Talk:S.W. Randall Toyes and Giftes

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oldest
The sourcing for oldest claims are a bit weak IMO. The "inyourstate" source doesn't look reliable and I don't see the source for oldest in the state, though it might be there in Google Books (anything at Internet Archive?). It is the crux of the article's notability should be shored up if possible. -- Green  C  17:32, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I deleted that claim. I may have confabulated it, although it might be true. sorry.  7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 17:57, 5 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This is still problematic. Onlyinyourstate.com is an advertising service. It uses the same model as the Yellow Pages where everyone gets a free listing and if they want extras (larger graphics etc) they pay extra. Note that WP:YELLOWPAGES concerns something different and is not relevant here (the article has plenty of reliable sourcing to demonstrate notability). But as a reliable source for the oldest claim, Onlyinyourstate.com is problematic and may be causing harm. We might need to tone down or remove the oldest claim without better sourcing. I said before "It is the crux of the article's notability" but that is no longer true. -- Green  C  15:12, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The "King" source confirms oldest, removed onlyinyourstate and replaced with it. -- Green  C  15:24, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree, neither Only In Your State nor Squirrel Hill History are independent. We use independent sources not just to verify that the information is factual but also to establish that it meets WP:DUE. Sykes appears to be independent but it's unclear whether they've fact-checked the claims in their listings or simply repeated what was said by the business. –dlthewave ☎ 15:59, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Why don't you go ask Sykes? WP:Verifiability; not WP:Truth  But then again, your talking to her would be WP:OR.  You are fly specking.  There has got to be something amongst all those pepper grains. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 17:09, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Squirrel Hill neighborhood
Where Fred Rogers of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood is from. -- Green  C  21:29, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Deletion discussion template error
Not linking to the deletion discussion. There was a name change. The deletion discussion link needs to appear in the template. 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 12:19, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Infobox question
What is | fate = isbn? 7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 15:05, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
 * "Fate" of the company when it goes defunct. Isbn might be shorthand for still in business? Parameter is only used when a company is defunct so it can be removed. --  Green  C  16:04, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Attribution
Text and references copied from Hamleys to S.W. Randall Toyes and Giftes, See former article's history for a list of contributors. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 13:32, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The passage "Founded in 1760 as "Noah's Ark", London's Hamleys is the oldest continuously operating and largest toy shop in the world" seems to be WP:COATRACK, it's unclear how this is relevant to the topic. –dlthewave ☎ 16:01, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It provides context for our readers/users. It is relegated to a footnote.  WP:Not paper  <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 16:18, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * FWIW the spelling of Toyes and Giftes was in currency in 18th century London. In the Historical Society video, he noted how people from England working on the Batman film came to the store because of the spelling. It's very tangential and shouldn't be in the article, without better sourcing, but I think the Olde English spelling echoes the oldest toy store in the world being in London, and this being the oldest store in Pittsburgh. But regardless, whenever you say "oldest" some context how old that can be would be relevant enough for a Note. -- Green  C  17:25, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's a very tangential connection to the London store and doesn't merit mention in this article. –dlthewave ☎ 19:11, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * You didn't read what I wrote correctly. Please read it more carefully. I said two things. One is very tangential and probably doesn't merit a direct discussion, but I also said "Regardless" (of that) the oldest store in the world "would be relevant enough for a Note". -- Green  C  19:19, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Historic society video
I restored the historical society source. To remove this would be to remove all local historical societies from Wikipedia - it is true both the historical society and the toy store are in the same neighborhood, but this doesn't make it a dependent source. It is true the video is of Cohen giving a history of the store, but there is also introduction material by the historical society - the video is produced and published by the society not Cohen. The audience of the video is a historic society, not to advertise but to record a history, this context is important in determining its value. I guess if there is still concern it might be moved into the external links section as basically there is nothing in the video that isn't already covered in other sources. -- Green  C  16:09, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The video is the owner of the store giving a history of the store, this is not independent. The introduction material is unrelated, it's just someone talking about the historical society for several minutes and giving an extremely brief (20 seconds or so) introduction of Cohen. It might be appropriate as an external link as you suggested. –dlthewave ☎ 17:09, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * It is a WP:PRIMARY the owner talking about the store and Primary sources are perfectly acceptable so long as they do not overwhelm the article and the cited fact is not too controversial or surprising. Stuff like "We opened a store on Third Ave in 1979" is type of basic factual content that can be cited to a primary source without trouble. We use primary sources throughout Wikipedia, so having a few here wouldn't be a problem. I think the part about his wife's involvement in the store founding could be relevant. --  Green  C  17:35, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

ASTRA membership
American Specialty Toy Retailing Association membership is currently sourced to EdPlay, which should be removed because it does not mention membership at all, and the ASTRA Membership Directory which is self-sourced and therefore insufficient to establish due weight for inclusion. Although the factuality of the claim is not in question, we should be using independent secondary sources to show that this is significant enough to include.


 * This is another WP:PRIMARY source. It is not a controversial or surprising fact, though if it needs to be in Wikipedia at all is another question. Typically when we talk about "independent" sourcing it is for purposes of notability, since primary sources are not a sign of notability - but they are OK fine for citing a fact, within the rules of PRIMARY.  --  Green  C  17:39, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This is controversial? Indeed, for this information, the primary source is more on point and trustworthy than third parties. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 17:45, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The question of whether this fact should be included in the article is what I was getting at.
 * Again, I'm not questioning the accuracy of the claim, but the lack of coverage beyond the directory is a strong sign that it's trivial. At the very least the EdPlay cite should be removed since it doesn't mention membership. –dlthewave ☎ 18:09, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
 * The issue doesn't seem very important to me, membership in a trade association is a given for most established companies. If there was some reason for stating it that would be different. -- Green  C  19:21, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

New potential sources
(copied from WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request )


 * His store shelves are packed with classics (first page)
 * His store shelves are packed with classics (second page)
 * New-Age Ads
 * Toy Store Decides to Leave Troubled Station Square
 * Pittsburgh's Toy Connection
 * The Gifts that Keep Going Around
 * Those were the easy ones to find; future searchers note that including the owner's name helps filter the advertisements out, however the annual 'yup we are selling toys for Christmas' articles still clog up the results.  Kees08  (Talk)   15:54, 10 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you, ! --  Green  C  20:24, 11 March 2020 (UTC)