Talk:Sacred Grove (Latter Day Saints)

Identification of the personages
While discussing the First Vision, this article calls it a "an important theophany" "where two personages, identified as God the Father and Jesus Christ" appeared to Joseph Smith.

However, on the First Vision page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vision) it states that the personages were "implied to be Jesus and God the Father." (emphasis added) The explicit wording of several accounts are later given with the conclusion "Although Smith left their identity inexplicit, most Latter Day Saints infer that these personages were God the Father and Jesus." One alternative possibility for the identity of the personages, for instance, is Mormon and Moroni, characters in the Book of Mormon.

Perhaps the wording here should be changed to indicate that most Latter Day Saints believe it was a theophany, although no original sources identify the beings in the vision. (Karzab1 (talk) 21:18, 13 September 2013 (UTC))

Move discussion
This article needs to be moved back to its original title and then a discussion should be held about moving the page to a new title. There is already an article titled Sacred grove that deals with the general nature of them, so having Sacred Grove as a separate article also using it in the general sense is duplication. The move will need to be done by an admin since "Sacred Grove" now has a separate edit history. In any case, page moves like that should be discussed. Even if there are other "Sacred Grove" sites (as a proper noun like the LDS one), we still have the issue of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:08, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Move?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus. --BDD (talk) 23:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Sacred Grove (Latter Day Saint movement) → Sacred Grove – Page was moved without any discussion and replaced with a stub using "Sacred Grove" in a general sense, preventing a move without administrative assistance. An article already exists for the general use of the term called Sacred grove. Relisted. BDD (talk) 23:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC) JonRidinger (talk) 02:15, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * To many people a Sacred Grove is a sacred grove, and there are or were many sacred groves and sacred forests in the world. I have created a page Sacred grove (disambiguation). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:20, 14 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't have a problem with using a disambiguation term in the title, provided consensus agrees, the problem is that the move to the current title was made without any discussion. In terms of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, "Sacred Grove" as a proper noun seems to point pretty heavily to the LDS Sacred Grove at first glance (though there are clearly other "Sacred Grove"s elsewhere), but I also wonder if the term "Sacred Grove" is used across the Latter Day Saint movement like it is in the LDS Church. If the argument that "Sacred Grove" is too close to "sacred grove" for a title, I'm OK with that too as a reason to use a disambiguation term and if that disambiguation term should be "Latter Day Saint movement". --JonRidinger (talk) 05:30, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 *  Unenthusiastic support on procedural grounds  per WP:BRD. However, even a look through Google Books and adding other "The Sacred Grove" to Anthony's sacred grove (disambiguation) suggests the move, though WP:BOLD, wasn't a bad one. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:34, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Just a note that whether restored or not I fixed the template and 4 articles to the dabbed link. Very few articles link to this Sacred Grove other than by template. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:14, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Oppose on relisting. Procedural grounds now seem moot, evidently better where it is. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC)


 * But is the Sacred Grove (Latter Day Saint movement) the dominant meaning to someone who is not a Mormon? This is the first time that I had read or heard of this place, but I have read plenty about other sacred groves. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:49, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Obviously to someone who isn't Mormon, it likely won't be, but in honesty, I doubt it would have "meaning" at all unless they've studied other uses of the term like you have. My guess is your average Wikipedia reader probably isn't that familiar with either. In order to determine WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, we have to look at a variety of sources. The simple Google Search for "Sacred Grove" reveals quite a few references to the LDS Sacred Grove, though I recognize that a web search is hardly definitive. There are hits for other Sacred Groves too. My question is also on using "Latter Day Saint movement" as the disambiguation if that's the direction we go and if that's the best route. Not all Latter Day Saint movement groups use the same terminology. If "Sacred Grove" is primarily used only by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then perhaps "Sacred Grove (Mormonism)" would be a more appropriate title. That's another aspect that needs to be looked into. --JonRidinger (talk) 09:36, 14 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This is not the primary topic; the general concept of sacred groves is. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 13:16, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Other moves
Raised by above I had a look at was in the category and have to say there are several worse examples than Sacred Grove (which at least is a capital C). Per WP:BRD I WP:MOVEd six article titles which are all generic small case titles: I can't believe anyone will contest those 2, but if they do a simple Tech Request can move the dab out of the way.
 * single adult (now dab) ‎to Single adult (Latter Day Saints)
 * common consent (now dab) to Common consent (Mormonism)

Then these 4, no dab made as I suspect someone might contest:
 * light of Christ to Light of Christ (Latter Day Saints), can easily be reversed
 * plan of salvation to Plan of salvation (Latter Day Saints), can easily be reverted
 * law of adoption to Law of adoption (Latter Day Saints), can easily be reverted
 * disciplinary council to Disciplinary council (LDS church), likewise

Anyone who objects is very welcome to do so and immediately revert (if you need help to do so ping me). Hence listing here where they will be seen. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:10, 14 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I moved three of them (single adult, plan of salvation, law of adoption) to the same title you had but with "Latter-day Saints" instead of "Latter Day Saints" since they all seem to be topics exclusive to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints versus the overall Latter Day Saint movement. I need to look further into the Light of Christ article. As it currently stands, it's also much more of a specific Latter-day Saint article. --JonRidinger (talk) 09:47, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I've now turned the first two redirects into generic article stubs, corrected links for Light not yet for Plan. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:03, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Turned law of adoption into a dab. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:49, 15 October 2013 (UTC)


 * About disciplinary council, outside Mormonism, there are or were many councils and committees which enforce discipline among a group of people. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:41, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Users moving articles around should at least read WP:LDSMOS/WP:NCLDS to determine the appropriate disambiguator. "(Latter-day Saints)" is never used; "(LDS Church)" and "(Latter Day Saints)" are. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:46, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I have never seen the MOS on Latter Day Saint movement articles, so am glad to be aware of it. For the ones I used the "Latter-day Saint" disam, I will move them to "LDS Church". --JonRidinger (talk) 05:37, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, someone already did. Thanks! --JonRidinger (talk) 05:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

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