Talk:SS Eurana/GA2

GA Review
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Reviewer: BurritoTunnelMaintenance (talk · contribs) 21:04, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Beginning GA2 review
Hello,. I'm afraid this is my first time doing a GA review, but I hope you'll bear with me. I'm sure we can get through this with a little diligence and mutual forbearance. I've read the prior review, and I can imagine that was a frustrating experience. I'll begin with the table version of the review template, below, and work on filling it in, so you have a clear idea of my thoughts, and where things stand. Please feel free to add any comments you like at any point in the process. I'll try to be clear with my questions. BurritoTunnelMaintenance (talk) 21:04, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

In places where I feel like very minor edits would address issues I'd otherwise have raised, principally with clarity of wording, I'm going to go ahead and make those changes. If you disagree with any of them, feel free to revert them, and I will, of course, take no offense, though I may then suggest that you address whatever issue I was trying to ameliorate. BurritoTunnelMaintenance (talk) 21:57, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

General notes

 * Background on Strachan founded 1886 by Frank Duncan Macpherson Strachan's father, Frank Garden Strachan, and brothers, in Savannah, Georgia.


 * You might want to make the unsourced discrepant weight here match, and provide citations there.
 * If you mean the GRT/NRT, I will check when the change occurred. It was pretty common for ships to have their tonnage readjusted due to change in calculations.Crook1 (talk) 15:05, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ Added changes.Crook1 (talk) 15:51, 8 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Worth making the connection that Eurana was presumably selected as the sponsor/namesake because her husband owned Bethlehem Steel, the corporate grandparent of Union Iron Works?
 * I doubt it was the reason, other than she was his wife. Given that her sister ship was named after San Francisco mayor's wife, it's more likely it was done in solidarity. Crook1 (talk) 15:05, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Status query
BurritoTunnelMaintenance, Crook1, where does this review stand? What is left to be done? I should probably point out that the GA criteria number 6 on images/media start out by saying Illustrated, if possible: the "if possible" is a key part of the criteria. It's only possible if there are either free images or valid non-free use rationales are provided for images that aren't free, and those rationales are highly restrictive. Some good articles don't have any images at all because nothing can legitimately be used. BurritoTunnelMaintenance, as this is your first GA review, let me recommend What the Good article criteria are not to your attention. I found it very helpful when I was doing my first GA reviews in terms of understanding what the criteria mean and what they don't. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:06, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
 * , as you say, this is my first GA review, so although I've tried to be flexible and spent quite a lot of time working on the article as well, I may be applying standards that are too high, or are not in accord with the consensus understanding of GA criteria. My concern with criteria 6 is not so much that there aren't multiple photos of the ship... I understand that many or all of what remain may still be under copyright. But the article wouldn't really be improved by the addition of more photos of the same ship. I fear that in this case, different angles will not reveal more of interest. But there seems to be no effort on anyone's part to illustrate the article with any of the myriad of other things would help the reader understand the story and bring it to life. The story of how the ship came by its name is interesting, and gives contemporaneous color, why not illustrate that? The single most dramatic incident in the ship's existence, its wartime sinking, goes unillustrated, even with a map? If there really were nothing to be done, sure, but this seems like over-constraint to the detriment of the article. Then in 2a we have the "Eurana E." problem... We can't just arbitrarily pick alternate names for actual historical people who were important in their time and widely covered in the press... We need to use their actual names, or the names they went by, not something sourced from a single typo, in the face of all evidence. And in 1b, we have a hell of an elegant variation problem, which needs time to fix. I put in a bunch of time working on the article, and I'm happy to put in more, but not if it's going to get reverted. Anyway, my sense of the article is that it's about 90% there, but the remaining problems need to be addressed, or we need to abandon this shot at GA. ...and the problems will still need to be fixed, regardless. BurritoTunnelMaintenance (talk) 09:30, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Frankly I'm not sure what this reviewer is trying to do. To me it appears he simply has an issue with my writing style. Saying that I can't use synonyms for the word 'ship' is simply ridiculous. Many articles don't have a sponsor name even mentioned anywhere, because these people are usually not notable, why have their pictures inserted? The name the sponsor was using is quite clear, since the ship was named after her and it was her middle name, not sure what's the issue there. Map of PQ-16 route? The convoy is linked and it has all the necessary info there. The goal not to add things that had already been added, but direct a reader to the page where such info can be obtained. Not to mention the coordinates of sinking are provided, clicking on them will open the map to show the location. Perhaps the reviewer thinks that this article has to provide full info about every possible thing that was associated with the ship? I don't think we need this kind of detail. I think the criteria for GA are quite clear. Does the article has issues with grammar, typos etc? if so, fix it or ask me to do that. If not, let's move on. If we gonna argue about style of writing this will go nowhere. IMHO.Crook1 (talk) 17:27, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to make the article better. Enough better that it's "good." Yes, there are some problems with your writing. Not a lot. The most egregious one is the WP:ELVAR, but I don't see you working to correct it. This isn't some "difference in style," and it's not something I invented. This is something which can be done correctly, or done incorrectly. As the very long article on the topic of people doing it incorrectly explains. If you want me to pass the article on criterion 1, fix the WP:ELVAR. As for 2a, you're persistently misnaming an actual historical person. She has an actual name, you can't just change it because you feel like it, or don't like her real name, or something. And if you're really dead-set on the article only having one illustration, sure, I guess, whatever, though it seems kinda rude to go all deletionist on folks who disagree with you. Wikipedia is about conveying information, not about owning some article to the exclusion of others. BurritoTunnelMaintenance (talk) 14:18, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

BurritoTunnelMaintenance, Crook1, I apologize for not returning after my initial status query. It seemed that I ought at least to do a minor copyedit and deal with some of the issues above, which I have just completed. About a few of those issues:
 * It does seem likely that the 1915 article in the San Francisco Examiner placed the "E." in Mrs. Schwab's name incorrectly. When sources disagree on something like a name, the best thing to do is to keep what the sources do agree on, and add a note to explain what the discrepancies are; that's what I've done here with "Mrs. Eurana Schwab". It seems clear that she didn't use "Emma" but was known as "Eurana", so that should be the case in the article. I only put the note in the article proper; if you think it's important, it can be referenced in the infobox as well.
 * There was a "use dmy dates" template at the bottom of the article (which should go near the top, so I moved it): this means "10 March" rather than "March 10" even if the year isn't present. Mind, it's odd that an article about an American vessel would use European-style dating, but the template's been in place for eight years, so it shouldn't be changed at this point, especially when the preponderance of use is clearly dmy.
 * I did a bit of copyediting here and there; perhaps more is still needed. I'm not accustomed to the nomenclature for ships, cargo, and so on.
 * I added a "clarification needed" ("clarity" template) to the third paragraph in the "Design and construction" subsection; all the modern cranes sounds overly broad (how many types were there?), and as the entire paragraph is unsourced, I was unable to check to see what was meant. This needs to be addressed.
 * MOS:LEADLENGTH is an issue that needs to be dealt with: the lead is currently a single paragraph and should be three or four based on the article's length. Some expansion is in order along with the paragraphing.
 * WP:ELVAR is an essay, not part of the Wikipedia Manual of Style, and definitely not a requirement for a GA. As such, if particular uses are problematic—if they get in the way of the clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience prose requirement—then examples of such instances should be proffered by the reviewer, and they (and others like them) should be addressed by the nominator. If they don't truly affect clarity, concision, and comprehension, then it's probably a Featured Article issue, not a Good Article one.

I hope this is helpful. BlueMoonset (talk) 20:34, 29 April 2022 (UTC)


 * Regrettably, Crook1 is refusing to allow any edits whatever to Eurana Schwab's name, regardless of what the Manual of Style says about proper naming style or many sources about her say about her name. This looks distressingly like WP:OWNERSHIP issues, but even without that aspect, I don't see how this article will ever achieve GA status so long as the clearly inaccurate form of her name remains in the article. Pinging reviewer BurritoTunnelMaintenance. There are also other issues that still need to be fixed, but if this one isn't rectified within the next seven days, I recommend failing the nomination. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:18, 5 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I agree. I've made one last attempt to correct Mrs. Schwab's name. If it gets reverted, I think we're done, on WP:OWN. Unrelatedly, I note that the article Farrell Lines claims that Alamar was owned by Farrell subsidiary American Export Lines, yet that article makes no mention of her, nor does this article mention either Farrell or American Export. In a cursory Google search, I find no evidence to support the association, so I'll remove it from the Farrell page unless someone knows better. BurritoTunnelMaintenance (talk) 11:25, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Passing comment: Why are the women mentioned in this article first and foremost associated to their spouses? For example: On 11 September 1915, Mrs. Eurana E. Schwab, wife of Charles M. Schwab, pressed a button in her house in Bethlehem and the electrically operated guillotine cut the cord releasing the vessel into the water. We're informed of the identity of her husband before the trivial statement that she pressed a button. It's not necessary and contributes nada to reader comprehension. Nowhere are males referred to as 'Mr.' nor are they referred foremost to as 'the husband of ...'. You can almost get away with 'Mrs. John McGregor' because 'John' is typically a masculine name, but elsewhere it's dated. Mr rnddude (talk) 23:11, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Second opinion requested; previous reviewer blocked
BurritoTunnelMaintenance has been blocked as a sockpuppet, so I have requested a second opinion in the hopes of finding someone to finish this GA review. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:39, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I'll step up.. next few days. Ealdgyth (talk) 01:31, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Second opinion
Before diving deeper - what makes convoy.web a reliable source? Ealdgyth (talk) 17:18, 7 June 2022 (UTC)

Anything? Ealdgyth (talk) 12:51, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Ealdgyth, the nominator of this article is Crook1, not GreatLakesShips. It's been about a month since their last edit; hopefully, they will return if they get this ping. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:11, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, they haven't edited since May 4, so I am afraid I'll need to fail this article. HOpefully someone else can use the suggestions above. Ealdgyth (talk) 13:20, 26 July 2022 (UTC)