Talk:Saffron (Firefly)

I've just created this article on the rather amusing character Saffron from Firefly, and I feel a bit too enamored of my own writing. I think it may be a bit fancruftian at the moment. Can someone give it a more objective editing? Thanks. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:12, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Lesbian categorization
Why is the category "Fictional gays and lesbians" here? MosheZadka 20:09, 18 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Because Saffron tried to seduce Inara Serra, a woman. Although I guess that doesn't prove she's bisexual, since it was an act of desperation.-LtNOWIS 02:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * My point exactly -- the seduction was obviously a strategic act...if that is the only proof for the category, it is flimsy :( MosheZadka 15:37, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Kuralyov added that category (among others) as part of his/her massive categorization effort. I didn't really think about it at the time. I agree that it's slim evidence, but the scene in which Saffron tried to seduce Inara was unambiguous about her intentions. The real question, I suspect, is "If you have sex with someone of your own gender out of desperation (or for financial gain) rather than desire, does that make you homosexual?" A more pointed related question is, "Do Wikipedia categories involving homosexuality require clear interest or simple actions?" I'm also concerned about possible agendas here (not necessarily of the immediate participants), both for those who prefer not to think of someone as homosexual, and those who want to trumpet such activity. After all that contemplation, I'm content to let the category stand, but I doubt I'll revert its removal. I prefer to wait for more compelling information to take either action.


 * I will make one observation: Saffron doesn't ever appear to be "desparate". Her actions seem, to me at least, to imply that she always believes herself to be in control, even when she obviously isn't. I believe she treats any sexuality like most people would treat a box of tools — you use the one that's most likely to get the job done. Of course, that's only my opinion, and a fairly speculative one at that. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 18:21, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I said "strategic act", not desperation :) I noticed Inara Serra was also classified as "gay/bi", possibly because she (provably) has sex with women for financial gain. I guess to me "gay/bi" means being attracted to the relevant genders, not merely having sex with them. Categorization proves to be a POV-problem once again :( MosheZadka 08:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Sexuality (either gay or bi) implies ATTRACTION. If a guy gets raped by another guy, that doesn't make him gay. A lesbian could turn a trick without being bisexual. Sexual orientation refers to attraction, not a particular action, and Saffron's quick pullback when she's discovered shows she is not ACTUALLY attracted to Inara, she's just trying to play her. Staxringold 03:25, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your opinion. It is supported by Cambridge Dictionaries Online, but is contradicted in part by Merriam-Webster Online, which supports both the "desire" and "activity" aspects of homosexuality (given that "lesbian" is only indirectly defined as a female homosexual). Wiktionary's definition of "homosexual" (which is how it also defines "lesbian") is unfortunately even less direct, in that it uses the vague term "orientation", which in turn is even more vague with "inclination, tendency, or direction" (exactly the sort of Rorschach that everyone interprets how they prefer). And as far as Saffron's pullback, I suggest it had much more to do with the ship alarm that made both of the women drop the pretenses and get physical in a less pleasant manner.


 * That said, it remains unclear whether Saffron has any natural inclination to bisexuality, only an apparent ability to convincingly project interest if it suits her purposes (assuming Inara's response, "you're amazing", was not just a diplomatic riposte). We could speculate endlessly whether Saffron believed she could be sufficiently convincing to fool Inara in bed, whether she was just biding time until she could attack Inara, whether she was just doing one of her loopy personality switches that seems outrageously unrealistic and is perhaps designed to confuse, etc., etc. — but it's all just speculation. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:23, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, in that PARTICULAR situation I think it's clear Saffron's goal was to get a kiss, thereby knocking out Inara with her stunner lips, I think the question is whether she:
 * A. Chose that path because she wanted to kiss Inara
 * B. Chose that path because she thought it was the most efficient way to take Inara out Staxringold 05:22, 29 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Interpreting the motivations and forecasting the potential actions of a fictional character, without any evidence to back it up other than one's own reasoning, is the heart of fancruft, and is not encyclopedic. The more you argue about what Saffron was thinking, feeling, or planning, the more I feel compelled to make the point that this is sheer speculation. Unless Joss Whedon writes you a note that says, "Yes, Staxringold, that's exactly what was going to happen! You have me pegged!", you are not adding information to this discussion, simply your opinions. (And even a handwritten note from Whedon may not be considered canonical, as it is not part of the story as shown.) As I've said before, as far as I see, no one has demonstrated anything conclusive about Saffron's sexual preferences, but all this extended discussion is simply pointless. Why don't you just remove the category tag? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:36, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Hell, I'll do it. It's gone. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 06:38, 29 August 2005 (UTC)=
 * For posteriety's sake, please don't yell at me when you don't even bother to understand what I'm saying. I was arguing for the removal of the tag, as her motivations were clear (not my opinion), that's the whole point of a good actor/actress (you know what their doing and why). (Added by Staxringold

Spoiler
Isn't the stuff above the spoiler warning actually a pretty big spoiler for OMR?


 * Good point. However, I'm not sure what to do about it. Starting off this article describing her misleading initial appearance to the crew doesn't seem right for an encyclopedia article introduction. But placing a spoiler message at the very top of the article seems bizarre and unlikely to serve its purpose. (Have you ever tried not looking at something shoved in your face?) Any suggestions? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 21:46, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Merger
There is an active discussion about merging this article into Minor characters in Firefly at Talk:Minor characters in Firefly. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 08:07, 16 January 2006 (UTC)