Talk:Sacrebleu/Archive 1

Untitled
"sacrebleu" or "sacredieu" is always written in one word without accent, the 'e' in the middle being pronounced like a faint and short 'eu' (IPA [ə]).

It seems very unlikely that "sacrebleu" derives from the blue colour of Mary, a XIXth century fashion, or the wounds of Christ ("un bleu" may be a bruise, a haematoma, but in no case a wound). More likely, it comes from old blasphemous curses by God, used from the late Middle-Age (some are attested as early as the XIIth century) to the XIXth at the latest, with many variants : morbleu or mordieu, corbleu, palsambleu, jarnidieu, tudieu, respectively standing for mort [de] Dieu (God's death), corps [de] Dieu (God's body), par le sang [de] Dieu (by God's blood, the two latters possibly referring to the Eucharistic bread and wine), je renie Dieu (I deny God), tue Dieu (kill God)... I believe those curses should be compared to the english [God']sdeath, sblood, struth or zounds (God's wounds ?).

They were so offensive that "Dieu" was deformed into the neutral syllable "bleu" which sounds similarly, but doesn't mean anything in that case. A poster in this forum claims Bleu was the King's dog, but i am skeptical.

The verb "sacrer" has several meanings, including to crown, to anoint, and nowadays to name someone [champion, best actor, etc]. But here, it's probably the old meaning, rarely used in France but more common in French Canada, of swear, curse. Therefore, sacrebleu = je sacre par Dieu = I curse by God.

Nowadays those words are totally obsolete, unless you want to sound "mediaeval" or "classical". Nevertheless, they are still in the modern dictionaries.


 * Why not put these data into the actual article? You seem to have the sources (which you should include in your contribution), yes, please go ahead. Looks good. Dieter Simon 01:44, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oops, you have done, sorry, ignore previous. Well done. Dieter Simon 01:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The ending of the article seems to suggest that English-speakers imagine that French people still go around saying "Sacre Bleu!" all the time. I would suggest that anyone who thinks about it is aware that the phrase is about as "authentic" French as wearing a white and black striped shirt with a red bandana tied around the neck with a pointy little moustache and beret etc. In other words, it's a stereotype, it's a convention, belonging more to the stock Frenchman than to anyone who ever lived after 1960. English-speakers recognize this, and when we invoke the phrase, we do so in the spirit of old-timey theatricality, a bit like saying "Elementary, my dear Watson."Priceyeah 02:40, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent observation.. i recall the Amer cartoons of the 40's, 50's lending 'credibility' to that stereotype a la Pepe Le Pew, etc. Sacrebleu = Holy heavens!! perhaps? Or in Amer.. "Heavens to Murgatroyd!", another astonished expression given to us by a cartoon character. 2602:304:CDAF:A3D0:4099:7FCE:83AA:E90F (talk) 04:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Marian origins
I was the one who added the Marian origins some time ago. Now I have the source. Why do Catholics do that? by Kevin Orlin Johnson (1994, Ballantine Books, ISBN 0-345-39726-6). From the beginning of chapter 32 "The Lady's Cloak (The Color of the Sky in Christian Art)":


 * When you hear an astonished Frenchman say, "Sacre bleu!", what on Earth is he talking about? "Holy Blue?"


 * He's talking about the mantle that the Blessed Virgin wears. [older nonblue examples omitted] But after the middle ages, the color of her mantle came to be, most usually, celestial blue.  [two examples omitted but which refer to "blue of the sky"] It's a lovely idea, because it shows Mary to be the mother and protectress of us all. [...] the symbolism of this color is very very old.


 * [three paragraphs talking about the protective symbolism of mantles and Mary being "mother of everyone" omitted]


 * [...] pictures of Our Lady sheltering people with her mantle multiplied. That was only logical&mdash;as Mary is the mother of us all, her maternal protection is for everybody.  But visually representing the whole world under her mantle is a major compositional problem.  Well, it didn't take artists long to figure out how to do it: there's only one "mantle" that covers us all&mdash;and we know what color it is.  Next time you step outside under a cloudless summer sky, look at it as the cloak of our Blessed Mother. sheltering and protecting all six billion of us, from horizon to horizon [...]

Clearly one need not subscribe to the theology in order to recognize the argument that the term had Marian origins.

I would add that while perhaps the wordreferences forum may be a reasonable "See also" type of link, it seems to be a discussion forum, and in itself is not a reliable source. However, perhaps there are some reliable sources for other origins mentioned in the discussion there; I did not check closely enough to find any. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 03:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources?
I've been writing a paper on the origins and usage of the word sacrebleu, but I don't know what sources I can offer that would be useful here on wikipedia. My essay rests on some assumptions and connection of facts, so I don't think I have too much direct sources I can provide for this article other than what I already added.

So, what would be the best information/needed information here? I couldn't find any information to support the 'blue blood' theory, but only that it was a euphemism for sacré Dieu.

Though I found it really interesting that François Rabelais was the first person to actually use the word in his book Quart Livre. (Source: )

Keeping an eye on this, and hopefully we can work this information into this article. I'm just a bit nervous to do it myself. Anglais jardain (talk) 22:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Veins
Please note that deoxygenated blood in the veins is indeed blue in colour within the blood vessel. It only appears red when released from the vessel through trauma into environment where it comes into contact with oxygen, causing it to turn red.

Where are your sources for this "blue blood theory?

Contrary to popular belief, blood is NOT blue when deoxygenated. It is a slightly darker maroon colour, but not blue. Of course, due to the widespread nature of this misconception maybe this is relevant if that was the belief at the time.

O0factuallycorrect0o (talk) 15:59, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Yezidi reference is irrelevant
"Support for this view comes from the fact that the ancient Yezidi religion in Northern Iraq..." Come on, this is ridiculous. The referenced article's only mention of Mary is that some of their (sliver group) adherents lit candles to Mary. This is highly irrelevant, can we omit this reference please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.27.72.128 (talk) 17:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

"Blue blood"
Where it says:
 * "the royals had blue blood"

shouldn't it say:
 * "the royals were said to have blue blood"

? Panglossa | Talk 17:53, 17 August 2010 (UTC)