which makes the latter one of the predecessors.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); January 28, 2011; 16:31 (UTC)
 * Ding ding ding!--Львівське (talk) 16:47, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh wow, I actually win something :) But then, of course, one could also make a case that by the time of the annexation Nazi Germany no longer existed, so technically the flag does not belong...—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); January 28, 2011; 17:07 (UTC)
 * True, but it was when it was invaded...so...--Львівське (talk) 18:31, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Requested Move — in song form

 * Do you know that many people call "Russian SFSR", Soviet Russia?
 * Don't you see the heated conversion that will start because of this? -- Some Dude With AUserName (talk with me!) 03:26, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Finally correct
Good thing someone fixed the dissolution date. The 1991-1993 Russian Federation had more in common with the RSFSR and a RSFSR based constitution, unlike today's "Russian Federation".

174.54.135.108 (talk) 20:44, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Problem is, people so strongly associate the modern Russian Federation with the dissolution of the Soviet Union (rather than with the adoption of the 1993 Constitution), this is bound to be "corrected" again in the future. That the RSFSR was renamed in 1991 doesn't help the matters :) It's funny, though, that the 1917 establishment date (which is five years prior to the creation of the Soviet Union) doesn't give the correctors pause for all the same reasons!—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); April 3, 2012; 20:53 (UTC)


 * The Russian SFSR was really founded in 1917, not in 1922, when the Union was created. The name Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic was used during Lenin's era too, from November 1917 to December 1922. And the RSFSR was disetablished in 1991, not 1993. Though no new constitution was adapted, it wasn't "Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic" then. Look at this:


 * Russian? Yes, it was indeed Russian.
 * Socialist? Not at all! It was anti-socialist as hell! Much more right-wing then than now.
 * Federative? Yes, but not with ASSR's, just with oblasts. So it was a federation but not a federative Soviet republic.
 * Soviet Republic? No, there were 1. No Soviet councils in the country and 2. It wasn't socialist. So it doesn't fall into any of the defination of "Soviet Republic".


 * It wasn't called a Soviet republic during the alcoholic Yeltsin's regime. See the article about the Russian Constitution of 1978. The last amendment before the fall of the union was in November 1991. So it wasn't changed before the USSR's fall. The first amendment to the constitution after the fall of the Union was at 21 April 1992: The Russian SFSR was formally disetablished. It changes name to "The Russian Federation". So claiming that the RSFSR existed after this is pointless. And the date should be set to December 26, 1991, as this was the date that the Union fell apart, though it took 4 months to get the Constitution changed.


 * After this, what is the point with argumenting for that the RSFSR existed until 1993? It isn't true. 188.113.91.110 (talk) 14:06, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Renaming an entity (in 1991) is not the same as replacing it with another (in 1993).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); October 29, 2012; 12:11 (UTC)
 * The lead texts clearly states that the name changed constitutionally in 1992 (even when the name Russian Federation started to be used in 1991), so I have changed it accordingly. --Againme (talk) 09:53, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Communist Russia Redirect
Should Communist Russia redirect to Soviet Union or Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic? Please respond on Talk:Soviet Union. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk • contribs) 00:50, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Russian SFSR. The Soviet Union included other states. It would make as much sense as linking England to the United Kingdom. Illegitimate Barrister 23:07, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Constitution
The article currently quotes the 1925 Constitution:


 * According to a quotation will of the peoples of the Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic, have decided to Tenth All-Russian Congress of Soviets on the formation of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the Russian Socialist Federal Soviet republics of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the transmit powers of the Union, classified in accordance with Article 1 of the Constitution of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the purview of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

This is pretty garbled English, and I'm fairly confident it came from an automatic translation. It's confusingly worded, and while I think I get the idea of what it's trying to say, I'm really not sure, and my Russian is nonexistent to check. Should we just remove it until we can get an understandable translation? Andrew Gray (talk) 19:04, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I've changed it, hopefully for the better. Please feel free to add final touches to it (or post here if any part still remains unclear). Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); February 21, 2013; 19:19 (UTC)


 * It looks a lot clearer now - спасибо! :-) Andrew Gray (talk) 22:31, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 22 August 2013
Start with the following text: The Soviet regime first came to power on 7 November 1917—immediately after the Russian Provisional Government, which governed the Russian Republic, was overthrown in the October Revolution—although the state it governed—which did not have an official name— would be unrecognized by neighboring countries for another five months.

On 25 January 1918—at the third meeting of the All-Russian Congress of Soviets—the unrecognized state was renamed the Soviet Russian Republic. Please get rid of the dashes; there are so many of them that I'm having trouble piecing together the sentence structure. I'm imagining something such as the following: The Soviet regime first came to power on 7 November 1917, immediately after the Russian Provisional Government, which governed the Russian Republic, was overthrown in the October Revolution. The state it governed, which did not have an official name, would be unrecognized by neighboring countries for another five months.

On 25 January 1918, at the third meeting of the All-Russian Congress of Soviets, the unrecognized state was renamed the Soviet Russian Republic. How's this?

2001:18E8:2:1020:FCFB:D6EF:1ABC:E637 (talk) 17:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Done with wikilinks and previous formatting maintained. Rivertorch (talk) 06:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

No information from 1960s through 1980s
What's up with that? --Asmetr (talk) 15:59, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This :)—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); February 3, 2014 ; 16:11 (UTC)

Why did you put the end of Soviet Russia to 1993? Why don't you put in 1991/1993, it makes better sense95.252.50.235 (talk) 20:36, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

RSFSR as the world's largest administrative division by area
Should it be mentioned that, during the late Soviet period at least, the Russian SFSR was the largest administrative division in the entire world? In addition to being the largest division of the world's largest sovereign state, the RSFSR was itself larger than any sovereign state in the world (other than the state containing it, obviously). After all, Canada -- the second largest sovereign country -- is only about half the size of the RSFSR. Can any administrative division today claim the distinction of being larger than any sovereign state except its own? I cannot see how this would be possible unless the modern Russian Federation establishes an administrative division that will be larger than all of Canada. --75.119.247.20 (talk) 22:12, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Old map...
Is there any possibility we can get an old map from 1924 era with old borders ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.227.184 (talk) 09:25, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

today part of...
China? What territory exactly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BountyFlamor (talk • contribs) 00:22, 10 December 2016 (UTC)

'Chechen Republic of Ichkeria' Is it? This was an unrecognised state 194.74.103.35 (talk) 11:30, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Article editing
There are certain users who have been editing other SSR articles on Wikipedia for the past year, by stating that the soviet republics existed until the adoption of their new constitutions in the mid-1990s.

Russian SFSR declared itself independent and changed its name to Russian Federation in 1991, and there are absolutely no arguments to back up that this state existed until 1993. That would be rewriting history. A new state is not just a matter of all-new constitutions, but also of its status and form of government. Afghanistan has had a lot of states since the abolishment of monarchy in the 1970s: the First Republic (1973–1978), Democratic Republic/Second Republic (1978–1992), the Islamic State (1992–2001), the Islamic Emirate (1996–2001), the Afghan Interim Administration (2001–2002), the Afghan Transitional Administration (2002–2004), and the present-day Islamic Republic since 2004. Yet they have only had four constitutions since then: 1976, 1987, 1990 and 2004. Is that to say that we should change these year spans totally as well, so that most of these states didn't exist? The People's Republic of Hungary ended in 1989, but an all-new constitution was first made in 2011. Should we also say that the PR of Hungary existed until 2011, then? That would make little sense. Although Russia did not adopt a new constitution before 1993, there's no doubt about that it was a totally different state. It had a totally different form of government, its name was changed, it was an independent state (not a federated state), it was not a Soviet socialist republic. These factors are a lot more independent than the adoption of an all-new constitution. And although the constitution was not all-new, and formally the same constitution although heavily amended, it was amended to fit a new state and was not really the same constitution in practice. You'll have to agree that the 1991 transition is a lot more historically significant change in Russia's history than the adoption of a new constitution.  A.h. king  • Talk to me!  21:03, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ --TarzanASG (talk) 05:11, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 04:39, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

RSFSR, also known as the Russian Federation
I would like to suggest that saying "The Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic [...], also known as the Russian Federation" makes just as much sense as saying "The Kingdom of France [...], also Known as the French Republic". Those are two different political entities and even though they coincide geographically, neither was ever "also" known as the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.205.240.147 (talk) 20:27, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
 * You are wrong. --TarzanASG (talk) 07:53, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I own a bunch of English-language books published in the USSR. "Russian Federation" was indeed occasionally used to refer to the Russian SFSR, and this applied to other republics too, e.g. the Turkmen SSR could also be referred to as the Turkmen Republic (or just Turkmenistan.) Just because Russia today is officially known as the Russian Federation doesn't mean that "Russian Federation" wasn't used as a shortened way to refer to the Russian SFSR. --Ismail (talk) 06:17, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Form of government
Under the Government section in the infobos it says "Leninist one-party state (1917–1924) Stalinist one-party state (1924–1953) Federalist Marxist-Leninist one-party Soviet-style socialist republic (1953–1990)"

Is there any citation to that? Wasn't it also a Soviet-style socialist republic under Lenin and Stalin? Leninist and Stalinist are more ideologies than forms of government either. Janomoogo (talk) 23:25, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 10 October 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved - stable consensus to keep current title, since "Soviet Russia" is ambiguous (non-admin closure) Colonestarrice (talk) 21:13, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic → Soviet Russia – To represent the whole period of the Soviet rule in Russia, which began in 1917 with the October Revolution (under the name "Russian Soviet Republic") and ended in 1993 with the ban of Soviets (under the name "Russian Federation"); It was only called "Russian SFSR" for the largest part of its existence CapLiber (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm leaning on opposing and when trying to verify what the article says I see you've already changed it. The lead prior to your changes seem much more professional in my opinion. --Gonnym (talk) 20:09, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME. I think the proposed title is a much more common English name for this topic. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:43, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Support as Soviet Russia is the common English name, but the lede should be similar to the Soviet Union and United Kingdom pages, something like "The Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, commonly known as Soviet Russia, was..." Thespündragon 01:19, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
 * switching my vote to Weak Oppose due to Soviet Russia being used for both the RSFSR and USSR. Probably redirect Soviet Russia to the disambiguation instead of here. Thespündragon 03:21, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose – I'm afraid I have to oppose this, however nice this proposal would be in other circumstances. The problem, you see, is that 'Soviet Russia' is usually used as a metonym (pars pro toto) for the USSR as a whole...and is therefore ambiguous. The actual RSFSR is rather rarely referred to in English, and so can hardly be said to be the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Whilst one might say we should not encourage such usage, if we think of our readers first, per WP:NATURALNESS, this move just doesn't make sense. The more obscure RSFSR should remain subordinate to the common usage in reference to the USSR. This clearly has been a long-running issue...look at the edit history at Soviet Russia. RGloucester  — ☎ 01:58, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose: As said above, it is too likely this change would result in confusion. Applodion (talk) 10:07, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose, "Soviet Russia" being used for the USSR is likely the primary topic. Patar knight - chat/contributions 15:53, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose per above and lede should be reverted to what it was before nominator edited it עם ישראל חי (talk) 21:09, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose per 's concerns about ambiguity. 142.160.89.97 (talk) 04:50, 17 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Soviet Russia" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Soviet Russia. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Soumyabrata talk contribs subpages 06:29, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

A separate article about Soviet Russia
Russian Wikipedia has a separate article for the RSFSR during the period 1917-1922, when it was a sovereign state and was not part of the Soviet Union. Should we do the same on the English Wiki?  'Doomer1557'  ( talk) 11:30, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I totally agree on that. During its years as the constituent republic of the Soviet Union, RSFSR lost most of its actual power even compared with other Soviet republics until the very end of the USSR in 1990 when it started regaining authority. I think, the most appropriate name for the article would've been "Soviet Russia (1917–22)". (CapLiber) (talk) 09:48, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

1991-1993
Why we can't add the remaining 1991-1993 references including the infobox? The state itself was dissolved on December 25, 1993 once the new constitution came into effect. -174.89.100.194 (talk) 04:00, 16 June 2021 (UTC)


 * 1993 is not accurate. The Russian SFSR was a part of the Soviet Union, which ceased to exist in 1991. Afterwards the Russian Federation succeeded it. In 1993 the state was not dissolved, rather its political system was changed. Mellk (talk) 06:34, 18 June 2021 (UTC)

Historical names
We do not need historical names of the Russian SFSR in the infobox. would we do the same for flags? no it is ridiculous. --Aaron106 (talk) 00:07, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Date
Why do people continue to pretend that this country ended in 1991 with the USSR when it's constitutional law was in force until the 1993 Constitutional Crisis?

172.58.206.232 (talk) 19:54, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

History summary section should include addition of Kaliningrad
Transfer of Crimea to Ukrainian SSR is mentioned but not the prior event in 1946 (they are both included in the main History section) Lawrence18uk (talk) 17:55, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Anthem
Need the anthem of 1993-now Joysriramsarkar.manathetiger56 (talk) 20:11, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Anthems
Why are the anthems gone please add them back 2603:8090:2000:B763:20B7:1944:9B22:6C07 (talk) 13:02, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2022
Add Chechen Republic of Ichkeria to the succeeded by section 65.102.189.81 (talk) 03:05, 22 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. Goldsztajn (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2022 (UTC)