Talk:SS Normandie/Archive 1

Details
11:35, 5.Aug.2005, DEF
 * the "Normandie" has at full speed trouble with heck vibrations from the screws. It was rebuilt in winter 1935/36 and fitted with new designed 4 bladed screws in 1938. now the vibrations reduced.
 * also from 1936 the French line plans to build a little greater sister ship to the Normandie, planed name was "Bretagne".

year scrapped?
The inset table says 1946; the article text says 1947. Which is it? --Super Aardvark 20:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
 * the ship was sold for scrap on October 3rd 1946, as seen on the French article, i think it took more than 3 months to completely sissaemble the remaining of the world's biggest ship, hence 46-47. JP Belmondo 01:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

gross register ton
This is a good article. One note should be added to clarify that a ship's tonnage is a volumetric quantity, and not a weight measurement. The equivalent of a ship's weight would be displacement, which is the weight of water the ship "displaces".

Wiki should have a seperate article, or have a link to the TON article. Gary Joseph 22:34, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The saboteur that doomed her
The Wiki article on Prohibition-era gangster Albert Anastasia says that it was him that ordered the ship burnt as a part of his scheme to help Lucky Luciano (then jailed), and that it was his brother Anthony "Tough Tony" Anastasio that carried out the sabotage. Is this true? If it is I think it should be included in this article.

Veljko Stevanovich 14. 4. 2006. 23:55 UTC+1
 * i think the 2005 TV documentary talked about a simple accident not sabotage (if i can remember), it is possible this theory was created to explain "rationally" a simple unbelievable event which led to the destruction of a mythic ship (it always happen with tragic trivial ends), don't you think?. JP Belmondo 01:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Several credible sources agree that Luciano ordered the sabotage (the online Encyclopaedia Britannica, for one - http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/350578/Lucky-Luciano); therefore, I will include it in the main article. Even if it's not true, it's a theory with enough of a following to at least warrant a mention. Ravenclaw (talk) 10:06, 1 September 2008 (UTC)


 * All theories of sabotage are unlikely. They were examined at the time, and even in the early days of US participation in World War II, all persons investigating her loss concluded that it was a series of blunders that did her in. As more than one person has said (and I misquote), "If stupidity is an adequate reason, there is no need to invoke conspiracy." The list of errors runs something like this: (1) Kapok life preservers were stowed in the main salon, together with other flammable materials. (2) A torch was used in the salon to cut away some lamps. (3) The fire watchers required to be stationed near such operations were absent. (3) The shield normally used to surround the work area had been damaged, so a makeshift was used. (4) Sparks from the cutting operation ignited some of the life vests. (5) The work crew tried to extinguish the flames by pulling the burning vests out of their bales, but only succeeded in spreading the fire. (6) The water supply for the fire mains had been disconnected for the conversion process, so the New York Harbor Fire Department (that's probably not the correct name, but it's good enough for right now) was called in. (7) The fire boats poured in approximately 6000 tons of water to extinguish the flames. (8) That relatively small amount of water was sufficient to give the ship a dangerous list, as it brought some open ports under water. (9) The ship's pumps were inoperative, again because of the conversion, so there was no way to rid the ship of the incoming water. The rest, as they say, is history. Add to this series of missteps a great deal of command confusion, divided responsibility, and just plain lack of understanding of the characteristics of the ship, and you have a pretty good argument against sabotage. All this was reviewed by the US Congress in 1942, and everything I have written here has been taken from the report of the Senate committee. (Senate Document 1422, 77th Congress, 2d session)


 * While we are at it, I feel constrained to point out that the Senate breathed a sigh of relief that is still almost audible. When they realized that a mere 6000 tons of water could cause her to capsize (well, at least trigger the event); that she was not compartmented; that the Navy did not really know what to do with her, as she had been found unsuitable for other uses and was being converted to a troop carrier only as a last resort; and now they proposed to send 15000 or so men across the Atlantic on such a vessel, the Senators, in the constrained language of their institution, concluded that it was "inadvisable to use the vessel for a transport." PKKloeppel (talk) 00:16, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * By the way, I support the idea of merging the Normandie and Lafayette articles. Her only voyage as Lafayette was across the harbor as a hulk on the way to the junkyard, and the fire that destroyed her was the only notable event while she carried that name. I have to point out, however, that I had to search the index under Lafayette in order to find the Senate report dealing with her loss.

video of Normandie (amateurs should check this) !
The TV documentary I was refering to in the article was actually broadcated in July 2006 in both the Swiss channel TSR 2 (July 16th) and the French public channel France 3 (around the same period).

"A bord du Normandie" definitely worth a look (here you can read the synopsis; check rare once-thought-lost color photographies and watch the doc on VOD).

There is also the free trailer page w/its player.

And this is the direct link for the free trailer (Windows Media Player compatible). mms://vipmms9.yacast.net/lba/extraits/FTD/LBA-FTD-03092-ext350.wmv (unfortunately this URL is based on the MMS protocol which is not supported as an external wikilink, so this video must be downloaded -don't ask- and uploaded on a public server)

Swiss channel's sumup "En mai 1935, le mythique paquebot Normandie quitte Le Havre pour effectuer son voyage inaugural vers New York. Monument de technologie, joyau artistique des années 30, le Normandie retrouve vie dans ce documentaire grâce à des images en couleurs de grande qualité miraculeusement retrouvées par les auteurs de ce documentaire. Un film délicieusement rétro, qui offre une bouffée d'air du grand large !"

JP Belmondo 00:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Turbo electric propulsion
Can a source be provided to confirm the maximum power output of the Normandie's at 200,000 SHP? All sources I have read state 160,000 SHP. This includes a souvenir issue of "The Shipbuilder and Marine Engine-Builder", June 1961, issued to commemorate the completion of the ss Canberra and reprinted in the book "SS Canberra" by Neil McCart (Patrick Stephens Ltd, 1983). To quote, with reference to the Canberra; "Her power per shaft- 42,500 S.H.P.- also slightly exceeds that of the French pre-war liner Normandie, whose turbo-electric machinery was rated at 160,000 S.H.P. on four screws". The following also needs clarification; The Normandie did not have "asychronous turbo engines"- she had asynchronous electric motors powered by alternators which were driven by steam turbines, ie a typical turbo electric plant. The turbine is the actual engine, the motor is the transmission. I doubt that the turbines are the largest ever built, either in physical dimensions or actual size- many power stations would have turbines much more powerful and larger, and there were liners and naval ships with more powerful turbine installations. It is possible the electric motors are physically the largest ever built (this needs to be confirmed), although those on the USS Lexington and USS Saratoga were more powerful. What exactly in the Normandie was 6.50 x 8.00 x 6.00 m, and what is a "single dimension"? --Dashers 10:26, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The four Alsthom (France) asynchronous turbo engines, generating 160,000 shp/118 MW (200,000 shp/147 MW at maximum power), are still the biggest engines ever built worldwide, with a 6.50 x 8.00 x 6.00 m single dimension.

For her propulsion, Normandie had 4 synchronous motors feeded by 4 turbo alternators (ie synchronous générators) while cruising at full speed during summer. In winter season, the speed was reduced and only 2 turbo alternators where used. The synchronous motors were "asynchronous motors synchronised". The starting procedure was : turbine at low speed 607 rpm, alternator's overexcitation, overvoltage (6kV) to obtain max torque from motor in asynchronous mode. At 60 rpm, motor was excited and ran in synchronous mode. Next increasing the turbine speed at 2430 rpm and the motors at 243 rpm, Voltage was reduced at 5.5kV. Normandie was designed for an "economy" power of 132 000shp and a nominal power of 160 000shp miscalled "surchage/overload". An extrapolation of the speed (knots)/ motor (rpm) based on the first trials on Glenan speed base (May 1935) led us to a power of 200 000shp at 243 rpm. In fact the first propellers have 3 blades and generate a lot of vibration. This problem was solved in april 1936 with the four blades propeller (diameter :5,03m pitch:5,80m). Unfortunatly, theses propellers limits the speed under 30 knots. In february 1937, the French line decide to upgrade the boilers and change the propellers. With a powerplant in "super surcharge" mode and the new four blades propellers (diameter :4,84m pitch:5,38m), Normandie win again the blue ribbon (03/23/1937). USS Lexington / Saratoga had 8 induction motors (2 motors by shaft) and were more powerfull. It's a different technology for a different aim. Normandie was the most powerfull liner, and today QM2 have (only) 157 000shp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.165.19.10 (talk) 14:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Brittany Ferries Normandie
Just thinking that there should maybe be a link to the article on the MV_Normandie in the article, but I'm loath to add it without consulting for fear of stepping on toes. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that she was named after the liner WelshMatt 14:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If you can find the reference that says it was named after this Normandie, by all means add it; otherwise it would be safer to assume it was named after Normandy. As for treading on people's toes, I wouldn't worry - virtually no one edits this article (despite how much it needs it). John.Conway 08:33, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, just taken a look at the Brittany Ferries website and they say she's named after the region. Fair enough - I can only assume the article I found a while ago had got a tad confused. WelshMatt 13:58, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Recent TV Documenrtary S. S. Normandy
i am trying to locate the source of a documentary on TV, perhaps in Sep-Oct 2006 re: the building and history of the S. S. Normandy - I want to send the VCR, if available, to an old friend of mine who worked on the Normandy for many years it the dining facilities.

Any help will be appreciated. E. H. McAvoy, ehmcavoy@comcast.net


 * I don't suppose this was A&E's Floating Palaces? That was a few years back. Enigma3542002 04:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

British Rival
removed" british rival" from this clause "...designed by Alsthom, which later worked on the British rival Queen Mary 2". QM2 was not a contemporary of Normandie. The phrase sounds dramatic, but is inaccurate.Gary Joseph 03:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Refloating the Normandie
The article mentions that refloating of the Normandie was the largest maritime salvage effort to date. It was conducted by a joint venture composed of the US Navy and the civilian salvage firm Merrit-Chapman & Scott (see Wikipedia link on them), under the overall command of then Captain (later Vice Admiral) Edward Bernard Manseau, USNA 1922.

A naval engineering training film was made (post WW2 perhaps?) documenting the ship, the fire, the capsizing & the refloating effort - all with the intention of teaching new officers and men how NOT to sink a ship when fighting shipboard fires. I saw the film when I was in Navy OCS in 1969, and was tickled that it mentioned by name Captain Manseau - my great uncle, now interred in Arlington Cemetery. JMBrouillet 22:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Not a Commercial Success?
She was the most popular ship of the 30's! How was she not a success? (Well possibly cause she was only at sea from '35 to '40.) Mg rotc2487 01:11, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * And sailed less than half-full most of the time. I don't know what "most popular ship of the 30's" is supposed to mean, but it certainly wasn't in terms of passengers. John.Conway 09:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * According to several sources I've seen, indeed the RMS Queen Mary was more popular overall. However, one source claims that more movie stars took the Normandie, yet others say the Queen has her fair share. Enigma3542002 03:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

First Class Dining Doors On Brooklyn Church
Previous submissions and even other texts incorrectly say that the First Class Dining Room Doors were installed on a church in Brooklyn. This is not the case since the doors were 20 feet tall. On researching this, the 10 medallions that were attached to the giant doors were removed and installed on four doors at the church in Brooklyn. Whatever happened to the two 20-foot door structures I have yet to figure out. They would need to find a 20 foot tall entry way to fit into. I made changes and added information on this. The 10 medallions were re-arranged and placed on pairs of doors at two entrances to the church. The descriptive words that appeared below each medallion were not attached to the medallions and thus do not appear on the church doors. My guess is the giant doors with descriptive text went to the scrap yards. Does anyone know otherwise? rickster77 10 July 2007
 * I'm the one who took the first pic and added the info. The source I was using was an architectural guidebook to Brooklyn.  The article in it from which I got the info was really about churches, not pleasure ships, so I'm not too surprised that little aside turned out to be only partially correct.


 * My guess for the doors is scrap yard as well, although if you haven't sussed out their ultimate destination already with your diligence, I'm guessing it's information that's been lost to history.


 * Also, new topics on a talk page typically go at the bottom of the list, not the top. Ford MF 21:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

...Thank you for explaining the format and moving it to proper order. My apologies. It's true that other sources, including at least one cruise ship book, say the Normandie's dining room doors were installed on the church. rickster77 10 July 2007

"An innovative line"
In the Influences section, what exactly does this line refer to:

"Marin-Marie gave an innovative line to Normandie, a silhouette which was since used in each and every following ocean liners including the Queen Mary 2"

I can't for the life of me think of any "innovative line" that would have been used in every following ocean liner - however I did not want to outright delete this since I've no idea what the original writer is talking about. -- Kjet 18:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Interior photos
Does anyone have any fair-use or better free use pics of the Normandie? Especially the interior... It would be great to showcase the dining room, as this was one of the most talked-about features. Enigma3542002 03:55, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Lafayette?
Is it correct to begin referring to the ship as the Lafayette? When would the name change have taken effect? Certainly, the "Normandie" lettering had been removed prior to the capsize, but the new name had not yet been applied. Surely the new name would take effect when the renovations were complete and the ship was recommissioned. Harry was a white dog with black spots 19:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Nice article!
Shouldn't it be a GA, or an FA or something? Gatoclass (talk) 13:02, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

More sources and a merge
The Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships has an extensive article on this ship as the USS Lafayette (AP-53) here. The plus side of this is that the text and photos are public domain and may help to fill this article even further. I would suggest that the USS Lafayette article be merged into this one as it is just a stub. --Brad (talk) 05:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. This has happened so many times before. Regardless of conversion, they were the same ship. Merge this article. Also, to nom, I suggest a slight better formatting of this proposed merger, it was quite hard to find on the page. --SteelersFanUK06  ReplyOnMine!   21:48, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, apparently the merge suggestion was ignored and the other article was filled out way past stub status. I removed the merge tag. --Brad (talk) 00:31, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Caption Edit
Removed "arrives" from "The Normandie arrives in New York harbor in the 1930's, greeted by a Douglas DC-3 airliner." in the photo showing the ship. The ship is in the Hudson River, just off Lower Manhattan with her bow pointed south. She could not be arriving, but leaving.Gary Joseph (talk) 04:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I did it.
I merged USS Lafeyette and the Normandie together to make one article. I wasn't logged on when I merged it, but I did. You can thank me now and delete the page (Lafeyette page) now. Ahoskinson 95 (talk) 23:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Cut and paste merge is not what we were looking for, so I reverted you. An admin needs to merge the two together to preserve the page history under the GFDL. I'll take care of it later.-MBK004 23:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


 * This merge has been on there for 5 months or so, feel free to put up the tag again if needed. SynergyStar (talk) 03:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)