Talk:SPECTRE

Divide
I think that SPECTRE should be divided into first, the SPECTRE of the Ian Fleming books and then second, into the SPECTRE of the James Bond movies. Since SPECTRE was the creation of Ian Fleming and only existed in his books until the movies were made, the SPECTRE of the books is, in my opinion, the more definitive SPECTRE. According to my memory, SPECTRE's first appearance anywhere is in the book, "Thunderball". Therefore, any other claims about "From Russia with Love" being the first appearance are incorrect, since the books were written before the movies and the book, "From Russia with Love" makes no mention of SPECTRE at all, all evil in the book is done by SMERSH, which is NOT SPECTRE. Since the book came before the movie and was written by the inventor of SPECTRE and the movie was created later and was not written by the inventor of SPECTRE, I fail to see how it could be considered definitive about SPECTRE. I have not edited the page to remove the incorrect and false sentence "Led by Ernst Stavro Blofeld, the organization first formally appeared in the novel and movie From Russia With Love, and subsequently in a number of James Bond films" at this time but I see no reason why it should not be corrected. SPECTRE appears nowhere at all in the book "From Russia with Love", it is never mentioned anywhere in the book. Therefore, the statement that it first formally appeared in the novel, is incorrect.

In the history of the Ian Fleming books on James Bond, the first antagonist is the Soviet Union, represented by SMERSH. SMERSH was a real organization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smersh which Ian Fleming changed slightly and made into the antagonist of his earliest Bond books. Later books then introduced his second antagonist, SPECTRE. SPECTRE's first appearance was in Thunderball, not From Russia with Love. If you visit the SMERSH wikipedia page, you will find: "However, in most of the later film adaptations the independent criminal organization SPECTRE was substituted [for SMERSH] to avoid the connotation of fomenting hate for the Soviet Union and contributing to a destabilization of relations with that nation. SMERSH is mentioned in the early Bond film From Russia with Love, but doesn't play an active role in the plot. A masquerading reactivation of SMERSH appears in Timothy Dalton's first Bond film, The Living Daylights. It is also briefly mentioned in No One Lives Forever and figures in the 1967 Bond spoof Casino Royale."

Ian Fleming's first nine James Bond books:


 * 1) 	Casino Royale 	1953 - Antagonist: SMERSH
 * 2) 	Live and Let Die 	1954 - Antagonist: Mr. Big
 * 3) 	Moonraker 	1955  - Antagonist: Sir Hugo Drax, who was working for the USSR / SMERSH
 * 4) 	Diamonds Are Forever 	1956 - Antagonist: Seraffimo Spang
 * 5) 	From Russia with Love 	1957 - Antagonist: SMERSH
 * 6) 	Dr. No 	1958 - Antagonist: Dr. No, who was working for the USSR
 * 7) 	Goldfinger 	1959 - Antagonist: Goldfinger
 * 8) 	For Your Eyes Only 	1960 - Antagonist: Several
 * 9) 	Thunderball 	1961 - Antagonist: SPECTRE

Fanra 10:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Should we remove the S.P.E.C.T.R.E. henchmen for OHMSS and Diamonds Are Forever? Technically they were henchmen for Blofeld, not S.P.E.C.T.R.E.. This article even makes mention of that. Perhaps move them to Ernst Stavro Blofeld? K1Bond007 03:35, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

I was under the impression that SPECTRE was still active in OHMSS, since Bond tells Draco: "...an organization known as SPECTRE OPERATES worldwide." Copperchair 7 July 2005 06:32 (UTC)
 * He was unaware that SPECTRE was gone. He makes the same allegations in the novel and is always thinking that Blofeld had vanished (thus the search in OHMSS and technically The Spy Who Loved Me) to reform SPECTRE. SPECTRE is never again seen like it was in Thunderball, which is why most believe that Blofeld was working on his own. K1Bond007 July 7, 2005 06:56 (UTC)

The official site says SPECTRE still existed in this movie. Copperchair 05:11, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * No, it says he's at "pinnacle of the SPECTRE empire" (the head of). SPECTRE is dead though see above. K1Bond007 05:21, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

In the game Evil genius, there are 4 'good organisations', named H.A.M.M.E.R., P.A.T.R.I.O.T, A.N.V.I.L. and S.A.B.R.E.. Although these are 'good' organisations, i think that they deserve to be mentioned here.
 * That game actually should be listed at James Bond parodies, since it makes obvious referrences to Bond (and Austin Powers too). Better than this article anyway. K1Bond007 16:37, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

I think that SPECTRE existed from the time Bloefeld founded it until he died. Even though it may not have been as large in its final appearances, it still existed, even in minor forms. In the novel On Her Magesty's Secret Service, Bond refers to Bloefeld's organization as SPECTRE, even though it is not as large as it was in Thunderball. I also agree with the above statement about the movie, OHMSS, stating that SPECTRE still existed. Bond said that it operated world wide, which meant that he couldn't have been wrong about SPECTRE still existing. If it had collapsed, he would have known it. Since Bloefeld constantly revived SPECTRE until he died, it can be assumed that SPECTRE's existance continued until Bloefeld met his maker. Also, the DVD box to OHMSS specifically stated that SPECTRE was the villianious organination in the movie. Emperor001 02:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Article Title
Shouldn't this article be moved from "S.P.E.C.T.R.E." to "SPECTRE"? Most references to the organisation on this page do not use the full stops, and even the official site, MMPR (and on Blofeld 2 page), uses "SPECTRE". Additionally, I've never seen it before with the full stops, and it's sort of a long abbreviation (usually they appear without them). Further, it's "SPecial", so really, shouldn't it be "Sp.E.C.T.R.E" or something if it's to have the full stops? I could be wrong, but it seems there's overwhelming evidence to suggest "SPECTRE" over "S.P.E.C.T.R.E." Bond, James Bond 01:36, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The 'P' is debatable. I think it's only capitalised to make it stand out (in addition to being bolded). The article title should probably be SPECTRE. I believe that's how Fleming, for the most part, used it. K1Bond007 05:37, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

WTF?
In the first paragraph, this: "Its first appearance was in Ian Fleming's James Bond novel, Thunderball, and subsequently in a number of James Bond films including the very first Bond film, Dr. No, where it has been the spy's most persistent opponent."

WTF mate? First appearance in thunderball, subsequently in the *first* film. huh? Am I the only one confused by this?

-- Graham


 * Dr. No is a S.P.E.C.T.R.E. agent in the film.
 * -- VD for VANDitta


 * I think the point was that the use of the words "first appearance" and "subsequntly...the...first" are contradictory. It is a little confusing, but I think what is meant is that SPECTRE first appeared in the novel, which came before all the movies. Subsequently, SPECTRE appeared in the first movie.
 * 202.6.138.33 04:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Backwash?
H.A.R.M may jokingly refer to Human Aetiological Relations Machine, the name of a fictional intelligence agency featured in the B James Bond backwash film Agent From H.A.R.M.


 * What is a "backwash film"? Nothing good, I assume. Is this a standard term? Lowerarchy 18:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The Consortium by MR UNSEEN
Can the Consortium from the act of war games be considered a spectre clone —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 222.126.66.189 (talk) 14:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC).

SCORPIA
Will whoever keeps removing SCORPIA from the parodies and clones section please stop because the organisation SCORPIA is a main antagonist from the well-known Alex Rider novels and its constant removal is really becoming quite annoying.

Anon

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Any issues with McClory regarding post-Thunderball films?
Although it's well documented that Spy Who Loved Me was originally to have been a Blofeld/SPECTRE film until McClory squawked, I haven't been able to find any indication that he fought SPECTRE and Blofeld's use in OHMSS, You Only Live Twice and Diamonds Are Forever (or, for that matter, Dr. No and From Russia with Love, both of which were made after the Thunderball court case). Does anyone know if McClory tried to block SPECTRE appearing in any of these films as he successfully did with Spy Who Loved Me? 23skidoo (talk) 19:21, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Number
Did number in the movie really reflect rank? In FRWL, Kronsteen (No. 5) critized Klebb (No. 3). If number was rank, wouldn't Kronsteen have been afraid of insulting his superior? Also, in You Only Live Twice, Osato (no number) is shown giving orders to No. 11. Maybe only numbers 1 and 2 had any significance and all others meant nother. Besides, it seems kind of strange to have a cabinet of about 20 people and everyone, except the bottom guy, is above someone. It makes more sense to have several equals and then a top two. Emperor001 (talk) 02:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Origin of the Name "SPECTRE"
Most of SPECTRE's members come from the Soviet Union. Of course James Bond films would harp on the Cold War. The very first line of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto reads, "A spectre is haunting Europe - the spectre of Communism". I was wondering if this might have influence Ian Flemming and his name for SPECTRE. What do you think?
 * For some reason, Fleming liked the word spectre as he used it in Diamonds Are Forever (name of a town: Spectreville), From Russian with Love (Spektor decoding machine), and then as SPECTRE.  He also had an apparent love of gold:  Mr. Big was a gold smuggler, Goldfinger, and The Man with the Golden Gun.  Emperor001 (talk) 04:30, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And he wrote the Bond novels on a gold-plated typewriter Opera hat (talk) 11:38, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

It was never debatable - it was known from the beginning that SPECTRE came from Karl Marx's The Communist Manifesto. I mean, the books were all written during the cold war, and Fleming was a capitalist. This was all accepted and discussed on TV shows etc in the 1960's. And now we are wondering where it came from??? Good that at least some of us have memories going back to the mid-1960's.


 * Is the SPECTRE octopus logo canon? Because it strikes me that the octopus is the supposed symbol of the (imaginary) "World Jewish Conspiracy" (for example, here https://fitzinfo.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/zionist-controlled-climate-debate.jpg). If Fleming was an Old Tory, he was probably an anti-Semite, too, in that peculiarly old-fashioned English way: not a rabid Jew-hater, just someone who would blackball Jews from his club. Nuttyskin (talk) 20:43, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Osato
Since when is Mr. Osato Number 8? No one called him that in the movie. Emperor001 (talk) 02:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

World domination?
The article presently asserts that one of the goals of SPECTRE is "world domination". I can't think of a single example when this is the organisation's aim; as far as I can remember the idea is simply to make money.

In the novels, Thunderball introduces SPECTRE as effectively a freelance equivalent of the Ops department of a national espionage organisation, which hires its services out to different countries for payment - it carries out a contract assassination for the French secret service, for example - as well as being a straightforward criminal enterprise which makes money through blackmail and kidnapping. The main plot of Thunderball involves the extortion of money from NATO by threatening to detonate stolen nuclear warheads. The organisation is largely destroyed by the end of the novel, but in The Spy who Loved Me it is back attempting to carry out the murder of a Russian defector on behalf of the Soviet Union. In On Her Majesty's Secret Service Bond initially assumes SPECTRE to be entirely defunct, but Blofeld appears running a SPECTRE-like organisation devoted to destroying the British agriculture, again on behalf of the USSR. Blofeld appears again in You Only Live Twice, but in retirement - his maintenance of a "Garden of Death" where people come to commit suicide seems to be more a hobby than anything else.

Dr No is a SPECTRE agent in the film of Dr No, though not the novel. I haven't seen this for ages so can't remember his motivation, but if it's anything like the book then he is sabotaging American missile tests on behalf of the USSR. The film of From Russia with Love has SPECTRE using the British Secret Service to steal a Soviet decoder, which Blofeld then intends to sell back to Russia. The films of Thunderball and On Her Majesty's Secret Service are pretty much straight adaptations of the novels, except that in the latter Blofeld is planning to unleash biological warfare on the world, not just Britain. In You Only Live Twice, Blofeld intervenes in the space race to provoke a nuclear war between the USA and the USSR, being paid for it by an unnamed third power - implied to be Red China. In Diamonds Are Forever, SPECTRE is never mentioned, but Blofeld has hijacked a government contractor's satellite industry and has adapted its capability to destroy nuclear weapons installations (among other things): he then delivers his ultimatum to the world that nuclear supremacy will go to the highest bidder - again, money is the motive here.

In none of the above appearances is SPECTRE aiming for world domination - the most common motivation is simply extortion, though sometimes on a huge (and absurdly elaborate) scale. Opera hat (talk) 16:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually there are two allusions to world domination in the films. In From Russia with Love, Blofeld's analogy was that SPECTRE would pit the two great powers off against each other and then take over both once one defeated the other.  This analogy hit the extreme in You Only Live Twice when Blofeld said, "Once Russia and the United States have annihilated each other, we will see a new power."  Emperor001 (talk) 14:27, 26 May 2011 (UTC)


 * In "You Only Live Twice," he was clearly being hired by another foreign power (almost certainly China), so it's more likely that "a new power" refered to them. Can't speak for From Russia With Love.    — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.15.24.95 (talk) 02:50, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Composition of SPECTRE
I've asked for a citation on the statement that SPECTRE was made up of ex members of "the Gestapo, SMERSH, Marshal Tito's secret police, the highland Turks, the Mafia, and the Unione Corse." Fleming's original note mentions SMERSH, Gestapo, Mafia and Black Tong; the others looked unfamiliar, but I no longer have a copy of Thunderball to refer to. Can someone who has a copy please reference it? Thanks. --Stephen Burnett (talk) 14:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I think No. 4 is Dr. No —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.108.17.90 (talk) 07:57, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Where is it stated that Dr. NO is #4. I have not seen that in any media.  Emperor001 (talk) 21:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Hierarchy
Where are people getting the numbers for several characters in the hierarchy table? In all of the films I have seen, the only characters wth numbers are Blofeld (1), Largo (2), Kleb (3), Kronsteen (5), Bouvar (6), Brandt (11), and then the non-Eon Blush (12). If no official source exists for a characters number, book or film, then they must not be in the hierarchy table and may only be listed as members. Emperor001 (talk) 21:42, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Protection
Because someone keeps adding un-sourced, inaccurate material to the hierarchy table I am going to request protection for this article. Emperor001 (talk) 03:40, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Chuck
All the evil organizations in "Chuck" seem to be inspired by SPECTRE. The Ring, FULCRUM, Volkoff Industries. Bizzybody (talk) 11:34, 15 September 2012 (UTC)

Number of members
There is a matter that has confused me for some time now, how many members of SPECTRE are there exactly. I am disregarding the movies in this instance and am instead referring to the novel Thunderball. In the novel, Fleming states that the members of SPECTRE are numbered from 1 to 21. This would indicate that there are 21 members. He also states that the members consist of 3 Russians, 3 Turks, 3 Germans, 3 Frenchmen, 3 Italians, 3 Yugoslavs, 2 scientists and Blofeld. Again this would give us 21 members. once more Blofeld himself states that each member of SPECTRE receives 4% of all profits earned, with the exception of himself who receives 10% and another 10% goes towards the overhead costs of the organization. The mathematics that follows this is further evidence to suggest that there are indeed 21 members.

The controversy however arises when we consider No.1 (Emilio Largo) who at the time of the SPECTRE meeting in Paris is absent. Despite this Fleming clearly states "the 20 men who made up this organization strode, lounged or sidled each according to his character into the workman like boardroom.......... Their chairman was already in his seat." This would indicate that despite Largo being in the Bahamas at the time there are still 21 members present at the meeting and so there are 22 members of SPECTRE as a whole. Again Fleming comments "[Blofeld] gazed slowly around the faces of his 20 men" After the death of No.12 (Pierre Borraud) at the hands of Blofeld, it is stated that no replacement for him will be found till 'Plan Omega' is complete. And so SPECTRE is 1 man down during the events that follow. Later in the book it is stated that 19 'shareholders' of Emilio Largo's treasure hunt arrive in the Bahamas, leaving No.2 (Blofeld) behind in Paris. This Math suggests 22 members of SPECTRE originally existed and now after the death of No.12 only 21 exist. Again during the 'conspiracy in hell' No.10 (Strelik) states that 15 members including Largo will be in the swimming party whilst 5 members remain on the Disco Volante this means 20 members of SPECTRE are in the Bahamas, 1 is in Paris and 1 has been killed. a total of 22. My question is this, have i missed some information from the novel? or did Fleming simply make a mathematical error? where does Largo fit into the organization? is he a member of the Sicilian section? or an independent member like Blofeld? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SEA-VAC (talk • contribs) 14:10, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

PESTCRE
The Charles Stross novel "The Jennifer Morgue" reboots/spins the acronym as "Professional and Ethical Society of Technological Capital Reinvested by Experts" (PESTCRE), which in French is "Societe Professionelle et Ethique du Capital Technologique Reinvesti par les Experts"...or SPECTRE for short. See here for details Regards, Anameofmyveryown (talk) 01:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

How many arms on a Spectropus?
The film artwork very prominently uses 7, not 8 (and no visible eyes either). Is there any source for an octopus as a logo for SPECTRE that uses 8? Andy Dingley (talk) 19:21, 21 November 2015 (UTC)

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Original Continuity/Rebooted Continuity
Are these official proper terms or are they supposed to be in lowercase?--CreecregofLife (talk) 17:51, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

X-nauts
What about x-nauts from paper Mario the thousand years door I mean these group look like they belong in the parodies and clones section of Spectre BlaCkyKrockblitz (talk) 09:26, 2 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Cite a reliable secondary source talking about it and it can be included. DonQuixote (talk) 12:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)