Talk:Sahaj Marg/Archive 2

Christian invitation to http://poxysrcm.blogspot.com/
Christian invitation to http://poxysrcm.blogspot.com/

I invite the reader to go to http://poxysrcm.blogspot.com/ and read the text newly published in part 5.

Christian

Back to the Primary Point of this WikiPedia Page
Dear Friends,

Many of us who are trying to push the truthful facts here continue to be ridiculed and discredited by those in the SRCM organization on this discussion page. I will yet again (I believe for the third time) RESTATE the primary point being made by many of us, in an effort to get at least some agreement before I go ahead and modify the page with a personally edited history of Sahaj Marg and the organizations that promote it.

We have seen the comments of active members of teh SRCM that has confirmed that many who the practice of Sahaj Marg under the Shri Ram Chandra Mission believe that their unquestioning loyalty to the organization is part of the requirement of being a devoted practicant of Sahaj Marg under that organization- and attacking the credibility of anyone who does question the motivations of the organization is considered a righteous endevour.

Discussion is not getting any consensus so I will simply propose the following addition to the SRCM WikiPedia page under the heading of "History". All that I have written here is factual with the exception of comments that are specifically identified as speculation:

In 1983 when Parthasarthi Rajagopalachari (Chari) took over the position of President of the Shri Ram Chandra Mission as specified by its founder Ram Chandra (Babuji) As a result a new agenda for growth was established. Chari took the initiative to transform the Mission from a loosely structured organization established to make the system of meditation available to the public, into a sacred institution that required the unquestioning loyalty and devotion of its members. This new push to create an organization with a life of its own, caused many of the core principles of Sahaj Marg to be compromized or over ridden. While many senior diciples had already defected due to their unwillingness to follow Chari for what ever personal reasons, this new organizational push and the percieved compromize of the principles that resulted, caused many others, who initially accepted Chari as the new president of the Mission, to leave and establish other organizations, such as the ISRC, or disassociate themselves all together from the Sahaj Marg practice. Those who left were ridiculed and discredited as people who had little faith, unwilling to accept the new President, or as people of questionable behavior or morals (see Seekers comments on this in this discussion which confirm this thinking).

By 2006 this new organizational shift had evolved to the point such that, many who remained in the organization over the years, began to question the motives of the organization as it proceeded to push for donation requirements of its western members, purchase of property throughout Europe and India, and insist on a constant growth in numbers of its members even at the expense of maintaining the purity of the original principles and in spite of the lack of spiritual growth if its existing members. By 2006. in Europe, specifically France and Switzerland, circumstances in the various centers, caused a growing group of senior members to question the purpose of these changes and explore the possibilities of practicing Sahaj Marg outside the influence of the Shri Ram Chandra Mission. Some experimented with the ISRC, set up by KC Naryanan as an alternative organization for the promotion of Sahaj Marg, while others chose to leave all together and explore other possibilites.

Many senior members of the organization have privately speculated, based on commentary by Babuji and Chariji, that Babuji established the Shri Ram Chandra Mission to meet the needs of humanity at some point in the future. When confronted directly about the circumstances this new Mission agenda has created, Chari's common reply is that he is "only following the instructions of his Master". If this speculation is true, this would explain much of Chariji's initiatives since 1983 and his response when questioned about them.

This, I believe accurately states the history to date. I will leave this here for commentary (or to be deleted and pushed to history) before I update the page with this information.

Regards,

Michael

Don's comments on Michael's concensus attempt
I agree with most of what you state. On the points that I feel you are being too kind, I will abstain from commenting for the sake of reaching a concensus. This should in the History section. WE should try and reach a concensus on the Teachings section also... Good first draft....

4d-Don

Christian's Response to Michael consensus proposal
"know thyself and you will know the others"

Michael,

I agree with you, but I agree with Don too. I did not enter into that previously though it has appeared recurrently in your messages, but I think that it is apropriate to say now: you may still have your guru Chari in your heart. As I said to Seeker, I say to you, if this is true, this softens your factual judgement. Maybe are you doubting of your position, if you think that Chari may be correct to do what he does.

There are fundamental spiritual principles, and the end doesn't justify the means. You have seen enough by yourself, when you were deep into the inner circle, that the SRCM is ruled by a mafia, and which goal they are after. Furthermore, Chari is just eager to leave a name. Therefore, he has no time to loose, that is his agenda. You probably know that in order to achieve his aim, he does not hesitate to betray people.

These stories about the future need of humanity may be true, why not? Let's just take a look at that possibility, for we do not know what the turn of history can be tomorrow. Why do we have to work in such a hurry that the teaching itself is degraded? Don't you think that the efforts should be both on the spiritual training AND the development of a system that makes this training available to all? Isn't the training, the central point? Without training, there would have been no masters: no Chari, no Babuji, no Lalaji.

The only possibility to have such a hurry is that a catsatrophy is coming soon. Let's just imagine the end of the globalization. But then, if the system is so centralised, and with so few evolved people around the world to take on the training of others, how can we hope that the SRCM will achieve its initial aim in a divided humanity? If it doesn't achieve it today, in good conditions for the system to work, how could it achieve it in adverse conditions?

Michael, all we have there is the result of an insane power game. This is just very human. Humans playing with the spiritual fire of god. So impossible, it seems, but facts are there to be seen, and let's just continue to have a look at them.

Christian

Christian Comments on Don's last post
I requote:

"So once more I say this in all humility..." Ah! Ah! Ah!

"if you must have a Master, find a fellow who is capable of, you know, throwing you around, beating you up, cutting you to pieces." No need to have a master for that, everybody can do it to someone else. That sounds a bit sadomasochist.

"Remember Parushurama's father and the stern test that young boy had to make for obedience...."Kill your Mother"...."Yes"... He pulled out the sword and cut off her head. He said, "I am pleased with you my son. Ask for anything you want."" That is insane, I am sorry to say, but it cannot be a teaching.

"He said, "I want my mother alive." And He said, "So be it." and she got up and walked off." What an alteration of the reality to put such ideas in the mind of people. There are no such things as deads coming back to life. When that happens, it is because people were engaged in the process of death, but were still alive. I see only power, and a delirium regarding death. A delirium because human power fails to control it, except with imagination. One who fears dead so much needs that delirium to protect himself from anxiety. Nevertheless, everybody dies, always.

"The Guru is the Guru, is the Master, when you say of destiny, it means life and death. He must be the Master of your life as he must be the Master of your death." Yes, and for that he has to be lovable first.

These ideas are not toxic ? Where is love or friendliness ? I see only tyrany and totalitarism. Everything in this quotation is absolutism, but the wrong way.

Christian

Dead coming to life
>ideas in the mind of people. There are no such things as deads coming back to life. When that happens, it is because people were engaged

Greetings to Christians, I can't help but comment. In Chistianity, Elijah raised a child back to life, Jesus rose from the Dead, Paul raised another woman (Dorcas?) who fell off a window .In Hinduism, in Autobiography of Yogi Swami Yukteswar rose from the dead.--Jondel 11:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Don's comments
Hi all...

Thank you for your analysis, doctor. It is what I thought also, but I am not qualified as you are. Please continue giving your analysis on any quotes from Sahaj Marg and comments....

You gotta laugh cause its not funny!

4d-Don

For the Sake of Concensus (contentious points
For the Sake of Concensus

I agree with you, Jondel. Wether it is true of not what Christ did and what for, is not the point. The point is that Christians believe it to be true and we (including Chari) should respect that. Specially groups who claim to be "non-sectarian". To call Christ "not wise" is not in the "live and let live" tradition of most religions and it certainly is not in the "We are all ONE" of "spirituality. If Sahaj Marg is goint to Criticize other religions, it should be included in the Teachings section of the article as the preceptors and the abhyasis will, as obedient servants, continue this education. The "non-sectarian" claim should not be put in or it should read: Sahaj Marg claims to be "non-sectarian", but the current Guru ...etc....these are "sectarian statements" and disrespectful ones at that.  But we don't have to put that in (just to be kind).

There is also this statement in Sahaj Sandesh which is just not true and certainly shows another disrespect for the worship rituals of other religions. Sahaj Marg has no rituals or Philosophy according to Chari and other preceptors.

Is Sahaj Marg just another Hindu sect? they quote from the Hindu scriptures a lot....They claim to be "non-sectarian" and not a religion, but a modified Raja Yoga. Where is the modification. I hear more Hindu Scriptures than Sufi or Raja Yoga....the bolds are mine. The Gita is not Sahaj Marg.

Sahaj Sandesh No.: 2005.31 - Wednesday, June 22, 2005

ABHYASI'S QUESTION:"..... why do I have to give up my existing religious practices....."

MASTER'S ANSWER: "All religious practice involve the worship of God as being outside us. It is called Bahya Upachara in Sanskrit. Spirituality puts God where HE really is - inside the human heart, and indeed at the heart of every created thing, as Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita. One cannot mix the two. In the Vedas Murthy Pooja is called the lowest form of worship. Mantra is only a way of pleasing the mind, and bhajans please the senses, while giving the illusion of being a form of worship. I trust that this will be satisfactory. If people have more questions, they should be encouraged to read the Gita slowly, and try to understand it. Love to all."

That information should be in the teachings on the Main Article. Or it should be withdrawn. (Which it won't)...So for the sake of the truth, we have to be journalistic and say it from a NPOV and I'll live with it.

Or This one:

That is now teaching to kids a theology that really sounds like a "dogma". Where is that in Raja Yoga. If one has to obey the Guru in everything, it sets up our women for descrimination. The first part can be a "sectarian" dogma. The second part is just Wrong. Nature is Male, female, other no gendre and all gendre. This should also be in the teachings as it is a theology and/or a belief concerning the Nature of the Divine which is what Sahaj Marg is claiming to have a Natural Path to....Again could be done in journalistic form. We don't have to say Chari is wrong, but teachings of this magnitude should not be "hidden". It is a central belief. And it shows the level of "spirituality" and "intellect" of the Master.

Q: If God is formless and without attributes, why in the numerous books of literature in Sahaj Marg is God always referred to as "Him"? Chariji: God is male. Nature is female.

The teaching that is the biggest part of the controversy in Sahaj Marg is the "obedience" to the Guru and the Structure of The Mission. And when it goes to the point of this quote in Chari's Book, the Heart of the Lion, it should not be left out....How can one go from Sufi, the Guru is a Friend to what follows in the name of "spirituality" is beyond me.

''....So I repeat, the Guru is the only friend. In fact, I have said this so often, that in the Sufi philosophy, the Guru is called Friend. "The Friend is coming". Because he is the only fellow who can give his life for you. He is the only fellow, therefore, to whom you must hand over totally, a Power of Attorney....."Do with me as you think I deserve to be done with. Kick me when I have to be kicked.  Beat me when I have to be beaten.  Curse me when I have to be cursed.  But make of me what you think I should be eventually, because only you can do it."

"''So once more I say this in all humility....if you must have a Master, find a fellow who is capable of, you know, throwing you around, beating you up, cutting you to pieces. Remember Parushurama's father and the stern test that young boy had to make for obedience...."Kill your Mother"...."Yes"... He pulled out the sword and cut off her head.  He said, "I am pleased with you my son. Ask for anything you want." He said, "I want my mother alive."  And He said, "So be it."  and she got up and walked off.  The Guru is the Guru, is the Master, when you say of destiny, it means life and death.  He must be the Master of your life as he must be the Master of your death.'

An encyclopedia should not hide this material and we can debate them and come to a concensus about how to put it in. So far, everytime I put it in, someone takes it out. Can we discuss it and someone can tell me how a "blood letting" to obey the guru (a man) is OK in Spirituality, or religion but not in Politics, justice (criminal justice), honour, or the rest of society.

Later I would like to adress the School Curriculum that is being taught at the Lalaji Memorial OMEGA School.

4d-Don --don 04:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Christ was obeying God's will
In fairness: >Do you think Christ was a wise man, that he became crucified so that forever and > ever after humanity is absolved of its sins? I don’t think so. It gave you more license for >indulgence. But after all, you have been forgiven two thousand years ago for what you are >going to do today, what your children are going to do ten years hence, and so on and so forth. >I don’t think he was wise. He left no room, no incentive for human beings to change, become moral, > become spiritual. You are all happy, you see, that you had a Christ who got crucified. >None of us weep for Christ. We are happy. “God bless him,” we say, which is another blasphemy. >You need blessings, not Christ.

Just as westerners and Christians should not criticize centuries old practises of Hindus and Yogis, Chari should not have criticized Jesus' dying on the Cross. --Jondel 00:25, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Christ didn't die simply to undertake Karma, but it was God's will which is indicated in John when he said Not my will but thine be done.
 * In the Discourses of Paul and in many theological teachings, the dying on the cross is interpreted as 'For by the disobedience of one man (Adam when he ate the apple) all men have perished, so by the obedience of another men shall all men gain salvation'.

To Yogesh from Don
Yogesh...

I will tell you what Chari told me when I wrote to him 3 or 4 years ago.

"Thanks for this communication. Anything read out of context can have often absurd connotations too.

With Love and Master's Blessings, Affectionately, 4d-Don

If you don't like arogance and ignorance, don't give it. I can prove all statements I write with documentation including the "philosophy of the diaspora". It is all there for the researcher to find. When you come into a house from now on, try and communicate as a "friend" not as a "Master" or a "superior", chosen by God. There are enough of those causing strife in the world.

Go in Peace and find true love for the Inner Master....

We are all tucked inside the ONE GOD where we live!!! We do not need a "go-between"!!! Learn our spirituality, we learrned from yours and became the way you see us....Now learn ours and become the way we would like to see you!!! Compassionate and helping us feed the poor and the disenfranchised of the world. At least feed the ones in your country so we can focus on the rest of the world..like Africa!!! Sell the Temples and feed the Poor....One human life is worth 500 temples to use Chari's style. (one lion is worth 500 sheep)...so sadly silly!!!

With the love of the ONE GOD in my heart And the love message of Christ on my Lips...

4d-Don...

To Seeker from Christian
Seeker,

I am sorry to make you feel sad. You must at least try to understand my position and feelings, which are very very difficult.

I have decided to get focused on facts only, for they reveal what things really are - whether done by mistake or on purpose. I have therefore stopped to remain in what people imagine about things or want to believe, for it is a spiritual dead end.

I do think we can love all too, though I do not know how to. However, I am convinced this can be possible and a true love only if people stop lying to themselves and to others. Don't you think that's what the masters are repeatedly asking to the humanity throughout history?

I must add that I know what I feel coming out from you, and I do not doubt you have reached higher stages. You are lucky, but that softens your factual judgement.

Christian

To Christian from
Christian, It is probably done by mistake.

If you don't know, there is active history maintained on this site and you can restore the pages anytime.

I am sorry to say it - but from our exchanges and the intentions that you have shown i want to stop this here. Our Masters have taught us to love all people without difference and that is what makes us better human beings. Please don't think these are mere words.

Ofcourse, it is difficult with all these exchanges. But i will try my best, because as i said earlier, it takes lot of courage to love another when faced with repeated criticism.

May all of us find our way.

Goodbye

Here is the part of my initial message that was erased yesturday by a SRCM benefactor.

"The Mannappakkam ashram was said to be an homage to Babuji, but it is only a social tool to show the power of the institution and to impress the mind of people. This gives credit to the mission with material means, and it is a wrong approach. It is just a betrayal of the initial spirit of the mission and of the teachings of Babuji. If SRCM is not much powerful these days in India, it is only because it is still gradually coming out."

Do people still doubt that the SRCM is full of liars and dishonest people, actively trying to hide the truth?

I must add that from now on, each post here is duplicated on http://poxysrcm.blogspot.com/, where it cannot be modified. I invite the readers to go there and read the originals.

Christian

To Yogesh2 from Christian
Hi Yogesh,

I don't resist to interfere.

I just want to make you notice 3 things.

1/ When you say that SRCM people are finally better because they are above the "my country", "my world", "my people" problems, you seem to forget to mention the "my sect" attitude. And on that point, they reveal to be as everyone else... 2/ Are you trying to instilate doubt and fear in people mind by stating that maybe (of course maybe, because you do know nothing at all about these matters, except what you imagine to be the truth), the bad guys will be reincarnated, reading the blogs, while the others will be enjoying themselves in the brighter world. We are the bad guys, and you are the good one. Isn't that a similar attitude than that of the xenophobics? 3/ Please, don't put "Love" at the end of your message. There is love nowhere coming out from your text, even from that word, so why to write it down.

Christian

To Yogesh from Don June 12/06
Couldn't honour your word and stay away eh?...Xenophobia would mean fear of strangers. You are not a stranger to me and I have no fear of you. I have seen many like you of every culture and nationality claiming superiority and mis-representing themselves as God's chosen or representatives and sucking money from the poor or average Joes to feed their lust for power. I (as you falsely quote) have no sheep or following nor do I want one as I am a "spiritual" person (That means the Spirit and I..no one between) You, of the religious bent, claiming to lead the naive to God, seek followers as all religions do. Lalaji is turning in his grave. "Look what they've done to my song" he would sadly say. Lalaji was the elevated and beautiful part of Sahaj Marg. ie the Sufi influence.

There are some abhyasis in Europe who "foolishly" think that Sahaj Marg can be saved and brought back to what it was meant to be (as Lalaji and Babuji). In my opinion, they will not succeed. Sahaj Marg has become a religion and is now into "rituals", idolatry, iconography, materialism, and like all power structures, attracts power-hungy people and the "spiritual" pilgrims either leave or stagnate. You can quote Sufism, Raja Yoga, Christ and Mahatma Ghandi all you want, but your actions and your words and Chari's talk "denseness", not "lightness" nor "spirit". They talk how many? not what quality? They talk dogma and obedience to the Mission. It is our duty as moral and ethical seekers, to record the truth, not a fantasy or fiction or what we would like it to be. Like it or not. Beside recording the truth, if you are truly a spiritual person, not just a "navel gazer", help me get people back into contact with the "spirit" inside all of us, not make the honest seekers into dependent clones of Chari. Idolatry is not spirituality.

Most religions do their proselytizing honestly on their own merits and on the efficacy of their own system. And then there are those such as your group, since Chari, who, using the Christian churches, schools and universities as recruitment places under the pretense of "teaching meditation" actually teach obedience to and dependence on a Mill Manager who claims, through flawed rhetoric, to be the "flesh and blood embodiement of the Divine". The claims by preceptors run from "lear to focus", "take control of your life", to "keep all diseases at bay", but what is really the end product is volunteer for us. And the family? It falls apart. The dreams of the abhuyasi become the dream of the Guru.

Under the guise of being non-sectarian, your Master makes "sectarian" and anti-religion statements such as "the priest cannot forgive your sins", and "you go in the confessional and lie to a priest who is also a sinner" or "Christ was not wise" (see the Denmark speech 2005). Christians cannot serve your Master and Christ at the same time. Ask a priest. Be Honest, for the love of the ONE God. To say so is to be less than honest, specially when you dishonestly are using the Christian Churches (in Ontario, Canada) as your recruitment place (stealing their sheep, not mine). Like Master, like serf. If you and other abhyasis (your morality and your ethics) are the example of the efficacy of your system, re-read you "name-calling" diatribe. If you are going to quote Christ to an ex-Christian, at least try and be "loving" and "compassionate", and try not to be so opportunistic, and self-serving if you want credibility. I have Christ in my heart and Lalaji (a true Sufi who did not hide his past as Sahaj Marg does) also. You are the product of Chari's Sahaj Marg and it is not impressive. We are not amused nor impressed. I want nothing from you. Not even your "Master Plan" or your "Master Song". Enter the place where we live in humility and you will be welcome. Enter as an arrogant megalomaniac and I will try as I am now, to get you to "be nice" and get along with your fellow "earthlings". You are no different from us, not closer to the ONE God nor more elevated. Become Yourself. We see you and we now can communicate it to our other allies. I will attempt to make this site depict an accurate portrait of Sahaj Marg and the lineage of it's founders such as Lalaji's Sufi background and Babuji's beautiful teachings. That part of Sahaj Marg is homourable.

I will forgive you...find a good mirror

I could be less tyrannophobic if you want to be less psychophobic or phonemophobic. ;-))

Don...

To Don/Michael from Yogesh
Hi Don / Michael,

It took me a while to answer because it required that I study your blogs before putting in any replies. I did vist your blogs and I regret to inform you that I found it nothing short of xenophobia ("This Indian diaspora..., "We need to warn people..." etc.,). Is it any surprise then that your posts to the forum should as well be full of such references ("you steal our sheep", "you come to my world!", "foolish abhyasis of SRCM" etc.,). Neither is it any surprise that my not being a Christian and having quoted Christ seems to have generated an almost "How dare you!" hostility. As if one requires a license to quote Christ! In contrast, every visitor to this page shall note the absolute patience and forbearance with which abhyasis of Sahaj Marg have responded to the posts even when faced with the most provocative language. To the discerning, this is proof enough that Sahaj Marg is an extremely effective method of meditation which enables an individual to rise above the narrow definitions of "my country", "my world", "my people" and see the underlying unity which binds all of us together. Sure as Michael says, all words are being recorded for future generations to read and it is only for posterity to judge - long after all of us are gone. Some of us to the Brighter World and the rest possibly reincarnated to sift through the volumes of blogs and find the underlying truth, which was perhaps regrettably denied at an earlier opportunity.

This shall be my last post to the forum, not because I don't have the courage as Michael seems to pre-suppose (as if this was a street fight!!!), but because I'd rather spend my time meditating than trying to resist the resistance.

Love

Yogesh Pathak -

To Seeker from Christian
Hi Seeker,

Thank you for replying. Not so sure he has much comfort at home (I have been there too), compared to that marvelous cottage. But finally, look at what we are talking about: comfort ! I was not saying he shouldn't have comfort. Please RE-READ my last comment and understand each word, it is clear enough not to write again.

Ah ! I am happy to read your evolution. Of course Masters DO ENORMOUS MISTAKES, that is so enormous that one has to be blind not to see them. Let me add something else: there are no such "buts". We just add them to make our beliefs sustainable, but they are not. Babuji has not immediately rectified his mistakes, and now he cannot rectify them anymore. The same with Chari. Furthermore, he has not even understood he made mistakes, so how could he correct them? He does not even want to see that he has made some. Whether we do not understand Master's work is not the question, for this work is spiritual, it is god's, and even the masters, if they are honnest with themselves and with others, must admit that they do not even understand it themselves, though it flows through them. However, I am not talking about that spiritual level, but just human levels of organisation and the inner politics of the organisation. You are correct with this about choosing a master, but once again, I was not talking about choosing a master. How can you say I was hasty? It took me 10 years to get out. During all that time, I received confirmation on confirmation. I got the ultimate confirmation from Charis emails, and from inside when reading these emails. Now I can say something I did not post on the blogs: that what I felt when reading his first reply and the next emails was so incredibly heavy that he must have felt very bad to produce such an energy. It was not spiritual, it was not love, it was not god. It was human feelings of guilt and fear. That's why I am totally free to speek now.

Yes, I said that at one moment. You must consider the evolution of my position through time in these blogs too. My point of view at the begining is not exactly the same at the end, because many things happened in between. Therefore, my position now is that the spiritual realisation of Chari, if high, does not prevent him to do mistakes, and that he is the one responsible for that mess at the SRCM. Do not forget: he is the master and the president, abhyasis are not at this position. He is the ruler of all that.

I know what you meant by ex-abhyasis, but I know what you wrote too. It is not exactly the same meaning...

Christian

To Christian
Christian,

As i said Master could have all these comforts and much more at home. I don't see why he should take so much pain to enjoy these comforts as you may think. What do you think ? The new cottage has all facilities so that he can work easily and without any disturbances.

Master himself has stated in one of his talks that even Master's can make mistakes but that they can rectify it immediately. The question is whether we have the capacity to understand Master's work and comment on it.

Whatever i am writing is out of my experience. Human history may have very little role when it comes to choosing a spiritual Master. It is more out of what experience someone gets under the guidance of the Master. I am sure you will agree with it. "They have no courage " - Not easy to say. They would probably say that you were hasty in leaving without really pondering over it. You may say that you practised for for a long time but the actual decision could have been hasty.

Whatever you may say about sense? Your blog site says that you don't doubt Master's role as a spiritual guru but only that the mission has changed because of the people in it. It doesn't make much sense to me why you left. It is the Master that you must should look up to.

I meant abhyasis who were with SRCM. Sorry for the wrong word used.

Whether someone evolves or not - the evaluation has to be done by the person himself /herself. So what ever you might say (i hope you don't wish that we do not evolve), it does not matter much.

You got me wrong, i did not say that you are an outcast. There are others who were around during Babuji's time who have a different opinion from your's. So i think it will be a never ending argument.

All the best.

to seeker2 from Christian (SRCM oppulence
01/06/2006 Seeker,

Thank you for your messages. I am not sure that an encyclopedia is the right place to have discussions. I would have prefered them to be on the blogs, designed for that, and which allow the text not to be transformed by everybody. However, I answer to you here because that is where you choose to discuss. I will be very careful that my words are not erased or transformed.

1/ the cottages Of course, Chari has to be in good material conditions to do his work - as all human beings -, and as he is an old man, comfort has to be there too. But you make a shift, as usual. I am not talking of that, I am talking of exageration and deviations !

These cottages are presents from abhyasis, I know that. It had a cost. All that monney could have been used in another way. Furthermore, the last cottage is beyond simple basic needs for good material conditions to do the work. And what about the need to have a third one when two already exist in the same ashram?

What I see, you might call me a cynical but that's where the SRCM and its staff dishonesty has driven me with all their lies, is that the abhyasis offered these cottages, and Chari accepted them. How convenient, isn't it? Why not refuse it, saying "Thank you my brothers and sisters, but I have already two cottages and that monney must be spent for other purposes"? This would have been wise, but can we expect wisdom from Chari when the mission is concerned?

2/ Marble and golden lions With this first ashram (Shahjahanpur), Babuji agreed with the current orientation, or reorientation, of the mission. By the way, was Chari already acting at that moment? If so, I do know from where the marble idea probably comes into the mind of Babuji. Your conviction is that a Master is perfect and commits no errors. Mine is that a Master is still human, can be influenced, and therefore makes errors, whatever his spiritual level. Not to consider that possibility and obey blindly is a real human tragedy. As far as a lot of people are concerned, their voices must be heard. Haven't you learned a thing from human history? The lions are painted gold, surely. Do you imagine, considering their size, that it should be made of pure gold? That would be insane from me to believe it one second. Abhyasis have no courage, and analogies won't change a thing in that. They have no courage because the organisation transforms people in such a way. They are grovelling sheeps at the feets of a tyran, and nothing more, whatever the system makes them believe. It would be better - more responsible from the SRCM staff -, instead of analogies, to have the organisation analysed and find which elements are poisoning people and driving them to that inferior stage. If you could only understand this, you could understand my position: why I am engaged in a criticism and why I have decided to resign.

3/ "Even the wise..." = blabla. The source of this spiritual truth is... a movie ! I don't care about that blabla, I'm just making previsions from what I know about the human nature and the SRCM. This is good sense, not vision. For the reader: just admire the shifting strategy. It sounds like truth, doesn't it?

4/ If you don't have to give names, you don't have to speak about that. You throw what seems to be an information, but it is absolutely unverifiable, and its effect is just to make these people as suspects or bad guys in the mind of the reader. According to my point of view, they are probably not the bad guys. They should even be the righteous people evicted by a vile mafia...

5/ The other association is not run by ex-abhyasis, but by abhyasis. An abhyasi is a guy who practises, and they do practise the Sahaj Marg teaching of Babuji. They are your brothers and sisters. Do you think that there is a copyright for that word, which belongs to the SRCM? The same for god.

6/ Babuji did not do right at all for his abhyasis, because now, the abhyasis in the SRCM are so misguided spiritually that they DO NOT EVOLVE AT ALL.

7/ Because I have left the SRCM I am an outcast?

Christian

To Christian defending the cottages
Christian,

All the cottages have been built by Abhyasis for Master. I remember that when the contruction of the meditation hall was going on, Master used to stay in a simple structure with a thatched roof and a single chair after meditation. He is 79 and he works all day. He could have had these and much more comforts at home. He goes around meeting abhyasis, speaking with then and giving them sittings all day except for the few minutes of rest he has during the afternoon's.

If you don't know, Babuji has used Marble for the Ashram in Shahjahanpur. Even some of the smallest temples in villages are built with marble. The Lions are not made of gold, they are painted gold. It is not wrong to use analogies and the the analogy of a Lion's courage is used by lot of people.

"Even the wise can't see all ends" - quote from LOTR movie. So please don't predict about SRCM becoming a 'power house'.

I don't have to give you names. I saw your blog site and know that you are associated with another organization started by ex-abhyasis. Having gone out of SM you have to defend your position.

Don't judge Babuji. He was a Master and he knows what is right or wrong. If each person wants the ashram to look the way they want, each one has his own choice of what Master should do about successor, what will the poor man do. Babuji did what was right for his abhyasis.

There are many others who were in SM during Babuji's time and are still in SM now. They are still around because they feel no difference between them except the Physical form. Do you claim that you and few others who left can assess better than them. This will result in a never ending argument and that is not our intention.

Homosexuality & SRCM
Hi Jondel

Do I get you correctly? If society's standard is to allow Gay marriages as in Canada and other countries, then Sahaj Marg and Chari would harmonize with that society? Some Christian religions condone and some condemn gay unions. Sahaj Marg, since Chari, has aligned itself with the fundamentalist right of North American Christian religions and calls homosexuality "un-natural". That is not so! Would Christ, who walked with the common people (including thieves, whores, killers, revolutionaries and every kind of lusts you can name), have called any one of them "un-natural"? I sure hope not! If he had, we would not think so highly of him. Paul on the other hand was instrumental in the place that women have had in the church and that is not a plus on his curriculum vitae.

In spirituality, to condemn or to pressure people to adhere to man-made dogmas or suggested lifestyles such as heterosexuality or vegetarianism so as to belong to the group is to create guilt and division and exclusivity. One can encourage but not label as "un-natural".

People should chose by themselves how to live and they be accepted as they are by groups who want to be called "spiritual" and not "religion". Most religions accept killers, thieves, the lustful for power, the greedy etc...They are all called "natural". Now in religion, the leaders can instill any rules or dogmas they wish. It is a closed club. The sheep can stay or leave if they don't like it. Spirituality is an open club. We are all spiritual if there is such a thing as a "spirit".

As such, we are all in contact with the Divine and it exists in all of us. The dogmas and rules are counter-productive. Live and let live...We are all "tucked inside the ONE God where we live".

Paul never met Christ, and certainly was not as elevated as Christ.

Keep on the Sunny Side of Life...

4d-Don

Gay marriage and soul reality
>marriages as in Canada and other countries, then Sahaj Marg and Chari
 * I can't exactly speak for Sahaj Marg conforming to a society permitting gay -marriage. The point is that we recognize that we are souls and spirits stuck here in a physical body. The more you engage in desires, lusts, etc. ,the more bound you become. The reason spiritual groups exists is that they conform to a certain level of growth and evolution.  You are not addicted to cocaine, but if I was addicted to and wanted to quit I would join-up with a group that does want to quit. Easier with a group but I, individually am determined to quit whether the group quits cocaine or not. It is very good to join a group where you feel yourself growing. --Jondel 04:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Sin and condemnation
>In spirituality, to condemn or to pressure people to adhere to man-made dogmas or suggested lifestyles such as
 * Sin implies punishment. Most yoga practises deal with evil samskaras by rooting them out step by step. Whether a being knows it sins or not, it suffers for sin. Intelligent societies can institutionalize crazy people but damage is done and the crime-commiter suffers whether the crime/sin is intentionally done or not. Christ nevertheless did suffer on the cross for sins. You also have to admit, people in church take it for granted that you are 'absolved for your sin'.--Jondel 05:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Condeming has a way of amplifying the sin. The focus should be removing by encouraging non-performance of the sin and growth enhanced by meditation. Sin encourages alienation from Divine nature.--Jondel 05:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

We live by our own laws not necessarily divine
>As such, we are all in contact with the Divine and it exists in all of us. The dogmas and rules are counter-productive. Live and let
 * Exactly. The trouble is we have forces inside of us dictating the way we think and live. The onus is erase these internal forces also. We must live in conformity with Divine nature both inside and out. The prophet Jeremiah (section on new covenant) said that one day there will be no need to say 'Look let us go to the temple or the hill top to find God, because one day he will write the laws on the hearts of Men'. The non-confirmity will eventually create conflict.--Jondel 05:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I just would like comment that all forms of samskaras and lust (not only for sex, but money, power, or even wikipedia-editing ) needs to be rooted out preferably while in human form. When one becomes etheral (dead but alive in spirit) the desires and lust can still exist and cause you to be bound. Do I need to cite sources for this? When Sahaj Marg encourages marriage, it is simply to harmonize with the society's standard. People tend to crucify what they don't understand. Christianity, in Leviticus and Paul's discourses definitely condemns homosexuality. Its easy with the web to look up references/sources for this. There are married yogis (male and female) who do not perform the sex act.--Jondel 02:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

To Seeker from Christian re Ashram oppulence
Christian, from http://poxysrcm.blogspot.com/, replies to "Seeker"

Hi Seeker,

I must precise that what you say concerning the ashrams in India is not totally true. Contrary to Michael, I can claim having been there and having seen with my own eyes.

The Mannappakkam ashram is an absolute over exageration. True, the comfort is minimum for the abhyasis, but the castle is as wonderful as a dream. Furthermore, each time I went there (93, 99, 03), a new cottage for the master was built, the last one being a palace into the palace.

Therefore, all this is not for the purpose of meditation only, contrary to your claim. Would you confirm that, for instance, the golden statues of lions at the entrance of the meditation hall are for the purpose of meditation? If yes, what is the goal in this mission, to become a lion or to seek god? Would you confirm that we need beautiful marble to meditate? In 93, there was a spirit in this ashram. It is lost now.

HERE: A PART OF MY TEXT HAS BEEN ERASED, INTERESTING ISN'T IT? (CHRISTIAN) HAVING SEEN THAT, I HAVE DECIDED TO COPY PASTE ALL THESE EXCHANGES IN WHICH I AM INVOLVED ON POXYSRCM, WHERE THEY WILL NOT BE TRANSFORMED.

t. The process must not go too fast. It needs the constant turnover of the abhyasis to change once more the inner population, so that the things appear to be 'normal' to the new comers. Therefore, I can predict over 95% certitude that the SRCM will continue its growth and become that powerful. And then, what will be your argument?

You should mention the names or not talk. You should also mention what funny things you are talking about, or don't speek about it at all. This is not information, this is noise to through suspiscion - please avoid.

I am sure that Babuji would not approve of what all his work has become, don't you think? Whatever, he did mistakes, and we can all see that now.

Christian

Michael
Michael, For your information

If any organization grows then such a structure is inevitable. You can't expect Master to run it the same way it was 30 years back.Don't know if you have ever been to any of the ashrams,using your terminology - The so called castle's and acquisitions are being used only for the purpose of meditation and comforts are kept to the minimum standards acceptable to human beings to just sit and meditate. In India where so called spiritual guru's dominate the political scene, SRCM could have become much bigger and more powerful - Master has kept it way from all politics as other Masters have done. SM is still available to all at no cost as it was earlier.

Master has emphasised that Sahaj Marg is not growing because of the behaviour of preceptors and Abhyasis.He has told that Abhyasis (Preceptors included) have to be role models. Is it wrong ? It is not about the numbers. You can refer to any speech and tell me if anything other than this has been attributed to no or very little growth by Master.

The diversion was for a specific purpose. There was no person assault of anyone or any religion. If you see Don's post, he has called the currently practicing abhyasis 'foolish' and 'blind' Is it not personal assault ?

I have been with Sahaj marg for close to 20 years now. I have seen a few people who have gone out after being closely associated with the mission. Most of them did very funny things before they left (I don't want to mention names) and they even told before leaving that 'other Master's were never like this'. I am sure Babuji would not have approved of whatever they were doing and neither would you if you knew what they did. My opinion is that what Master has done by making the mission disciplined is justified because because he has to deal with such people. Some have even apoligized to Master later and are still continuing their practice. Some others left because they were not ready to accept someone who was their associate not long back becoming the Master which i think was the real reason why most left.I am not sure about your experience but for me all that Master has done is fair.

There are many others who were in SM during Babuji's time and are still in SM now. They are still around because they feel no difference between them except the Physical form. Do you claim that you and few others who left can assess better than them. This will result in a never ending argument and that is not our intention.

To Seeker from Michael
Seeker

We are getting bogged down in minutia of religious differences and diversionary tactics. The entire Christianity subject came up when Yogesh made the analogy of Chari being crucified by those who question the direction that the organization has taken under his direction.

Lets get back to the question:

The SRCM was origninally founded to be a "light structure" (Babuji's words) to make Sahaj Marg "available" to the common householder. Babuji made it clear that "God cannot be found in any sect". Yet the organization (Ram Chandra Mission) appears to have become deified to the degree that the organization itself must now be obeyed without question. What appears to be fueling this is a sense of urgency to add numbers to the membership as evidenced by the President's speaches over the last decade chastizing preceptors and centers for lack of growth and constant fundraising efforts by the hierarchy to buy property, ashrams, to support larger and larger numbers.

At the same time complaints from Chari and others in the Hierarchy have been documented lamenting the lack of spiritual progress of a significant numbers of disciples.

What is the justification of growing the organziation at such a significant cost when the apparent results are agreed to be so poor? Why create yet another organization that must tolerate excessive amassing of wealth and property and tolerate internal power struggles and politics when the initial intent as stated by Babjui was to simply make this practice "available"?

Please refrain from assulting the character of the poster (me), diverting focus to other religions, or archiving this post in lieu of addressing the question as was done the last time this issue was brought up. This is important and historical information. Many who are involved today, or have left due to the inner rancor of the organization feel that this question is being avoided. Now is the time to address it given the apparent facts from the outside looking in are not very flattering and an objective historian will not be as kind in posterity, as we all can be now if we are simply straight forward about it and deal with the truth.

I have avoided stating this up till now, but maybe it will help get things moving. When I associated with Chari's inner circle I heard one senior Preceptor (unfortunately I don't remember who, it was a long time ago) that Babuji was building the SRCM organization for some pressing need in the distant future, not for today. If Babuji explicitly charged Chariji with this task, it would explain all the issues that is being argued about here.

Should we simply speculate that this is the case (since Chari will not address this directly), add it to the wikipedia page as a rumored speculation, and move on?

Otherwise this issue will plague the SRCM and the promotion of Sahaj Marg to eternity as it has done for nearly 2 decades already.

Michael

From Don on Denmark speech re Catholicism
Hi Jondel...

In case you missed the discussion, as you seem to be an abhyasi, so therfore not a NPOV, I will rephrase for you. Maybe you can explain it to your other abhyasis. '''For those interested in the previous parts of the discussion, (comments by members of other faiths) click on "history" and see past dates..... '''

In his speech in Denmark, which I link below, these statements were made by Chari.

Sections from the Speech in Denmark http://www.srcm.org/literature/recent.speeches/051101_Denmark.jsp

''So you are lucky. If you were in religion, you would have to go to church and you know, tell lies in that wonderful place called the confessional. “Lord, forgive me for what I have done this week.” And there’s an equally sinful priest on the other side of the curtain saying, “In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I absolve you of your sins.” Something he has no power to do. No man on earth has power to absolve you of your sins except two people: one yourself, and one your God. In between there is nobody who can do it. That is why religion is useless, that is why religion has failed. That’s why you are all here, not in church.''

In this next part of his speech, he denies Christ's wisdom and his ability to fulfill his "Messianic" duties, which is central to the Christian faith. Again he is not qualified to do so and is being "sectarian", attacking other's faith. He seems to know what Christ has done and why. And his statements are almost "dogmatic". Chari should say that "Chari is not wise" so as to be called "humble". Christ's message of love (even love the enemy), is the underpinning of western society and has survived for 2000 years. To say it has no value today, is not Christ's fault, but because of people who abuse the "love" that Christians are supposed to have and think it "not Wise"....

''I am no Christ, you know, to crucify myself on the cross for all of you. Do you think Christ was a wise man, that he became crucified so that forever and ever after humanity is absolved of its sins? I don’t think so. It gave you more license for indulgence. But after all, you have been forgiven two thousand years ago for what you are going to do today, what your children are going to do ten years hence, and so on and so forth. I don’t think he was wise. He left no room, no incentive for human beings to change, become moral, become spiritual. You are all happy, you see, that you had a Christ who got crucified. None of us weep for Christ. We are happy. “God bless him,” we say, which is another blasphemy. You need blessings, not Christ.''

One does not have to agree with Christianity to allow it to state and beleive what they want to, just like Sahaj Marg. What the discussion was about is can you criticise and denigrate other religions and claim to be "non-sectarian" as Sahaj Marg does. Your litterature states that anyone who is a Christian can be devotee of the Gurus of Sahaj Marg and keep their religious rituals and beliefs. When one looks closer, (I have been an abhyasi under Babuji, when it was "spirituality"), one sees that Sahaj Marg is not "non-sectarian" anymore nor accepting of others as it once was. It has become dogmatic and arrogant and does not take criticism well but criticises others. That should be reflected in the PR material and at least in a "democratic encyclopedia". Ignoring it will not make it go away. There are too many people that have been affected who now want to "speak out". Sahaj Marg whould face it and adress the problem. There should be an apology for the above statements. The priest can forgive sins, according to the Christians, just like Chari can erase Samskaras (imprints on the soul from past actions)

It is just about respect for other religions and "Non-sectarianism" which you claim to be.....

I was also a Catholic and have read the Catholic, the latin, the French and the King James version of the Bible. Plus I was and still am a student of History, including the history of Christianity and the many "yogas"

As Christ would say: "Let those who have eyes, see!"

May the ONE God, Bless you...And show you respect for other religions, or faiths.

PS...Anything I add to the discussion will be taken from your material Which I have read and lived with Babuji. Most of the contentious material will be the later material and will be from Chari. Some of the claims and dreams of Babuji for Sahaj Marg no longer seem to apply to the "modern" Sahaj Marg and should be addressed so as to be "accurate" and "honest". I rraise them for the same of discussion and for the sake of the Truth.

Don on Materialism in SRCM
Hi 61.230.0.229

I read your article about tradition and I agree with it. It talks about religions all doing the same thing. They do not claim to be anything but a religion. Sahaj Marg claims to be "non-sectarian" and respectful (read Lalaji's Master), lalaji and Babuji) of other religions. Under Babuji and I hear that under Lalaji, one could be a Christian and practice Sahaj Marg as it was a "spiritual" movement so did not conflict with the faith or the rituals of all and every religions.  That has changed in Sahaj Marg and as such, the PR material and the claims as to "non-sectarianism" should change.  If Chari wants Sahaj Marg to be dogmatic, critical of other religions and life styles, and "sectarian" then he can say so in your PR material.  Sahaj Marg has become a religion that is still advertising itself as a "learn to Meditate" or spiritual Group as Babuji and Lalaji wanted it to be.  That is why the schisms took place and why most of the 'spiritual" people have left and the Materialists (Brahmin) have taken over.  I do not want Sahaj Marg to disappear or to fall apart, even in its materailism, much as I don't want Christianity or Islam to fall apart. They all have societal value.

I just want God to be beyond the control of small "materialist" and self serving groups. Just say who you really are and who and what you really believe and serve. In spirituality, you should accept me because I am a "spirit" and I have lived my spirituality from as long as I can remember (6 or 7 years old). Whenever I checked out a group, it was to find the "spirit" in it. That's what I want to see in Sahaj Marg. Where is the "spirituality"? I could see it in Babuji, and I read about it in Lalaji, and it sounded accurate. In Sahaj Marg now, it sounds wrong. It sounds like a religion, and a theocratic religion at that where the leader has all the power: political, financial and spiritual. An Example: In Canada, the Board of Directors of SRCM Canada is 7 "foreigners" and 4 Canadians. We are not "obedient" enough I guess....

God, the SPIRIT is ONE and is ALL....IT belongs to everyone and everything.

God Bless you all

Don...

To Don
Don, Go to this page. It has the written statement that Christ criticized the practice of ancient jews. Now tell me, Was christ wrong ? Was he 'sectarian' because he criticized the practice followed by others ? Answer this first. Don't start the statements abt 'truth'. We have heard enough of it from you.

http://askelm.com/doctrine/d020502.htm

We are all quite impressed - you are well read. But read what is written below and apply some logic and think if they intend to attack any faith.

If you want a NPOV even these statements about christ by Master must be put on the website.

Not for nothing Christ said, "Love thy neighbor as thy self." And my neighbour is not just one who is sitting next to me, but everybody is my neighbour, including trees, animals, birds, insects. If you say, "I love my wife," it may not be a lie. But you cannot love your wife and not love everybody else. This light cannot shine only for you. The sun is universal. Air, light, water-God gave to everybody. Essentials of life are free. Love is an essentiality. We cannot live without love. We cannot have been born without love. And if we die without love, that would be a terrible death, a death in isolation, in misery, in hopelessness

There is something that we are lacking in offering to the local people, the American population, for whose sake the Mission exists here. Of course, it exists to serve the Indians, too, but it is not an Indian Mission. But, it is a Mission which was started in India. Its guru is not an Indian guru, he happens to have been born in India, and therefore he is an Indian. And the system is not an Indian system, though it is based on the ancient yogic systems. These are accidents of birth, nationality and geography. You know like Christ is not only for Jerusalem, and Mohammad, may His name be blessed, is not only for Saudi Arabia or Jeddah or wherever. They are all personalities recognized as universal, whose philosophies, whose teachings are for all mankind, for those who are willing to accept them, as is the case with the Buddha, too, so also with my Master.

From these statements there should be no doubts that SM has respect for all faiths.

From Don to Jondel
Hi Jondel...

To adress your points...

1. Sin according to the Christianity is an act or a thought that goes against Gods laws as given to his prophets and saints. Some claim that sin is an "un-natural" act so they falsely include homosexuality, and not sex-for-fun, as a sin, since they see it as an un-natural act (even Sahaj Marg and Chari). We now know from research that 450 species of animals practice homosexuality, so it should not be called "un-natural" and should be placed in the same category as "sex-for-fun" or a waste of time but not something to be excluded from a group for. Certainly not a "spiritual" group as homosexuals are also a "spirit" so can practice "spirituality" in a "non-sectarian" spiritual group much as "sex-for-fun" or back-scratching adherents. Back to sin. One has to be "conscious" to sin. Mentally deficient persons and animals do not sin. There is also a legal defense in most countries of "temporary insanity" (including Post menstrual syndrom). There are also mitigating circumstances that make an action a sin or not. Self defense is one. And defense of the country is another. (Some (Quakers, Shakers, etc..), debate that one).

You seem to know what samskaras are and so do I and so do most people. I see it as the Law of Cause and effect. Every action causes a reaction. So attacking another person will bring an attack on you. Attacking another's religion is the same. Some Gurus claim to be able to erase Samskaras. Some priests claim to be able to forgive sins. They both are not liars. I respect them both. There is a "therapeutic" value to both and they make the disciples "feel good" or renewed and "lighter". So they have a societal value.

2. Can,t deny that...Religion has got dogmas and tenets and many exterior rituals...Spirituality, (relationship with the spirit) should not have dogmas nor rituals. Spirit is dynamic. Spirituality should be dynamic. Spirituality is not a "pill" or a "feel good" mechanism as "spiritualism" (mediums and seances and chanelling)  It is a Interior or exterior relationship with the Spirit, not the material. A group that is spiritual, will spend most of its time in the spirit not in the Material (fund-raising, building structures, educating, etc...).

3. No comment

4. Lalaji used many systems including mantras and Personalized his meditation to the disciple. He was a Sufi disciple of a wise Muslin (sufi) Master. The "one system fit all", of Sahaj Marg for mass consumption and marketing is where much of the problem lies as the abhyasis are getting "sensations" and "feel good" techniques, but long term, they do not grow. Notice the schisms and what the "rebels" apparently act like when they leave. It does not sound like they were very spiritual after a long time in Sahaj Marg.

5. I agree. "Two on a heart" is an old parlour game that one can try. Sit and transmit to a friend and you can make a "feel good" or therapeutic effect. You might still have an undesireable long-term effect as you are also transmitting your "emotions" to another person. The preceptor, much like the "sinful priest" in Chari's analogy, is transmitting his/her energy and I see a "densing" effect that is not obvious but long term, it is isolating, and divisive and not healthy as is creates a dependency, much like a drug.

6. This quote is from the Sahaj Marg Material...Much of the statement about other religions is false and show a "sectarian" and not elevated point of view (even in Sanskrit..I could say it in latin and french and it would still be false). God is not a HE as Chari states...At least a HE/SHE/IT. Or a Spirit, like we are. That is just logic or theology, which Chari is not very versed in, having spent his life in Business and Engineering.

Sahaj Sandesh No.: 2005.31 - Wednesday, June 22, 2005

ABHYASI'S QUESTION:"..... why do I have to give up my existing religious practices....."

MASTER'S ANSWER: "All religious practice involve the worship of God as being outside us. It is called Bahya Upachara in Sanskrit. Spirituality puts God where HE really is - inside the human heart, and indeed at the heart of every created thing, as Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita. One cannot mix the two. In the Vedas Murthy Pooja is called the lowest form of worship. Mantra is only a way of pleasing the mind, and bhajans please the senses, while giving the illusion of being a form of worship. I trust that this will be satisfactory. If people have more questions, they should be encouraged to read the Gita slowly, and try to understand it. Love to all."

this is all from your material and other religious (Christian mostly) material I have read over my life-long journey in the spirit.

God Bless you and make you wiser that the Leaders....Neither a Leader of Follower be Don...

ArchiveMay30

I've archived the discussions.

Please try to achieve NPOV.--Jondel 12:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

From Don to Jondel (In Latin)
Hope you can make sense of this...It's been a long time....

Pater noster qui es in cealis. Vel Pater de cealis, Deus. In principio erat verbum, vel sententia, vel LOGOS (Sanctus Johannes, apostolicum et in Greco) In secundo, Deus est creatorem caeli et terrae. ;-))

Petite et accipietis; quaerite et invenietis; pulsate et aperietur vobis; quaesumus, da nobis petentibus divinissimi tui amoris affectum, ut te toto corde, ore et opere diligamus et a tua numquam laude cessemus.

Ego tuum congruo….

Deus det nobis suam pacem.

4d-Don…

John 's reply (Latin)
Amazing! My pathetic translation:Our father who art in heaven. Or Father of heaven, God. In the beginning was the workd or feeling? or LOGOS(word) Saint John, apostle and in greek. In the second, God is creator of heaven and earth. Petite: I ask ....and never cease to praise you. There is a whole latin wikipedia which I 'm sure you already know.--Jondel 01:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Don's Translation (In Latin)
Hi John...

LOL...Not quite all of it but some is OK.....Here is my "maybe pathetic" translation (some from memory and some using the on-line dictionnaries....

Our father who art in heaven. (that is correct, from the prayer..I could have recited it all but I'm sure you can too...being catholic)...In the beginning was the Word or meaning (logic) or the LOGOS (the meaning of the word "logos" in philosophy is Logic, as defined by sound using words)....In the second etc...that is OK....The rest is: Ask and you shall receive, (or petition and you will accept, seek and you shall find,(or query and you shall find)  knock and it shall be opened unto you; (or make a pulse and an aperture will open for you) mercifully attend to our supplications, and grant us the gift of Your divine charity, that we may ever love You with our whole heart and with all our words and deeds, and may we never cease from praising You.

I agree with you...

May God grant (or give...My name is Donatus as in the verb do, das, dat, etc...) us his peace...

My Grammar could be off and my choice of word could be "questionnable"...I will check the Wikipedia dictionnary...thanks....

Have you gone through the Julius Ceasar material yet???or is that still part of the curriculum?

Nice chatting to you in latin...;-)..This is great...I'm impressed with your knowledge...

4d-don...


 * Thank you very much. Very little with Julius Ceaser(Gallia es omnis divisa in partes tres. Quarum unum incolunt Belgae, aliam in lingua ipsorum, Celtae, nos Galica appelantur) or something like that.--Jondel 04:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

12 2 masters, Keeping sickness at bay is not natural
12-- Yes I agree with you...I was trying to be "short" and not "verbose"...But you can understand that the priest's ability to "forgive sins" is the same as Chari claiming to "erase Samskaras" or the Imprints on the soul because of "sins" as you mention. (Ie...lazyness, lust, etc...) Both are imprints on the soul, sins and samskaras. It is the workings of the Law of cause and effect, but is not the Law itself...Good Catch....

Good one Jondel...

In Spirituality, we are all ONE and Fellow Pilgrims. When someone (a Guru) criticizes someone else, it show to me their level of spiritual elevation. His disciples become the same as he is because that's what the system does. Sahaj Marg claims to be non-sectarian and accepting of all religions, life styles etc.. as lalaji, who was a Sufi, was. But under Chari, the preceptors organize day-long meditations on Christmas, and seminars at Easter time so the abhyasis cannot truly serve "two Masters" Christ and Chari. Chari's statements on Homosexuality and on religious rituals is not "non'sectarian" is not Sufi and is not the original Sahaj Marg. It is Chari. It was not thus before Chari and the Brahmins or businessmen and all the "Psy" preceptors, that he now has running the Mission. Babuji and Dr. Varadachari tried to stop it. I see it as a hostile takeover of a beautiful and small "spiritual" group that has caused schisms and divisions in the Mission and the families of the abhyasis. Most of the old spiritual people have left or died (many of stress related diseases). And now, the President of the Babuji Memorial Ashram, (Babuji's son) who was not into "spirituality" is claiming that Sahaj Marg will keep all diseases at bay.???? It is just not true and not natural. Prayer or meditation does not stop the body from dying. Eventually, we will die from some disease or other. That is God's Created perfection or Nature

Christ, (and Babuji and many other spiritual fellow prigrims) I still have in my heart, the Churches, I have left behind in their materiality. I want to be "spiritual" not religious.

What Chari does is create an Pseudo-"spiritual" (idolatrous, divisive, critical, affluent,) atmosphere and when anyone tries and get him to stop, they are silenced and accused of being "critical", or "un-spiritual", or negative. Babuji knew of the problems and wanted the abhyasis to help Chari to grow and become "elevated"...but he just shut them out and they left (in silence in reverence to Babuji)..Now some of them are speaking out through concern for the victims and friends who they introduced to the Sahaj Marg system. ..It's like the bully who screams "abuse" when the victim finally stands up and fights back....

Thanks for your beautiful spirit...

God bless you...You are an ally and a fellow Pilgrim....May you find what you seek...

4d-Don

From Jondel to Don
Don,

Quo Vadis?

I am very happy about 2. and 5. Meditation is good!

>You seem to know what samskaras are and so do I and so do most people. I see it as the Law of Cause and effect. Every action causes a >In case you missed the discussion, as you seem to be an abhyasi, so therfore not a NPOV, >I will rephrase for you. Maybe you can explain 11. Your assuming too many things. I appologize for missing out. I will try to review. But the discussions are too verbose.You are assuming to many things. I am not an abhyasi, but I am planning to get into more yoga. I was raised a Catholic and live in Tokyo. Ask any Sahaj marg and they don't any John Martinez (thats me)as an abhyasi. I am supposed to attend but haven't (out of pure laziness!).

12. Samskara is not the law of cause and effect. You 're talking about karma(cause and effect). Samskara is tendencies and the spiritual-mental impressions that create them. The tendency to be lazy, lust, anger, etc especially the samskara that makes you incarnate again.(not samsara, another yoga-buddhist concept)

>Neither be leader nor follower 13. You are right. Everyone has to tread their own trail. Sahaj Marg, Yoga, Gurus etc are only there to guide. 'You' have to take the step a-lone.

14. >confessional. “Lord, forgive me for what I have done this week.” And there’s an equally sinful priest on the other side of the curtain saying, No one is perfect. He is probably wrong to criticize another religion. But I don't know the context.

15. You know latin ? Interesting, I 'm trying very hard to study the language. Pater noster in qui is in caelis. In principio Deos creavit terram et coelim. Sic enim dilexit Deus mundum ut Filium suum unigenitum daret ut omnis qui credit in eum non pereat sed habeat vitam aeternam. Whatever.Mihi nomen Jondelinensi est!

--Jondel 07:14, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Samskara is different from Sin
I would just like to comment: >Maybe if we get someone from the Catholic Church to comment on this, you will >know what they think of the confession. Chari claims to "erase samskaras" >(which is about the same thing). If the priest can't take away sins, then >neither can Chari erase Samskaras as he

1)Samskara (for me) are tendencies and the mental impressions that they are based on . Sin is sin, they are different. (Does the word sin need to be explained?) samskaras is not  about the same thing. --Jondel 12:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Go to the priest for absolving sins if you are Catholic.
 * Be aware of what samskaras actualy are. Investigate. If they are dangerous, they are worth dealing with in the appropriate way.

2)Religion is very different from Spirituality.

3)Sahaj marg is cheaper (free) alternative to TM.

4)S.M. has no or few mantras.(what I don't like with TM)

5)Meditation is very therapeutic and recuperative, like upgraded, turbo-charged sleep.

6)I can't find anything in SM that says change your religion. --Jondel 12:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

FAIR WARNING TO USER DON
WP:3RR WP:WIN WP:ANI

Housekeeping for page-length. Also: Removed redundant POV links topped to page by user 4d-Don: Same links to external POV blogs already exist in main article and also in salutation on this page. Credibility restoration: User also re-wrote post below to obscure error and erased correction. See History.

ADMIN NOTIFICATION: Pre-emptive POV and personal attack-posts deliberately added by user 4d-Don to TOP of chronological discussions; discussion posts that do not stick to purpose of discussion pages accompanying Wikipedia articles, namely sincere efforts to resolve and build consensus. Repeated article re-arrangements by user 4d-Don primarily to highlight a preferred POV rather than present clear orderly NPOV presentation.

Neutrality/Cleanup
Hey Clark.

I think you are just loonely! You must have a need for human contact. I will not reject you or ignore you (as some would). And I will not manipulate you or try and get you to obey me either.

My information is all from Chari and the Sahaj Marg litterature (fair use), and will be "encyclopedic". I agree that this is not a "soapbox", a "pedestal" or a PR site for Sahaj Marg or Chari also. I do not have anyone on a pedestal that I am trying to please or obey. I can be fair and balanced. If I fail, then remind me. I certainly will remind you also.

I would not write my autobiography and quote from myself and preach humility and spirituality at the same time. That would be too "obvious" and demand a "rebuttal". If I see that, I will rebut also but with a "quote" if it is out there and if I find it. Books have to be "accepted" as credible, not just "published". Publishing a book and quoting from it does not constitute "credibility". We have to reach a concensus on the information presented. We can use the "journalistic" style of attributing non-concensual statements by adding "claim" or "quoted as saying" etc...That is acceptable in an encyclopedia including Wikipedia.

Keep on the Sunny Side of Life...I am....And I will be here for a long time...Matter is short lived (measured in time units), mind is infinite and spirit is eternal. (Just an opinion as a disobedient joke) I am having fun. Chari allows that I hope!

Fly Freely with both wings....

--don 15:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Who wrote what? Click tab History
Um, Don ... hey bud, thanks but I didn't write the message ↓below↓ you react to ↑above↑ To make it E-Z for you, I restored the original tagline of that post and even added the link in the sub-head. Write what you will in your blogs, but Wikipedia cannot by hijacked by any one person. This website, for me, is a fascinating experiment for the human community. It is a new thing, an open-ended, dynamic, and ultimately, one hopes, a fair and truthful 'encyclopedia. So please take the trouble to check carefully sources and contexts so that what you say here or whom you address is accurate. I say this to myself, too, Don.

Wikipedepia articles, and even these discussion pages, sre not the place for sloppiness, nor slander, nor this endless ad hominum "bait-and-debate" flame-wars many love to indulge. Normally I do not engage in such exchanges at all. But here I have made an exception, only because I feel Wikipedia is that important, both in concept and in impact. Now I'll return to Silence and let the famous Last Word belong to you, or to anyone who feels the need. Even now I'll leave you not with my own words, Don, but those of others: Kindly heed those words below, written by them (not me) and addressed (you did get this part right) to Y - O - U ... but maybe everything here is wrong.

(Hm. My post and the link was rubbed out even before I finished the polish re-write!)

Anyway, as Babuji Maharaj used to say, "Read and enjoy. Do and become" ... I'm out! -- Sakha 18:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Post by 202.39.223.4
Hey Don.

When editing this article, please keep in mind the following two things:

Wikipedia is NOT a publisher of original thought

and also

Wikipedia is NOT a soapbox

However, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.

As such, there is no room for original thought or research. Also, opinions you may have about a subject, no matter how "right" they feel are probably violations of WP:NPOV.

thanks -Seidenstud 13:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have reverted to version with NPOV and cleanup tags. Also removed "Open Letter" as this is obviously 'soapbox' material. -- MightyWarrior 10:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Blogging Toward Bethlehem to be Born ...
... with apologies for bending Yeats, to Elodie, 4-d Don, Michael, and Christian ~

I have been reading your blogs with interest. When I discovered a reference to a Sahaj Sandesh report I wrote and to my old blog (now closed to the public) in Elodie's, I decided to drop a note to thank you all. I'm also supposed to be working on some books, and the frank and heartfelt discussion on these blogs finally gives me, lazy fellow that I am, impetus and inspiration.

To me, such outspoken honesty deserves sincere and serious consideration! And it is my humble hope that 14 years of recording verbatim conversations with Chariji can address many of the concerns, hurt, indignation, and frankly misconceptions I have read. I suppose there are now have over 200 hours taped of what now seems to be a single vast conversation, one in which we have discussed seemingly everything under the sun and maybe a few things over the sun as well!

The Masters have always insisted that abhyasis think for themselves, and that the REAL "master" is to be found within. Especially for Westerners, there is much to say about the ancient guru-disciple tradition, beyond what I could write in Yoga International or in The Sahaj Marg Companion. Even though I supposedly "knew" this stuff, I too once got frustrated with the 3-M's: the Mission and what I thought were the foibles of my fellow abhyasis -- what group of humans is without these things? -- and doubts about the Master and Method? (But more on this later, perhaps.)  For these and other, personal reasons of my own, in 1997 I left the Mission. My idea was to try to see originally, to get some perspective. Master kindly referred to this hiatus as a sabbatical but at the time I felt I would never return, since my temperament tends toward the solitary. This was also a problem for me during my days in a Soto Zen community, where everything is done as a group, Japanese-style. I stayed alone to think over some of the same issues brought up in your blogs. I resigned as board member of SRCM-USA and as preceptor. I kept in touch with Chariji by email, and went to pay my respects when he visited the States in August, 2003. I was making rather awkward small-talk about the ashram at Manappakkam when once again, he invited me to visit a new ashram at a place called Satkhol: "You have seen the South Pole already, Clark.  Now you must see the North Pole!" I knew what he meant. He smiled mischievously: "If it will help I will make it a command!"

So in November 2003, after seven years away, I was back in India, as Chariji says, back "with the lion in his own den." In Haridwar in a room crowded with about 200 abhyasis I was playing my comfortable role as journalist, trying to get my new video camera rolling, and you could see that Master was in a mood to talk. Waving off other questions, he looked at me and said, "Well?" As usual I had no questions prepared and not a thing in my head, so to stall for time, I asked Chariji if I could ask him anything, even questions some that were present might consider rude or impertinent. He smiled and laughed the high giggling laugh, one of his three laughs, the kind when he is surprised and delighted: "Of course. Please do!" I immediately asked him about his successor, if he knew now who it was, and off we went!

I can say that our conversations and correspondence have been "no-holds-barred" -- about building fancy ashrams, about the parampara or lineage, including Lalaji's Sufi guru (I also corresponded and later met R.K. Gupta in Delhi and recorded an interview with him) but the wonders of those five weeks at Satkhol and later in Chennai were extra special. In Haridwar, after I'd turned off the camera (I was to discover that these moments often happened when no camera or tape recorder was going) Master said something that went right to my core. the conversation got around to why people leave the Mission, and I said that I didn't know about others, but in my case, it was because of the emphasis on buildings and the politics and that I had tried to depart with respect and --

"Excuse me for soundling like a therapist, Clark," Chariji said, "but those are not the reasons you left." And I felt a crackling in the air, and the hairs on the nape of my neck tingling. The old man was transmitting something somehow in his words, just as I felt the very first time I met him in 1992 and asked him my first question.

He continued, and I have to tell you that these words went right into my heart: ''"You left because you have a poor self-image and you were afraid to let yourself be loved!" ''

So with Chariji I never hesitated to ask the kinds of questions a child would ask, or even an enemy -- for enemies are considered valuable gurus to true sadhaks. From the very beginning I always had the feeling that the conversations were meant to be shared, and lately Master has made this fact very clear: "Much of what we just talked about has never been written," he told me after another typically impromptu session last January in Rudrapur. He looked at me and said, "So you better get busy, Clark. You are always recording, recording, and never producing!" Yikes. I don't know how long it will take me to finish the book(s) or video(s) about Chariji and Sahaj Marg but it better not be too long!

BTW, did yall ever hear the one about the famous asura or demon Ravanna, the sworn enemy of Lord Rama? Seems Ravanna got liberated BEFORE most of Lord Rama's devotees! Chariji told me this was because in Ravanna's passion, he was in a very intense state of constant remembrance of Lord Rama -- and the central law of raja yoga that we become that which we think in our hearts.

"I suppose, then, it's important to hate the right people?" I said.

"Yes," Master replied. "Bhakti is comparatively easy -- many can love half-heartedly. But who can hate with constancy and intensity of a Ravanna?"

For all of us, Elodie, Don, Michael, Christian, and if I may include myself, are still thinking of a Master (even if you do not consider Chariji to be one, you are nonetheless thinking of what a Master should be, yes?). Maybe not often, but you think about this enough and with enough intensity to cause you to make blogs about the Master, the Mission, and the Method. The hierarchy of the Masters of Sahaj Marg and all Masters teach the obvious, that we are all masters. What is it that we can claim that belongs to us? "No, God, you are not allowed into MY private hell, my secret shame!" Nonsense. Not just our virtues, our faith, our charity come from God. Even our "vices," our suspicions, our doubts, our fears belong to God. The difference between us and the greatest Avatars? Babuji Maharaj put it simply: we have more coverings.

I like to remind myself daily: Why did I get born -- and why am I still here? What's my mission? Questions like these help me sort though what is important and what is not important. Lots of times these questions turn upside-down my notions of what is "good" or desireable and what is "bad."

It's good we meditate on the supposition of light -- who can argue with that? So let's lighten up. Live a lot, love a lot -- and for God's sake (and our own, and for everybody else's sake, too) laugh a lot (and especially if we can laugh at ourselves) Simple stuff. Pause. Catch your breath and lower the threshold of your attention. Feel yourself widen out like a circle on water, lay back and learn! Joy, cheerfulness, ease, an abiding sense of gratitude -- these are sure signs we're back in close contact with Reality.

And so to end this meditation, let us say together with the Looney Tunes,  Th- th- th-That's all, folks!   Meanwhile, stay tuned... Sakha 22:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

cp

Reply to Sakha
Hi CP

Welcome to the discussion. As you can tell, we are trying to make this page a factual and truthful description of what Sahaj Marg is (including it's Sufi lineage, and it's (Chari's) teachings and not only what the "company PR line" is. Sahaj Marg has it's own PR sites. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia where all sides of a subject are reflected, not just the "positive".  Specially with a group such as the Mission that has a history of negative "realities" behind it that it is trying to "hide" of "bury" behind rhetoric and long fantasies about the "indescribeable and the infinite".

The Polite way to proceed is not to "obliterate" someone else's work and insert your own "opinion" as fact but to proceed one step at a time. I noticed that there is nothing in your "Questions" then reflects anything of what was written before such as Chrari's stand on Homosexuality, and his quote on the nature of the Divine "God is Male, Nature is female".... I would invite you to "lighten up" but not to try to hide what Chari is teaching. And be respectful of what was written before. When you enter a house, respect what is there and discuss before changing, if you want respect in return, even though you do not agree with the words and ideas.

I will leave your edit there for a few days for all to see and then will begin to revert to something that is not so much of a "PR" for The Mission. We want the truth reflected in this encyclopedia. If you want a PR site for Sahaj Marg, you can build one and ask for Chari's permission to operate it.

Join in as you like but try and respect other's opinions and work in a concensual manner.

Some of us here want this site to reflect the truth about Sahaj Marg, help us out...

Don

NPOV
Dear Don,

I didn't mean to give offense or sweep aside anyone's views and apologize if I did. I will try to respond to your question about homosexuality here. Regarding Chariji's statement about God as male and Nature as female, I don't know which statement you refer to, but he often refers, in one context or another, to the Vedic understanding of purusha/pakriti of God or Akshar Purush and "mother" Nature or Prakriti, meaning a special (pra) creation (kriti) of Maya devi for the sole purpose of material creation. Perhaps he was not making a sexist statement?

Don, I think we both agree that multiple viewpoints at Wikipedia are fine and indeed are appropriate, and that fair presentation based on a complete understanding of involved facts is essential. I tried my level best to honor the letter and spirit of Wikipedia policy. This is why I also added to this discussion page the bit above [] about my own history, biases, and background, along with what authority I might have to speak about Sahaj Marg and SRCM, based on my study, practice, and direct experience, especially including over 200 hours of recorded conversations and fairly close personal contact with Chariji over the past 14 years, which have not yet been published. I had previously worked in journalism, but in the case of Sahaj Marg I freely admit I happily venture into what we could call "participatory journalism"! In spirituality, what else can one do? Who, for example, would you prefer to give you a "fair" appraisal of the experience of surfing, a surfer or a researcher of surfing; of dancing, a dancer or one who has never danced; of saintliness, one who has read about it, or one who is a saint? As I tried to indicate, like Zen, like Christ's inner kingdom of God, like Sufism, like any transcendent experience, Sahaj Marg belongs to those mystic and mythic realms where subject and object no longer pertain. This is where Sahaj Marg speaks of the concept of invertento.

I researched Wikipedia policies regarding disputes and especially Neutral Point of View (NPOV). The entire page is useful, but these excerpts are germane: NPOV is one of the oldest policies on Wikipedia....The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. All significant points of view are presented, not just the most popular one. It should not be asserted that the most popular view or some sort of intermediate view among the different views is the correct one. Readers are left to form their own opinions. As the name suggests, the neutral point of view is a point of view, not the absence or elimination of viewpoints. It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject....We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves. There is a difference between facts and opinions. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute". In this sense, that a survey produced a certain published result is a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can....

By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where we're not sure if we should take a particular dispute seriously; but there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles was the greatest band is a value or opinion. That the United States was wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion....

Some adherents of a religion might object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith, claiming that this somehow discriminates against their religious beliefs. They might prefer that the articles describe their faith as they see it, which might be from a non-historical perspective (e.g. the way things are is the way things have always been; any differences are from heretical sects that don't represent the real religion.) Their point of view must be mentioned, yet note that there is no contradiction. NPOV policy means that Wikipedia editors ought to say something like this: Many adherents of this faith believe X, which they believe that members of this group have always believed; however, due to the acceptance of some findings (say which) by modern historians and archaeologists (say which), other adherents (say which) of this faith now believe Z. []

I decided it would do no harm to cite sources [] -- though the sources cited are my own published writing, but these writings were read and given Chariji's imprimatur. Speaking from experience, it is difficult to nail down the mind and views of anyone, particularly those who are highly evolved, like Christ or Buddha, or (for me) Chariji. I have heard him answer the same question with totally different answers, depending on the nature and capacity of the questioner. I have heard him express views that I personally disagree with. He also disagreed with his own Master on certain matters. No big deal. We are all human, and as I noted, Chariji, like you and me and anyone who is alive, growing, and evolving, is learning and changing! Chariji personally does not approve of homosexuality, I personally do not care whether a person is homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual. But about this, let me be clear: Sahaj Marg has no official viewpoint regarding anyone's sexuality. In the speech you quoted Chariji himself made this distinction: "Unlike the churches of the world, we don’t perform same-sex marriages. That is unnatural. God did not intend it to be thus. Please excuse me, it is a personal comment, it is not Sahaj Marg." [bf mine]:

'I like to date. What is wrong with unmarried sex?'''

''For an abhyasi, all aspects of life are sadhana. What is perfectly acceptable for someone who is not in spiritual training may not be advisable for one who is. It is like an Olympic athlete saying, “I like pizzas and milkshakes. What’s wrong with that?” Nothing is wrong with it for someone who is not training to win an Olympic medal. You must choose what is helpful toward your Goal. For a Sahaj Marg abhyasi, only the deepest, truest part of his own heart can make this choice.

''It is simple. Look into your own heart. Whatever hinders or delays your Realization, drop. Whatever assists you in your training, maintain.

'I am homosexual, and I have been hurt that my church / former guru condemned me. Please tell me what Sahaj Marg has to say about homosexuality. Can a homosexual practice Sahaj Marg?'''

''The response to the previous question applies to all, homosexual or heterosexual. The only requirement to practice Sahaj Marg is willingness, a deep longing to become one with the Source. Beyond insisting the general truth that spiritual attainment is impossible without moral and ethical purity, Sahaj Marg is silent on matters regarding an individual’s sexual or financial practices, allowing and trusting each individual’s own heart to reveal the truth. All are from God, and with His grace, all may return to God.

-- Powell, A Sahaj Marg Companion, pp. 127-128

When I wrote SMC, the questions and responses above were included, which Chariji immediately approved for publication. He has asked me to write a new book, and maybe this one should go into the matters of the lineage of Sahaj Marg and the relation to Sufism, the matter of ashram buildings, and other concerns you've raised here and at your blog. I for one feel these are just the kinds of questions that need asking, and deserve definitive responses - not just mine, but ones like those in SMC, read and personally approved by my Master, since after all, HIS opinions are those that concern you and only he can speak with authority about SRCM, not me.

'''Until then, Don, I think I'll sign off on further back and forth here at Wikipedia. I do not think this is the best place for personal exchanges of view, and beyond this I have little to add to the necessarily brief Wikipedia enclyclopedia entry.''' I would be happy to converse with you by email, however, or hold forth at one of the blogs, if we have the time and the dialogue is honest and productive. Again, I did not mean to be impolite and also hope this reply does not give offense. Thank you.

Sakha 21:31, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I recall little of Latin cases but let me try to adapt and you correct! Benedìcat tu omnipotens Deus, my friend Don, et Dòminus vobìscum.

Wikipedia Straight-Up -- Don

 * Okay, Mr. Don, I will talk directly without referring to Yeats "Slouching Toward Bethlehem" (read that poem again!) or Chariji's hint in the story about the demon from the Ramayana Ravanna, which you missed entirely, or the comment from Pliny the Elder, or the purusha/prakriti reference like yin-yang, yab-yum, which you perversely ignored or wholly failed to grasp, along with other niceties and subtleties which just do not work with your ilk. So I'll just talk straight, like the simple Southern redneck I am -- just you and me, one Bozo to another!  Like you, I am not afraid to fight the good fight -- to a point.  Unlike you according to your description, I have other things to do and a real life outside the Internet and Wikipedia. But can we agree to listen and remain open, and (the horror!) fess up when we discover we are wrong?  Deal?

'''>Where are the philosophers, and the theologists in Sahaj Marg? Or yeah! They were fired because they could think! and were free!! Now all we have are techies, engineers, materialists, and psy's (the doctors and the patients)...'''


 * Hey, you know me? Anything about me?  Just because you personally have an ax or two to grind, which others don't, does this mean you have the right to demean anyone who himself may think independently and arrive at another Way than yours?  I've tried to be as transparent as possible and, unlike you, have given my full name and provided an email address in my User talk -- I have hidden nothing.  So kindly try to avoid insulting anyone who does not share your POV.  You can brand me and anyone else who does not reject Chariji as mere pawns of what you dismiss as the PR machine of SRCM but the fact is I still think for myself and take responsibility for my choices.  To refer back to Yeats, the center just won't hold here, my friend!  Babuji and Chariji both affirm they want lions, not sheep, and that precious few disciples of merit come -- indeed, as Babuji said, "it is more difficult to find a worthy disciple than a worthy Master!"

'''>Right Clark? And you will have a 'no holds barred' interview with Chari?...yeah...Right!! Change your meds. You will write what Chari wants you to write...Not the truth....You will try to hide the truth..."'''


 * Change your meds? Please stop this nastiness and chill, Don.  These ad hominum attacks on my integrity, indeed on anyone who does not share your  agenda, can do nothing to serve your attempt to represent yourself in this forum as a responsible, reasonable, "NPOV" critic!  The strident tone, rant, taunt me and others like this and you will defeat your own purpose.


 * You see how these "discussions" can quickly devolve into debates that generate only heat, not light. This has already happened here.  The game being played is this: one person doggedly keeps trying to be "right," baiting-and-debating (to re-coin my phrase) and so prove all others "wrong."  Truth becomes secondary to ego and pride.  The only solution is a moratorium of silence, to allow the storm to subside over time.


 * About the your retort on my referring to many 'no holds barred' interviews with Chari?...yeah...Right!!... well, you or anyone has been invited to email me about this in private.  Please see my User talk page - I have chosen, unlike you, to activate the [Email this user] link.  The "private," is necessary for the time being because there are currently books in progress that cannot be pre-published, but I can assure you I could back up what I said earlier about asking my Master every hard question here and more over the years.  As I said above, if we could speak directly, in a friendly manner, I may provide to you in private, if you agree, some examples -- though some things recorded months or years ago must await publication first.

>yet another "pseudo" religious zealot with yet another "perfect Master (business) plan" and yet another "Master Song" from yet another "Master RACE"


 * Don, calm down. Please ... this borders on insult, were it not so patently silly.

>Reaching the Divine through meditation with a Master (which many spiritual traditions do not agree with...ie Christianity....God is democratic [from below, added]


 * WHAT??? "God is democratic?"  Where did you get this notion???  Nothing in the Bible or any sacred text I know of declares the the Impersonal Absolute, the Infinite, the I AM THAT I AM of Exodus to have any attributes at the highest, formless stage, and certainly not that the Source is "democratic"!  Let's guess that God might be omnipresent, omnipotent, eternal, Love, etc, etc -- but democratic?  Please.  God to date has never asked my vote on any of His/Her acts of Nature!


 * I have practiced Christianity intensely, since I was born by an accident of geography into a Christian society. I still respect and love this path.  I've taken the trouble to read the Bible front to back and memorized huge hocks of text, I've studied Vedic and Buddhist texts.  Later on, as a religion major at Vanderbilt, I also studied and still later practiced Zen for a spell.  Fourteen years ago I began the practice of Sahaj Marg, and have studied all published works, many not published, and as noted, have been fortunate enough to have recorded many hours of conversations with Chariji.  So regarding "democracy," let me speak from this background:


 * Beyond acknowledging everyones free choice to reject the path or follow it, and the emphasis that each person who chooses to obey the guru must think for himself and accept responsibility for his choices, Sahaj Marg, like Christianity, is clearly NOT a democracy -- nor is monastic Buddhism. SRCM and Sahaj Marg have never made any claims to be a democracy, but follow the ancient Master-Disciple tradition that form the core of many Ways, including Christianity. In fact, as my books and articles try to make clear (have you read them?) the Gospels are a disquisition on the Master-Disciple tradition!  The disciples of Christ did not vote on what Jesus would be allowed to say and do -- they were always free to leave, of course.  As for your other incorrect notion about Christianity, specifcally the Reaching the Divine through meditation with a Master (which many spiritual traditions do not agree with...ie Christianity), see John 14.6, where Jesus says: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  No one comes to the Father except through me."  There are scores of other references.

>No more hiding!!!!


 * I completely agree. Chariji's public teachings should be open to all the public, and not be hidden, nor should my qualifications to speak authoritatively and my biases, as a contributor here, nor should DON's own background and views, as the current controlling influence here, be hidden.  So I have added your own blog to the list of "Blogs of dissociated, questioning and/or ex-abhyasis" your own blog, since you should not want to hide your very pointed conclusions about Sahaj Marg.  Wikipedia Admin Jondel also gently requested you to try to be a little more NPOV and moved a portion which includes your more strident retorts.  You may be in danger of moving from POV not to NPOV (Neutral Point of View) but what Wikipedians jokingly call MPOV (Megalomaniac Point of View). Re-read (or read) the tips Jondel left you -- I did! Neither I nor anyone -- including even you, Don -- has OWNERSHIP of any article here, though you seem to have made this campaign your personal mission.  You changed my title to "Questions and Answers" inserted "by Clark Powell," then reverted my arrangement to place the section (again) to the bottom part of the page, and added another and redundant NPOV emblem:
 * Okay. I'll let things cool for a while, and consider additions or edits to the article, which eventually must come.  That one testy, partially-informed ex-abhyasi who clearly has specific and personal grudges  is okay and understandable, air it's fine to air those questions here.  But for one person, particularly one who has a pre-conceived agenda, to bully and dominating discussion pages and articles so that his views are disproportionately magnified simply by being unchallenged on a high-traffic site like Wikipedia - well, this, to me, deserves an answer from others who have access to information you do not have.   Silence in certain instances implies consent. I might even take you up on your number 2:

>2. Maybe there are no pages to Chari because no one wants to write one.


 * Hm. If this page were to be written, then we could collectively re-order everything under Master(s), Mission, and Method, all cross-linked. Since these are unique, interrelated aspects of the system (like body, mind, soul or Father, Son, Holy Spirit, or cloud, water, ice, etc) the English version articles have grown to a point that such a clarification or classification may now be useful.

>Preach to Chari....He is the problem....Not Sahaj Marg...[below]


 * At last -- good news! I'm very happy you see and at last clearly express an understanding of the related-distinction between the Master and the Method (Sahaj Marg). So what do you of making this distinction in Wikipedia, as above?  See this proposal, which I feel should take place only after a few weeks, if at all.

After the straight talk, another olive branch? Don, I really am an open, friendly, and fairly intelligent guy. And I was not kidding when I said I was glad these questions were being asked. Though I am not happy that there seems to be little sincerity or fairness behind the posed NPOV, since you seem to have already closed your mind and set your conclusions in concrete. There is so much you do NOT know and further, do not even realize you don't know. Be silent, seek within, and the ONE will reveal in your chosen form, the ishtadeva that best suits you.

At the Ultimate level the ancient Veda formulation says, Truth is indeed ONE, Don, though paths are many. Sahaj Marg is merely one of those many paths. As "Joshua" suggested, and I agree and have written so, Sahaj Marg is not for everyone. We do not proselytize, though you seem to think so, but neither is Sahaj Marg an exclusive club, open only to an elite group. It is here that Sahaj Marg under Chariji has become more truly democratic, for Dr KCV and others argued to Babuji that immoral or unworthy individuals should not be admitted. All that is required is a sound mind and a willingness to practice. "The greatest enemies of Christ," wrote Kierkegaard, "are Christians." Just so, judging a path or a school by the advancement of each and every student is foolish -- we go to school not because we are already saints and masters, but because we are "sinners" or in need of evolution.

Me, I may have a long way to go - as this lengthy response might illustate! To conclude, then, with six honest words: Everything written here could be wrong!

-- Sakha 02:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

A Way Out
Dear All,

This letter is dedicated both to those who are "pro" and those who are "con." I have been, from time to time, perusing the contents of this discussion board. I suggest that the need to convince (or even, at times, clarify) is the need to validate one's own internal experience. That which our heart knows as truth does not require any proof -- either to ourselves or to anyone else. This is worth knowing. Those whose aim it is to abide in the truth of the heart must be content with this experience in the form of internal communion, for when it is experienced in this way, it is truly universal in its scope -- a universality compared to which, all interpersonal communication pales. However, our experience in communion with the Ultimate is also liable to seek external validation, and even ultimate reality, when made manifest by us, becomes relative truth -- now open to debate and disproof. Therefore, communication is not the way to establish that which needs communion in order to be established. There is a Zen Koan which supposes that a Master is hanging from a tree by his teeth. Someone below asks him about the nature of reality. If he opens his mouth, he falls to his death, and if he doesn't answer, he denies the seeker a response. Of course, this is a perennial problem in spirituality. We should not get lured into this debate of conditional, relative, perspectives, lest a similar fate as befell that fabled Master befall us, as well. May we, instead, be confident of what we find in our hearts, perhaps also finding that it is unnecessary to enter into a debate. It is better to live the essence, is it not? If that is truly our aim, not a one can stop us because if one has the highest aim, though he has an unworthy guru, he will still rise, towing the guru in his wake. Conversely, if one is lacking in his aim, though he might have a worthy guru, this guru will not be able to do much for him. So what is the use of all this talk about the worthiness or unworthiness of a system or a guru when the onus for spiritual development is upon us? If you want to follow a guru, follow him, and if not, don't. It's a personal decision, in which nobody has the right to interfere. Very simple, no?

Joshua [Email this user]

A Koan for Chari
Dear all (and Joshua too)

I could not agree with you more. Taking your Japanese koan and your message to others to heart, now go and tell Chari to go home and communicate with the Ultimate rather that coming to our place of worship (our homes, churches and our countries) where we are grateful and in communion with the Ultimate (Tucked within the ONE God where we live). With missionary zeal, so as to increase numgbers, he opens his mouth and arrogantly presumes and preaches that we are "less in contact" with the Ultimate than he is. That is the arrogance that wastes the time we could spend in "communion", having to deal with yet another missionary who knows God better that us, at our door.

Chari's Sahaj Marg and the JW's Christianity...who is right and who is wrong??? They do not add but come to "validate" themselves with stories of "demons" and "destruction" and imminent disasters and punishment by the ONE...Sahaj Marg has drifter to that level...Instead of Satan, it's Ravanna!!And "hating the right person"...Not love and a message of Unity but negative and divisive.

Everytime (not every but many..."you know") Chari opens his mouth, not being a learned philosopher or theologian, or abstract thinker with any depth, he says things that are toxic to the mind and the heart of the spiritually "subtle" and the "gentle" and will be opposed by those who, not being "living dead", want to protect their families, countries and planet from yet another "pseudo" religious zealot with yet another "perfect Master (business) plan" and yet another "Master Song" from yet another "Master RACE" (Brahmin), claming, as the rich and the elite in their own society, to be the poor, the just, the kind, etc...If we could get those who horde power and money in the name of God to share with the poor, we would not have a "poverty" problem in the world. Words are only used by Sahaj Marg to justify intellectually what they do not do: The true spiritual work of "Loving your neighbour" insteand of sucking more money and time out of him....Tell Chari to Shut his mouth before he falls, as in your Japanese Koan. I will not go to India and try and communicate my arrogance to him. I will stay Tucked inside the ONE GOD where I live...With my mouth shut, in silence, in gratitude and in Love and in doing social works for the less fortunate than me...

Preach to Chari....He is the problem....Not Sahaj Marg...Babuji had it right...Chari got it wrong...He's at my door with his mouth flapping in the wind spewing "nonsense", like "sahaj Marg is Democratic and displays the Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity,,or God is Male and Nature is Female, etc. etc. etc.....Go Home....God is not Male, Nature is not female and Sahaj Marg is not democratic, it divides families and societies and does not add to the Gross National Happiness of a community but adds another "evangelical missionary", looking for converts to his "holy path" as if it was superior to the others who are also chasing the "numbers". You are just the "foot soldiers" for a "money/power hungry" Gang....(5 houses for the guru's son), three for Chari, none for the poor....Oh and the books by SRCM abhyasis about "you too can get rich" and "you too can sell" are all about spirituality....Yeah!!!

You got to think the world is deaf and blind....

I will shut up now....Do not get me talking again...You or Chari...Go home and commune with the Ultimate and leave the rest of us "tucked inside the ONE God where we live"...

Don

Points of Agreement with Joshua
1. Yes the journey is internal. That is why the Masters traditionally meditated and communed ewith the Ultimate and did not evangelize. The seeker had to find a Master, not the other way around. That way also, the Guru was not travelling around the world "bad mouthing" other religions, dividing citizens of other countries.

Yes. Do the Interior journey and pull your guru in your wake and get him to start doing his job of being in "communion with the Ultimate" and not in communion with the Almighty dollar, the demons (Mammon and Ravanna) and the numbers....And pushing that out to us as "spirituality"...We have a brain...We have to disagree with him or tell him to go home and come back when he wants to act like a "friend" to quote a Sufi book that he quotes. Right now he comes like a "arrogant megalomaniac" and a "con", and a "liar"

He can start by making Sahaj Marg "democratic" or stop lying about it. Appointments to the Board of Directors by the President is not the democratic way. He can start admitting that he does not know the nature of God any more that we do so God's gendre is just his "bias", being a male and is sort of "sexist". And on and on....Sahaj Marg adherents should do their internal journey as you say and stop being so outer (materialist, arrogant (coming to this site and wiping out other people's work or information) and thinking that they are doing "God's work". What's next, "Hating the right person for God" so as to emulate the demon Ravanna and attain liberation before the abhyasis, as as one of you is now spewing?

2. No one has a right to interfere with you in your spiritual pursuit. I agree with you. Get Chari to stop going in other's countries and bad-mouthing their religious icons and ministers such as Christ ("Christ is not wise"), and Catholicism and the Confessional ("priests cannot forgive you sins"....while Chari can erase your samskaras...and A medium is receiving channeled messages from beyond the grave..., the gays ("un-natural" and God does not want it so)....

Be humble and get your Guru to be Humble if you are a "democratic" group, and do your internal journey and leave other religions and individuals alone, specially when you are using their facilities (catholic churches) to reach your "converts", as in Ontario, Canada, and are in countries that allow "Gay Marriages". We are spiritual so we are tolerant. It is just not true as we now know that homosexuality is "un-natural". Are you spiritual Chari? That tolerance level is not very elevated.

The truth is that I commune with the Ultimate daily and constantly and if you do, great. You should have no time left to come and "convert" me to your "religion" or "cult" or ???. If I want something from Sahaj Marg, I can find you.

Canadians (And Acadians too) are the nicest people in the world. We do not have the "empire Virus" and we don't go around the world enriching ourselves under the guise of trying to "save" people. Those who do are not "true Canadians" but implants. LOL...(just joking)  We, like most other citizens of the world,  don't need lessons from India on how to live or how to find the Ultimate....We have eyes, ears, hearts, a brain, a mind and a soul and a spirit....and we are spiritual (connected to the Divine)...we have no choice, spirit is all around us and inside us and we are in it and we are all around it...come and be our friend!

Bless us and be happy for us and we will bless you and be happy for you......And if we meet in our house, enter our home as a friend, in humility and not as the arrogant disciple of an arrogant Master thinking that we need what you have. If we did, we would be coming to you. Sahaj Marg came to us, so it needs what we have. And I understand that. We are gerenous in our poverty, happy in our simplicity, grateful though we have less material wealth than we could have if we wanted to be materialists, spiritual in our labours, and genrerally in heaven. All religions want in. Just be humble and we will share it willingly, not "obediently".

Thank you...

don...

Hmmm..a title...
Dear Don,

General: Just as do you and I, Chariji also has the right to speak, and to travel. And I have the right to listen, if I choose, and if I chose not to, I would also have that right. If one doesn't like him, he is not difficult to avoid -- I mean, most people have not ever heard of him, so it can't be that difficult to get away from him. If he disturbs you so much, why bother thinking of him? I am not wondering why you feel the way you do about Chariji, as you have been extremely clear on this issue. Simply, the perversity of interest impells me to wonder why you are doing things about it. I mean, generally if I were to dislike someone, I would probably not come into their presence, though I would not try to prevent others from doing so. However, allow me to presume that a concern for others motivates you. This, I understand. Of course, please consider the very personal and private nature of such a decision -- the decision to accept the assistance of a particular guru. Though it may, in cases, be difficult to watch, I strongly feel that such a decision must always come from one's own heart, rather than the opinion or even the experience of another, no matter how well meaning they might be.

Personal: I do not insist that anyone accepts my Master as their guru, approves of him, or even respects our relationship. For me, it is a relationship which needs nothing from anyone. I had not intended to speak personally here, but I feel it overflowing from me at this very moment. Of course, I am glad if anybody else would like to share the joy I have found in this situation, but again, that is their business. I have found that people seem to ask me about it alot, and I am happy to reply with my own feelings, although I have never tried to make anybody start. Everybody's spirituality is their own business, and I would never be so presumptuous as to pursue anybody. Anyway, just some thoughts from a fellow Canadian (New Brunswick). (Yes, Don, also Maine, as you have somehow found out. Really I prefer to think myself to be a world citizen, but Passport agents just tend to give you puzzled and slightly suspicious looks when you tell them that ...)

Joshua

Tolerance for the Tolerant
I agree. chari has the right to do and say what he wants to. I just want to hold him responsible for his words, like I would do for all other leaders of Religions, NGO's and Charities who have special status in our society. They should adhere to certain principles to receive the "tax exempt" status.

You can do whatever you want to, it is not to the innocent victims of these systems that I direct these statements. Sahaj Marg makes statements in their litterature and I am trying to hold Chari accountable for his words and to the principles that allowed SRCM to receive "charitable" status. When a group claims to be "non-sectarian, non-dogmatic, and having "no rituals", or is not "idolatrous" or claims to do work in the slums or other disaster relief so as to receive "environmental" and charitable credits or status, they should be held accountable.  It is not enough to serve a "PR" machinery.

When one claims to be "flesh and blood" incarnation of the divine as is stated in the Sahaj Marg litterature and that every Guru is a representative of God, there is a standard to live up to. One can't then just willy-nilly go around the world and cause problems in other societies for the sake of growing the Mission. I don't know how much you read of the statements and the speeches Chari makes around the world, but I do. And I am not alone. Read the blogs from Europe and even the USA. Spirituality and religion is OK but nationalism, and un-democratic activities and politics, and business under the guise of spirituality should not get "tax exempt" status. And I want to assure that others are aware of Chari's statements and that the actions are recorded and not hidden behind the rhetoric of the PR machine of SRCM....

I hope you find what you are looking for. The idea of a Master is not bad in itself but Babuji said that it is better to have no Master than a bad one. I agree with that. SRCM is different today than when I was an abhyasi. It has become a cult of a personality (a businessman) and a business itself....Read the info from the Sufi (lalaji's lineage that SRCM is also trying to hide...why? the Muslim influence?  One can only guess why.

If you are interested I can give you some sites on-line or other ex-abhyasis sites if you prefer. Maybe then you will understand why we do this. It's not like we don't have families and other things to do....We all wish that this was not necessary. But it is. We have to stop these abuses of our tolerant democracies that could cause the next wars and they will be caused by the intolerance of religions and their "literalists" and fundamentalists again. Sahaj Marg, in its sufi influence was part of the solution. Under Chari, it has become part of the problem. Rather that just swallowing the SRCM rhetoric, read the speeches and see who Chari really is.

And then there is Whispers....What is that? Chanelled messages from a medium (French lady) who claims to get them from Babuji and other "elevated" souls. Gee! Spiritualism or spirituality? Do you believe in Peter Poppoff on TV and his "miracle water"? Some of your leaders in Denmark is selling "miracle" water purifiers, psych-geneology and other "new age" scams...Is that going to be Sahaj Marg too? Sahaj Marg has become a cash cow for many questionable practices. We are just trying to get that info out. We owe it to our "hard won" democracy to not drift into "serfdom" as Sahaj Marg would have us do. God is democratic. And Canandian. LOL Just a joke....Anyone can make claims in the name of God.

Must go....Nice chatting with you....Fellow Canadian from New Brunswick or Maine...

More later.....

Don..

Sahaj Marg and Democracy
Apparently there are some people who claim: No one ever said that Shri Ram Chandra Mission and Sahaj Marg is democratic. Here is a quote by Chari in his Swiss speech in 2003, in which he denigrates the French republic and it's democracy. "liberte, egalite, Fraternite" Oh yes, he gets the people to say it for him, freely!!!

http://www.srcm.org.in/literature/recent.speeches/030713_Swiss.jsp

"Sahaj Marg has no such restriction. Everybody, from anywhere in the world is welcome. Everybody can come, everybody can go. There is no restriction. There are no fees. We are not having any restriction of education. Is it a free organisation? Is it human? Is it the real democracy of a free people, for a free people, by a free people? Yes or no? (Audience: "Yes.")

So Sahaj Marg is today, in my opinion, the only organisation in this world fulfilling the requirements of this definition of "Liberté, egalité, fraternité" [Freedom, equality, fraternity]. Vive le Sahaj Marg! [Long live Sahaj Marg!] (applause)."

You are all equal in the Mission so change it if you can. You are all brothers and sisters in the Mission or with all the rest of the world also....so feed the hungry in your country and in the world. Maybe sell one of the houses of the "more equal"....No names... you know them...

4d-don

Hi Clark...

You seem to have a problem with the "God is Democratic" statement.

All your actions are totally free and you are free to do whatever you want (including immoral, criminal and un-ethical actions). Some even seem to get away with it. That is the way God made the Universe. Now there is also responsibility. The balancing of accounts at the spiritual or "after-life" level in different religions is "hell" or "heaven" and/or the "re-incarnation" theories of Action and Reaction or samskaras and Karma.

If you put your hand in fire, you might burn yourself but not necessarily. Some can do it and not suffer the "normal" consequences of their actions. If you give your freedom away, then God is not democratic for you anymore and you will think that God is something or someone to be "obeyed". I would not put my hand in fire as an "obedient" follower of the "norm" or a disempowering guide. I would get severely burned. But some who walk through fire, and do not get burned, think differently.

For me, I am free and God and I made my reality so I can "vote" with my feet, my hands, my mouth, my mind etc...I do no have to obey, no even God. In fact my "make-up" encourages me to "disobey" what does not make sense (logic or LOGOS) to me, like "kill your mother to obey a Guru". I say no! And if God (or my MIND), speaks to me inside and orders me to kill, I will say NO!. God is not that. God leaves us free. I am free and responsible for my actions. And God and I even made it so I can believe in God and still "disobey". That is not a tyranny. That is total freedom.

To understand the democracy of The Divine, one has to believe in the Holographic Universe, and not the "relative" Universe. Believing in the Holographic Universe would place one in the "co-creation" spectrum of Christianity or religion in general. In the Holographic Universe, the Divine would be the Unchanging Eternal Emanation that we as the "created" but still part of the ONE interact with. What we see and feel of Reality is what and who we are and think. The way we think, is what we experience hence the need for Raja yoga and other "mind controlling" disciplines. For some a religion is all they want. For some, a Master is needed. A true Master would empower the individual to co-create his own reality so as to learn his own lessons from this beautiful world. A false Master would play Mind games with the student and make him suffer by witholding his affection, his counsel etc...and give him "immoral" and un-ethical commands that he cannot obey and remain a "integral" part of the "Co-creation" that is his own creation.

You know what I mean. You know what Chari did to you with your "web site" and what he does to others. He is a power "game player" and he makes people suffer rather than make them "powerful". Chari does not share his power with the students, he takes power away from the student and builds his "empire". Your dreams are sacrificed to his "megalomania". Another way to recognize the status of a Master is his attraction to (and of) Power and the Material. Mahatma Ghandi we cannot doubt, but Chari we can and do because of the Material and the symbols of power he himself, attracted and keeps around himself. The only way to gather power from the likes of Chari is to reject them. When you leave them, they want you back in. You know the Mafia: Try to get out and they suck you back in.

He is free also. He could feed the poor and give generously in service to the needy but he attracts rather than shares and gives. His choice. God is democratic and leaves him free. I am free to not follow that or him and warn others about the contradiction between the words and the actions of such people. Brotherly love means to care about the less fortunate "brothers and sisters" and not just keep on building and burying castles and structures of pyramidal power while spewing words like "brotherly love" and leaving the starving children die.

Now you mention Christ and the Bible. If you read John 1, (In Principia erat Verbum), you will find that he says that: Whoever believes in God is the "son of God". So Christ was right. He is the Son/Daughter of God, and so are we all. We are all the "Son/Daughter of God". There is only God and SHE/HE/IT's creation, made from "ITSELF". In the Beginning, there was no material to work with beside ITSELF.

So the Holographic Universe allows for a "Democratic" God for those who do not give away their "democratic" power to a "Master" or to a MAN but interacts directly with the Divine to create a "reality". Not "the" Reality but "a" reality. There is not just ONE but Many. Change your mind and your reality will change. Become Democratic and you will see God as Democratic as you, the creature or the creation is the only Changing part of the Divine. The ORIGINAL or the ONE does not Change. So if there is Change, which there seems to be, it is the creation or the creature that is doing it. One could say that it is the ATMAN.....LOL

If I am Free, God is democratic. I vote all the time in freedom....

So much for Democracy....

Have a good one!

Don