Talk:Sade (band)

Singer vs. Band
Seems to me Sade's musicians should not be separated from the singer herself. There isn't a band called Sade, with a singer named Sally Smith singing lead, the individual's name is Sade and she already has a Wikipedia entry. Her musicians and recording history should be merged into that entry. J. Van Meter 08:57, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The article's pretty much a stub as it is. Seems like a good idea to me. -- Mpk 18:38, 4 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. I don't get this whole idea that Sade is a band in the first place. That's like saying "Tim McGraw" is a band. Sade is a solo artist w/ backup musicians, just as Tim McGraw is. The article even states, "Sade is the only one featured on covers and the only consistent 'member of the band'" To me, that pretty much implies that the other musicians are backup and not part of a band called Sade.


 * I fourth the motion. The idea that the band Sade is somehow different or distinct from the singer Sade seems ludicrous to me. I'd never heard of such an idea until I looked her (yes "her", not "them") up on here. AaronzDad (talk) 04:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Sade is the band. Sade Adu is the lead singer of that band.  There are articles for both. Xihr (talk) 07:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * But on what basis do you make that claim Xihr? Is there anyone associated with Sade the singer or the musicians who perform with her making this distinction?? Drummer Paul Cook claims on his MySpace page "I am a British composer and musician responsible for the drums and song creation on one of the biggest albums of the 80's called 'Diamond Life' by the group I founded called Sade." However Ryan Waters' website states "As the youngest and only American member of Sade’s legendary band... " implying that Sade is a singer with a backup band. If only someone could call Sade herself and just ask. AaronzDad (talk) 22:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I found a couple of old vinyl recordings. On the album cover is shown: 'Sade are', followed by the names of the four band members. Sade has been indeed the name of the band.

--82.173.130.75 (talk) 13:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's hard to see what "claim" there is to back up. Pick up any Sade album, look at the list of members of the band.  Sade is the name of the band.  Sade Adu is the name of the lead singer of the band.  The band is named after her, but the band is not named "Sade Adu," or "Helen Folasade Adu."  The band is named "Sade."  Band, person; person, band. Xihr (talk) 18:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Response : Helen Folasade Adu and the rest of the band say to their fans they are a band because the lady alone has hardly ever appeared alone except in the movie Absolute Begginers or on the song she penned for the Darfur crisis, song named Mum.

Most of the instrumental lines/melodies are written by the three musicians in Sade, Stuart Mathewman, Paul Denman and Andrwe Hale, Sade Adu writes all her lyrics (except as quoted bellow) and often co writes the music as well. Sometimes but rarely other people are involved in the song writing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.104.159.63 (talk) 13:24, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Response : Sade is a band that bears the name of Sade Adu the singer who happens to write all her lyrics exept two "Why Can't We Live Together - 1984" and "Please Send Me Someone To Love - 1994" and cowrites music with other band members. That's it no less no more.

Sweetback
I've removed the link Sweetback because that word currently points at Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song, the seventies movie. It would seem more sensible to me to either disambig the word or have Sweetback point to the band, with the movie being Sweetback (movie) or Sweet Sweetback or whatever, but at the moment it isn't StuartDouglas 21:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That section is for "see also," so having the text there with no wiki link doesn't make any sense. It should either be there with a link to a (nonexistent) article that may be filled out later, or it shouldn't be there at all.  I added it back as Sweetback (band). Xihr 00:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That's cool - the only point I was making was that it originally pointed to the wrong page and so it was better to have nothing than the wrong thing. I've amended the link so that it follows usual Wiki display conventions though StuartDouglas 09:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

New album?
Someone's been adding entries in the (redundant, now removed) discography on the Sade Adu page for an upcoming Sade album in 2007, apparently titled X Lounge. Whoever's making the edits isn't adding any references, and I can't find anything about it on the official Sade news sites. Does anyone know anything about this? Is it anything more than a rumor at this point? Xihr 22:15, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Response : In spring 2009 a lot of rumours have emerged about a new recording, one major source came from Maxwell who has worked with Sade's Stuart Mathewman on three of his recordings. He gave some hints about a new Sade album but did not revealed a date of release. In the meantime a web site called sade2009.com has been speculating a release date of an album, suposuedly named "Love Supreme" for 24th of november 2009. Sony Music has asked the owner of the sade2009.com web site to deny his own information. Sony music, however, confirmed something was in preparation but no date of release was announced.

In July 2009 Stuart Mathewman appeared on sade.com, saying "we are hard at it, thanks for your patience, Stuart, Paul, Andrew and Sade" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.104.159.63 (talk) 13:34, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

Non-existent infobox image
Her image appears to have been deleted. I have removed the redlink reference in the infobox. Thanks. Refsworldlee(chew-fat) (eds) 00:17, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation
When Epic Records made a point of putting "Pronounced Shar-Day" on her albums for years why does this article claim it's "pronounced 'shah-day'"?? Yes, almost all DJ's and audiophiles pronounce it wrong but this is supposed to be a reliable source isn't it? AaronzDad (talk) 04:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Because, as has been covered over and over again in these talk pages, the shar-day pronunciation was intended for UK speakers, who are non-rhotic. Rhotic speakers, such as Americans or Canadians, will pronounce the R, which is incorrect according to Sade's own pronunciation (she sings her own name in "Maureen") and the IPA pronunciation which is provided.  The pronunciation shah-day is the only one which will result in the correct pronunciation from all international English speakers. Xihr (talk) 01:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I've attempted to correct this on both articles, but it has been re-edited to the incorrect pronunciation in each case. I will correct them again. SilverTab (talk) 19:45, 2 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It might make sense to mention this in the article. The U.S. release of Diamond Life listed the erroneous "shar-day" pronunciation on the spine of the CD/LP/cassette, causing this mispronunciation to become universal in the rhotic countries. Pro hib it O ni o ns  (T) 08:06, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Writing style
I understand that the article needed to be "internationalized", but is it really necessary to talk about how many "units" the band have sold worldwide in the introduction? Surely there are more interesting aspects to Sade's music? 84.198.246.199 (talk) 22:24, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

It's like that on wikipedia for all artists. I suppose it's notable when an artist or group has sold more than 50 million records worldwide.75.22.18.97 (talk) 22:33, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Video Release
Album: Diamond Life

1. Your Love is King 3.37 Directed by Jack Semmens

2. Smooth Operator 4:17 Directed by Julian Temple

3. Hang On To Your Love 3:58 Directed by Brian Ward

4. When Am I Going To Make a Living 3:34 Directed by: Unknown —Preceding unsigned comment added by Allentexas2010 (talk • contribs) 09:49, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

External links modified
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Is this jazz?
Some confusion here. There are entries for Sade Adu and for Sade the band. Allmusic has one entry for Sade and the genres are listed as follows: R&B, Adult Contemporary, Sophisti-Pop, Adult Contemporary, Quiet Storm. There are some people who think that she is a jazz singer or that the band is a jazz band or both. If I find other sources that conflict with these assertions, what happens then? Whose sources are right? –Vmavanti (talk) 02:08, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Sources which say Sade isn't jazz

 * 1) Allmusic lists these genres for Sade: Genre: R&B, Styles: Adult Contemporary, Sophisti-Pop, Adult Contemporary R&B, Quiet Storm. The bio calls the band "epitome of soulful, adult-oriented, sophisti-pop". The word "jazz" doesn't appear in the article. It does appear in the teaser at the top of page, where Sade the singer's vocals are called "jazz-tinged".
 * 2) Stephen Holden at The New York Times calls the band "English pop sensation, the pop-jazz quartet Sade." In Wikipedia there is no entry for pop-jazz or jazz-pop. The latter is a redirect that leads to jazz rock as a subdivision of jazz fusion, which I'm not sure is accurate either. Holden describes her "haunting pop-jazz alto". He writes that the band is "a cross between the rock-jazz of Steely Dan and the West Indian-flavored folk-pop of Joan Armatrading. Smoldering Brazilian rhythms blend with terse pop-soul melodies and jazzy harmonies to create a sultry, timeless nightclub ambiance. Sade says, "I have no technical training and am completely uneducated in music."
 * 3) Spin calls the songs "jazz-tinged". Sade says, "One bloke approached an entire interview as if I was trying to be a jazz musician. I've never said that. I've never even tried it." The writer says that "The jazz tradition is apparent in her work, but her spur is soul."
 * 4) Pitchfork write, "In the mid-'80s, a new kind of jazz-pop emerged in the UK, mostly assembled by former members of post-punk and new wave bands. They blended jazz, bossa nova, soul, and some of the swollen negative space of dub into a sleek and buoyant composite. The sound was streamlined and modern, inasmuch as anything that scans as 'modern' is just an effectively redesigned past. It was initially embodied in records by Working Week, the Style Council, Everything But the Girl, and—the only band included in this brief genre that, as of 2017, still records and plays together—Sade." The album Love Deluxe is called "quiet storm, R&B, and jazz-pop".
 * 5) The New Yorker writes, "It sounds implausible now, but there was a time when soft jazz was almost radical. This brief moment should be credited largely to the English. In the early eighties, groups like Everything but the Girl and the Style Council developed a hybrid kind of pop that drew from the more plangent side of soul and jazz—think of an area triangulated by the Delfonics, Dave Brubeck, and Chet Baker. Their style was a marked departure from the dominant sounds of the charts: Madonna's blocky drum machines and the noisy guitar bands of the third or fourth wave after punk. In this overheated context, playing mellifluous, unthreatening versions of soul and jazz could surprise, maybe even shock. It was several years before the release of David Lynch's Blue Velvet and years further from cabaret retro becoming a calcified style. One act in particular understood the potential of going quiet, and eventually made its lead singer the most successful female solo artist in British history, with more than fifty million albums sold. ...Adu joined a band called Pride, which played Latin soul and various iterations of a genre that would later be called acid jazz, though it was anything but acerbic. Sade's delightfully glittery début album, Diamond Life, was a bit like the perfect night of dress-up, everyone playing at jazz and secret-agent cool, an image that the videos did their best to establish over and over. ...My favorite of Sade's six albums, Lovers Rock (2000), was the first to largely ditch the jazz trappings and use more acoustic guitars."
 * 6) The Guardian says that Sade began as a funk band that dabbled in free jazz, though I'm not sure that term is being used correctly. Their first record producer said that he moved the band "away from the free jazz thing". The article mentions how Sade was popular on the R&B charts.

–Vmavanti (talk) 18:22, 28 December 2017 (UTC) –Vmavanti (talk) 23:09, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * From the article: "'Soldier of Love' debuted at number 5 on the Smooth Jazz airplay chart and became the first ever vocal to hit number 1 on the Smooth Jazz Top 20 Countdown." - that's from her label. --Neil N  talk to me 18:36, 28 December 2017 (UTC)
 * So her record label, which can't be an impartial source, says the band is jazz (of a sort), while I've given six sources that say she is not.

If I may bring a third opinion to this discussion... The disambiguation page that brought me here, Sade, refers to this band as "a British smooth jazz band headed by the singer Sade". It's surprising then that an editor is arguing they are not jazz. Let's look at the sources offered:


 * 1) Allmusic doesn't call them jazz.
 * 2) Stephen Holden at The New York Times calls them "pop-jazz". 'Pop-jazz' is a form of jazz, so this does call them jazz.
 * 3) Spin has references to jazz elements, but it's ambiguous either way.
 * 4) Pitchfork calls them "jazz-pop" and that they "blended jazz". So this is also calling them jazz.
 * 5) The New Yorker calls them "soft jazz".
 * 6) The Guardian has that they did work in "free jazz", but that they moved away from that. So this calls them jazz at some point in their career.

So I see 3 reliable source citations calling the band jazz, one that has them as jazz for part of their history, one that's ambiguous, and one against. This looks pretty clear: most RS call them jazz.

points out that the band charted on a Smooth Jazz chart. Vmavanti dismisses this as not impartial, as the information came from her record label, but we are allowed to use WP:PRIMARY sources when they are describing themselves. So, with caution, this further adds to a jazz claim. I found further relevant citations. Billboard has Sade under jazz for its charts. Smooth Radio calls them jazz.

Given this, I'll restore the WikiProject jazz tag. Bondegezou (talk) 15:12, 28 September 2019 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 17:25, 5 May 2020 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 13:42, 6 May 2020 (UTC) Vmavanti (talk) 18:33, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * As I have said on my home page because I got tired of repeating it, the word "jazz" is often misapplied. It gets used in ways that have nothing to do with "jazz music", a redundant term I sometimes see. Often this is done for marketing reasons. Which is to say...money. Those with an interest in defining the terms include anyone involved in making and selling that kind of music: musicians, producers, engineers, advertisers, promoters, agents, record labels, radio stations, boosters, reviewers, Mom and Dad and baby sis and Uncle Fred. All the cheerleaders. I'm OK with cheerleaders...at basketball games or football games. Billboard magazine reports on the music industry, but it's also a cheerleader for the music industry. It's not a newspaper, though it has advertised itself as one. Billboard will tell you that jazz makes up less than one percent of sales, less than classical. That means few listeners, few knowledgeable critics, and a whole lot of misinformation. For many reasons, we have this imprecise terminology that's applied to these relatively new hybrid forms. In most cases the reasons have to do with money, with packaging a product, which is good for the people with a special interest in the subject but not so good for the public interest or Wikipedia, which relies on impartial sources and impartial editors and writers to convey the facts. Pop jazz and jazz pop aren't jazz. The same goes for jazz rap, acid jazz, and jazz rock. The movie All That Jazz doesn't have much to with jazz. Nor does Queen's album Jazz, though it's a good album. One can also dismiss jazz shoes, jazzy ties, and jazzercise. The word originated as a baseball term. That's how American it is. There are people in the press who either won't or can't make these distinctions. But I can, because I'm not making money at this. Nothing is at stake for me, so I'm free to state the facts. I think Sade was an excellent band. But they're not a jazz band. If they were at one time, it would have early and briefly. On none of their albums are they playing jazz. If you went to a record store, you wouldn't see them next to Louis Armstrong or Miles Davis or Ella Fitzgerald. Of even Spyro Gyra. You know how to tell if something is really not jazz? If it makes money. Comical but true.
 * Charts don't determine genre. They determine sales. If a country singer occasionally gets a song on the rock charts, that doesn't mean they cease to be a country singer. Their essence hasn't changed. I could give many examples of "crossover". That's a marketing term. "Smooth jazz" is a marketing term to increase profit. Good for them, irrelevant for Wikipedia. It doesn't matter anyway, because the band Sade was never a smooth jazz band, let alone a real jazz band. I owned their albums on vinyl. I have never seen a jazz book that has included Sade as a jazz band. I suspect some kind of local pride is going on here.
 * My apologies for a fairly slow reply here. Your first post appears to argue that some people or sources get to determine what is jazz (like yourself) and others don't (like Billboard, musicians, producers, engineers, advertisers, promoters, agents, record labels, radio stations, boosters and reviewers). That's not how Wikipedia's epistemology works: see WP:RS and WP:EXPERT. What Wikipedia does is follow what reliable sources say. Bondegezou (talk) 12:07, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I know people are busy, and I know this is a strange time in the world. But...no...you have misunderstood my approach. I would rather you respond to the particulars of the many points I have made rather than try to summarize them. I know it takes more work, but there's no way around that. Talk really is the foundation of Wikipedia. Too many people don't want to talk.
 * This was EddieHugh's comment to me: "One source for some type of 'jazz' isn't enough for me, when considered in relation to how much coverage Sade has received."Vmavanti (talk) 14:42, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Adding to this conversation three years later but yes, Sade is not a jazz band. For what it's worth, Sade Adu doesn't think the band is jazz either (in this interview, the interviewer asks her "Would you consider your own music jazz?"; she replies: "No, not really, but we are influenced by it."). Having said that, I don't get the impression the Wikipedia article is making any serious claim that Sade is a jazz band either. I do think the description on the disambiguation page, "Sade (band), a 1982 British smooth jazz band headed by the singer Sade", should be changed to: "Sade (band), a 1982 British soul band headed by the singer Sade" or just "British band." --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 15:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The band's own opinion about their genre is certainly interesting for the reader, but it is not defining. Everything important about a topic is defined by WP:SECONDARY sources which are uninvolved observers. Binksternet (talk) 18:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I understand that, but I do think the genre soul more accurately and comprehensively distils their sound and is generally the principal epithet applied to their music, especially when you consider the last two albums, Lovers Rock and Soldier of Love, have almost entirely dispensed with jazz instrumentation. I’m not saying we should totally get rid of any mention of jazz on the article itself (the article’s approach to describing their music I think is entirely fine), but identifying them primarily as a smooth jazz band (a somewhat dubious category) on the disambig page is plain inaccurate. You will likely find more sources calling them a soul band than a jazz band. If anything, the article itself gives more weight to “soul” in describing their music than jazz, so modifying the disambig page would only reflect the complete article more accurately. If neither category fits—-and given the general difficulty of monomially describing their sound—-I think even just saying British band is a fair compromise. --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 15:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You suggest that one will likely find more sources calling them a soul band than a jazz band. Can you show us these sources? Bondegezou (talk) 08:00, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I'm just posting links here straight to save time. Again, to be clear, I am only saying the disambig page should identify them either as a British soul band or British band (and that the main article should centre soul as their "primary" genre, which I think it already does more or less). I am not saying they should be removed from WP: Jazz or not be categorised under "Smooth jazz ensembles."
 * 1) https://ew.com/article/2010/01/11/sade-solider-of-love-new-album/ ("British soul band Sade—yep, “Smooth Operator” Sade is a band—is back from a ten-year hiatus with the video for “Soldier of Love,” the first single from their upcoming album of the same name.")
 * 2) https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2010-02-09-1002080207-story.html ("Like its five predecessors dating to 1984, "Soldier of Love" is built on the languid supper club soul of her longtime collaborators, Stuart Matthewman, Paul Denman and Andrew Hale. Saxophones swoon, keyboards trickle or hover, bass lines lurk in the subterranean mist. That sound and Sade's career have informed both the Brit-soul revival of the '80s and the neo-soul movement in North America in the '90s.")
 * 3) https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1988/01/13/us-soul-reborn-in-britain/b0f77026-403b-4e38-9a25-e7a5327b8f07/
 * 4) https://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/arts/music/sade-at-the-nassau-coliseum-review.html ("Sade is, notionally, a soul band, though really it’s a genre unto itself.")
 * 5) https://www.oakridger.com/story/news/2010/02/18/the-farr-side-sade-s/48184834007/ ("I’m talking about Sade Adu, and the avant-soul band that bears her name Sade.")
 * 6) https://www.nme.com/big-reads/hayley-williams-cover-interview-2020-paramore-womens-rage-has-been-such-a-catalyst-for-beautiful-things-2662041 (" I heard [British soul band] Sade for the first time and that moment has never left me.")
 * 7) https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/culture/article/sade ("GQ Editor Dylan Jones looks back over how they marshalled their talents to create a truly original type of modern British soul, a sound that has continued to mutate over the 36 years since that first record. … They arrived in the early Eighties, when soft jazz, or “café soul”, was almost considered radical, … At first this anti-punk volte face was considered almost shocking, although it soon calcified to such an extent that we found ourselves embracing Simply Red and Lisa Stansfield (help!). But by then, Sade had moved on, keen to explore the sonic opportunities afforded them by success.")
 * 8) https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/oct/08/sades-20-best-songs-ranked ("From aching soul to minimalist funk, Sade don’t make many records but their quality has never waned."; no mention of jazz throughout the article)
 * 9) https://link.gale.com/apps/doc/A534633168/LitRC?u=prov98893&sid=bookmark-LitRC&xid=6f1226ef (New Statesmen article: "Sade mixed slick soul with social realism to create a unique sound. Now, after eight years, the queen of "quiet storm" is back")
 * I think "smooth jazz" goes some way describing Sade's first two-three albums, but the last two albums and a good chunk of Love Deluxe simply don't feature any jazz trappings (and in any case one saxophone player does not a jazz band make). I also think @Vmavanti makes a fair point above regarding the widespread misapplication of the term "jazz." I understand that a similar argument could probably be made regarding the term "soul," which is why I am entirely in favour of even just calling them British band. Their unique sound truly does defy categorisation. Sources that speak to that:
 * 1) https://www.britannica.com/biography/Sade ("sophisticated blend of soul, funk, jazz, and Afro-Cuban rhythms." and "Sade’s smooth sound, which defied easy categorization")
 * 2) https://www.vulture.com/2017/10/all-73-sade-songs-ranked-from-worst-to-best.html ("the band slowly deepening and refining a sound of its own, eventually drawing from jazz, funk, soul, pop, and rock in shifting but roughly equal measures.")
 * 3) https://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/23/arts/music/sade-at-the-nassau-coliseum-review.html ("Sade is, notionally, a soul band, though really it’s a genre unto itself.")
 * Meanwhile Pitchfork says they are soft-rock (https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/13920-soldier-of-love/) --WonderBoy1998 (talk) 15:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, then let's change the disambiguation description to "British band", but leave this article as is? Bondegezou (talk) 09:33, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sounds good! Thank you. WonderBoy1998 (talk) 14:04, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Years later, nothing has changed
Sade isn't jazz, and everyone knows it. The band knows it. I don't understand the refusal to face that fact. I would like to remove it from the Jazz Project.—Vmavanti (talk) 01:31, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation of "Sade"
Regarding the rhotacized United States: I'm a native speaker of American English, and always wondered why Sade ought to be pronounced /ʃɑrdeɪ/. How can I be expected to know that, from reading the name? Well, now I gather it's because people at Epic Records put that out. 2001:B011:3009:58DC:9897:8569:563:5956 (talk) 04:05, 26 December 2023 (UTC)