Talk:Sânmartin, Bihor

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was move. Cúchullain t/ c 19:58, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Sînmartin, Bihor → Sânmartin, Bihor – First, a bit of background. In 1993, a spelling reform changed most instances of î to â in Romanian. Technically, this did not apply to the names of localities, which are set by a 1968 law and still use î throughout. This is the case for the commune involved here, as its official site attests.

Having said that, the recent move to Sînmartin makes little sense. For one, outside the legal context, few people actually use the î forms anymore. (Searching for Târgoviște versus Tîrgoviște, Târnăveni versus Tîrnăveni, etc., will give one an idea.) For another, if we were to apply a change to î, which isn't going to happen, it would have to be universal. We can't really have Sânmartin, Cluj, Sânmartin, Harghita, Sânpaul, Mureş, Sângeorgiu de Pădure, Sâncrăieni, etc., but Sînmartin, Bihor. So we'd better move back to Sânmartin before a new sterile debate is opened. Biruitorul Talk 21:44, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.


 * Support MOS "consistent with related articles" WP:Naming conventions (Romanian) needs to cover this. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:46, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment The Romanian article is at Sînmartin though, following a move about a month ago (whereas the ones in Cluj and Harghita are at Sânmartin). Thus the current titles here in the English Wikipedia simply reflect the current state of affairs in the Romanian Wikipedia.  Also, there is an official website at http://www.sanmartin.ro/ but apart from the URL the website itself consistently uses Sînmartin.  It seems likely that there is some controversy, as the proposer implies there has been some prior debate which he characterizes as "sterile".  We should perhaps hear from the other side of the debate.  There would be precedent for favoring a name that is in actual use by city officials and residents to an officially-mandated name: for instance, the city of Dollard-des-Ormeaux in Quebec has mostly ignored the ruling of the official Commission de toponymie du Québec which says that its name should be written "Dollard-Des Ormeaux", and we have the article title at the former and not the latter. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 16:54, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) What some random editor on ro.wiki does has little bearing here, and evidences nothing.
 * 2) I know of no prior debate, but a future debate on î vs. â would be rather sterile, given that the issue has been more or less settled since 1993.
 * 3) Given that all other Romanian localities with the letter are titled at â, and that the local press uses Sânmartin as well, there is no real justification to have only this commune at î. - Biruitorul Talk 19:07, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Even if there was an orthographic reform of the Romanian language, it does not necessariy follow that it applies to proper names and place names. Consider Portuguese, which retained names like Itamaraty or Bahia.  Also, Google Maps appears to label the place Sînmartin, although it labels some other places with â, for instance Sângeorz-Băi. I have to wonder if there is something more to it. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 19:52, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: I would point out that common usage carries more weight than official names. Hence we have an article at Snoop Dogg even though the guy's birth certificate has a different name on it. I'm not saying that we necessarily ignore official names - but they can be overruled if most sources prefer something different. What do sources say? bobrayner (talk) 12:01, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Some local press coverage here, here, here, here, here and here. National press coverage is more spotty for such a small place, but here are a few: this, this, this, this, this and this.
 * Unsurprisingly, all the above examples use Sânmartin, because â has been standard usage in Romanian since 1993, and there is no plausible reason for the press or for us to make an exception in this single case. - Biruitorul Talk 13:26, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * There does seem to be a faction that uses the Sînmartin spelling though, which you seem to be glossing over. It might even include the mayor. Numerically, within Romania as a whole, the â probably predominates and represents orthodoxy, and accordingly I am not actually expressing an oppose.  But that might not reflect the local reality in the place itself.  It might be helpful to hear from an î-faction representative.  The Romanian Wikipedia article was moved from Sânmartin to Sînmartin a month ago, but the talk page shows not a peep of protest or discussion about it, nor any reverts. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 06:09, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I gloss over nothing: people are free to use whatever spellings they please, and the town halls of Sânmartin, of Sângeorgiu de Mureş (site), of Sânandrei (site), of Sâncraiu de Mureş (site), of Cârligele (site), of Cârlibaba (site) and, perhaps most significantly, of the large city of Târgu Mureş (site) all use the î-variant on their sites. It does not follow from that fact alone that we too should go with the î form. For one, the 1993 changeover was uniform and without exceptions. For another, usage in reliable sources consistently favors â nowadays: I know of no major newspaper, for example, using î. Assuming every place should go by â (like we assume every place in Moldova uses î) seems far more logical than trying to glean usage between â and î on a case-by-case basis.
 * Consider too that the two are largely interchangeable: î may be technically incorrect, but no one particularly notices who uses â and who uses î. In my own informal writing, for example, â predominates but an î will slip in now and then. Other people use mainly î but toss in an â when they remember to. Which is used is not that important, only the trend has decisively favored â in recent years.
 * Like I've said, what happens on ro.wiki does not really concern us, as (despite claims to the contrary), Wikipedia reflects rather than creates reality. And, for what it's worth (very little), on the forked page for the commune that the too-busy folks over there have designed, there was a bit of revert action. - Biruitorul Talk 20:58, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I know of no such exception to the post-1993 â/sunt rule. One such exception existed before the 1993 reform, for the toponym România, the etnonym român (Romanian) and other words based on them, but none after.- Andrei (talk) 14:55, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The Romanian Wikipedia allows both spellings, per ro:Wikipedia:Versiuni_de_ortografie_română (and Google Translate), and discourages editing articles merely to switch from one to the other (similar to our WP:ENGVAR policy). The Romanian alphabet article states that proper names may be exceptions to the â rule; and the first paragraph of this move nomination more or less says the same thing.  So it is not so clear-cut that the present title is actually wrong; on the other hand the proposed title is apparently not wrong either, so in the end it is not a problem if it proceeds. — P.T. Aufrette (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * For the nth time, "what they do on ro.wiki" is not a real argument one way or another; neither is what our Wikipedia article or what my move request say. However, I will grant that "proper names", as in the names of individuals, can still use î: despite what we title them, the subjects actually prefer Cristian Pîrvulescu and Sorin Ovidiu Vîntu. But the same flexibility does not come into play for place names. Some people may still write Sînmartin or Tîrgu Mureş, but a clear majority switched to â long ago. - Biruitorul Talk 23:36, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move war
The article was moved to Sânmartin, Bihor as a result of the above move discussion that drew much input but little opposition. It has now been moved back to its previous location without comment. If the article is to be moved, another move request will be required.Cúchullain t/ c 12:23, 26 June 2012 (UTC)