Talk:SIG Pro

Article name
I wonder... would this article be better named SIG Pro Series? Opinions? Thernlund (Talk 05:19, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the current title is fine. The article needs some serious work though... Koalorka (talk) 15:15, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

= Requested move ==

SIG Pro → SIG Sauer Pro Series — The SIG Sauer P220, SIG Sauer P226, SIG Sauer P230, SIG Sauer P238 and SIG Sauer P239 are all "SIG Sauer", not "SIG". Consistency is good. The pistol is being sold by SIG Sauer now as the SIG Sauer SP2022. Faceless Enemy (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2010 (UTC) Note: the word "series" has been made lower case as it is not a proper noun. billinghurst  sDrewth  13:43, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * moved, uncontroversial request

SIG Pro was the original trademarked name - USPTO Trademark 76087568 - D.E. Watters (talk) 22:57, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

=Additional Information= If someone wants to add this to the main article: The SPC 2022's dimensions are: Barrel Length: 91mm Sight Length: 142mm Total Length: 180mm Width: 35mm Height: 135mm Weight (with empty magazine): 790g Capacity: 15 + 1 rounds Years of Manufacture: 2004 - 2007 Trigger Pull: (Single Action) 2.0 kp (kilopond) (Double Action) 4.5 kp

=Origin and designers=

Can we really prove that it was designed in the US? The German patents first filed in 1997 would seem to point to the European parent company, then named SIG Arms International AG. The designers are Theobald Förster (Swiss), Rudolf Fuchs (German), Joachim Schmidt (German), Sebastian Rost (Swiss), and Marcel Rutz (Swiss.) The US patent applications followed a year later.

https://patents.google.com/patent/DE19711730C2 https://patents.google.com/patent/DE19732656C2 https://patents.google.com/patent/DE19755679A1

They certainly were not always completely manufactured in the US as that is part of the reason the German government has been pursuing legal actions against the German firm in recent years. The SP2022 sold to Colombia were first exported to the US, and then sold to the Colombians via a Foreign Military Sale (FMS) administered by the US Army (W52H09-09-D-0158.) D.E. Watters (talk) 23:29, 26 April 2018 (UTC)


 * According to media reports following the introduction of the SIG SP2022 to the French police, this weapon line is not a US development:
 * https://www.letemps.ch/societe/un-pistolet-suisse-equipe-forces-lordre-francaises
 * There are also pictures of the first SP2009 weapons made in Switzerland, where you can read the origin “frame made in Switzerland”:
 * https://www.swisswaffen.com/bilder/sig-pro-sp2009/a5t1pwoc3f6k.jpg
 * And there are pictures of the SP2022 from German production where you can read the origin “made in Germany”:
 * https://www.swisswaffen.com/bilder/sig-pro-sp2022/a0dmd03p2e70.jpg
 * This, and the aforementioned patents, raise doubts about the statement: “developed and manufactured by SIG Sauer in Exeter, New Hampshire.” Innominabilis (talk) 21:58, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Pictures not supported by a reliable secondary source making the claim are not acceptable sources for Wikipedia content, as they fail multiple inclusion policies. So no, the only person raising doubts about the statement is you, the single-purpose-account who is disruptively editing multiple SIG related articles to push commercial links and make unsupported claims not supported by a reliable secondary source without attempting to achieve consensus. ⇒   SWAT Jester   Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 22:04, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Quote: A Swiss invention and manufactured in Germany, the Sig Sauer pistol has conquered a new market. The French security services are currently equipping themselves with a new handgun: the SP 2022 automatic pistol. A first order for 38,000 weapons was placed in July 2003. Ultimately, 270,000 new pistols will be produced. Following a call for tenders which put several arms firms into competition, the German company Sauer was chosen to manufacture the pistols under Swiss license.
 * source: https://www.letemps.ch/societe/un-pistolet-suisse-equipe-forces-lordre-francaises by Pierre Chambonnet Published on February 13, 2004 at 01:13. Innominabilis (talk) 22:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. -- from WP:SYNTH which I've asked you repeatedly to read. Your given quote states "the Sig Saber pistol" is a Swiss invention and manufactured in Germany; it does not say that the SIG Pro specifically is. It makes claims to who will manufacture the SP2022, it does not make claims as to where the SIG Pro in general was designed and manufactured. This is exactly the kind of thing we disallow on Wikipedia because it constitutes original research -- you need to provide a reliable secondary source that *directly* makes the claim referenced, especially when a source already exists that contradicts your conclusion.  ⇒   SWAT Jester   Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 23:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Then why do you insist that the Wikipedia article says "developed and manufactured by SIG Sauer in Exeter, New Hampshire" without any reliable citation, even with sources elsewhere in the article showing the opposite? And despite the lack of consensus here in the talk area? Innominabilis (talk) 23:07, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * That's not what has happened, and I'll ask you to not misrepresent my position here. I am not "insisting" the article state anything -- I'm reverting your disruptive edits to the article. The burden for inclusion lies on the editor seeking to add the controversial material, not the administrator enforcing our core content policies. The lack of consensus is for *your* changes, not for my reversions to the prior state of the article -- and you had to be practically dragged kicking and screaming to the talk page to get you to even discuss this. Had you made even a trivial effort to approach this scenario neutrally, you'd have found plenty of reliable sources stating the SIG Pro is manufactured in Exeter -- for instance, this one from Police Magazine stating that the ENTIRE range of SIG pistols are manufactured there. "To address the growing U.S. police market, SIG established a facility in Exeter, N.H., called SIGARMS, which now manufactures the entire line of SIG pistols.".You, on the other hand, have been unable to provide even a single acceptable reliable source to support your claims, despite being repeatedly told that you need to do so, and directed repeatedly to our core content policies explaining what's acceptable. Whataboutisms aren't going to work here -- the burden is on YOU to follow the rules. Everyone else is already there. ⇒   SWAT Jester   Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 23:17, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I found another source that refutes the claim "developed and manufactured by SIG Sauer in Exeter, New Hampshire". The milestone of the manufacturer in Switzerland: 1986-1999 "Development of the SIG Pro pistol." Source: https://www.sigsauer.swiss/de/ueber-uns.php Innominabilis (talk) 23:36, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I just checked that source -- it makes no statement at all as to where the pistol was developed. It just says (translated) "Development of the SIG Pro pistol" -- that's literally it. It makes no claim as to where the pistol was developed; and the given dates (1986-1999, which is prior to most of the development and all of the manufacture of the SIG Pro; and prior to all of the development AND manufacture of the SP2022) would not have refuted the other sources anyway. At this point, you're wasting other editors time with the constant suggestions of improper sources; despite being asked repeatedly to make yourself familiar with our sourcing requirements, you've continually failed to do so and the constant WP:ICANTHEARYOU behavior is disruptive and unhelpful. Sometimes, even when editors act in good faith, their contributions may be time-wasting, especially if they can't understand what the problem is. Although editors should be encouraged to be bold and just do things if they think they're right, sometimes a lack of competence can get in the way. If the community spends more time cleaning up editors' mistakes and educating them about policies and guidelines than it considers necessary, sanctions may be imposed. ⇒   SWAT Jester   Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 00:28, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You are also ignoring the research of User: D.E. Watters, who, in addition to the Swiss weapons manufacturer's statement on its own website that it is responsible for the development, also cites reputable sources for the patent applications. Furthermore, reference is made to the German accusation regarding illegal exports from Germany via the USA to Colombia, which would be impossible if the weapon was developed and manufactured in the USA. Of course, I also substantiate this with a reputable source - the legally binding judgment of the German Court of Justice: https://www.bundesgerichtshof.de/SharedDocs/Press Releases/DE/2021/2021121.html All proven facts. If the publication and discussion of these facts conflict with the interests of Wikipedia or its administrators or third parties, I will of course accept the threatened sanctions of blocking. Innominabilis (talk) 09:02, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * D.E. Watters posted that "research" over six years ago, well before the most recent sources (not to mention it's a 1997 reference prior to the corporate restructuring of SIG Sauer) we have that say otherwise. And even if it had been posted today, it does not actually support the claims made even within that timeframe. Synthesis and original research weren't allowable back then and they're not now. Beyond that, a German "accusation" is not "proven facts"; the judgments of the German Court of Justice are not binding on Wikimedia and once again the patent discussion does not support the specific claims being made here today. You don't seem to understand -- you're not getting in trouble because of "facts conflicting with the interests of Wikipedia" -- you're getting in trouble because you're seemingly incapable of accepting and following our policies and are doing so in a manner that's disruptive and tendentious. It needs to stop.   ⇒   SWAT Jester   Shoot Blues, Tell VileRat! 15:04, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
 * My further research has shown that the Wikipedia article was significantly changed at 05:56, February 26, 2017 by Digitallymade - regarding the place of origin and developing country. As much as I could see without any sources and there is nothing in the talk section either. Could it be that this change did not comply with Wikipedia guidelines and led to the current lack of consensus? Innominabilis (talk) 16:35, 12 May 2024 (UTC)