Talk:Sahaj Marg/Archive 1

Universal brotherhood is not a formality in Sahaj Marg like it is in many other places. We practice it and we don't need to prove that you.

As i said, if you want a NPOV even these statements about christ must be put on the website.

'''Not for nothing Christ said, "Love thy neighbor as thy self." And my neighbour is not just one who is sitting next to me, but everybody is my neighbour, including trees, animals, birds, insects.''' If you say, "I love my wife," it may not be a lie. But you cannot love your wife and not love everybody else. This light cannot shine only for you. The sun is universal. Air, light, water-God gave to everybody. Essentials of life are free. Love is an essentiality. We cannot live without love. We cannot have been born without love. And if we die without love, that would be a terrible death, a death in isolation, in misery, in hopelessness

There is something that we are lacking in offering to the local people, the American population, for whose sake the Mission exists here. Of course, it exists to serve the Indians, too, but it is not an Indian Mission. But, it is a Mission which was started in India. Its guru is not an Indian guru, he happens to have been born in India, and therefore he is an Indian. And the system is not an Indian system, though it is based on the ancient yogic systems. These are accidents of birth, nationality and geography. You know like Christ is not only for Jerusalem, and Mohammad, may His name be blessed, is not only for Saudi Arabia or Jeddah or wherever. They are all personalities recognized as universal, whose philosophies, whose teachings are for all mankind, for those who are willing to accept them, as is the case with the Buddha, too, so also with my Master.

I don't have the time to argue with you.

Ta

Hi Seeker...This is Don

Why don't you relate to what was written in the speech I am quoting from? To quote Christ does not absolve Chari of the Statements he wrote and spoke in Denmark. I understand that you are bound to defend the Guru, but get him to speak the truth and not attack other religions and religious teachings if he wants to be "non-sectarian".

You don't seem to understand the statements he spoke, so I will ask a Catholic Church authority to come a make a statement from their perspective. Maybe then you can ask forgiveness from them for the un-necessary denigrating of another religion to make your group look good. If Chari can claim to erase Samskaras, or to get messages from the dead as in your "Whispers from the Brighter World", then he should not deny the claim of the Catholic Church to "forgive sins" or the Messianic mission of the Christ. The forgiveness of sins is attributed to Christ and to his Church (the priests), according to the Catholics. You can believe it or not but you cannot deny it and then claim to be "non-sectarian".... Any other quotes of Christ, by Chari does not relate to this issue. You can quote Mahatma Gandhi, but it does not make you "simple". You can quote Christ but it does not make you "loving". Christians try to love their neighbour and also the "enemy" or those who do you wrong, your group tries to love the Guru and the Mission. I am trying to get you and Chari to love the Catholics and the Catholic Church and stop trying to "steal" their sheep but denying their beliefs. That might grow your numbers but it will not create "goodwill" in the world nor make a "spiritual" population.

Relate to the quotes and the speech I mention and get your Master to apologize or ask forgiveness to the Catholics for denying their faith in the confession and the Messianic Mission of Christ who they believe is the "Word Made Flesh", much as Chari claims that the Guru (himself?) is the "flesh and blood embodiement of the Divine" (direct quote from your material). Re-read the speech and try to understand Chari's words and their meaning. It is typical for manipulated individuals to have selective understanding that is not of the "universal" understanding of the rest of the world. I trust you speak and understand English.

Your rituals and your belief in your need of a Guru to get to God and have your samskaras erased is just as sectarian as the belief of the Catholics in the "truth" of the confession and the Messianic Mission of Christ and his part in the Trinity (the son of God). Your duty as a "spiritual" person is to respect that. Your group claims that anyone of any faith can be an abhyasi and keep their religious beliefs and rituals. Live up to your words and respect the other religions of the world.

Ask your God for some understanding and some compassion for other religious beliefs! At least, don't try to "weasel" out of the words of your Master, even though they put your group in a bad (sectarian) light.

God Bless you

Don

Don,

Here are a few Excerpts from speeches given by Master -

'''Not for nothing Christ said, "Love thy neighbor as thy self." And my neighbour is not just one who is sitting next to me, but everybody is my neighbour, including trees, animals, birds, insects.''' If you say, "I love my wife," it may not be a lie. But you cannot love your wife and not love everybody else. This light cannot shine only for you. The sun is universal. Air, light, water-God gave to everybody. Essentials of life are free. Love is an essentiality. We cannot live without love. We cannot have been born without love. And if we die without love, that would be a terrible death, a death in isolation, in misery, in hopelessness

There is something that we are lacking in offering to the local people, the American population, for whose sake the Mission exists here. Of course, it exists to serve the Indians, too, but it is not an Indian Mission. But, it is a Mission which was started in India. Its guru is not an Indian guru, he happens to have been born in India, and therefore he is an Indian. And the system is not an Indian system, though it is based on the ancient yogic systems. These are accidents of birth, nationality and geography. You know like Christ is not only for Jerusalem, and Mohammad, may His name be blessed, is not only for Saudi Arabia or Jeddah or wherever. They are all personalities recognized as universal, whose philosophies, whose teachings are for all mankind, for those who are willing to accept them, as is the case with the Buddha, too, so also with my Master.

Don,

As i said Christ has also in his time criticized the methods and practices followed by the jews of his time. But you follow him. why ? It is because you want to believe only what you want to believe. So don't call others blind. You choose to remain blind for the things you opt to. I am not blaming christ here. He was right in doing what he did.

Go and Read the speech properly.

1. He has mentioned that no one really wept for christ's sacrifices.

2. The speech also implies that probably if Christ had lived on , he could have brought about lot of changes.

As i have said he has also given lots of other speeches where he has given the example of christ, for the love he had for humanity. Please give those links here and you would be doing a fair job.

Thanks for your wishes. God's bessings are always there. It is we who either accept it or deny it.

Hi Seeker and all...

Maybe if we get someone from the Catholic Church to comment on this, you will know what they think of the confession. Chari claims to "erase samskaras" (which is about the same thing). If the priest can't take away sins, then neither can Chari erase Samskaras as he claims. He is making a judgment on what Christ can do. I leave that to the Christians to define for themselves. At least they are honest about what they do. Everthing in this part of his speech is "sectarianism". He claims that his "sect" is better than the "Christian" sect. He judges and denigrates what he does not know!. Maybe if he had studied Philosophy instead of engineering and Business, he would be more intellectually enlightenend.

Sections from the Speech in Denmark http://www.srcm.org/literature/recent.speeches/051101_Denmark.jsp

''So you are lucky. If you were in religion, you would have to go to church and you know, tell lies in that wonderful place called the confessional. “Lord, forgive me for what I have done this week.” And there’s an equally sinful priest on the other side of the curtain saying, “In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I absolve you of your sins.” Something he has no power to do. No man on earth has power to absolve you of your sins except two people: one yourself, and one your God. In between there is nobody who can do it. That is why religion is useless, that is why religion has failed. That’s why you are all here, not in church.''

In this next part of his speech, he denies Christ's ability to fulfill his "Messianic" duties, which is central to the Christian faith. Again he is not qualified to do so and is being "sectarian", attacking other's faith. He seems to know what Christ has done and why. And his statements are almost "dogmatic". Chari should say that "Chari is not wise" so as to be called "humble". Christ's message of love (even love the enemy), is the underpinning of western society and has survived for 2000 years. To say it has no value today, is not Christ's fault, but because of people who abuse the "love" that Christians are supposed to have and think it "not Wise"....

''I am no Christ, you know, to crucify myself on the cross for all of you. Do you think Christ was a wise man, that he became crucified so that forever and ever after humanity is absolved of its sins? I don’t think so. It gave you more license for indulgence. But after all, you have been forgiven two thousand years ago for what you are going to do today, what your children are going to do ten years hence, and so on and so forth. I don’t think he was wise. He left no room, no incentive for human beings to change, become moral, become spiritual. You are all happy, you see, that you had a Christ who got crucified. None of us weep for Christ. We are happy. “God bless him,” we say, which is another blasphemy. You need blessings, not Christ.''

If you don't see that, it's because you don't want to or are blind by choice or design (Sahaj Marg has blinded you, and made you more dense). As Christ would say: Let those who have eyes, see!

PS...I am not a follower of a "PERSON" or a MAN....Spirituality means to have a relationship with "SPIRIT", not a pyramidical Structure such as Sahaj Marg, or a MAN.

May the ONE God, Bless you...And show you respect for other religions, or faiths.

Don....

Don,

Which specific part of the speech are you referring to. I have read through it and don't find anything wrong with it. You have to take the whole speech into consideration and not just one sentence and say he is judgemental.

To speak about the truth, I can't speak about anything else external to me than my own self. I have seen changes and what i am writing here is based on that. They are not based on any speeches - ofcourse i have drawn inspiration from the speeches I have heard. But what i am writing is based on my experience. So I don't have to convince you or pretend to you.

I think you are from Canada and there are a very few people like you who have left after practicing for quite some time. There are lot of other people who are still practicing and are Canadians. So people are experiencing and practicing whatever you may think about it. Do you claim that there would be no societal problems in Canada if Sahaj Marg was not practiced. Divorce rates were still high before Sahaj Marg entered the picture.

That you were born in Canada is an accident. You could have been born anywhere else. So don't say 'my world' as if you own Canada. If that is the case why do you speak about Christ and claim to follow him when you know that he was not born in same part of the world as you.

Thanks for your wishes. You may be doing these with good intentions but you can already see lot of other people who have an opinion different from yours.

Hi Seeker...

We now have your contribution to the truth recorded here. Now check out the speech by Chari in Jan, 06 in Denmark, and see if Chari is being "non-sectarian" or "uniting" with the Danish Christians. or the Catholic Church (see his statement on "Confession". See his statements on Christ.  Is he being "judgemental" with Christ?

http://www.srcm.org/literature/recent.speeches/051101_Denmark.jsp

Is he "putting the Danish Christians down"? I think so! I will speak my contribution to the truth. I am not trying to steal the Danish Christian "sheep" away from Christianity so as to add numbers to my "gang". I have no agenda beside the whole truth, including Chari's truth about Christianity which is in that speech and your truth which is now recorded. On this site, all parts of the truth constitute THE TRUTH!

The "Easter/western thing" that you mention, your group started when you left your country and came to our shores, thinking and actually claiming that you were God's gift to Humanity and then you don't deliver on the product you promised: the "gift". We were willing to believe you one time, and one time only. Now we have tasted your "pudding" and have seen the societal problems you cause. Now you are like the rest of us. Stop pretending to be "spiritually elevated" and show the "spirituality" that you actually have, and become a good citizen of a changing world which will not blindly accept your "fantasy".

I did not go to your country claiming to be a Master and represent God and wanting you to "kneel" or bow to me. You came to me in my world! I will speak!

Thanks for putting your bit in....We hear you! Let the people decide what they believe! You call yourself a seeker, may you become a finder!

Don

Don, To speak and represent the truth, you need to present all facts. Master in many of his speeches has given the example of Jesus christ and the love that he had for humanity. So it would be better if those facts are also presented along with these. Also, if you take the history of Christ he has spoken against the method's of worship adopted by the jews of his time. I am not comparing Master with Christ but i am just pointing out to you that these things have happened in the past. Will you attack Christ for that ?

If any organization grows then such a structure is inevitable. You can't expect Master to run it the same way it was 30 years back. Using your terminology - The so called castle's and acquisitions are being used only for the purpose of meditation and comforts are kept to the minimum standards acceptable to human beings to just sit and meditate. In India where so called spiritual guru's dominate the political scene, SRCM could have become much bigger and more powerful - Master has kept it way from all politics as other Masters have done.

Please don't start this eastern / western thing and Please don't ridicule the practice followed by 300,000 people by calling it 'foolish'.

Michael,

Thanks for your clarification. Religious analogies are good sometimes !! I am not looking to defend here and so too is Yogesh. Each one is speaking from his own experience and understanding. Real Masters and saints don't belong to any particular country or religion (This is what Babuji has said )and the same applies to Christianity. One does not have to practice Christianity to know or quote Christ.

I have been with Sahaj marg for close to 20 years now. I have seen a few people who have gone out after being closely associated with the mission. Most of them did very funny things before they left(I don't want to mention names) and they even told before leaving that 'other Master's were never like this'. I am sure Babuji would not have approved of whatever they were doing and neither would you if you knew what they did. My opinion is that what Master has done by making the mission disciplined is justified because because he has to deal with such people. Some have even apoligized to Master later and are still continuing their practice. Some others left because they were not ready to accept someone who was their associate not long back becoming the Master which i think was the real reason why they left.I am not sure about your experience but for me all that Master has done is fair.

Seeker

Yogesh,

I am a practicing Christian and was a Preceptor in your mission at one time. I practiced Sahaj Marg for over 10 years. I knew Babuji, the founder of Sahaj Marg, and got marginally close to Chari's inner circle for a time. I also spent time with with one of the last living Sufi disciples of Lalaji, Babuji's Guru. So I believe I am qualified to address your comments with at least some knowedge of the Christian, Sahaj Marg and Sufi traditions.

Christ was crucified by a spiritual hierarcy for speaking the TRUTH and challenging the hierarcy and moving the hearts and minds of the people, thus your analogy is incorrect. Chari is at the pinnicle of the spiritual hirearcy. People like Don and myself are merely speaking the truth as we know it. We are not a spiritual hierarcy in power trying to crucify a renegade Rabbi. We have no intention of judging Chari or taking him "down" so to speak. We don't even wish to convince abhyasis happy with the practice to leave. We are individuals who wish only that the Truth not be concealed by an organization of individuals who will twist the facts and hide the truths to attract new aspirants into their fold. We are the one's likely to be crucified here, not Chari. In fact, I was already crucified by Chari over 15 years ago for challenging, not him, but his organization, the Shri Ram Chandra Mission.

Since we're dealing with facts here, I will state some for you. Chari's exact words in writing to me 15 years ago were: "..you were disobedient in matters of the Mission". What is being documented here in this living history of facts and truths. The organization refered to as the Shri Ram Chandra Mission has become an entity that Chari himself insists disciples must love and obey in addition to or possibly even in lieu of the Master. This is a documented truth, not slander and brings into question the documented founding traditions of Sahaj Marg which state that "God cannot be found in the folds of any sect or religion". This is news worthy and pertinent for future historians who study this path of spirituality. Is this new "Mission" that everyone must love, and obey a new creation by Chari? Was it the intent of Babuji or Lalaji to create an organization that everyone must obey? Do today's abhyasis believe that loving and obeying the Mission brings them closer to God? These are the questions that arise from a historical perspective. Nowhere in the current literature of the SRCM is there any reference to "love and obedience to the Mission" however the Master has stated it in letters and speeches, and disciples have even made comments in various blogs to this effect. It is important that we understand this in the context of a historical, living encyclopedia and determine if this is a new aspect of Sahaj Marg, or an oral tradition that has been kept concealed from the rank and file Abhyasis until the early beginnings or Chari's reign.

Your commentary below, while innacurate and defensive, should remain in the archives as a clear example of the mindset of today's abhyasis who, when they feel their Mission is threatened, circle around their Master looking for religious analogies to defend him. Interesting, and noteworthy. Thank you for your contribution.

However, personally, I suggest that you please stick to the facts dear brother. If you wish to vent against myself or Don, we both have public blogs for you to do this on. They are even linked to in this very page.

If you do not have the courage to do so, and choose to hide behind your powerful Mission and Master and throw stones at the truth sayers who put themselves at risk doing so, perhaps you should spend some time thinking a bit more about what your words below actually represent in a living history such as Wikipedia. This is a place for facts and truth. It is a living history. I suggest you spend more time getting to know the facts behind your faith and the faith of others before making such contradictory comments that lack any logic or knowledge of a faith you don't even practice (Christianity). Your words are being recorded for future generations to read. Think about their implications to you, your Mission and your Master.

Regards

Michael

Hi Yogesh

I have Christ in my heart, and it is funny to hear someone who "pooh pooh"s Christ as "not wise" to quote him. Will you also quote Mahatma Gandhi to show that you are "simple" and not into "the material". I also have in my heart, most non-agressive, non-violent, non-materialist instruments of change (buddha etc.). What you do in the name of "spirituality", is spread "materialism", empirialism and religiosity. Under the claim of "non-sectarian", you attack other religions (ie Christianity), and try and steal their "sheep", with statements like "catholic priests cannot forgive sins" (but Chari can erase Samskaras), and "Christ was not wise". Under the name of non-dogmatism, you establish dogmas, such as "the living Master myth" (whereby no one can reach God without a living Master-as if we have to "go" somewhere to find the Divine in all of us). And then the absurd dogma: "God is Male and Nature is Female" taught to kids at your school. I would say, you do not know Nature at all, as you claim and I doubt that such statements show you "knowledge" of the Divine. You no doubt claim to be simple (no castles owners (SRCM) or mutiple dwellings owners (Chari's son?) in your group? eh?) The difference between your arrogance and our western "non-gullibility" is that we admit it and do not espound such ridiculous "dogma" as you or Chari. We do not crucify you, you crucify yourself with the nails of your own "denseness". You don't seriously believe that we will "believe" that sort of "hogwash" do you? You might reach the feeble minds. I will hold you to your own material and your own words.

Chari is the one crucifying (through, arrogance, ignorance and ignoring), the abhyasis who are tired of his "salesmanship" and his empire building and try to engage in a dialogue with him (or his PR bureaucracy).

Some abhyasis still foolishly believe in the Sahaj Marg path to the point of trying to save it. I just want to get out the truth of what Sahaj Marg and the Shri Ram Chandra Mission under Chari has become: Big Business, and religion, not spirituality. As I read your statement, I can see that you do not know God either. A religion without love or with a love that is turned inside rather that loving others, is not a "spirituality" but a club, a cult, a religion and a business.....You can claim all you want to be "raja Yoga" but anyone who knows a little about raja yoga knows that sahaj marg under chari is not that....where does the "Brighter World" and the 'Channelling" of messages (Whispers) from the dead fit into Raja Yoga? Sahaj Marg is Spiritualism.

We want Real Change, not just another Religious Scam!. Sahaj Marg is the Same old, Same old....

May you find your way and become a good person....

Don

Hi Don,

People who crucified Christ did not crucify him while knowing it to be wrong; rather they crucified him because they thought it was the only right thing to do. Gurus, Masters, Prophets (call them by any name) are agents of change and resistance to change is unavoidable. Infact the resistance is far more vocal & violent while the change comes in silently, often unnoticed, aided only by the efforts of a tiny minority who can recognize the Master for what He is. And wisdom is in refraining from resisting the resistance - and therefore Christ's prayer O! Father forgive them for they know not what they are doing!" So go ahead Don and continue to crucify Chariji & SRCM in your writings - I shall not be drawn into resisting the resistance. I will only raise my hands in prayer to the Lord to forgive you for you know not what you are doing.

202.88.170.204 15:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC) Yogesh Pathak

--

Hi A...

I did not see your questions....Hope you see this...

1. I am not sure by your attitude that you are reaching the Divine either, but that is your choice and I respect it. By their fruit, you will know them. Be loving, respectful, caring, compassionate and/or other qualities of the "spiritual" person and I will say about you that you are being 'spiritual"....What I see with Abhyasis, is not that. I see the opposite.

2.About God being Male Nature being Female....Here is a quote from Chari in the SMRTI, Youth Services, Chari Talks to Kids about God....Flawed theology leads to flawed philosophy (or no philosophy as Chari likes to say of Sahaj Marg, and leads to corrupt institutions with followers with flawed theology, flawed philosophy, flawed logic, intellect, morals, ethics etc... Look at the Curriculum and question the stories taught to the kids at the Lalaji Memorial OMEGA?? School.  Why Omega and not Alpha/Omega.  Is it the END? or is it a CODE?  ;-)) ..http://www.sahajmarg.org/youth/story92.html

Q: If God is formless and without attributes, why in the numerous books of literature in Sahaj Marg is God always referred to as "Him"? Chariji: God is male. Nature is female.

3. If someone says that homosexuality is "unnatural", that means that only man in his mental and intellectual perversion or abherration would practice it. If one finds homosexuality practiced in 450 species of animals, and historically in the species called Man, you hardly can say that it is "unnatural". You might say that it is "un-religious", un-Charist, or something like that but not un-natural. That is just logic. The Divine obviously created it, or allowed it, in nature. Sahaj Marg says be as Nature. Well, Chari, make sense....I am.

5. Good for you if you found someone to follow, even Chari, go ahead. That is your right. I will defend your right to be free and say what you want about it. Just don't try and stop me from sharing my experience. I am not looking for someone to follow, be my dad, my brother, or my MASTER, or to represent the ONE God, or to obey or serve.

I met Chari and I did not get the same experience as you. I, having been a banker, and having left it and its "materiality" because of my "spirituality" and morality, upon reading his Chari's condition, saw that if I took him as my "guide", (no one represents God in my life), he could only lead me to where he had been and that is where I had already been. The Material. I wanted "no light show", no "psy" trick, no religion or dogma, and no "obedience" as the catholic church had deteriorated into. I wanted to use my NATURAL god-given intellect and logic and am still in communication and in contact with the ONE, as IT is I. and I am IT. IT is not outside. IT is INSIDE. IT is not MALE and IT respects ALL including HOMOSEXUALS. All the Traps of Sahaj Marg are OUTSIDE.

God Bless you and May you reach LIBERATION from SRCM (the INSTITUTION, not SAhaj Marg), and begin your INNER journey by yourself and the ONE. No one else with you as co-dependent, beggar, serf or to rely on...In other words Be an Adult.

don

Hi all (spaceman) Good edit...I agree with most of what you say...

The way to put in a Point of view statement On wikipedia,as the gay and lesbian statement is to say "Many abhyasis claim to know gays or lesbians in SRCM" or something like that...That is an unproveable statement and is not a fact but an opinion. But when the leader makes a statement, it is a fact for that institution until retracted. The "product" (what SRCM is selling) of Sahaj Marg is "spirituality" with includes all the qualities tolerance, openness, non-sectarianism, no defaming or ridiculing other religions as Chari has done in his recent speech, with the Catholic priests in Denmark (regarding confession). That is the "proof of the pudding" of spirituality. Chari starts controversy so as to gather numbers, and then you (the servants) scream "abuse". If the Catholic Church in Denmark begins action againsT SRCM you will understand why....do not blame them.

The Techniques

The practice and the techniques to achieve the stated goal are another thing. I will not challenge that as it originates with SRCM, but SRCM should reveal what the techniques are (all of them). The "Obedience" to the Guru, for instance is very important to Chari as he mentions it all the time in the litterature and speeches. It should be part of the entries in the encyclopedia also. All of the statements of the Leader should be available to the "curious" and searcher, not just a selected few as propaganda. That is just honest.

Fear Mongering

What most people fear is the unknown. If they are researching because of loved ones being involve in a group, it is because they want to know the truth so as to minimize the "unknown". Most adults can deal with the truth. The prophesies in the litterature and the Channelled "Whispers" are more frightening that what I will say to them. The "special personality" who's job it is to "destroy" is not a "spiritual" but an apocalyptic and religious fear mongering. I do not write those things although I could. It is a gift we all have but do not use so as to leave the future free from our "imprints" or samskaras. I do not play at spirituality I live it.

The statement that SRCM has to defend itself about are the statements and the actions it does itself. Like all institutions, if we can get them to adhere to their own rules, we would have a paradise. You do not have to prove anything but you cannot undo other's statements also. If someone disputes the succession for instance, that is a fact. SRCM does not have to prove anything. You cannot deny that the "dispute" is there. That is all....Democracy....Information, not propaganda...and not controlled. You do not have to convince me of you innocence, I know you are innocent. It is about SRCM that we talk about. As an institution, it has a history and that is "registered" and can be documented. History does not constitute "the truth", but people have to decide what they believe. The Hero in one history is a "traitor" in another history. Same with SRCM. Some see it as a sect (cult) and those inside do not. Of course. Wikipedia can accomodate both. That is good. No debate about the truth of the issue but exposing all the "points of view" on the issues, including those who are not favourable to you.

Succession

That includes respecting Mr Narayana, Saxena etc... On your site you don't have to relate to them at all, here you do. This is the truly spiritual (respect one another) site. One is not right and the other wrong. Both have different points of view. Some get their revelations from their dreams, some get them from their Master and some are requested to "be tested" by others etc....All have a place at Wikipedia without judgement.

I will not comment on Chari's character or job, some people like that some don't. If someone claims to represent Someone else who is in my Life (the DIVINE), I can challenge that statement. And demand proof. For instance, the DIVINE does not insist on OBEDIENCE for me but leaves me free to "think" and to use logic. His representative should do that also. ...

Just a request: Chari could encourage all the abhyasis to make peace with their families and friends as a good will gesture. (show some caring, love, compassion etc, the spiritual qualities to show that they are spiritual and safe with SRCM). The ones I am in contact with have become "dense" and cannot use logic easity and constantly "defend" or "ignore", are uncaring, etc.....That is a symptom of manipulation not spirituality. That would alleviate the suffering and concern cause by SRCM since Chari has been involved.

Other issues...

As far as disservice to the many happy abhyasis, I do not serve them but I serve the Truth. There are one billion catholics and most are good people but the Catholic church as many other churches and sects, as intitutions,  have been found guilty of historic atrocities by history. Wikipedia is Dynamic History. It is history as it happens.

About the money, I know institutions need money that is what spirituality was always the job of Ascetics and maybe a few Mahatma Ghandis, which we can see did not become "materialist" or idolatrous. The searcher had to find the Master. Now the Master needs money so he can go and find the Searcher or to create searchers. It's marketing and it needs money....

When an instittution starts using Structures, (temples, schools) and "images" it stops being spiritual (inner journey) and become a religion (outer journey, proselytizing etc..). That will be recorded about SRCM under Chari, not under Lalaji or Babuji. Christ would say: Give away all the money!!...Away with the material and into the spiritual. But that is not SRCM. So let us record that.

About the "witch hunt" in France about non-catholic institutions. That is not accurate. The French history records their revolutions to take power from all religions, including the Holy Roman Catholic Church, which really was an Empire (the remnants of the Roman Empire). That include "divine rights of kings" and now could include "divine rights of gurus". People have lost their lives for this cause and they do not want another "totalitarian" religion to get a foothold on their soil. Specially one who demands "obedience" and allegiance above all. I agree with the French. Democracy is to be defended against Theocracy, including the Christian Churches. specially those that have a history of atrocities (In India, research Brahmanism, Aryanism, read the Dalits and the Dravidian acounts of encounters with these). When the leader represents God or claims to be the "flesh and blood incarnation of God, as in SRCM, and has all the political power in an institution, it is a theocracy. Does that sound like SRCM? Canadian SRCM has 4 Canadians and 7 foreigners on the Board of Directors. Is that democracy.

About Money. You bring up the same argument as all institutions that do a few token good deeds to justify their gathering pools of money from the "average joe". Some examples:

Nazism is humanitarian see all the good deeds it did for the German poor. (Aryan Nation) Sugar in moderations is good for kids, see all the good deeds it does in the world. (Big Sugar PR) Coke is good for the world, it creates job in poor countries. And the list goes on....

if SRCM wants to open its books to the public, we can see. If it won't, we will wonder why not? It's not only the donations but the "selective" donations for maximum PR (911, the Tsunami and not Darfur or the Palestian (Muslim) cause. The Gurjarat disaster where donation seem politically motivated.  etc....  Open books would solve the issue and take the business and politics out of Spirituality or have it recorded in the History.

As far as Wikipedia, the issues are too many to cover here. The job here is to educate by giving all points of view in a fair forum.....Journalistic style for unproven claims, etc.

I appreciate your candor and you attempt to communicate. Although I am not a religious person, I am a spiritual person and I truly believe we can come together.I hope I've covered all your points....

Keep on the Sunny Side of Life... 4d-don

Dear Spaceman,

Point taken. There will be no more posts from my side.

A

Hi Everybody, ---spaceman- 09:11, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we should avoid entering a confrontation on Sahaj Marg, Srcm and Chariji here. It comes by itself BUT this board is not a place meant for that. We are to discuss the wikipedia pages here, and to make them adhere to reality (yeah, i also smile while writing it).

Don, I actually think it is a noble thing your desire to make yourself useful, trying to warn people, if that is the case, for things that are not good for them. I do also believe that people don't need to be "protected" from sahaj marg has you will agree this is not a sect and there are no risks involved (except wasting your time so to say). This wikipedia page is more about people who are curios about the system, maybe relatives of people meditating. What you do with what you wrote: you scare them to hell! Making them thing their dear ones are indeed involved in a illiberal, money oriented system. In this, yes you do a disservice to those 300.000 who peacefully practice the system and who are the silent majority who doesn't show on this page.

I've to say this place looks a bit like a court, where srcm has to defend itself from affirmations that are not completely or not absolutely true. In my country we have a basic principle when you go to court for some felony you are accused of, when the whole thing starts you are innnocent. This is the first step. Then the prosecutor etc. etc. has to DEMONSTRATE with due means that you are guilty. Here we start from: you are guilty, show me your good will if you want to convince me. So let's start saying the Chariji is the legitimate successor of Babuji. Because so many things have proved it in the years (for those who have observed) not just one letter. Then if somebody disagrees with it, please bring in some more facts. With due respect to Mr. Narayan, anybody can wake up and say, I dreamt Babuji and he told me I'm THE REAL Master ! Also one of the sons of Babuji declared himself the spiritual successor of Babuji, even though Babuji itself said succession cannot go from father to son.

Look at what Chariji has been doing in this years and decide for yourself, rather than speak with 2-3 angry person which show (as it is natural) their point of view.

As you can imagine, it is unlikely that a person would come here and start a discussion on his/her being gay in respect of master's statements. It is a very private thing, between them and master, let it be like that. Speaking about this with my wife I was reminded that a secretary that worked in a country for srcm for many years (maybe still now) is gay. And my friend from europe who is also gay, was made preceptor last year. And Master knew that when he made him preceptor. So please stop removing the statement about gays. There are gays in the mission, therefore it has the right to appear on the page.

About Chariji,

I've observed him for the past 9 years. If somebody offered me to be at this place....I wouldn't accept. Only if you have been around with him you know how though is to be where he is. First, He doesn't benefit from the money that go around in the mission (which go for the maintenance of the ashrams and so on) he doesn't have jacuzzis, cars etc. in the north of india, in february (it is a rather cold month in the mountains) he has an electrical heather in his room, when I asked why they didn't start the wooden nice stoven sent from the danes some people told me "well, he doesn't like to get trees cut". Second, being the head of the association he is he has to face all the s*#t that goes around with smile on the face. Though things which I don't want to mention but that one would not expect...but...so are men. And he his the target of discontenment, even if it comes from your private life, a public person is the easiest target to hit. This goes for all public persons. Once he said before me "in the mission there is only one permanent memeber, that is me. You all can leave the mission as you like" but he cannot, as this was his promise to Babuji. Believe me he doesn't like to be where he is. 2 years ago he wanted to spend more and more time in satkhol (in the mountains, away from everybody) but suddenly he felt compelled to go back to work among the people. Not for his sake, but for the mission's sake. To be where he is IS A BURDEN. Of course everybody thing is a great thing to be visible, and "famous". Try it, and then you'll tell me. And think also about this: no girls...no big cars...no big villas...i mean it is a bit boring :)))

About the "persona non grata" in France.

There has been a witch hunt in france after non catholic organizations. It's not for me to discuss it, it must have had its reasons. But the french consulate in Pondicherry granted him a 5 years Visa to avoid him to come each and every time, a kindness that was given from their side.

About his near people,

If you had followed the thing from near, you would also know that in a publich speech like the one about gays he said "It is very sad for me to see that the people nearest to me are the ones that don't apply the teachings of my Master". So this goes for the people around him.

Again, I don't want to slip into a discussion on Chariji good/bad. But I've an interest that wikipedia, which i appreciate very much, reflects a correct image of things.

Money

There is money in the mission, yes. Is that a bad thing ? There are ashrams to run and they need money. Not for comforts (absolutely not, my bones know well that) but for the normal maintenance of it. Is it wrong to have a place where people can gather ? The money that are sent for i.e. an earthquake go to the prime minister relief fund. Let's not insinuate false things....

If you are around the mission you see that there are no employees in the mission (expect 10 or 20 people working in manapakkam and satkhol in kitchen and so on) that might benefit of the money donated from the abhyasis. The books are open for consultation. Go to India and see for yourself those from Angola or Venezuela who got their trip paid, or the people from the village of Manapakkam that go to the ambulatory to get visits+drugs for free (i tried it myself in february). just to clear the way, in the ambulatory you are not given any leaflet about the meditation, nor you are invited to anything.......

I know there are people who are angry with srcm/chariji for this or that reason, but as said previously: there is no money you are asked to pay for the practice, nobody makes pressure on you to stay. I mean...if you stay in it is because you think is ok. No ?

Tell me what are the risks involved in being ann abhyasi with srcm.

Give away all your money ?

Both Babuji and Chariji sent the money back to persons who, trying to appear good before them, made donations which (according to Babuji and Chariji) where taking away money from the family->too much for the income of that person. I saw myself a police woman in Pujab handing over a big bunch of notes, Master kindly gave it back, it was February 2003. Yes there has been a split up within a french couple because of srcm. Is that enough to start a witch hunt on this subject ?

The thing about the panel evaluating...allow me to say sounds funny. Think about it....and you will agree that has no place in this.

It is my intention to keep the discussion civilized, as you say Don. We are touching some "inner cords" and it is normal that some heat up.

spaceman

--

Dear Don,

I am sorry. You did not answer any of my questions because i am sure you don't have any answers. This would be my last visit here.

As for your claims

1. Rev. Babuji has told that we cannot know the divine without a living Guru. So I am not sure about your claims of no one being between you and the divine however true it may be. As i said if you really believe what you say, you would not be doing negative propaganda about someone else's practice.

2. Again- you have started it - why you want the "truth" about things outside that do not concern you or your spiritual progress.

3. About concept of becoming one with the Nature - please continue your research, i am not sure what you are getting at. Master never asked you to eat like a buffalo or reproduce like an amoeba. He has just stated that we have to harmoniously exist with whatever is in nature and NOT become like that. Infact we are asked to first become a human-human from animal-human and then evolve to a divine existance by practice of meditation. A divine existance may represent everything that is there in the universe, there it feels no difference. That is a different thing.

4. About the nature and God - Master has clearly told that God is neither Male or female .I can show you many speeches. You have read something and understood something else... I am sorry about it.

5. Again, about the multi-dimensional, and multi-faceted perspective...Sahaj Marg is to do about practice and not about theory - you know it very well.So let people practice and judge for themselves.People who have practiced meditation under other systems for many years have felt peace in front of Chariji even the first time they visited him. People who has searched for a spiritual master have confirmed that first time they are seeing a practical Master. So your observations count very little for people as they can judge it for themseleves better that you can do.

Dear A

I was an abhyasi, like I was a catholic. I am not anymore. I now meditate and I have no one between Me and the DIVINE, the ONE. I am an adult now and I deal with the ONE as an adult. I am not worried about anyone following any path they chose. I believe in freedom and an educated population. I know some things about Sahaj Marg and I am a very good researcher, having done it for years...(see my User Page). I just want the truth not propaganda or defamation.

Statements by the leader of an institution is the "truth" about that institution. Chari, I am sure does not think his statement on Homosexuality, are "negative", and I'm sure he must want them out there as he is the one putting them out there. Let them exist as they are, without judgement, so others might see what he stands for and then decide wether to be part of his "group" or not.

As a Canadian, we do not take such stands on issues of choice, as homosecuality, claiming them to be "unnatural" (450 species of animals practice homosexuality). Sahaj Marg (Chari) says: become like Nature!!

OH! And, Nature is not Feminine and God Masculine as Chari teaches children. Now that is a point of view (and very presumptuous). I would not make that statement about God, but about Nature, being a Male, I can say that Nature has some male and some female in it, so chances are that God does also. Just a Hunch!. I would not put that in a book if I didn't want it "attributed" to me!!!

Some "dogmatic" churches take "dogmatic" stands on moral issues, thinking they have an god-inspired point of view, (not neutral), but spiritual groups usually do not "brand" others on moral issues. The usual stand by "progressive churches" is "we are all sinners in one way or the other, so let us not point at one another". Sort of like the "drinker", or the coffee or sugar addicts, pointing at the "smoker" so that no one looks at him/her. What one thinks is one way of gauging one's spirituality. Another way would be to have a person's spiritual competence "tested" by a cross-denominational panel as with the testing of Lalaji by his Sufi (Islam) Master. Anyone can claim to be anything they want. The proof is in the pudding or as words attributed to Christ: By their fruit, you shall know them!...or See how they Love. Are Abhyasis as yourself, loving? caring? compassionate?. Do you spend time helping others? That is a gauge of spirituality also according to most religions including Hinduism. Navel gazing and trying to build spiritual muscles (reaching the goal) is narcissistic and wallowing in "sensationalism" and as such is Materialistic.

Encyclopedias are for exposing a multi-dimensional, and multi-faceted look at the subject and cannnot remain narrow. There are other statements that some "preceptors" and abhyasis have put in that other abhyasis have taken out as if they were "negative" like the the statement in one of Charis book: My Master was a Master of Spirituality, I am a Master of Humanity. One follower put the statement in as making a point with me that the "current master makes not claim to be a spiritual master". And now, another poster (abhyasi I presume) wants it out. I read it by Chari. What can one say to please you? Except, keep smiling, and be loving, this will pass also...It's the journey that counts and not the "winning and losing". The truth will survive!!

You might want to meditate with a Master who is Loving and respectful of others so you might become Loving and respectful also. Let your true "spirituality" shine through! You are much better than that!

don...

-- Dear Don,

Some of your comments are quite hilarious. Anyway, i am not sure why you are involving yourself so much to bring out the 'truth' as you are putting it. Anyway, if you are a 'true' follower of Rev. Babuji as you believe you are , you wouldn't be doing all these things that you are doing. You would be sitting, meditating and finding the truth inside yourself rather than writing negative comments, criticizing and demanding proof. Don't tell us that you are 'worried' for so many people following SRCM now. If you are really worried you would be doing something constructive instead of repeatedly criticizing organizations or people about whom you know very little.

Also you are trying to influence people and trying to judge SRCM under Chariji for them. They should try the practice and judge it for themselves. What you have written is just your point of view which is not Neutral. '''If you believe in something then you have everyright to do so and continue. But what you are doing is to try and influence other people with some Prejudice that you can judge it better than they do which i think is not correct.''' SRCM, whether under Babuji or Chariji, it was for each person to start, practice and benefit out of their own willingness which i am sure you agree with. So, why waste your time and other's time.

A

-

Hi Spaceman...

Maybe without naming names, you could get your gay friends to come on-line and explain what they think of Chari's statements. Are they thinking of leaving? If what you say is true and they are "welcome and respected" by Chari, and that there is no "unnatural" or sinful inuendoes felt by them, I will get Lestat to come back with his "known family breakups" and see if we can come to an agreement. I have been part of a Church that does not "bless the Union" as it is a sin. That has been devastating on my friends. Thinking that the one they love, thinks they are "unnatural". Of course the weight of their happiness will be on you, as I have stood up for them to be treated as "natural" and with respect.

I have been an abhyasis under Babuji. I left when Chari took over. I read his condition and I left without making waves. That was 30 years ago. Now I feel a duty to my country, planet and fellow man to stand and try to "counter" the statements and the practices expounded by Sahaj Marg under Chari. It has become a "spiritualism" (mediums, channelling, dogmatic etc..) rather that spirituality. Some people are happy with that and I don't mind. I just want the statements in an encyclopedia to be the "truth and the whole truth" so as to protect the innocent and honest seachers. I agree that some will always be discontented but we are talking to very respected, and honorable people who are raising the alarm, no only the "psy's". Babuji warned Chari about accepting so many "psy's" and he did not listen obciously and now he's reaping his harvest. The ones I take seriously are those who have credible facts and can organize their thought in a coherent fashion. (at least better than me) KC Narayana was a chief officer for the State government, hardly a "flake"....I do not want to "attack or defame" the noble practice of pranahuti or Sahaj Marg, but I insist that the leaders and the preceptors, at least in an encyclopedia, be honest and truthful. On your site, you can say whatever you want. That is your PR.

I commend you for the work you do for the poor (it is about the poor that you gather money, I hope and not just to subsidize the wealthy with money from the "average")....Service to the poor, the sick and the marginalized, even according to Hinduism, should be the proof of spirituality, not just navel gazing.

Thank you for your other comments and your being "civilized". You are more spiritual that the other "abhyasis" and preceptors who have been here before...

I'm sure we can find the truth together in respect and love as the ONE has meant it to be... I will do more research and get back...re the documents...and the "gay" stand of Chari, etc...

God Bless you

-

Hi Don,

just a quick one to say that in my own family there is a gay couple, where one of them is a preceptor. Everybody who practices meditation here knows they live together, so there is no fear my friend. Don't ask me to give you names because this is not the appropriate place for that. You ask a lot of proofs, some of them are not in my hands (the letters of succession). I agree, every time one of the Masters died there has been a scism. What to do....people are free to believe in what they like and that is history, as you say. I've not say I'm unbiased, I'm saying THE ARTICLE must be unbiased. I must say, it is visible for me that you speak having read the books,listened to the audiotapes ecc. ecc. but you don't have the proof of the pudding if I can say that. There something missing, the personal feeling of it. Correct me if I am wrong. I can see there is a number of people disconteted with SRCM, Chariji and Sahaj Marg too. This is a fact. We must also state that if we count this is a minority compared to the 300.000 people who currently practice the method. And that everybody is FREE to leave and come back as THEY like. In the fench version of SRCM is written "psicological dependace" on the Master.....i'd say it's too much. Not all people who meditate are "spiritually evolved" after 25 years, and I'm pissed of myself at times too. I don't agree with some of the things some french abhyasis have done, and I know Chariji doesn't either. There are crazy people at times. When you don't charge money, let anybody come in, this is natural to happen. This doesn't mean that are all like that.

I see you put the name of "chief precptor". I mean...what is the reason for it?!? I can understand the other statemnets, but this one makes no sense.He doesn't have any role more special than other people, it is not relevant to SRCM in any special way. Maybe you read it somewhere and thought it was relevant?

The court ruling on "the French Government sect List", yes please, search it in the french speaking websites, it will be there.

The committees have always been ver transparent. I can see from this that you are not very acquainted with the procedures of SRCM. Nor you know probably that there are NO wages for the committees members. Nor that 5 ashrams are free of charge for anybody. That in Chennai there is an ambulatory free for people who meditate and people who don't meditate. That the new school has fees which cover not even half of the cost. That people from south america,Russia, east Europe, Africa get their flight tickets paid together with all their expenses for seminars or courses. I'd like to hear from you if you know all this. Thank you. It was meant to be quick. Sorry for getting so long.

S.

--

Hi all..and Spaceman...(new edit)

Your statement of "gays" being Abhyasis and preceptors is a POINT of View as none will come forward after Chari's statements....If Some can come forward, I will get in touch with the one who posted that statement and you can debate it with him and come to an agreement, as he knows the gays that have left or have been pressured to "adjust" and have had their family broken up.....Read his statements "Lestat" at the botton of the Discussion Page...let us get the truth.

You are not an unbiased editor...Yours is not a Neutral Point of View...

This is hardly a harassing conversation....If you ever see anything "defamatory" in any of my posts here, let me know. I will correct them immediately with an apology. This is an encyclopedia, not a PR site for SRCM. We want the truth, and the democratic truth..that is what Wikipedia is about..... Service is what I have done all my life and my contributions have been recognized officially. I do not want to be a force for anything but the truth, honesty, compassion, love etc...and here, I want harmony. We can attain that with a bit of "spirituality", not dogmatism.

The statement about the discontent about the Management is a verifiable fact, check out the blogs in Europe and North America. If it was only one, I would not put it in. But it's a "groundswell". Including an ex-preceptor and a ex-member of the Working Committee. "I don't get into the content on the blogs (that is Point of view) but the fact that there is discontentment is a FACT and it is not an emotional of disaffected few, but many who are trying to save the SRCM, not bring it down....you can't change that. They are questionning their "spiritual" advancemant and the Management of the SRCM....They have a right to and I have a right to record it as such...It is History...If you want a "arbitration" on it, I will agree...

If you want to do some good for the sake of "truth" for those who read this article, there is one way to solve the issue of "succession". Put the document on-line. We can add it at the bottom under "official documents" or something like that. I can get KC Narayana to get involved and confirm the authenticity of the document, if you want. You probably know that the Working committee rejected another document claiming succession. There is no dispute there.

Theres is a statement on the SRCM site that states that the donations collected can be re-assigned at the discretion of the President...If you can get it removed, we can get that section out of there. That is serious and verifiable...It is not a point of view or anything but the truth. With the "re-assignment of funds raised for disaster relief", I have chaired United Way committees for many years, I know that there are some goernment standards to guide what "Charities" can do. Most government insist that "re-assignment" statements be posted on the donation form. United Nations has standards also and I am verifying those standards for "re-assignment" of funds. You can understand why, I am sure. General Revenues or assigned donations can be used to build structures (Meditation centers, in this case), in the name of "making work" or assisting by setting up "infrastructures" in disaster areas. I will post my findings for your approval.

There is another document that you can post if you want "harmony". The court ruling on "the Frecn Government sect List" controversy. That will solve that issue in one easy way and make your society look good. Unless the wording does not show the society in a good light or does not resolve the issue. I trust that that is not the case. I am also researching that in France (legal system). As you knowl, that list is still out there and is spreading to other countries in Europe.

PS...Could you check out for me (or us), the lineage of the Masters of Lalaji's Master. I know it's in the Islam lineage of the Naqshbandi Order. Is it accepted by SRCM? If not, why not? They claim to have created the "transmission" heart to heart....Is that true according to you ?? Lalaji's story on SMRTI does not mention his master. It does mention that he used all sorts of spiritual methods with his disciples. I am researching it with our Muslim Brothers...and will amend as necessary...

I don't know why you don't want The "chief Preceptor" or other management positions to be listed in the Leadership... I thought it would be something to be proud of. I will not question it. Maybe it can be placed in another site. I can understand Mr Rao, or other officials (Santosh) not wanting to be part of a controversy....Do you want to include the name "guru in waiting" that Chari has named? Has he been elected or appointed? Has there been a "spirituality" test as with other Gurus of other lineage (see Lalaji)? You might want to suggest it to the Management committee. Just an idea. Are there any criteria? The Leaders of a Non Profit and Charitable Society should be public...For instance in Canada, there are 7 foreigners and 4 Canadians on the Board of Directors of SRCM Canada. That is a fact and is interesting. I have not included it in the article but if it is a pattern in all countries, it is worthy of addition into the article. It certainly would be interesting to "donors' and Government "revenue agencies" that. We are still in a democracy.

If there is anything else that we can co-operate on so as to get the truth out in a "democratic" atmosphere, let me know....The truth is what we want. We, after all, are the "spiritual" people of the world. The respect of spirituality is what we want from each other...Let us show it....

I will be here daily...I am disabled and this is one way that I can help Thank you for your co-operation...I will be watching...

don

---

Wikipedia:Blocking policy
Dear Don, I agree with J. Chariji works all the day except for a few minutes of rest, food and a few minutes of interaction / sittings with Abhyasis everyday. He is very inspirational and people have felt peace in his presence the first time they met him even if they have not started practicing meditation under Sahaj Marg. As for your allegations of commercialization, Sahaj Marg practice has been made so simple that it is available to any human being without any distinction.

I understand that there will always be some critics of any system and i have seen it everywhere and don't want this to be an argument.

gned comments, making deliberately misleading edits, harassment, excessive personal attacks, and inserting material that may be defamatory.

Biographies of living persons

Editors who repeatedly insert critical material into the biography of a living person (or its talk page), or into a section about a living person in another article (or its talk page), may be blocked under the disruption provision of this policy if, in the opinion of the blocking admin, the material is unsourced, or incorrectly sourced, and may constitute defamation.''

I would like to add that Wikipedia HAS TO BE impartial (All Wikipedia articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view ). If you go through the pages you created it is evident that there is "not impartiality" in what you wrote. So I believe it is right to correct those things that "excessive personal attacks / may costitute defamation". Somehow I believe we have both come to some acceptance of each others points of view. Some of the things you write show however that you sometime write of things you don't know such as the succession Chariji-Babuji. You know, the block is also valid for you.

-spaceman-

-

Hi Spaceman...

This is an encyclopedia, not a PR spot for Sahaj Marg. Your story is not the only one in this institutino. This is also not a biography of the Masters. The part that is autobiographical are not in question. The succession is debated by others in the Institution and is part of the History of the institution. Just like the history of othe religions include the shisms and statements attached to the leaders in the name of the institution. I am going to make some changes and if you don't agree with them. Clarify with me why and where your info comes from. Mine is from KC Narayana and is verifiable....

I see that you are also not "unbiased". If you know someone who is, and at arm's length, bring them into the discussion. The ISRC disputes the "spiritual representative" claim of Chari's Presidency. That is a historical fact.

Whether there are Gays or not in SRCM, is irrelevant. Chari has made a statement and that is history. They could be gone tomorrow if they can't stand the pressure.

This is not harrassment or anything but insisting that the truth be written in the Encyclopedia. If you want to PR, get your own site.... God bless and let us get to the truth..

don..

Hi J..

That is fine with me. I am sure that what we are both looking for in our silly way, is the truth and the whole truth with all its skews, biases and viewpoints. Being multi-lingual, and multi-cultural, it has been my non-dogmatic belief for some time now, and the digital information age has made it more obvious, that points of view or opinions do not the truth make. So the truth, in my view, being dynamic and forever changing, is probably to be found fleeting somewhere between all the points of view and opinions. At the time when books and the printed word were the media, the truth was much more two dimensional, with only the elite and the academics having a "point of view". It has now become multi-dimensional and although being more hued, and less "black and white", it is still a form of truth, if there is such a thing. I believe that being dynamic, there is then no such thing as an eternal truth, so religious wars should not be necessary once we (all of us) as a species learn that. Hopefully, we have just taken one step in that direction, thanks to you.

Should you want to send me your e-mail, I will do the same and we can communicate in private.

Bless you for your spiritual solution and your honour! You have given me hope for the carbon-based entity called Man and his Kind. ;-)) LOL

Don

Hi all (this is Don)

I am not malicious (how un-spiritual of you)...And I will not lead or mislead anyone, unlike some, but ask that everyone do their own research and read the Sahaj Marg Material before becoming "ensnared" and "dependant". But I insist that those who try and recruit followers, be honest and accurate with their material. Dependence is what Sahaj Marg books say. I only quote your books. That the Master will be responsible for the Abhyasis is in your books and I could show you the material if you would but read it....That the Master is not only the Master for spirituality but becomes the father, the mother, the doctor, the son....there is nothing that the Master does not take over in the abhysis life....That is in Sahaj Marg litterature also ...and is accurate...And it is not the God within...but as Chari say "a fellow"....or a person...the GURU.....

If you, on the other hand, make inuendoes and statements about "poisoning" maybe you can prove them, and try to support your arguments with logic or references to your "holy" books. For those of us who speak more than one language, it is not difficult to research in other part of the globe and learn from our Europeand brother's experience....They were targeted first by Sahaj Marg and Chari and his father, who also claimed to be a Master, after a few weeks meditation. That is in Chari's Autobiography. And not a lie...

There are many blog from Abhyasis in Europe that are concerned about the methods used by the Sahaj Marg Management team under Chari and his "brahmins"...

Inuendos and "attacks on the messenger" will not silence them either. Religions and those who profess to lead mankind to God must take responsibility for their words if not their actions. All the material I include is from Sahaj Marg Material and is not any more malicious than that. The fact that Sahaj Marg has become "evangelical and proselytizing is not my fault. That they are focussing on "growth" obvious to all who have been around for a while, and not the original philosphy of Lalaji and Babuji....

Be Spiritual and try "love" and respect....State the truth that is in your own books and I will be happy with that...But all of it, accurately and without omissions, and no "invertendo" or "doublespeak"...not only the material to "trap" the innocent people who are honestly searching for the Divine....

Don....(my real name)...

to all..

I have attempted to make this site more accurate encyclopedically and not so much like a "commercial" for the non-renunciate goals of the Shri Ram Chandra Mission, (accumulation of disciples and centres). Replacing 'renunciation' from the Raja Yoga system as it was practiced by the ascetics (and Mahatma Ghandi) with 'detachment', as in Sahaj Marg and most religions, leads to the accumulation of wealth and power in the material world and to 'indulgences' or 'favours' of the divine in the spiritual world, and degenerates into 'spiritual capitalism', much as the Catholic Church degenerated historically, bringing about the Reformation.

Those who want to practice this meditation, which does not empower the individual but makes them 'dependent' should know what Sahaj Marg is before they become a disciple, as claims are made by this group that it only takes one meditation to create a 'dependency' on the Master. This is confirmed by the Psychiatric Spirituality Association of which some preceptors and collaborators of research on 'abhyasis' are members. Babuji also warned of possible damage to the heart of disciples if this practice is not done properly. He also warned that children should not be in the room when meditation is taking place and should not be targeted as the group is doing with the school curriculum. All these warnings are now being ignored and 'stress'(blood pressure, heart disease, stroke) seems to be evident among disciples I see and know.

It is not a 'relaxing' atmosphere and the families of abhyasis in Europe and North America are suffering. Do your research first. Get involved later if you freely decide.

I am still responsible for my actions, thoughts and soul and spirit.... I don't eat a MacDonald's for food value and I don't bow to materialists for spirituality. The myth of 'forgiveness of sins' of the catholic church and the 'transmission' of materialist/capitalist guru's from their club in India or Mauritius (the Indian Ocean equivalent of the Cayman Islands tax haven) is not spirituality but a form of religion or idolatry. It is an egotistical claim that the universal law of 'cause and effect' can be by-passed by some who are 'favoured' or 'representatives' of the Creator. It satisfies some people who get mesmerized by Hollywood, reality TV or fiction, but spirituality is Reality inside with your ONE. It does not mean putting someone or something inside, it means relating to the spirit that is already inside everyone. If one has to put someone or something inside because there is a desert in there, then let them in their fear of being alone and in their 'dependency', be 'serfs' and 'living dead', and 'obedient' as instructed by their materialist and power-addicted idols. People in a secular liberal democracy are free and responsible for their thoughts, words and actions. People in a theocracy are either Masters/Lords or 'serfs' and someone else is always responsible for them. 'Spirituality' that comes from the outside is religion, ritual, cult, idolatry. I will go inside for my Spirituality and have a relationship with the ONE.....I will give the people of the planet a 'heads up' and hope they will have the courage to seek their own God or spirit and not bow to mere 'humans'. I will not force them or trick them to my way. No one has to be obedient to me. Let's make sense and have fun together. If we can't love one another, then let's at least not ask our 'serfs' to kill just to 'obey', as Sahaj Marg states as 'good'.

Don

dear don There has never been any real controversy as to succession. There have been a few interested people who wanted to occupy the place of a guru, though. Chariji was even poisoned by one of these people, and has been ill with the effects of arsenic, ever since. The document signed by Babuji is still in existence, and the witness to the signing of that document veryified its authenticity till his death. I have met others to whom Babuji revealed his representative. There is very little question regarding this issue, which has been made much of by those interested in skewing people's perceptions. J

Dear J

Thank you for the message. All the material I quote from is from Sahaj Marg litterature, video and audio tapes and other print or electronic media. The words in quotation are from the Sahaj Marg material or from other religious material (Raja yoga, Catholic Church, etc...) and not from me. There is a touch of irony there, but a gentle one.

Detachment: Renunciation, as was practiced by monks and ascetics of most religions in the past is not the same as detachment as is practiced by the gurus and/or the disciples of Sahaj Marg and most religions today. Detachment can, and most times does, include an aspect of accumulation, renunciation does not. In other words, one cannot accumulate material and then claim to be detached and spiritual at the same time. The act of accumulation takes time and effort and as such, involves samskaras. As one is accumulating material, or spiritual credits, one is not being spiritual, but is self involved. Spirituality, as the christian 'grace', cannot be accumulated, banked, or done to us by others who claim to have more than us. It is an experience with the 'spirit', not with a guru or a group. Christ (loose quote): 'The road to perdition is wide and many go with you. The road to salvation is narrow and you go alone'.

Spirituality is an interior journey that we experience and must let go so as not to become attached and dependent on the experience, and hence egotistical, or pompous. Then we will try and sell it to, or 'save' others. The law of cause and effect will not be by-passed, even by the gurus of Sahaj Marg. That would not be just. One cannot also accumulate spiritual credits, through meditation or other spiritual or physical pracitices or rituals, such as meditating on the birthdays of the gurus, or reading all the material over and over, so as to be liberated from birth and rebirth. The 'confessing of sins' and the 'indulgences' of the Roman Catholic Church is just that kind of belief and does not make spiritual sense and is not theologically just.

With the renunciation of the Raja Yoga of the past, one had to constantly act in renunciation by ridding onself of the material attachments which keeps one on the material plane. Detachment, as practiced by the gurus of Sahaj Marg, makes Sahaj Marg the MacDonald's of spirituality, where all is done for the disciple by the Master and is not the historic Raja Yoga of the past. Most major religions, including Hiduism, state that service to humanity and specially to the sick, the poor, and the oppressed and marginalized is the guage of the spirituality of a religion or movement. To simply sit in front of the proxy of a person of questionable spirituality, morality or ethics and being transmitted to by his/her Master in India (at the same time) is not a service to humanity. It is a comfort or an attachment or a dependency for the disciple and as such, will keep one in the birth and rebirth cycle. Some women in India, using the communication media, are starting to get off their knees and exposing that perverse patriarchal and caste-driven bastardization of Raja Yoga.

Idolatry

I noticed that you took out the reference to idolatry as mentionned in the litterature. I enclose it here for your comment before I change it back. If it is in the litterature, you cannot hide from it. You can take your argements with the person who wrote it. This is not a PR site for Sahaj Marg but an encyclopedia, dedicated to truth, we hope.

From Salient Features of Sahaj Marg (SMRI Series 3) Page 52-53

Idol Worship;

Sahaj Marg has nowhere said temple worship is wrong, nor does Master expressly forbid idol worship. ....

To other abhyasis, the preceptor has become such an idol. I believe that any abhyasi who says, "my preceptor" when talking about the preceptor who is serving him has fallen into this form of idol worship. Here it is the preceptor who has been transformed into an idol, or idolised. Here again the Master may be in the background, but is that Master's rightful place? When Master says that every gods are fuctionaries of Nature, and are there to serve, and not to be served, can we deify preceptors and relatives in this way?

I must say that preceptors generally do not fall into this error. But abhyasis idolize them to the extent of ascribing to them the credit which should go to the Master. Where our credit is given, there goes our gratitude and this is followed by our love. So, wrongly ascribed credit can be disastrous in leading to the creation of an idol for us. So Master's message is quite clear. All credit goes to our Master. When we give credit where it is not due, that too is a form of idol worship. We should beware of falling into such errors.......

To Whom is the Mission Prayer ritual Addressed and Why Babuji himself has written that ultimately He (pointing upwards) is the real Master. . . and all the human Masters who come on this world, on this earth, are His representatives. If that is so, then why do we address the prayer, "Oh, Master" and not "Oh, God". Now today I am giving you the answer for that. Because God, it is a living God who is before you in the form of the Master ...this is an embodied flesh-and-blood divinity. . . who can understand our needs; who can understand our temperaments; who can sympathize with us, being human himself; who can accept our failings, perhaps having failed himself in some way. ..

Heart of the Lion (Book)...Page 14

....So I repeat, the Guru is the only friend. In fact, I have said this so often, that in the Sufi philosophy, the Guru is called Friend. "The Friend is coming". Because he is the only fellow who can give his life for you. He is the only fellow, therefore, to whom you must hand over totally, a Power of Attorney....."Do with me as you think I deserve to be done with. Kick me when I have to be kicked.  Beat me when I have to be beaten.  Curse me when I have to be cursed.  But make of me what you think I should be eventually, because only you can do it."

So once more I say this in all humility....if you must have a Master, find a fellow who is capable of, you know, throwing you around, beating you up, cutting you to pieces. Remember Parushurama's father and the stern test that young boy had to make for obedience...."Kill your Mother"...."Yes"... He pulled out the sword and cut off her head. He said, "I am pleased with you my son. Ask for anything you want." He said, "I want my mother alive." And He said, "So be it." and she got up and walked off. The Guru is the Master, when you say of destiny, it means life and death. He must be the Master of your life as he must be the Master of your death.

Maxim 2...(Spiritual cloning ritual) Now for the form of prayer which may ensure the greatest good to everyone. I may say that one should be brought to the same state of mind which is usually developed at the time of prayer. The feeling that he as a true servant approaches the great Master in the humble capacity of an insignificant beggar must be engrossed upon his mind. He may put up everything before his Master, resigning himself completely to His will. In other words he may assume his real form after surrendering everything to the Master. He should withdraw himself from all sides and turn completely towards Him losing all worldly charms. The remembrance of everything should merge into the remembrance of One -- the Ultimate, resounding all through in every particle of his being. This may be known as complete annihilation of self. If one develops in this state, in my view he should be considered as an embodiment of prayer. Every thought of his will be synonymous with that of the Master. He will never turn towards anything that is against the Divine will. His mind will always be directed towards that which is the Master's command.

Ignorance is Bliss.... From "Salient features of Sahaj Marg" Series 2 (Page 20)

The fact of unknowing, which Lalaji expressed so simply- Ignorance is Bliss. When there is a fire and I don't know that there is a fire, I am comparatively happier than if I know there is a fire.....

Rituals Next time you get together to meditate, open your eyes and think: Is this a ritual that we repeat every time we get together? Are we asked to get together at "ritualistic" times? Are other religions, or cultural holidays (Holy Days), being usurped for our 'meditations' thereby dividing the abhyasis from their family, friends, religious or cultural duties and rituals? Then you will see what I mean. Sahaj Marg is full of Rituals that have nothing to do with spirituality. (candles, incense, membership cards, dress, etc..)

Obedience I aree with you that obedience is acceptable but not to the point of "killing one's mother" to obey anyone as in Page 46 of The Heart of the Lion. One cannot reach morality by being immoral. The act of killing will not set one free, but will create a dependency on the one who asks one to "surrender" one's ability to decide in the interest of someone else beside the guru. The mother is not a puppet without feelings. It is a living thing and the allegory does not inspire fredom of thought or anything except bling obediece as it is often refered to in Sahaj Marg litterature. A truly spiritual person does not obey to the point of accepting to commit a crime so as to get to God. A truly spiritual guru does not demand that obedience and love for himself at the cost of love for the family or the friends. That has the smacking of a cult of an individual with a large ego. A truly spiritual person would ask his disciples to love and respect the family and not draw all the love of his disciples to himself, leaving the family as a shell of duty with a "living dead" at the centre with there used to be the heart of a loving person.

Your piano player allegory is good. But no musician worth his salt bacomes a clone of another. Bach is Bach, Glen Gould is Bach plus Glen Gould. So that music is alive and not "living dead". The reason spirituality cannot be obedient is because the journey of one is not the journey of the other. Our spiritual diversity is what protects us from being obedient to bad Masters. As Babuji used to say: It is better to have no Master than to have a bad one. I agree with that. Obedience means that my judgement has been put on hold and I have place my judgement in someone else's hands. That is more dangerous that not having a guru and deciding with the ONE on the inside, not outside with a person in India or his appointees. The old debate of wether the priest, as a sinner himself, can forgive the sins of another sinner, has already taken place in our culture. We now are not religious but "spiritual", meaning we go inside and are not "obedient". Make sense with me, do not command me. Freedom from responsibility is slavery, not responsibility. They are accurate to call abhyasis 'serfs'

Freedom....(responsibility) From "Salient Features of Sahaj Marg" Series 2 (page 26)....

In examining this idea of freedom, we have been led to the conclusion that what we have thought of as freedom is nothing but a state of surrender to the Master's will. We have not lost freedom in the sense that we have been deprived of it. We have voluntarily, whole-heartedly and devotedly surrendered it to the Master of our Soul. To those who are fortunate enough to arrive at this stage, the Master is no longer a guide for spirituality alone. He has now become the Master of one's life in all it's aspects of existence. He becomes the father, the mother, the son, the teacher, the doctor, in fact, there is no role that He does not play in the abhyasi's life. He has taken total charge of the abhyasi. So we see that only our surrendering to Him can bring about a state where He can take total charge of us!

Analysing this further we find, surprisingly, that a great and unimaginable freedom is now confered on the abhyasi. It is the freedom from freedom itself. It is the freedom of invulnerability. We may even say that it is the freedom of invincibility. We are no longer answerable for our actions. We merely obey. The person who issues the orders, the Master, assumes complete responsibility for anything we do. We are no longer vulnerable to the world. Therefore, a great calm, a great freedom comes to us. Out of our apparent loss of previous freedom- largely illusory as we have seen- we now receive a divine gift, the true freedom of a spiritual state, a real freedom which some saints have called "The Great Liberation".

Childrens school curriculum..

Please open the school curriculum and take out the section that talk about encouraging the child to stand against his family and relatives in war, as Arjuna did. War and killing is not OK, and not spiritual. It certainly is religious. ....And the section about God being a Man, Gopal, who comes and helps the child to cross the dangerous forest. To suggest that a man, dressed as a guru, is God himself (male again), is dangerous at a time when children logic is not formed and myth and reason are acting together. Children are trusting of authority so do not make them trusting of "strangers" to the point of blindly obeying and following anyone who claims to be a "teacher". The Claim in the curriculum that all teachers represent God is just not smart, but dangerous, and not spiritual.

To claim that the Guru of Sahaj Marg lives a simple life, Sahaj Marg would have to get out of castle buying and real estate deals in the millions. Babuji was simple and spiritual. Chari is not. Let us not confuse the two as the material seem to want to do. Sahaj Marg has been taken over from the philosophers and the spiritualists and is now in the hands of businessmen. You can change that or tell the truth about it, or leave it. Read Varadachari on his web site about his fears for Sahaj Marg.

Succession...

''Talk at Satkhol Jan 29, 2001 (transcribed from Video)

Q : Master, the desire to reach the goal, you cannot call it a desire to reach the goal ? R : One man, one time. Think, think ! We have got into too much of these stereotypes,

Q : Of what? R : Stereotypes, that insulin is necessary for diabetes, vaccine for this, something for that.

(Speaking with the 2 girls) We have to do it. See, suppose you feed me, you have given away one meal for which you should have worked for years. So, a man can give, or a human being gives only by taking somebody’s else share.

12:30 p.m. On why a lady cannot be a Master Babuji said that a Master of that caliber gets orders from above, and their work includes that of destruction. A woman is not capable of such destruction. All this talk about equality between men and women the more they talk about something, the less they will get it.''

Having read all of Ram Chandra's written material, I saw some change in his philosophy and his theology near the end of his life.

These are the items of succession that I meant. Women will not be Masters in Sahaj Marg any more than women will not be priests in the catholic church. Maybe soon women will get off their knees.

I agree that Chari has a document, but that only confirms what I feel in my heart. I always thought, and still do, that to be a Master, one has to not want to be a Master. Wanting to be a guru is a personal and selfish desire. It reflects an ego and as such, does not lead to the ONE but to the egotistical individual. It will attract egotistical individuals as disciples and they will also want to be gurus to the point of killing one another for spirituality. Or maybe we will call this a religion.

Spirituality unites. Religion divides.

May you be blessed by the ONE that UNITES. Don

Don Well, you obviously have some firm convictions, and I detect that you may have had personal experience with both Babuji and Chari. I have had some time with Chari, and have never seen any evidence of anything other than simplicity. He works all day giving sittings, and at his computer. He takes 3 20 minute breaks to spend with abhyasis, and he takes meals. What do you expect of him? Perhaps he buys expensive lands, but not to live in. He lives in a three-room house, with not even any pictures on the walls, except for one of his master. More later...J

Dear J

I can see that you are not an "unbiased" or "neutral" author also. I, as a child of the ONE, am responsible for what I say and do, and I hope that you and the Masters of Sahaj Marg are also, and that you have not surrendered all responsibility and integrity to someone else. I am, in my little way, trying to make all religions and others who claim to be "representatives of the ONE" or even "flesh and blood embodiement" of the ONE, responsible for the words that they write and speak. One can't just say, "I forgive your sins" or "I transmit" to you and then go on your way without responsibility. I understand that logic and reason is a difficult tol to use when one is "preferred" of the Divine and that philosophy (logic and reason) is usually thrown out the window when 'obedience' enters the conversation, but even engineers with limited language skills, have to be accountable for their words and actions. Claims of spirituality do not a spiritual person make. "By their fruit you shall know them". (Bible)

Do they unite or divide? Ram Chandra said that religion divides, spirituality unites. I see much division and materialism, and power struggles, and shisms around Sahaj Marg leadership, and abhyasis or serfs families, and I do not attach it to Ram Chandra but to Chari. when and if Sahaj Marg casts off it's material shroud, we might see it shine once again. It might even open it's eyes and see the plight of the sick, the poor, and the starving children in its own country at the very least, and the rest of the world if it is really spiritual.

Sell the castles and commercial real estate, help the starving child, the needy, the poor, not just educate the children of the wealthy with a questionable 'value-based' curriculum. I understand and apprecialte the economic nationalism of the 'crusaders' of the Indian diaspora, and the need for children to be able to wage war against relatives and family, in a region where religious wars go on ad infinitum, but it is not spirituality. That's what I would have Shri Ram Chandra Mission, the Roman Catholic Church and other religions do. God does not dwell in the Ivory Towers of religion, nationalism, imperialism and materialism. Time to let God out of the closet (temples), and away from the control of the so-called "enlightened".

You are blessed of the ONE...Bless others (not only the rich, but the poor), if not with your time, then with your money. The temples and busts (idols) to yourselves or your masters can wait. If I build an statue (bust) of my idol it is becaue I want a bust built to me when I'm dead and gone. That is idolatry and very "ritual". Next you'll be bowing and kneeling unknowingly and obediently to it. That is why Sahaj Marg has become non-renunciate and uses "detachment", as most religions. Although surrounded by wealth, most religions claim no ownership of the material, make vows of poverty, but simply control the wealth, relying on intellectual tricks as "surrender" to the point of becoming "living dead", and blind obedience, which is dogma, and not logic and reason. That will eventually divide, even to killing and war. There is a cost to idolatry. Ah! The simplicity of Castles and Material and Power!

May you be blessed by the ONE and may you forgive my preaching! It's just my "culture".

Don

Hi (whoever you are...Please sign your message;)

I agree with most of what you say as that is the good or "positive" side of the divisiveness of Sahaj Marg teachings, the part no one has any problem with. Then there is the other side that you, the abhyasis are to "obey without thinking", because if you think about it, and criticise it, you are not a good disciple: What the present Management of Shri Ram Chandra Mission says and does. That is what the friends and families of the abhyasis see and feel as the love, time and money goes out of the relationship sucked out of the needs of the families and societies of the aspirants and is given obediently for the material benefits and comforts of a few in India. (ie castles, commercial property, private schools, travel and hospitality funds, etc.) If you could educate Chari to "think, think, think, as a spiritual person and not as an engineer, and improve his language skills (logic), and to say and do the same spiritual things as the other spiritual Masters of Sahaj Marg, and live up to it, Sahaj Marg would not be so divisive to the families of the "adept"...

The problem is not Sahaj Marg but is the Brahmin management of the Shri Ram Chandra Mission. The spiritual level is too low and the material level too high. It corrupts the heart of the spiritual seekers and divides the families and societies of those who get snared in the "web" of the current "cabale"....The abhyasis I see are not loving, not compassionate, are not involved in their communities (as Chari is), are self involved, arrogant, nacissistic, elitist, and becoming very "dense" and unaware to the point of danger. ie (accidents-car and home, not dealing with illness and disease but being very Jehova Witness-like, (Chari will save me!, I can just continue doing what I do cause I'm right"...not reasonable or logical but "right"). Do you hear the repeating of Chari in that statement?

Next time you get together with the group...Check out how many have "life style" health problems that have to do with stress and specifically with the heart and blood system, such as heart attack, blood pressure, stroke, or states such as desperate, depressed, divorce, seperation, etc...Babuji warned about those problems arising if the Master was not careful...You cannot "tansmit" grossness to a heart and not have health problems....do your own research...you might be surprised.

In the teachings of Lalaji, see SMRTI under Masters and Lalaji...

"Do not purchase a new thing if you can manage to carry on with your old belongings." He was not against earning money by honest means, but insisted upon spending it on others.

According to him, the slave of women and a greedy person could never perform acts of paramarth.

Some of them were directed to pursue Surat — Shabda Yoga; others were asked to meditate on their heart; while, Mantra Japa was prescribed to some; and the rest were simply asked to perform certain Karmas.

He employed different methods for training different persons. Sometimes he asked them to meditate on any person or object which they like most. He believed in religious books of all dharmas and respected all the saints. His motto was to follow the same dharma in which one was born (swa dharme nidhanam shreyah, para dharmo bhayavahaha — Gita).

For removing various complexities of the heart, Lalaji Saheb asked the Satsanghis to make friends of their enemies and the persons whom they dreaded, and directed them not to do to others which they themselves did not wish to be done by. He considered love to be the greatest tapas.

Lalaji was very particular regarding conduct. He announced in unambiguous terms that realisation of self was not possible without adhering to the standard moral code of conduct. He even forbade association and satsangh with immoral persons. In unequivocal terms he directed that company should be kept only with those persons whose hearts are brimming with love for God, and with those who could influence others with it.

Can you see where Sahaj Marg under Chari is not what Lalaji was talking about.... I certainly can...and that is why I say, if one could get an institution to live up to the teachings of their highest morality advocates, the world would be a better place...If Christian lived like Christ, would the Catholic Church be so wealthy? I don't think so....

Sahaj Marg is becoming a religion with all the trappings of Hinduism and Christianity, including its idolatry. It's a shame, the original Masters are so "right on" and the teachings become corrupt at the first or second generation as with Christianity. Making it easy for the masses is what Varadachari called the "commecialization" of Sahaj Marg and others have called its "MacDonald-ization"

Thank you for you thoughtful input..and may the same ONE that we both believe in bless you....

don

Gay/Lesbian Ban in Sahaj Marg
Just wanted to give you all a heads up on the new policies of the Mission. The don't-ask-don't-tell situation that persisted for years is now cleared up. The Mission is no longer tolerating gays and lesbians, who are faced with one option - get married to a partner of the opposite sex, or leave. Please visit their official website and look under Recent Speeches. The Mission is now officially homophobic. Many gay families have been destroyed due to their policies, as we all know but care not to mention, but this blatant rule-making is a bit bizarre, if you ask me.

Lestat

Hi Lestat

Thanks for the "heads up"....I did not know...I will respect your edit. Could you direct me to the specific section of the specific speech and by whom in SRCM so I may quote from it myself Alink would be nice......

Thanks..

Don

Here is the article from his latest speech :

Its available at : http://www.srcm.org/literature/recent.speeches/060120_Malaysia.jsp

"So what wonders can it do if this is on a global scale? That is why Sahaj Marg is performing marriages—no questions asked, except whether you are old enough to get married, and whether you are a man and a woman. Unlike the churches in the world, we don’t perform same-sex marriages. That is unnatural. God did not intend it to be thus. Please excuse me, it is a personal comment, it is not Sahaj Marg. But there are things, as Babuji Maharaj said, “If God did not want two sexes, he could have as well created one and seen that the world propagated by itself.” There are unicellular organisms called amoeba which just split when they want. No problems of sex, no problems of love and hate, no problems of, shall we say, illegitimate babies, no need for Viagra. You know, when it is big enough it just splits and there are two. “Behold, there was one and now there are two,” says the Lord. So God could have done anything he wanted, you see. Why two sexes? Not so that one sex should marry among themselves, isn’t it? So, what the church may allow, I don’t have to condone or accept. To me, it is a very blatant misuse of so-called privileges of the human being, fundamental rights, et cetera. Of course, if you claim it is your fundamental right to go the dogs, so be it! Even God cannot stop it. That is not His weakness; that is His strength that he gives us the liberty to do what we will. It like a boxing father, heavyweight champion, allowing his pugnacious teenagers to pummel away at him. He just laughs, “Yeah, go on, son. Come on, one more.” And the pugnacious son thinks he is going to knock his father out and suddenly, wham, you know. The son is at the corner of the room and the mother is wailing away: “How can you do it to my son?” "

I think the above is pretty self explanatory.

Lestat

Hi Lestat...

Thanks for the clarification....Clear as mud...Real loving these "spiritual" Gurus eh? Maybe we can set up a Dynamic Guru Certification Program, sort of like a "direct democracy" gross national happiness process where if the guru's rating goes below 50% for x length of time, He cannot claim to be a Guru .... We need Gross National Happiness "Direct Democracy" for rating Doctors, Teachers, Statesmen, bureaucrats, etc...We already have it with industrial capitalism ( we vote with our dollar) but not with cartel capitalism yet....

Thanks for the heads up...Information will set us free, if the technology remains "free".

don....

Hi 87.48.115.147

If you want to make changes, communicate with me and we can discuss it...

don

Samskara
I just would like to comment on the line at the top: >"erase samskaras" (which is about the same thing). If the priest can't take away sins, then neither can Chari erase Samskaras as he

Please read the official documents of course but what I understand is that these are just brain impressions or tendencies and not necessarily evil but they can become obstacles. A person may be a naturally good salesman but may be forced to become an accountant or programmer, or vice versa or whatever. If fr example your tendency is to help people, but you find out a certain person is a mass murderer, you would have to control your tendency (or brain impression). Addiction is a reinforced brain impression. Erasing samskaras or brain impressions would obviously be beneficial. --Jondel 00:08, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Let's get this page back on track
All,

I have had nearly 30 years of exposure to SRCM and it's offshoots. While I no longer practice Sahaj Marg, I do feel it is important for an impartial, historical resource here for existing abhyasis, those looking to leave the mission and those considering joining alike.

To those in the mission:

WikiPedia is not here to be an advertisement to lure abhyasis in. It is a living historical account. If history includes controversial spits after the death of each Master, so be it.

To those in Opposition to SRCM:

This should not be a forum for making accusations. Let's keep infomation here factual and an accurate historical account.

I propose that we strive for the following:

1. Refrain from tagging this site as NPOV simply because the historical data is not desireable to your personal agenda.

2. Cooperate to maintain an accurate and dispassionate living history of Sahaj Marg, its history and offshoots.

3. Refrain from using this as a forum for personal agendas and opinions and stick to the facts.

A robust list of links can provide the means to direct people to blogs with complementary and opposing views on SRCM as well as informational sites for related offshoot organizations. Lets agree that by keeping these links on this page, it will satisfy the free speech rights of those on all sides.

With that said, I have an out of circulation book in Hindi with lots of historical data on Lalaji and his brother. I'd be happy to get it, or copies of it, to someone who might be interested in getting historical data from it for this or possibly another page dedicated to Lalaji.

Can we have a truce here and get back to something informational and accurate?

Michael