Talk:SOAS University of London/Archive 1

Why is there nothing on the anti-Semitism allegations?
That's the most prominent way that SOAS has been featured in the news over the past year or so... AnonMoos 20:29, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

http://education.guardian.co.uk/racism/story/0,10795,1481647,00.html

Infobox
This article would benefit from a real infobox to replace the tabular mess currently in the article. Unfortunately Infobox University is somewhat US-centric and doesn't have all of the fields used in the table. I have mocked up a University Infobox below and tried to fit in as much of the data as possible. I would like to use this in the article, and perhaps integrate the data that doesn't fit into the article another way.
 * Bungopolis 13:47, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Great idea! --Ghormax 08:35, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm making the change Cpastern 22:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that looks better. I was just waiting to see if somebody had a way to integrate the extra information, but who cares? I don't. All that crap belongs in the article, not a summary box, which is meant to be a concise representation of the most important data. Bungopolis 23:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Why has all mention of the Islamophobic witch hunt against Muslim student Nasser Amin been removed?
To read more about what SOAS and external Zionists did to this Muslim student, read here:

http://www.milligazette.com/dailyupdate/2006/20060312_free_west.htm


 * Well presumably because it was utterly POV. There is no Islamophobic witch hunt - this is a wet dream created by those with a persecution complex. Amin has certainly been mistreated (although it is hard to muster too much fury over this given the repugnant views he expressed) and the actions of the School with regard to him were not in keeping with their own regulations but it had absolutely nothing to do with him being Muslim, Asian, Non-WASP or non-Martin for that matter. Anyway such a comparatively trivial matter has no place on the wiki page of a major institution and nobody without a vested, subjective interest in highlighting it would think otherwise. siarach 07:48, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

To read more about Nasser Amin's mistreatment and more details about what the School is like for Muslims read his interview with the UK's leading Muslim civil liberties group, MPACUK
Part One:

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/1318/103/

Part Two:

http://www.mpacuk.org/content/view/4/1335/103/


 * The opening paragraph/introduction to the above "evidence" is as hilarious an example of subjective ranting ive ever read:


 * Brother Nasser Amin is a student from the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) who has been used as a scape goat to please the Zionists and to attack those who stand for the Palestinian right of self defence against Israeli Occupation of their land.


 * And does my memory fail me or is this the same group who created the ludicrous "Islamophobe of the Year" poll which listed the likes of Julie Burchill ( for the crime of having the gall to speak out against the widespread Islamic mistreatment of women) with the likes of Islom Karimov and various other mass murderers/dictators etc? siarach 18:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

University ratings
(I'm posting this to all articles on UK universities as so far discussion hasn't really taken off on WikiProject Universities.)

There needs to be a broader convention about which university rankings to include in articles. Currently it seems most pages are listing primarily those that show the institution at its best (or worst in a few cases). See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities. Timrollpickering 00:13, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

SOAS UserBox
For Wikipedians from SOAS Surena 11:20, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Demographic
Can anyone tell me what the ethnic demographic make up of SOAS is? i.e. what % is white, black, asian? it doesn't have to be very accurate, just ruff figures--Fabio 07:23, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately institution specific data doesn't seem to be available from HESA. Timrollpickering 12:47, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I cant give proper percentages but if youre just looking for a general idea id say the majority of the student population is non-white. siarach 16:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)


 * ok can someone tell me then how much is white then?--Fabio 20:14, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
 * http://www.soas.ac.uk/departments/index.cfm?navid=1837 : This has the statistics. SOAS was 50.66% white last year. BovineBeast 16:11, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Imperial
Sir Richard Sykes, Rector of Imperial College, said "Do we want to be badged as London University along with some less prestigious institutions?"

Which institutions might he have been thinking of I wonder...

Donald MacLeod, 'Getting out of London', The Guardian (Tuesday December 13, 2005)


 * Old news. I seem to recall him specifically mentioning Queen Mary, University of London. siarach 15:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * He didn't mean SOAS?--AlexanderLondon 13:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It seems decidedly unlikely, given SOAS's reputation in its field. BovineBeast 16:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Ditto, SOAS is somewhat unique and stands apart from the other colleges. Size isn't everything. 87.194.83.65 12:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Anti-Semitism and Islamophobia
The accusations of anti-Semitism and Islamophobia at SOAS are probably ignored here because they are unfounded.

The reason SOAS is accused of anti-Semitism is because it does things like hosting a conference on "Israeli Apartheid". This is somewhat in keeping with the very high profile of Muslim students at SOAS and the equally high profile of the SOAS Palestine Society. Lest anybody think I am confusing Islam with Palestine, allow me to point out that the Study of Religions department does some world-leading work on Christianity in the Middle East, including courses and conferences on Christian communities in Palestine and Iraq. However, SOAS does incorporate the former Jews' College (now the Centre for Jewish Studies or something similar), the library has a large Judaica area, and courses on Judaism and Jewish studies are provided. There are quite a number of Jewish members of staff. As far as I can gather, the problem has been that a tiny minority of students has chosen to interpret criticism of Israel as anti-Semitism. See, for example, For vile hatred, pop along to SOAS, courtesy of Stephen Pollard. Note that one person who has contributed to the page calls Tom Paulin, 'Tom "kill the jews" Paulin', not, 'Tom "kill the Israelis" Paulin'.

The reason for the accusation of Islamophobia has somewhat escaped me, actually, but I feel I should point out firstly that, pace my reservations above, it is rather at odds with the idea that SOAS is anti-Semitic. I don't have hard statistics at my fingertips, but from anecdotal evidence, I should say that there must be more Muslim students at SOAS, as a proportion of the total student body, than at almost any other university in the UK, and possibly in the Western world. What is more, they enjoy a very high profile, with a regular stall in the main building providing information about Islam and Islamic culture, and two prayer rooms available (one male, one female). Compare that to the situation at the University of Oxford: Prayer Room Facilities: Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies - Evening Access. I am very happy with the number of Muslim students at SOAS, and their treatment by the School authorities seems to be quite satisfactory.--195.92.67.75 22:22, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well said. One of the reasons i find the accusations of Islamophobia so ludicrous is the SOAS has a huge proportion of Muslim students and is far better known for the extremely left wing persuasion (read pro-Palestine etc) of most of its student body and arguably also its faculty. SOAS being Islamophobic is about as credible an accusation as Eton being of a Communist, anti-Bourgeouise leaning. siarach 09:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * As for the anti-Semitic accusations, I don't know if it's important enough to discuss in the article, but it is at least pertinent to recognize that whether or not one chooses to conflate anti-Zionism or anti-Israeli attitudes with anti-Semitism or not, there is a very strong pro-Palestinian/anti-Israeli focus among the louder or more prevalent members of the student body. We have had at least two weeks this year declared as Palestinian Week or something similar - likely more than any other national or ethnic group; and the last Israeli Society meeting I attended had no more than six attendees. I do not imply that this is an institutional bias inherent to the faculty or the administration, but it certainly represents the political views of the more active, more vocal portion of the student body. I came here expecting to find kindred spirits in people interested in regional studies of East Asia, Southeast Asia, Africa, and other regions; instead I find the most politically charged and one-sided atmosphere I have ever been in. LordAmeth 19:06, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation
I've never heard "['səuæz]". Is it really common? Lfh 14:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Mostly among older people. The students usually pronounce it with an [s], in my experience, but I've heard people who were students here 20 years ago pronounce it with [z]. BovineBeast 16:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Some appalling institutional racism in SOAS
There is some frankly disgraceful and dismissive talk above mainly from the user who calls himself An Siarach in respect of discrimination in SOAS. Well, the article below should help us all to understand that racism towards ethnic minorities (and indeed, discrimination against women) is present in SOAS College at the highest levels, after all.

A lesson in racism

Dr Fareda Banda was shocked to discover that her white peers at the School of Oriental and African Studies earned up to £10,000 more. Robert Verkaik reports

Few academics can expect to reach the professional heights scaled by the women's rights expert Fareda Banda. Educated in racially segregated schools in Zimbabwe, Dr Banda, 37, became the first black African woman from her country to be awarded a doctorate in law from Oxford University in 1993.

Her talents were later recognised by the Law Commission, where she worked closely with a number of senior judges, including Dame Brenda Hale, now the country's first female Law Lord.

Then, in 1999, she was invited by the former Lord Chancellor, Lord Irvine of Lairg, to help to investigate the perceptions of lawyers and judges on the system for appointing QCs. The final report, written with Dr Kate Malleson, was well received and confirmed Dr Banda's status as a leading expert in women's human rights. Dr Banda, by now a senior lecturer at the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS), could expect a bright future.

But last year, she made an alarming discovery. After a casual enquiry about her pay, she uncovered evidence that, for the six years she had been employed by SOAS, she had been paid up to £10,000 less than her white colleagues. It was a shocking moment in Dr Banda's career and one she says she will never forget. How could one of the world's centres of excellence for black and Asian studies be operating a policy that racially discriminated against one of its leading academics?

When Dr Banda took her complaint to senior members of the college, she was told that pay was "not an exact science". However, it later emerged that a male law lecturer who had arrived at SOAS three years after Dr Banda was being paid thousands of pounds more than her.

The college agreed to offer her £17,000 to settle her claim for unfair treatment, but refused to accept that it had been guilty of race discrimination. Dr Banda rejected the offer and took SOAS to an employment tribunal. Last month, she told the tribunal panel: "I found the School's apparent preference for admitting sex but not race discrimination abhorrent. As a black woman, I consider that both race and sex discrimination are unacceptable, and cannot see that one is somehow preferable to, or less shameful than, the other. I do not have the option of waking up in the morning and deciding to be either a woman or black. I am both simultaneously, and therefore experience multiple and intersecting discrimination."

It was only when further evidence emerged about how another lecturer in her department, a white woman, was being paid £7,000 more than Dr Banda, that the college admitted that it might be guilty of race discrimination. This second lecturer had joined the college after Dr Banda and was less qualified. The college had also rejected her application for a previous position at the same time that Dr Banda had been successful with hers.

Dr Banda told the London tribunal how the revelation had made her feel worthless and bitter towards the college. "When one has low expectations of a person or a place, then any failings can be quickly forgotten. But I came to SOAS with high expectations. How does one start to communicate the sense of betrayal, anger, disappointment and a general feeling of being let down, that has come from my multiple experiences of discrimination at SOAS, an institution that I had held in such high regard?"

She also accused the college of exacerbating the "hurt" by the way it tried to ignore the discrimination: "The manner in which I was discriminated against was that, for many years, month by month, I was paid less than white comparators. This must have been within the knowledge of many of the college's administrative and financial staff, none of whom questioned the fact that an African woman was paid less than less- qualified white colleagues."

Dr Banda said that she had even come to question her own worth as a human being. "My confidence in my abilities has taken a knock. I arrived at SOAS full of enthusiasm for my research. Over the years, I have been filled with self-doubt. As the only black person in a department where everyone else seems to be able to get on, one starts to doubt one's ability and begins to think, 'Maybe they are right, maybe I am not good enough, maybe I cannot write that book after all. It must be me, they must be right. I am not good enough'. The School's treatment of me has left me wondering, 'Am I not human?'."

She also described to the tribunal how she felt "humiliated and foolish" for having trusted the senior management to treat her fairly. "The sense of isolation that I have often felt has been compounded by a feeling that I have been taken for granted." The experience led to depression, insomnia and weight-loss. Dr Banda's case is particularly disturbing because it shows that, even when black people believe that they are succeeding, they may still be discriminated against.

The college has now settled Dr Banda's claim for race discrimination and unfair pay by offering her a five-figure sum in compensation. Her solicitor, Robin Lewis, of Bindman & Partners, told the tribunal that Dr Banda would now be withdrawing her legal action. In a written statement, SOAS says that it is pleased to have reached an agreement with Dr Banda. But adds: "SOAS had admitted well before the start of the legal proceedings that, as a result of a mistake in the setting of the starting salary of one of Dr Banda's colleagues, it had in the past unwittingly breached its obligations to Dr Banda under the equal pay and race relations legislation. It had already brought Dr Banda's salary into line with that of her colleague and had offered to compensate Dr Banda in respect of the past difference in pay."

Dr Banda's experience has provoked concern among race-equality campaigners. Raj Joshi, vice-chairman of the Society of Black Lawyers, says that the case illustrates the reality of the glass ceiling that ethnic-minority people encounter in the workplace. "It is appalling that, in the 21st century, Asian and black people still have to prove that they are as good as, if not better, than their white counterparts. It seems that the glass ceiling has now turned into a titanium ceiling. Yet again, we have able, skilled and talented individuals who have to overcome more obstacles than ever before."

Oba Nsugbe, QC, a leading black barrister and former member of the Bar Council's race relations committee, says: "Without commenting on the facts of the case, it does serve as a reminder that it's important to act in a proactive way in order to keep procedures and structures in an institution, even one as respected as SOAS, under constant review, to ensure that unfairness to an individual does not result in discrimination by way of gender, race, sexual orientation or disability."

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/article60815.ece —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Anti-bad thingys (talk • contribs) 03:49, 10 May 2007 (UTC).

Anti-bad thingys 03:54, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, the 'discrimination' that An Siarach dismissed was a load of nonsense. However, this does seem somewhat more credible, and possibly worthy of being mentioned (especially since the school ended up settling).  But don't just complain that it's not there, mention it yourself. BovineBeast 09:50, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SOAS logo.jpg
Image:SOAS logo.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 09:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

What Defines a "Notable Academic"?/Student Union
As much as I appreciate Kazumi Tanaka's ability to miraculously get me through the second year of my Japanese B.A., I fear with few Google results, mostly from SOAS, and no Wikipedia entry of her own, she is not "Notable", so I've left that little bit of "vandalisation" from the bitter student, where he remover her name from the list, be (whilst removing his moan about her unwillingness to write a reference)....I was taught Japanese by tanaka too, though I cannot speak high of her teaching ability as amongst other things, we were shown videos of japanese TV in some of her classes, something I would not pay for if i had a say for my tuition fees........But what about the others? Given that all of the SOAS lecturers are notable in their own way in different fields, and most of them are also published, either we're going to have a very long list (eventually), or we need to set/find criteria that sets the ones listed here apart from the others.

I've also added a short section about the union in, with the link to the specific article. Does the student union article deserve it's own page, or should we merge into the main article somehow? (I realise we could probably pull out a few skeletons out of the closet, and possibly add a couple of pictures of the beautifully clean common room...) 82.36.106.80 23:44, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Notable academics
Where would one go to find a list of notable former academics? I'm unable to verify at least one had any connection. 24.4.253.249 05:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Robert Irwin
To Whom It May Concern:

Robert Irwin never said that SOAS is dependent on it's past achievements (infact he was quoting someone else, who was refering to government funding), please read the article you reference, before you misquote. If you read the article, it is impossible to say what you keep quoting!


 * I read Irwin's book. I am pretty sure that he said that the Near Eastern history department in particular was relying on its past reputation. I don't think you can seriously deny that SOAS's repution has been diminishing over recent decades. It claims to be an international centre of excellence, when in fact it isn't even a national centre of excellence. It's better than most British universities, which isn't saying much, and it's on a par with UCL, Imperial, etc, but it's in a whole other league from Oxford and Cambridge, the UK's only really world-class universities. SOAS has an amazing library of books in Asian and African languages that would be unavailable perhaps anywhere else in the UK or even outside of their country of publication, and it has a fair few outstanding academics, but it can hardly claim to be the world-renowned institution that it was in its first fifty-or-so years. I think that was the gist of what Irwin concluded - that SOAS had sidelined archaeology, papyrology, ancient and medieval history, classical literature, and similar topics in favour of more marketable courses, attracting more students and allowing its staff less time to devote to research.--195.92.67.74 12:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hold on - better than most British universities, which isn't saying much? That's a bizarre statement, considering that British universities are generally recognised the best outside the US (check out any of the international league tables). BovineBeast 16:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Oxford and Cambridge are the best universities outside the US, if not the best universities in the world. A survey some time ago showed that while Harvard ranks top, Oxford and Cambridge are considered by academics throughout the world to produce superior research. The order was Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard. However, the other universities in the UK leave a lot to be desired. For one thing, even the university of London doesn't have all the books its students need, whereas Oxford and Cambridge do, unless you need a MS or an obscure foreign book. That's why students from the University of London have to go to the British Library - because the basic texts they need for their studies are unavailable in the university libraries. Further to that, so much of what one learns at university is learnt outside of the classroom or the library - it's learnt in the common room or over lunch or dinner (perhaps one of those splendid formal halls or guest nights). That doesn't happen at other universities. Having been educated at Oxford and two other universities I feel well qualified to comment on how vastly superior Oxford (and by extension Cambridge) is to any other university in the UK.--Oxonian2006 (talk) 20:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

"Hippies and Islamic fundamentalists"
The following passage tells me more about the author's opinions than it does about SOAS: "Left politics, activism, various alternative lifestyles, and utter tolerance are said to flourish at SOAS, and multiculturalism is a given. The institution was for many years legendary for discreetly tolerating the liberal consumption of cannabis in its student union bar, until the government's institution of a nationwide smoking ban. For these reasons, some pejoratively label SOAS an institution full of hippies and Islamic fundamentalists."I flagged it as needing a citation, but I wonder whether any credible, neutral source can be found. Delete? -- ℜob C. alias ⒶⓁⒶⓇⓄⒷ 13:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned references in School of Oriental and African Studies
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of School of Oriental and African Studies's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Sunday_times 2009": From University of Warwick:  From University of Exeter:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 03:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Stop tweaking the intro
Somebody is tweaking the introductory paragraphs of this page to say nonsense full of typos about the 'next eleven' and such. Author writes "SOAS seeks to tackle the most urgent problems confronting two-thirds of mankind in Asia, Africa and the Middle East." This is nonsense. Half of all SOAS courses are on ancient history, languages, religion, etc. and have nothing to do with politics. Please make some sense. 67.242.104.174 (talk) 05:55, 9 December 2008 (UTC) R.E.D.
 * I took the liberty of moving this to the end of the discussion page, the normal practice in Wikipedia.
 * You're right about that sentence, and I think your edit (I think it's yours) is generous in keeping it in (as if other schools that study foreign affairs lack engagement with problems confronting human beings). I'm removing it. — ℜob C. alias ᴀʟᴀʀoʙ 22:27, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I fixed the introduction again. It, again, said silly things with poor grammar for several months now. I think somebody at another university must be playing a prank. 67.242.104.174 (talk) 03:59, 23 April 2009 (UTC) R.E.D.

Notable alumni
Can someone verify these, Aung San Suu Kyi page makes no reference to her attending SOAS, neither does Dom Joly and many others.--Fabio 00:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Was Enoch Powell really a SOAS student? No mention of it anywhere else! This has been put in as a joke by someone as it is well known he went to Trinity College, Cambridge - Michael H (IT Dept, SOAS) UPDATE: After a bit of research - its actually true - Enoch Powell studied Urdu at SOAS from '45 to '47 http://www.soas.ac.uk/devalumni/alumni/publiceye/alumni-in-the-public-eye.html - Michael H (IT Dept, SOAS) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.236.1 (talk) 15:56, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Aung San suu Kyi did attend SOAS for somekind of postgrad degree I think. Either way, I would hope she is an alumni as she is currently the Student Union's hon. president.87.194.83.65 12:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not convinced Aung San Suu Kyi actually graduated from SOAS.Perhaps she did some research at SOAS, but I do not think she graduated from SOAS. Many websites on her do not point to her having spent anytime in SOAS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minmean (talk • contribs) 15:59, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Rating
The SOAS Library needs fuller coverage: see http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-professor-j-d-pearson-1244502.html. Three lines is not adequate.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 01:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Marxism
Why is there no mention of the large influence Marxism has at SOAS, especially with its social sciences departments? A lot of its economists are Marxist, they publish a lot of the UK’s Marxist economic papers and there's a large Marxist community there.

If you ask someone who's studied at SOAS or knows SOAS will tell you that Marxism is a big part of the university. If you don't believe me, google "SOAS MARXIST" and you'll find pages of economic papers on Marxism written by SOAS professors. Oli2.00 (talk) 20:13, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

SOAS in Golden Triangle?
20-Nov-09: I wasn't aware SOAS had joined the Golden Triangle? I question this as I notice a link has been included in the SOAS summary info box on the top right of the top of the SOAS page; is anyone able to clarify?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.115.39 (talk) 00:09, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * SOAS is a constituent college of the University of London, which is part of the golden triangle. But I cant find a source that specifically mentions SOAS, where as other constituent colleges are. So it might be misleading to have it in the infobox. (BTW please sign and date your posts with 4 tildes like this ~ ) Grim23 ★ 01:20, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

I was looking at that the other day as well. Google search turns up dry and the actual Golden Triangle page doesn't list SOAS. This must be a mistake or something? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.170.72.29 (talk) 02:27, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Rugby jersey numbers?
At Rugby union numbering schemes it has long said that "...a peculiar tradition existed with the rugby team of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London which used to use a system of ancient Thai numbers...". However, I can find no other reference, and the current on-line contact for the Rugby Club doubts it. On the other hand, User:Stevingtonian recalls seeing this 1995 - 1997, so there's some confusion.

Can anyone else confirm it? - and provide an online reference? Snori (talk) 08:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Requested move
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:40, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

School of Oriental and African Studies → SOAS, University of London – SOAS is in the process of a Reputation and Visual Identity Implementation (Feb - May 2012) which will implications on how we present ourselves, including with our name. The first phase has been completed and this has resulted in the change of our name from 'School of Oriental and African Studies' to 'SOAS, University of London'. Ned.collier (talk) 09:54, 16 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. There is no indication that the legal name of the institution has been changed.  It still says "School of Oriental and African Studies" at the top of the SOAS home page, and even if the school is rebranded as "SOAS, University of London" the acronym SOAS still stands for "School of Oriental and African Studies".  The article already uses "SOAS, University of London" where appropriate (e.g. at the top of the infobox), and it is sufficient to make SOAS, University of London a redirect to this page. BabelStone (talk) 10:39, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Done that. Johnbod (talk) 12:36, 16 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose at least for now, per Babelstone. SOAS also redirects here. A link to some statement about the rebranding might help. Johnbod (talk) 12:36, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment. Ned Collier works in SOAS' Marketing Dept, so I think we can all assume that this RM is bona fide. The header on www.soas.ac.uk has in fact already changed to SOAS, University of London (The School of Oriental and African Studies). However, whether COMMONNAME will catch up to that and how long is another issue. Though in this case it's already referred to as SOAS, so this isn't a Kolkata style rename against the grain. Irrespective of RM what is probably needed is a WP:RS physically in the article regarding this change. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:46, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
 * oppose just because the nominator used the phrase "Reputation and Visual Identity Implementation. Renaming or rebranding wasnt good enough? Callmederek (talk) 17:23, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment The name has been changed to 'SOAS, University of London' and its important sources are updated to reflect this. I already changed the name within this article wherever possible, but without Ned's proposed move Wikipedia cannot be made fully accurate. Much of the www.soas.ac.uk website has already been update to reflect the new name, the rest will be updated in coming weeks. --SOAS Alumni (talk) 15:48, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Colours
I reviewed the history of changes for this page and found that user 19thPharaoh had made a revision about a year ago, inserting a colour scheme for SOAS in the Infobox. The user justified the change by saying that he wanted to make the presentation of the page conform to the format used for the Wiki pages on UCL, LSE and KCL. However this colour scheme he introduced was purely imaginary and I have removed it accordingly to prevent confusion.Ageofmachine (talk) 19:04, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

SOAS logo
Do they still use ? The don't use it on their website, http://www.soas.ac.uk/, or their brochure. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 21:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It's on the bottom right corner of the main page. BabelStone (talk) 23:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, my mistake, didn't notice it. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 00:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The logo that has been in use since 1989 (the green tree) is now changed and will no longer be used (http://www.soas.ac.uk/visualidentity/). The new official logo is here: http://i.imgur.com/s88nI.png Please someone replace this with the old one on the wikipedia page, as I don't know how to do it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.98.186.245 (talk) 15:05, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Unwieldy (and poorly punctuated) sentence
The opening sentence of this article reads:


 * SOAS, University of London (previously the School of Oriental and African Studies; commonly referred to by its acronym SOAS ( or  )), is a public research university located in London, United Kingdom specialising in humanities, languages, and social sciences relating to Asia, Africa and the Middle East, and a constituent college of the University of London.

That sentence is too long, and needs to be punctuated more accurately. I tried splitting it into two parts, thus:


 * SOAS, University of London (previously the School of Oriental and African Studies; commonly referred to by its acronym SOAS ( or  )), is a public research university located in London, United Kingdom. It specialises in humanities, languages, and social sciences relating to Asia, Africa and the Middle East, and is a constituent college of the University of London.

but this solution was rejected by Rangoon11, who feels that the "first sentence should describe topic". Well, yes, but SOAS is quite a large topic; I doubt if you could get it all into one sentence. It might perhaps be preferable to try for readable English and clarity. Anyway, having opened a phrase in apposition with the comma after "London", you'll need to close it with another after "United Kingdom"; you'll also want to restore "is" before "constituent college", because "constituent college" is currently in the list of areas to which SOAS studies relate, but is not, as far as I am aware, such an area. "Located" is superfluous, SOAS is in London, you might as well say so. Perhaps someone can come up with a better proposal than mine for sorting this out? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:22, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Breaking the sentence up into two, as you did, seems a great improvement to me. Readability is more important than summarizing the topic all in the first sentence. BabelStone (talk) 22:29, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * A sentence should be the length that it needs to be, rather than cut to fit some arbitrary preferred length. The opening sentence of the article needs to encapsulate the topic. In my view it therefore in this case needs to include each of the following things: name, location and nature of organisation. In my firm view the nature of the organisation in this case cannot be described properly without including that SOAS is: 1. a public research university; 2. specialised in humanities, languages and social sciences relating to Asia, Africa and the Middle East; and 3. a constituent college of the University of London. Rangoon11 (talk) 22:33, 14 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Then why not write a sentence that includes those facts, but which also includes clearly written English, correct punctuation, no superfluous words and no logical inconsistencies, and then submit it here for review? You might also like to provide a source for your assertion that "the opening sentence of the article needs to encapsulate the topic"; my reading of WP:BEGIN is slightly different: "the first sentence should tell the non[-]specialist reader what (or who) the subject is". I also draw your attention to this: "to invite reading more the lead should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view". With the best will in the world, the current opening of this article could hardly be described as clear or accessible. Do you see the arms in the infobox on a black background? I do, and have reported the error. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 22:56, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

Samantha Lewthwaite
An IP editor - with a concise history of contribs of questionable motivation - persists in adding terrorism suspect Samantha Lewthwaite as an alumna of SOAS. Lewthwaite dropped out early in her first year and did not graduate. I don't consider her to be an alumna in the generally accepted sense, and have twice reverted the addition. However, I do not wish to get into the murky world of being accused of edit warring myself so invite others to discuss this and reach consensus. Simply put, should Samantha Lewthwaite be included as an alumna of SOAS? Blackberry Sorbet  11:37, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that - if the facts are as you say, which I have no reason to doubt - it is absurd to include her and that she is not an alumna as it is generally understood. However, completion of a degree at SOAS is not a condition for being considered an alumnus: I myself was there for one year only of a three-year degree, but receive alumnus literature and benefits, including a spectacularly useful access to JSTOR. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 11:58, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll take this to WP:UNI. I seem to remember that whether to include non-graduating students as alumni has come up before. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:02, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It did come up before and the the consensus seems to be that everyone who attended can be considered alumni . Itsmejudith (talk) 12:11, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Your definition of alumni is conveniently different from that accepted by others at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alumnus It also reeks of political motivation typical of SOAS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.161.70.159 (talk) 15:42, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Someone once again deleted reference to the White Widow Samantha Lewthwaite, and it appears it was done by an unregistered user from a SOAS IP address. I have corrected it and sourced it. Since she is one of the most wanted people in the world according to INTERPOL and she is a SOAS dropout, her inclusion is necessary despite internal efforts to put any reference of her down the proverbial memory hole. Encycjwp (talk) 17:23, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

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Title of the article
The title of this article should be changed from the abbreviation 'SOAS, University of London' to School of Oriental and African Studies — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.20.200 (talk) 13:33, 11 December 2017 (UTC)


 * The article title follows the name that SOAS currently calls itself. If you go to the SOAS website you'll find that it goes to great lengths to avoid referring to itself as the "School of Oriental and African Studies". BabelStone (talk) 13:47, 11 December 2017 (UTC)


 * This appears due to the length of the name. If it goes to great length to avoid referring to itself as the School of Oriental and African Studies, please do explain why that name is plastered on the page of it's official journal (The Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies), not to mention right over the enterance to its main building in Bloomsbury. Now clearly if the school didn't want that name they wouldn't have it, wouldn't have their work published under it and would have plastered up the engraving on their main site. The only reason it calls itself SOAS, University of London is becasue that is far shorter and easier to say than the 'School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London'. If the title name 'SOAS, University of London is to be used, then the title of the article on the US Republican Party should be renamed 'GOP (USA)' since we could easily construe, from their website, that they 'avoid referring to themselves' as the Republican Party and more frequently use the abbreviation GOP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.20.200 (talk) 15:08, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Section on Media attention
I deleted this section, because it did not seem like it was sufficiently important or relevant. The Wikipedia page for Oxford University, Cambridge University, University College London, etc. does not have a section 'Media attention'. Also, the section seems to only give negative media attention, which suggests a POV. My deletion, which I assumed would be uncontroversial, has been reverted. So I raise the issue here. Tibetologist (talk) 20:24, 25 July 2018 (UTC)

Name
Shouldn't the name be SOAS University of London, not SOAS, University of London? Their own website and various other sources omit the comma? 80.1.253.226 (talk) 18:58, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 4 July 2019
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 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Steven   Crossin  16:48, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

SOAS, University of London → SOAS University of London – It seems the comma has been removed from the SOAS name for a while now. Multiple sources (including SOAS itself and the University of London) now refer to it as SOAS University of London. See here 1 2 etc. Morris Schaffer (talk) 15:37, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support it looks like the "University of London" is part of the name just like King's College London, even if it wasn't the new title would probably satisfy WP:NATURAL.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 08:37, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Support: I just checked, and most news sources do not have the comma.-- Farang Rak Tham   (Talk) 11:25, 7 July 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

SOAS Marxist Society
"The SOAS Marxist Society holds frequent events and encourages student voter registration."

Is this not the case for all groups at the university? Prior to lockdown, all groups held frequent events. I cannot see how this is relevant, especially as it is unsourced. MrEarlGray (talk) 08:05, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

University Structure
Info on page is way out of date. Hasn't has Faculties for several years, "The School is structured academically into five schools, ten departments and five centres." [I work here now so can't edit]

https://www.soas.ac.uk/academic/ https://www.theguardian.com/education/2020/may/29/soas-to-slash-budgets-and-staff-as-debt-crisis-worsens-in-pandemic https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/adam-habib-soas-will-be-voice-developing-world-west https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/campaigners-fear-devastating-impact-soas-library-cuts — Preceding unsigned comment added by Platdujour (talk • contribs) 11:51, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Publications
A user deleted my addition of journals published by SOAS and said that “the publisher's website was not a third party source”.

My question is, is it reasonable to assert that the website of a recognised publisher such as Taylor & Francis or Cambridge Uni Press cannot prove what SOAS has published?

Why can't I use primary sources to demonstrate what journals SOAS has published? （And I DO see some SOAS websites as references in this article. Does this user have a double standard?） Sima Sam (talk) 07:02, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
 * A publisher's website is a very good source for whether an academic journal is published. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:42, 4 October 2022 (UTC)