Talk:SAS Umkhonto

Is Emily Hobhouse now 'controversial', or at least was she in 1994?
The section on the SAS Emily Hobhouse being renamed Umkhonto implied (without clearly and explicitly stating) that Emily Hobhouse is a controversial figure in today's post-apartheid South Africa, or at least was in 1994. Is this correct, and did she do anything to deserve this (perhaps through allegedly only caring about suffering whites, or something like that)? I note that in 2004, President Thabo Mbeki quoted a 1914 speech of hers that seems critical of Boer attitudes to Black South Africans, but did her actions in 1900-1902 differ from her words in 1914? Or was it just the submarine itself that was comtroversial due to its operational history, perhaps particularly its role in a 1972 raid on Dar Es Salaam? Tlhslobus (talk) 04:30, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

A user has deleted this and the next query as allegedly irrelevant to the improvement of an article which currently states:

The SAS Umkhonto was originally named SAS Emily Hobhouse after Emily Hobhouse, a Cornish humanitarian in South Africa during the Boer War who was later made an honorary citizen of South Africa. In 1994, with the end of Apartheid in South Africa, ships bearing names of noted figures of white South African rule were removed and renamed after geographical names and less controversial figures in South African history. "Umkhonto" is the Zulu word for spear.[2]

(Note: The only currently cited reference in this passage is to 2.^ Zulu-English Dictionary, http://isizulu.net/ which presumably tells us that Umkhonto means spear, but tells us nothing about why the ship was renamed)

Since the article claims (without citing any source, thus incidentally currently making the claim deletable under WP:NOR) that the renaming policy was to rename ships, among other things, '... after less controversial figures', it carries a fairly strong implication that Hobhouse is now a controversial figure, or at least was when the ship was renamed in 1994. As such, the question of whether she is or was a controversial figure is entirely relevant to improving the article. And so are questions about other possible reasons for the renaming (such questions can facilitate anybody wishing to use search tools to look for Reliable Sources to confirm or reject those possible reasons). Deleting such questions, if applied consistently, would involve deleting a very large proportion of most Talk pages wherever there is a hint of controversy, and would turn Wikipedia into even more of a de facto censored platform and mouthpiece for powerful vested interests than it already is (or at least is accused of being by its critics). Tlhslobus (talk) 19:26, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Please do not delete these two sections again without going through proper procedures first (the basic procedure is Bold - revert - discuss, as explained in WP:BRD). Tlhslobus (talk) 19:41, 11 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Oops, my mistake, sorry. When I brought this to the attention of User:Dodger67, he replied that he was not going to waste his time discussing it with an editor who has been active here for several years but still doesn't know the difference between hatting and deletion. Having read up on hatting, I'll be posting the following to his Talk page:


 * Oops, my mistake, sorry. It's the first time I've come across the term Hatting (I have been around for a few years, but I haven't been particularly active until recently). So thanks for the info. Please feel free to hat it again, or archive it, or whatever you deem fit. I've added in a word to this effect in the discussion there 'for the record' (basically just a copy of this current comment, plus a few extra lines). I may or may not eventually try to re-formulate my query in a manner that tries harder to conform to Talk guidelines. Again, my apologies. Tlhslobus (talk) 21:42, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

The amendments of 19.21 and 19:28, on 27 May 2013 by User‎ 190.19.75.223, assuming they are allowed to stand, would seem to have now largely cleared up this issue. Thanks. Tlhslobus (talk) 03:05, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Naming warshop after 'Peace activist'
Also, was there ever any controversy about the appropriateness of 'honouring' a supposed 'peace activist' by naming a warship after her? Tlhslobus (talk) 06:56, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The relevance of this question to improving the article is explained in the previous section. Tlhslobus (talk) 19:30, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

It may also be relevant to improving other related Wikipedia articles (I only got here because I was investigating problems in some of these other articles, in the hope of trying to improve them). Tlhslobus (talk) 21:02, 11 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Oops, my mistake, sorry. See end of previous section for further details. Tlhslobus (talk) 21:46, 12 March 2013 (UTC)