Talk:Saffron (Ranma ½)

Article
The template is a mess.
 * More than just the template is messed up. It completely skips his pre-rebirth bits, and a lot of the article doesn't even talk about him, and is instead a synopsis of the story arc.Derekloffin 22:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I fixed up some of the biases, half truths and down right incorrect information, but someone is gonna have to come through this article with a fine toothed comb to make it accurate and presentable. -Ryo-wolf 23:03, 30 November 2006

The page seems to be going along fine, but I think the plot section needs a complete re-write. Xer 18:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Compilation of the arguments/points about Herb/Ryoga in the "power level" discussion
Here’s an attempt to make the loose previous discussion concise and easily overviewed for your perusal, given that the earlier discussion has been fragmented, and somewhat indecipherable in this regard. I also made a few quick composition images of each of the 8 Shishi Hokodan sequences, which I've temporarily uploaded, in case you’d find it useful to inspect them for reference. Seriously speaking, I've actually made an effort to be accomodating and make myself understood here. This is not remotely a thin air case. I'd appreciate if you could read through and think it all over.

The shown extent or nature of Herb’s direct wide impact blasts has been:
 * Creating a 12m^3 ditch in rock. (24.131)
 * Briefly stunning female Ranma, giving him the chance to kick her head into the ground. (24.147)
 * The effect is comparatively focused. (24.131)
 * The Ryu Sei Hisho ‘multi-blast bouncing’ technique was enough to knock her out for 2 minutes, but it might have taken her by surprise, and is near impossible to guard against, as it comes from several directions at once. (24.136)
 * Herb claimed that this attack was responsible for destabilising the mountain, (25.8) but by comparing its minor effects on the ground above (24.136-137), with the vastly dangerous cutting strikes (24.146), his prolonged barrage (24.163) seems to at least have had a mixture of these included, especially given the later cut in two boulder Ryoga threw in the path of one of these blasts. (24.179)

Ryoga’s Shishi Hokodan:
 * The regular, smaller but more focused, blast can knock out male Ranma in a few shots (20.12), take him out in 1 strike (20.28) (it made him made him do the ‘wobbly path in the wind with lame appendages sign’ and he commented that “Wow! The blast was even stronger than before”. Possibly (20.34) as well, but Ranma was heavily embarrassed here, and we didn’t explicitly see him unconscious rather than simply blasted far away, so it probably shouldn’t count. Alternately require several (20.47) depending on the strength and focus behind it. It was able to briefly stun Ranma even when weakened due to Ryoga turning into a small child. (33.50) And later when both were children (33.74), but this one wasn’t shown as nearly as forceful, given that child Ranma took the brunt with no additional effect, beyond giving Ryoga the advantage in the tussle. All of these have strictly shown a forceful impact effect.
 * The far more powerful final version, initially takes the form of a pillar of chi, directed upwards, which has been noted by Cologne. (20.67) (20.76) (20.78) (20.87) (20.96) (24.107)
 * It then falls down as a large ball of chi, which can shake the ground around it. (20.77)
 * Cologne expressed amazement at the power of the first strike during his battle with Ranma. (20.77)
 * The one witnessed by Akane created a 3m diameter half-circle, crater, without any sign of debris around it and steam pouring out from the heat. (20.68)
 * The first demonstration strike during his conflict with Ranma created an about 6 metres diameter half-circle crater. Also smoking from the head without any visible debris around it. (20.77)
 * Ranma ran towards the second strike resolute to stand firm despite being heavily intimidated, after just witnessing the power of the former. This was explicitly shown as his confidence-bolstered Moko Takabisha had lost most of its power. He was not remotely taken off-guard, quite the opposite. (20.78) When his upper body was hit by the boundary of the main globe, this knocked him out for a few minutes. The crater was yet again shown as smoking from the heat. (20.79) The ‘half-globe’ crater seems somewhat deeper and wider, around 7m in diameter. (20.79) (20.86)
 * The third strike only incapacitated Ranma for a minute or so. The crater is once again smoking, but without any discernible additional depth. As in the other cases, the impact was distributed along a 6m-7m-diameter ball of chi. (20.88)
 * The fourth had even less (say a 10 second) effect. (20.90)
 * During the fifth strike Ranma distracted/confused Ryoga by telling him that he saw Akane’s panties, letting the latter absorb the brunt of the attack right beside him, while he was in a state of surprise, incapacitating Ryoga for about 10 seconds. (20.92) The crater still doesn’t seem any deeper/wider/larger. (20.93)
 * The sixth strike picked up power again, and was stronger than the 3’rd-5’th, but the impact area wasn’t shown so it’s hard to compare with the initial two, but it sent small stones at the onlookers (20.98) and created ruptures in the ground beyond the crater (20.99). It seems likely that it at least matched the power of the second. The outer visual effect was about 100m (20.98), so the power seemed even more dispersed than the others. Ranma rode the chi-ball at his back (20.97) and distracted Ryoga to take him with a surprise falling punch to the head, directing the force from Ryoga’s attack along it (20.98), which was commented on by Cologne. (20.99) The combination knocked out Ryoga for several minutes, and Ranma initially couldn’t stand after being blasted several times previously, and presumably not being able to avoid all damage from the final strike.
 * During the battle with Lime, Ryoga was held in a stranglehold, enabling him to hit Lime with the full force of his output. (24.106) This created a roughly 6m-diameter 2m to 3m deep crater, (24.109) (24.115) and completely knocked out Lime, arguably the strongest and one of the two most durable (24.89) (along with Taro monster) characters in the series for at least 5 minutes. (24.115) The falling globe’s outer, non-brunt, area had a width of 300-400 meters, so the force of the impact still seems highly unfocused. (24.108) The battle with Lime was repeatedly shown to take place on solid rock, (24.89) (24.96) (24.97) (24.104) (24.105) (24.106) and the impact spot made in it, (24.106) (24.109) but later when Herb checked up the crater, and the unconscious Lime laying in it, the ground above suddenly sprouted grass. (24.115)

More on the above:
 * Ryoga’s first strike in the battle against Ranma was shown to create a roughly 6m diameter ‘half-globe’ in the earth, i.e. 2*3.14*((6m)^3)/3~452m^3. The area looks like the impact from a small meteor, including being smoking hot, but nearly completely clean, without adjacent debris. Given that wide chi-blasts are regularly treated as impact attack, it is most likely a matter of compressing the Earth, heating it up with kinetic energy, and possibly vaporising some of it.
 * Counter to vaporisation: Ranma’s clothes were unaffected, the heat of the attack is unmentioned by any character (in contrast to Asura where it is mention by every one), no character shows any singes or other even minor heat effects (again in Asura story line characters did show singing and other minor heat effects). Likewise non-martial artists can be within mere feet of the blast and be unaffected and unhurt inconsistent with both heat based or explosion based power.  As well, the entire attack dialog is focused on it's downward crushing force.  Only minor mention is made of either explosive or heat based properties (heat in the case of sound effect, explosive in the case of wind that is produced by the effect, and neither is shown to be dangerous).
 * Comment: While I agree that it seems more likely with a mostly compressing effect, given the general portrayal, the ‘clothing doesn’t instantly burn off’ bit is a general story convenience in high-power comics, including this one. Ranma’s clothes were mostly unaffected from Rouge and Saffron as well.
 * Herb’s ‘ditch-burrowing’ attack showed the same pattern of ‘mysterious disappearing bedrock’ as in most cases with Ryoga’s Shishi Hokodan, but was also treated strictly as an impact source when striking Ranma.
 * Counter on the second strike having more of an impact than the rest: Ranma was taken unprepared. He had not yet been hit by this attack, and was attempting to nullify it when hit clearly showing he wasn't expecting to get hit. Meanwhile later blasts in which he is prepare he retains consciousness through.
 * Comment: Ranma was explicitly (in several respects) shown to take the impact from the second strike fully prepared and aware of what he was facing. Having extensively experienced the regular versions, being shown the force of the visibly more powerful first strike, stating that he was heavily intimidated but still determined to face his rival head-on and running towards it, though given that his Moko Takabisha was clearly weakened when trying to slow it down/guarding against it, he was still not underestimating it. He has himself commented that the regular version is differently powerful from time to time. The final blast picked up power, but beyond this both our available gauges (impact on Ranma and the ground) showed a declining effect. I don’t see why it’s so hard to accept that several blasts quickly in a row would gradually diminish the effect, until given a major push of motivation again. All reliable indicators point in this direction. Herb made a comment about overusing his blasts as well, though he’s obviously more efficient in not getting major energy-spills. (25.8)
 * Another counter: It’s circular logic to use the same persona as a gauge of impact strength. You cannot use Ranma as a measure of it's power then turn around when it no longer knocks him out under a different situation and say it is weaker because he is conscious.  There is no dialog or evidence to support a drop in power between blasts.
 * Comment: Comparing the extent of someone’s blows by hitting the same impact-meter (in this case Ranma) at different times, and when it takes the impact in the same/similar condition, is generally taken as the most reliable source of reference. This type of reference-frame was also deemed the only reliable one when used to see how much effect financing has on the success of presidential candidates. It's a good measure tool, especially given the statements about varying strength. Crater size is another useful gauge of the total power.
 * The large impact area vastly diminishes the intensity of the force behind the attack. More so, given the unfocused energy spill over up to 2*3.14*((150m)^3))/3~7.1*10^6m^3
 * Instantly compressing 450m^3 of stone-filled dense earth through brute force should probably count as far more powerful than ‘simply’ burrowing through 12m^3 of bedrock. Whether or not the crater against Lime was solid stone or not is debatable, given that more instances portrayed it as such, but grass was later shown above, so the solution would be that the uppermost parts outside the crater was earth, while the spot they were standing on, and the area below, was stone.
 * Counter: Burrowing through the bedrock wasn't the most impressive thing Herb did. The mountain split from his force of attacks.  This is a chasm about 4m wide and 10+m long (it goes off page in both directions).  That forces the movement of 1000s of tons of stone and dirt.  Later, Ranma explicitly (said in his dialog) reusing Herb's released energy causes the whole mountain to shatter. This is a feat no other character, not even Saffron, Rouge, Happosai, or Ryoga has matched, the characters claimed to be more powerful.  Granted this is cumulative energy and not a single blast, but it is clearly meant by Takahashi as a show of the level of power involved and since this is explicitly Herb's power being used to accomplish this it is his power causing this effect.
 * Lime barely noticed Ryoga kneeing his head into a mountain, and was only annoyed by the latter’s full force kick to his head. Showing his durability as vastly ahead of Ranma’s, and likely rivalling Taro-monster’s, which fits with that Lime’s blows had a much greater effect on Ryoga than Taro’s. Yet he was completely conquered when placed in the epicentre of Ryoga’s blast. Given that Herb's direct impact blasts 'only' managed to twice briefly stun female Ranma, nothing implied that he could remotely managed the same feat without the cutting swipes.
 * Counter: However, once again, even Lime was unprepared not even knowing about this attack until he was hit by it, and again this is a fairly useless measure as Herb never attacks Lime directly in anything other than a comedy scene in which he is easily able to send him flying out of frame even as a female.
 * Cologne expressed amazement at the power of Ryoga's first strike.
 * Counter: This is irrelevant, and no baring on a comparison since she never even seen Herb at full power at that point.
 * Herb sensed and was woken up from the immense chi-detonation. When witnessing the 300-400 meters wide spectacle, he/she had an explicit sign of awe in his/her face, which I think we’ve agreed that it would take an enormous stretch to deny.
 * Counter: There is no evidence that he considers this more powerful than himself. It could be simple surprise or shock.  Awe in itself does not mean automatically that you consider yourself to be out powered.
 * Comment: That’s stretching the interpretation very far for several reasons: The entire scene was set up as a ‘wow’ moment, with the latter overwhelmed, rather than simply curious/impressed, as is the nature of awe. Herb is very arrogant, but had no reason to see Ranma as inferior to that degree, and had no automatic mental connection between the two. He/she was simply woken up by sensing and then witnessing an overwhelmingly powerful discharge, in manner of an independent ‘natural phenomena’/exploding volcano. It was first later, when going to investigate, that he/she was impressed when finding and inspecting Lime in the middle of the crater, and gave the tied-up Mint a glance as well.
 * Another counter: Herb shows no character reaction to supposedly being out powered. No questioning of his men.  No hesitation.  No anything.  In fact, when he goes to the crater, he doesn't even mention it, only talking of both Mint and Lime's defeat as one.  If it was so over powering (and as asserted meant to be shown to be considered overpowering) he should have shown some sign, but there is nothing.
 * Comment: Beyond that Herb was completely focused on reaching the ladle, and stated worry in this regard immediately afterwards, for the same reason Lime didn’t. He/she is a trained fearless, and confident warrior, and just because someone manages to greatly outdo you in a single respect, this doesn’t mean you can’t defeat him or her through superiority in others. If Lime gave Herb an explanation off-screen he/she would have known that Ryoga, while very strong, durable, and capable of generating massive amounts of chi, could not match Herb’s speed, skill, and accuracy, and would also be aware that the attack was highly unfocused. Later he/she didn’t even see Ryoga, just Ranma, whom he/she had defeated previously, along with a pig and a duck, and had his confidence fully reasserted when the curse was unlocked and she returned to male form.
 * We’ve also never seen Ryoga direct the initial chi-pillar forwards, as his regular version, which would logically be considerably more forceful/focused than simply awaiting that the resulting globe falls down and creates a widespread impact.
 * Counter: Irrelevant, we can't assume it would become suddenly more spectacular. This is a debate about the canon, not what ifs.

Given all of the above, I think I have plenty of bases for reaching my conclusion. Refuting it as being "unreasonable, biased and very loosely based" seems overly dismissive and unreasonable in itself, though given the somewhat indecipherable earlier fragmented discussion I suppose it's understandable. That said, I'm obviously not averse to inserting a few 'seems' and 'apparently' where you find it appropriate. What would you suggest? Dave 14:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Given that you misrepresented or didn't understand a good amount of my argument I don't know. I've decided it's best to remove any arbitrary scales at all.  If you want to show how powerful someone is, show it in the particular characters page, and don't try and jump to extreme conclusions. Let the readers decide. Derekloffin 18:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, make another attempt to explain it to me then. As is, I sincerely don't understand why you've accused me of such a biased and unreasonable interpretation. I immediately changed my mind about the whole 'brunt force' thing, as well as severely modified several of my perspectives as shown above. I also agree that it's a bad idea to compare either Ryoga or Herb with Saffron, given the whole "disintegration rather than breaking/compressing" aspect, but in-between on the other hand there seems to be plenty of quite explicit pointers. I think I noticed plenty of validation, even if I can be pretty bad at explaining it. Feel free to take note of what of the above you'd say makes sense, or agree with, as well.


 * That said, you're probably right in that it's best to simply state the extent of their feat on their respective pages, and avoid personal semi-speculation rather than let readers decide for themselves, unless explicit through competitions or similar. Dave 09:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Power Level
Along with Happosai, Rouge, and possibly Ryoga wielding his perfect Shishi Hokodan, he's one of the characters with highest amount of raw power in the series

I think I'm going to need to see a justification of this line. Happosai and Ryoga do not to me come even close, and Herb to me actually does given the end result of Ranma's battle with him was the destruction of an entire mountain. Derekloffin 17:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Happosai can effortlessly generate a battle aura large as a skyscraper, which is the greatest scale any character in the series has acted at, and Cologne has commented that his full power (even more powerful lust aura) could lay waste the Earth (yes, obviously an exaggeration, but still a gauge that he's virtually unstoppable). A single strike from it can easily instantly beat Taro's cursed form, while it handled Asura's fire-storm considerably better/for an extended time. Herb can focus his power into extremely sharp slices, highly repeated use of which could destabilise a mountain, but hardly incinerate it (we've only seen him incinerate small amounts of rock when aiming at Ranma). His edge (no pun intended) lies in his precise control of what he has. Given that he was awed by Ryoga's full chi-generation, it seems vastly greater in sheer potency, but given that it's 'only' incinerated a 5m deep 12m diameter crater (though that's just from the side-effect of aiming it upwards instead of full-efficiency/forward), it's uncertain enough to warrant a 'possibly' when compared with Saffron, Rouge, or Happosai. Dave 17:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, I might give Happy, but the Ryoga bit and the Herb are still not really convincing me, they both both should be at least in the possibly bit. Derekloffin 17:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, Herb's entire deal is 'I'm really dangerous because I can mold my ki into razor-sharp blades'. His wider blasts have 'only' been shown to incinerate 1x1x6m of rock, and it took a whole lot of extended (let's say at least 50 or so) slicing blasts to destabilise that mountain. Slicing through something with a katana takes enormously less power than vaporising it, but is equally dangerous. And he did consider Ryoga as vastly more powerful in this respect. This isn't a case of me saying that he's far less _dangerous_ than Saffron. I think they're about even, or give Saffron a certain edge, since Ranma was greatly helped by the Kinjakan (Or was it the Gekkaja? I never manage to keep them apart), just that I view Herb as a lever/bullet and Saffron as a bulldozer/cannonball. I agree about the 'possibly' for Ryoga though. It's only been implied that his full blasts might reach Saffron level if directed forwards. Dave 17:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Saffron was actually also aided by the artifact, so it's not his pure power, and destabilizing a mountain is no small feat either. Mountains regularly stand up to Earthquakes with more energy than nukes, so they aren't exactly a house of cards to destabilize and Saffron was only shown to do this to the top of the mountain. And when did he consider Ryoga vastly more powerful in this respect? Derekloffin 18:06, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * True, Saffron might have been aided by the artifact. Good point, though we don't really know if he needed it or not. Regardless' that would make him less powerful. As for Herb slicing through something with 50+ blasts, that's a far shot away from toppling it over in one brute force shot. He was awed by Ryoga's output. It's highly illogical to be awed by someone who doesn't vastly exceed you in the shown respect. Also, Ryoga vaporised roughly 2*((6m)^3)*3.14/3~452m^3 of bedrock during his first fight with Ranma (though it took him 2 shots to do so, but it seems sensible that he could do considerably worse if pointed forward), while we've only seen Herb handle 8m^3. Again, Herb is explicitly repeatedly shown as a lever, not a bulldozer. As a side-note as I understand it nuclear explosion are generally spread out in the directions with least resistance (the air), and are hardly focused into an edge. Then again there are plenty of underground tests as well. (Edit: I re-checked and the crater appeared like a 6m radius half-globe when Ranma was knocked out on the edge of it, and it seemed more like an 12m rather than 6m long 'ditch') Dave 18:21, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Another re-check made me notice that the size of that crater is somewhat inconsistently portrayed, and is shown as about 3m deep, 13m diameter a little later. Oh well. Dave 19:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all, you don't know it's awe, that's an interpretation (and yes, you can be awed by something weaker than you, I'm sure if you saw a humming bird fly by carrying a cat, you'd pause in awe). Also, it wasn't Herb slicing blasts that destabilized the mountain, it was his Rei Shi Hisho (Flying Dragon Spirit which is a concussive attack not even meant to attack the mountain, just using the ground as a reflector) that did, he says this explicitly in the dialog. Additionally, Ryoga's blast isn't vaporizing anything, it scattering and compacting.  If it was vaporizing it would be showing a vaporizing effect yet doesn't (Lime is compacted into the ground, but not even singed).  In fact, most of Herb's attacks during the battle are of the concussive variety.  We know this because hitting Ranma numerous times, and the ground, Ranma's clothes are uncut, and the result to the ground is trenches blasted away, not clean cuts like he did to the kettle stone.  In fact, he only uses his cutting ki explicitly one time (however he only explicitly uses the Rei Shi Hisho only once too but his dialog says he was using it multiple times off screen). Derekloffin 18:44, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see how being instantly woken up and staring with a wide-eyed baffled/stunned expression, can be interpreted in another way than awe. Also, it fits with what in story terms was intended to be a "Wow!" moment, with a hundreds of meters wide light effect. If the even more dangerous Cologne can state explicit amazement, so can Herb. Take the scene for what it's presented as. Herb was impressed by someone managing to greatly exceed him in one single respect, as he was later when Ranma managed a narrow victory.
 * Ryoga's battle with Ranma seemingly had a vaporising effect on the ground below. The impact scattered some sand from the areas not connected to it, but the crater itself was shown as mostly clean, without sediment spread about it. After all, impact doesn't necessarily disinclude overloading/vaporising ordinary matter with the kinetic energy. Lime is one of the two most durable characters in the series (along with Taro) and could handle it far better than rock. Regardless, it's a very good point, though largely irrelevant to this context, given that the effect of Herb's aforementioned blast was shown exactly the same way, 'burrowing impact', and possibly 'kinetic energy overload', but with far less single effect. It's a worthwhile clarification/question mark to insert into appropriate parts of the profiles though.
 * The same goes for Herb's initial Ryu Sei Hisho. Just a few minor impacts on the ground he bounced them from. When female Ranma was hit by Herb's 'regular-style' impact-blasts a few pages later they were enough to briefly stun her, but not to unconsciousness or remotely to the effect of the Shishi Hokodan of the fight with Ryoga a few volumes earlier, where simply being grazed by the outermost limit of the full-powered version was enough to instantly knock out her male form for an extended period. Individually the shown effects of these blasts were hardly remotely mountain-shattering. I've rechecked and you're right in that Herb only explicitly uses (shouts out) his far more devastating 'Hito Ryu-Zan Ha' once (which was able to slice the large stone ladle from the top it was standing on), while it's uncertain whether he uses them when enraged and aiming badly for the jumping Ranma, but given that the boulder Ryoga threw to save his ally was sliced in two, it seems to, at the very least, have been a mixed variety during all the off-screen 'aim-and-bouncing', and by comparing the extent of individual 'wide' or cutting attacks, it's the only one where cumulative usage actually makes sense to have caused such an effect, or it would have been an incredibly unstable mountain on top of a fault line. Dave 19:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but that interpretation of his expression is exactly that, a bias interpretation, and it not supported by the canon. No where does it say Herb is impressed by being exceeded, greatly or otherwise, and his actions do not support this.  He never shows any fear, any hesitation, or any real concern at someone tossing out huge energy either.  That's hardly the response of someone who has just witnessed his power level greatly exceeded.
 * The entire scene was constructed/set up as 'moment of awe', with Herb woken up, struck speechless and wide-eyed at a 300 meters wide globular visual effect. I mean there's a limit to how far you can stretch the 'individual interpretation' clausule when seeing someone with that kind of expression. Again, the alternatives would be far more unlikely rather than reading the most obvious given presentation as is. I could upload the relevant images for general examination if you wish.

(Edit: Here they are: They're not intended to stay for very long though) He's/she's also impressed when examining the impact crater with Lime utterly defeated in it, and given the shown extent of his own impact blasts I very much doubt he could have pulverised the latter in a single shot. He's an arrogant      , and had no indication that Ranma was responsible for achieving the feat, or that whoever did it could remotely match his skill or versatility. He had tested Ranma's ability earlier, and found her wanting. Being impressed shouldn't send him fleeing, any more than Lime himself, though possibly try harder. They are hardened, fearless, and merciless warriors, who were completely focused on reaching the ladle first. That's it. Fleeing, or doubts isn't their style at all. Much less when Herb had asserted his confidence by returning to male form.
 * I've seen the pics, and if anything they show the opposite to me. In fact, when he's at the crater he says 'both' indicating the blast wasn't impressive enough to warrant it getting separate mention from Mint being simply tied up in a tree.  There is no gawking wide eyed moment from Herb, it is way more subdued than that and I simply totally disagree with your interpretation of it.  Arrogant or not, he's not showing any kind of worry/nervousness/hesitation/etc that would support him feeling he was out powered.  You can't from this interpret that he feels he was out powered.  There is NOTHING here that supports it being anything more a bit of surprise or awe (which again, back to the humming bird, doesn't mean much in the end).
 * He lifted Lime and is surprised at seeing one of the two most durable characters in the series completely knocked out. Nothing we've seen from his wider blasts indicates that Herb could have achieved the same in one strike. Lime also stood right beside Ryoga when he generated the blast, so the effect should have been considerably more focused than the ones which hit Ranma. That Herb was likewise surprised at seeing Mint overcome doesn't detract from the former. (Though he only gave the latter a glance, while personally checking the former's state) The initial awe in his face is explicit. It seems very grasping to seek to mitigate this part. The humminbird interpretation is far-fetched, as this would merely instill curiousity/a raised eyebrow, rather than feeling overwhelmed by an at least 300m wide visual spectacle (Something Herb has yet to remotely match), which is the very essence of awe. It's also a vast exaggeration, as while he considered Ranma inferior, the latter still managed to land a few hits. Not hardly the level where you'd see him as an insect or hummingbird, rather than a rather impotent rival. Beyond this he didn't know whoever was responsible.


 * I also can't agree with your shi shi analysis. The Shi Shi Hokodon was clearly shown, several times, to be crushing attack.  In pushed Ranma down the to ground and crushed him, did the same to Ryoga when he lost concentration, and when Ranma finally defeated him, he did so using the extra downward force from it.  And in this arc we have Lime once more crushed into the ground. At no time are does anyone effected by it show damage from anything other than this (even Ranma and Ryoga's clothes are fully intact at the end of the fight showing that even explosive aftermath is relatively weak and people can stand mere feet from it safely).  It was never shown to have any disintegrating effect, only a compacting one on the ground 100% consistent with it being a crushing downward force.  The closest it comes to disintegrating/vaporizing is a bit of 'sizzle' but the rest doesn't bear it out having any significant heat either.
 * And Ranma's clothes somehow withstood the heat from being caught in Asura's and Saffron's blaze as well. This part at least is a frequent story convention of most 'high-power' comics, so not everyone runs around naked. As you may note above, I'm not saying that it isn't mostly an impact attack, and complimented you on a good point (though I'm also not automatically disincluding that it can have a vaporising, or at least pulverising effect, given the 'mysteriously disappearing bedrock', though that may be another convention) but Herb's similar type of chi-blasts are set up exactly the same way, so it's largely irrelevant to the respectively shown extent of the damage, where Ryoga lead by far.
 * Actually, it's very relevant and compressing ground is a vastly weaker effect than disintegrating it. Cracking a mountain is to me far more impressive, so at best it an extremely subjective assertion that Ryoga is more powerful.  Without anything significant to support a disintegrating effect, and everything supporting a much simpler crushing effect, it is not nearly as impressive.
 * Well compressing, rather than cracking/pulverising, the ground seems somewhat odd, given that we saw protruding rocks sticking out inside the crater and again Herb's blasts created a vastly more limited impact area on the mountain. Also, pulverising or compressing the ground doesn't necessarily take considerably less force, as the impact crater of Ryoga's strike was very similar to that characteristic of a small meteor. Beyond that we don't know how much of it was stone or reinforced cement (was the ones he struck Lime with, or 'demonstrated' to Akane situated on rock?), and a sufficiently powerful man with a large iron sledgehammer could eventually crack the hard, but more brittle mountain firmament, while the impact area from simply bluntly striking at hard, stone-packed, pressure-diverting earth wouldn't be markedly different. Both Ryoga and Herb's (regular) blasts obviously mostly have a blunt impact effect, so I see the situations as largely comparable. Or at the very least that 12m^3 of the former doesn't remotely compare to, say, at the very least (strongest blast effect) 250m^3 small meteor-strike crater of the latter, if we're talking sheer power output. Heck, just Ryoga's regular hand strikes near the beginning of the series were show to effortlessly cleave boulders in two through force alone, and even his regular versions seem to have a greater impact than that.


 * And later in the same Arc, being hit at the epi-center of the Shi Shi, Ranma retained consciousness easily, even against ones more powerful than the one that knocked him out and being hit several times, so you can't use that as an accurate measure of the Shi'shi power as it is inconsistent within that arc and is most likely simply due to Ranma underestimating it since that was the first time he got hit that knocked him out, whereas he had encountered Herb's attack before so he would have been ready for it that time. Derekloffin 20:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That Ranma wasn't affected to the same extent, in itself shows that the second (only) one he was hit with full force was not nearly as powerful as the first (he was only incapacitated for a minute). I've made a specific point of this when mentioning it previously. The later ones were mostly absorbed by Ryoga, and likely diminished due to breaking his concentration. Like it or not, the first blast really was shown as powerful enough to completely knock out Ranma by being grazed, and given that he doesn't get 20x more durable in 10 minutes, the only way the later instances make sense is if the second one was considerably less powerful than the first, and Ryoga absorbed most of the impact from the others. Beyond this, the damage is vastly more dilluted from such a wide discharge than a narrow, focused blast, which makes it even more impressive. Dave 21:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree, there is nothing to indicate the 1st one to hit Ranma is the most powerful. Plus, yes several of the others did hit Ranma full force (he only figured out the trick after taking 2 more blasts right in the middle of the effect).  The only explanation that works is that the first one to hit caught him off guard (since he both had not been hit yet to gauge it's power, and was expecting to cancel it out, this is VERY likely). I fail to see any other way working.  Even if the 1st one was the most powerful, the others would have to be dramatically weaker to not again knock him cold when he's right at the center of the blast and already injured from the one that KO'ed him. Derekloffin 22:24, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Off-guard? That doesn't make any sense. Ranma was seeing it approaching. He was attempting to slow it down by stretching out his arms and blasting it. He took it head-on, and was incredibly impressed by its previously displayed power, to the point where his own confidence-bolstered attempt almost fizzled. Underestimating it isn't within the realm of possibility. I've re-checked, and Ranma was indeed struck by a second one which took him out for a minute, and seemed considerably weaker than the first two (the demonstration and the one which grazed him), going by crater impact and that he was only down for a minute, and a third one which seemed even weaker, given that it merely briefly stunned him (and likewise had limited ground impact), which Ryoga's regular size version has been able to do, even when stuck in child form. (Then again, that one is much more focused) The fourth one Ranma apparently ducked from, while distracting the standing Ryoga into taking the brunt force, and the final more powerful strike Ryoga he rode the blast and directed the full force into Ryoga's head to amplify his own punch.
 * Full effect is still not in however, as the vastly spread out impact area limits the amount of force Ranma could have absorbed. If Ryoga ever managed to focus his full output into regular blast width, rather than a very dispersed globe, whose outer (glowing but almost impact free) layers reached up to 200m from his person, we could be talking in these terms. In case the impact was mostly evenly spread within the main (smaller) globe Ranma took at most 1/(3.14*6^2)~1/112th of the full effect (counting his body as an about 1m^3 area), if we're strictly talking percentage of the regular impact area, though likely far more if the effect was stronger in the middle parts, as has been implied in the Lime case. If you wish we could resolve the dilemma this way. Perhaps the first one to hit Ranma was more tighly concentrated, while the later ones were more dispersed/unfocused, much like the massive light-show phenomena Herb saw, or the blast to the sky viewed by Akane? Though the whole 'lesser crater impact/force' bit should factor in as well. Dave 11:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

I see this is going around in circles and you're not doing your argument any better to me. I still find this claim to be unsupportable, and that you are stretching interpretation way beyond limits to say it's factual. You're using circular logic (it's power is determined by it's effect on Ranma which you're using to determine it's power) and disregarding alternate theories out of hand. This statement needs neutralization as it is very stretched. Derekloffin 17:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, the whole 'off-guard' argument is far more far-fetched, and loosely based than the bases for my own interpretations. I'm sorry, but from my point of view you've been quite unwilling to be reasonable and stretching very far, no matter how many points I bring up. The crater impact depth is a valid gauge, and the only other consistently reliable one we have access to is the effect on Ranma, who isn't likely to turn far more durable in a few minutes, so my interpretation certainly seems to have a much stronger foundation than your own in this respect. Ryoga's blasts simply displayed different amounts of force. There's nothing particularly strange about that. The same thing goes for the spread about impact area. However, I've never argued against using an 'apparently' or similar when simply using the by far most likely alternative. Beyond this I also forgot to mention above that the butterfly argument is further undercut byt that as Herb viewed the scene, he/she was simply awakened by sensing a vast chi-discharge. He/she at the moment had no automatic mental connection to Ranma or his companions, but rather would view it much in the way it as an awe-inspiring natural phenomena, quite beyond oneself. Dave 18:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing this anymore with you Dave, you seem to be stubbornly holding to a very questionable possible and proposing it not as possible, but fact. If you don't change this reference to a more neutral one, I will because it is clearly biased and a heck of a stretch of logic based on very weak premises.  Derekloffin 20:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)