Talk:Russian White, Black, and Tabby

Comments
As the person who put up the information I'm personally not fussed whether the pages are merged or not. In the future I intend to put far more information here with relevent cross references to published works.

The Russian Blue may not have additional colours where you live, but in Australia, New Zealand and South Africa non-blue Russians have full championship status and are regularly shown. It is often stated that the Russian Blue is a "natural" breed, however examination of the early texts by Harrison Weir or Frances Simpson clearly shows that the blue cat in the UK was interbred between local cats and those coming from the Baltic. Also these "russian" cats came in many colours, including white and blue tabby, and the very earliest "russians" identified by Harrison Weir were in fact semi longcoated tabbies! At the same time in the US blue cats were called many things including Maltese amongst others. Like all domestic cats, breeds are an artificial construct created by selection over many generations. If you compare the earliest photos of the "Russian", they bear little resemblance to the cats shown today. I have no objection to people maintaining their "romantic" view of the Russian cat but as a serious breeder I'm interested in researching the facts and presenting them for people to make up their own minds.

Oz mike (talk) 22:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I would not merge this page with the Russian Blue page.

They are 2 very distinct entities and look nothing alike. The Russian Blue is a natural-occuring, blue only breed and is recognized by every major registry.

The "Russian" white (and other colors) is a hybrid and only recognized by Australian registries and in the US by only only 2 smaller registries and then on a provisional basis. Indeed there is some controversy in some circles to even referring to them as "Russians."

Merging the 2 documents could confuse the reader that the Russian Blue has additional colors, which it does not. Tkeiger 18:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)tkeiger

The only controversy with the Russian colors is with CFA breeders in N America! They choose not to recognize the other colors, that is their choice, other registries, including the other two main N American registries (TICA & ACFA), the registries in S Africa, LOOF in France, some smaller european independant registries, GCCF in England, all choose to either recognize the russian colors as a provisional breed, or as a full championship breed, in addition to the registries in Australia and New Zealand, who accept the Russian Whites and Blacks as a full championship breed to compete alongside the Russian Blues! Indeed, the University of Sydney did genetic tests on the Russian Blues and Russian Whites and found the only difference genetically between them was the color gene. Same cat, different paint on the outside. It is unfortunate that the CFA RB breeders want to label the Russian White as a "hybrid" when if one studies pedigrees on todays N American style Russian Blues, you find they have come from nothing but hybrids themselves, indeed two of the first "official" CFA registered Russian Blues imported into N America were the products of a British Shorthair dam (who has Persians in her background) and a Russian Blue sire (who has "unknown" alley cats in his background), see: http://www.pawpeds.com/db/?a=p&id=374665&g=4&p=rus&date=iso&o=0.5 All breeds started somewhere with some mixing and matching going on and it is false advertising to insist your breed is pure and not a "hybrid" when pedigrees prove you wrong. Most "American style" Russian Blues can trace their ancestry back to Dunloe Aphrodite de Casa Gatos.

I fully support merging the two pages because they are indeed the same breed whether CFA breeders want to admit it or not. While they can keep the colors from being registered in CFA, they are not a good source of factual information about the other colors. In fact, just the opposite, their website perpetuates the myth that Russians are a natural breed which they certainly are NOT and that the other colors are a product of extensive hybridization which is not true!! . As Mike and others have written, the Russian Blue is very much a product of hybridization. The other colors of blue, white and tabby are descended from one white female cat and the ONLY breed used to recreate the other colors was the Russian Blue. At NO TIME were these cat crossed with other breeds. I support merging the two pages because factual information needs to be presented about the colors not just one assocations (CFA) narrow minded viewpoint !

Carolhm (talk) 04:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

They Are Very Differnet things, they do not need to be merged User:203.122.240.118 (talk) 10:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Do Not Merge
As a member of FASA i'm of the opinon that these two pages must be kept seperate as most bodies treat them as different breeds

--Prom3th3an (talk) 11:54, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Do Not Merge
From all the research that I have done, merging these two breeds makes no sense. Few registries that do recognize the colors and when they do it is as another breed. They were outcrossed with another cat to get the colors. If one was to merge these two breeds, then using that same logic, the Siamese/Orientals/Colorpoints/Javanese/Balinese should all be merged into one breed (as they all originated with the Siamese) as well as merging the Exotic Shorthair and Persian or the Abyssinian and Somali. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.155.113.66 (talk) 01:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Merge or do not merge
Does not matter, those who don't want the merge are just wrong on their facts. In associations where the Russian colors are recognized, they are NOT recognized as a seperate breed, they are recognized as a Russian cat, in blue, white, black or tabby. They are shown in the same class against each other. No different than say, a Siamese, where chocolate, blue, seal and lilac points are all shown against each other as the "Siamese cat". Color does NOT make a different breed and NO association makes a different breed just based on color! The people in the one association in N America need to get over themselves as they are only one small part of the worlds cat fancy, they are allowed to accept what breeds and colors they want, but they don't get to dictate what the rest of the world accepts and shows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.242.235.229 (talk) 07:55, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Russian (cat)
I am redirecting Russian (cat) to here. It seems to be a simple content fork. Some of the content may be worth merging. The Merge proposal for this page seems to have been lost in a different proposal to merge this article with Russian Blue.

The content of [[Russian (cat)] was : During the early 1970s, Mavis and Dick Jones, [[Russian Blue]] breeders in Australia, mated a domestic white cat with a Russian Blue with the intent to create a solid white Russian Blue. By the late 1970s, the Russian White and Russian Black colors were accepted by cat fanciers in Australia as Russian cats with full registration and championship status with the two national bodies ACF and CCCA.

Copies of key documents can be viewed on the Riverlight Cattery website and standards are available on the Australian Cat Federation website.

Since then the whites and blacks have achieved full championship status in New Zealand and South Africa plus a few smaller registries in Europe, and provisional status in other countries as well.

Many countries still only recognise the blue coloured Russian, the Russian Blue, for full registration.

The Russian White, Black and Tabby are regularly shown in the countries where they have full registration. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)