Talk:Sahaj Marg/Archive 3

WIKIPEDIA POLICY
According to Wikipedia Policy, We can all question:

NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW (NPOV). If we who want all the information on Sahaj Marg to come out are not "neutral" then you who are "living dead", serfs, obedient to the point of "killing", not responsible for your lives, according to the Sahaj Marg material, can certainly be thought of as "not neutral" also!!

INCLUDE ONLY VERIFIABLE INFORMATION Statements of "God realized" or that Sahaj Marg will make one "divine" and many other such statements are "NOT VERIFIABLE". The only one who has been verified by a panel of "arms length" members is Lalaji by his Master. So that one can be said to be "verifiable" by an "arms length" panel. All the other statements of attainment through the Sahaj Marg meditation with a Master are "NOT VERIFIABLE"

NO ORIGINAL RESEARCHThis policy states only that published material should be from reputable Peer review journals and other such credible publishing houses. Publishing is now done on-line and many such on-line publishers are not necessarily credible. So if one source is questionned, then the other should also be. One authority, ie a published book, is not any more credible that another authority ie a published blog or on-line newspaper.

AUTHORITY is what adherents to HOLY BOOKS (SOMETIMES EVEN WRITTEN BY THEMSELVES) want to claim but as we all know, the claims made in HOLY BOOKS are not necessarily the TRUTH, but can be included in an Encyclopedia as "claims" or "Quotes", and as "fair use". Is is not because one claims to "represent God", or be the "special personality" that it is necessarily the TRUTH. And the claims of Sahaj Marg bringing one to the Divine or that the Master of Sahaj Marg is "divine" is also not necessarily the "concensual" truth and should only be added in an encyclopedia as a "claim" or a "quote".

To Sakha from Don
Congrats Clark

I read your exchange on Christian's blog....That showed a lot of "character" and I commend you...I will shout your praise from the "Top of the Roof", (Bob Dylan in Ring them Bells). I hope it will continue!!!

Again, congrats...I have respect for you!!

4d-don

Global Concensus Building Proposal for Clark
(I will not use too many "bolds"....LOL

Hi Clark...

Brother Christian has re-opened the "comments" part of his blog and I was just over there reading his "analysis" of his encounter with Wikipedia in general and Yourself in particular.

I read his last post in the "comments" and I think that some clean-up of the "mis-communication" could give you a mission that would "cleanse" the false emotional impressions (samskaras) that were created there, not through anyone's fault, but by a lack of "logic" or "subconscious intention" or through a "exterior control" by a philosophy or a system that removes the "compassion" or love for our fellow humans and transfers it to an individual (the Master). Maybe between you and Christian, you can come up with a "solution" that could be a template for "mediation" of greater "national" or international conflicts. I had suggested to Christian the use of "dynamic" (spiritual) words such as: This not a "Table", IT is tabling. Or from IT (spirit), to energy, in carbon form, becoming a tree, then wood, a table, and will become mold, carbon, energy, spirit).  So IT is "Tabling".   I think that there are some creative venues that can still be explored that might give you "fodder" for your up-coming encounter with Chari (into the LION"S DEN) and could be beneficial for Chari and also, complement Babuji's wish or dream when he asked the "brave abhyasis" (at the time he meant Dr. Varadachari et al, in India), to help Chari grow into the Mastership of the Society. None of us (you or them) were up to the task and Chari just kept losing (through his rejection or expulsion, or ignorance or torture (mentally and/or spiritually) his "philosophers" and "long range thinkers. This created a motion of Love flowing in the wrong direction. I.e. From the disciple to the Master, acording to Michael and as confirmed by the litterature and speeches. The source and flow of love should be (IS) the Divine, the Master, the disciple, the family, the freinds, the pets, society, the environment, the world, the Universe, the Divine. We are not only GOD the Creator but also God the Creation. That might explain also why the name Lalaji Memorial OMEGA School. Why OMEGA and not ALPHA/OMEGA or simply Lalaji Memorial School. Is there a meaning to LMOS? One possibility is Living Modified OrganismS That again sets up a flow in the wrong direction, towards the END, the Finality, The Final Solution. Is there a "genetic engineering" aspect here as in "spiritual engineering" with Sahaj Marg? The Trust Fund is the Baal Vatika Educational Fund. Is there hidden meaning there also? Are we dealing with MEMEs and Manipulation? Some say Yes! and not "Flakes" also but people I respect because we can communicate rationally and I think highly of them. I hope they also think well of me, but it is not necessary to me to hear that. I can remain "humble". Should it not be "investigated"?

Maybe you can see a way of helping him grow or learn (in the mind and/or in logic) about the "Divine". The statements and/or the MIND and the logic that makes them would not be so divisive then. If you can show love, then maybe he can also and will not "NEED" the love of his disciples and they (the disciples) in turn can love their the Divine, families, the planet and their world and the Divine. The Love can then flow from the Divine, through Chari and into his Disciples and into their families and friends and the environment, the planet, the Galaxy and the Universe. Rather than the other way around as Michael put it.

You can also benefit from the encounter with Christian as a way to live LOVE! and Love your Bother, as you call him and others around you...

As it is now, there is a "mis-understanding" between you and your brother, that you could set "straight-up" and/or "straighten out", and make the path ONE that you and Christian could travel together....As you help others to "straighten up" the path, it the "template" could be very necessary to the species in these times of "Religious Strife"....

Just a thought...Not an order!!!It would be nice to not create another "misunderstanding" but to eliminate one. That would be "humble, loving, caring, compassionate" and would not have to be preached....I would "yell it out" about you to the world and you would not have to say a word....You could just be "humble" and Mediate and continue "doing it"...

4d-Don

Keeping to Article Discussion
Please let us keep the discussion to the Article and what should be in it. For those who want to promote Sahaj Marg, proposals can be made to the Shri Ram Chandra Mission at their site or in writing. For more in depth debate on the values of Sahaj Marg (spiritually and socially), please visit the many blogs on the WEB.

These are but a few:


 * Inner Circle of SRCM
 * The Desperate abhyasi web-site- Fr & Eng
 * Mielk - A French Analysis- Fr. & Eng
 * Le Shri Ram Chandra Mission verolee-French
 * Poxy SRCM

Let's keep this discussion on the "encyclopedic" value of the information presented. Sahaj Marg and its proponents make certain claims and there are others who make different claims. We can accomodate all or most if we try. --don 17:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

User Information
For those who want to edit this discussion page and/or the Main Article, it is suggested that you open a User Page and write a shor bio so we may know who you are. Also by clicking on the User name of the Editor with a User Page, you can see some information on that User. My short bio is here [| 4d-Don]

PLEASE DO NOT PREACH AT OTHERS ABOUT YOUR OWN FAILINGS == ==

PLEASE PRACTICE YOUR SPIRITUALITY

Please refrain from preaching to other users. Preaching is usually done in Churches by religious elite who point at their fellow humans about failings in their own character. That is why religions have been in disrepute and many spiritual seekers (most of us) seek a communion with the "SPIRIT". The Churches preach poverty but are wealthy, they preach humility but write their own "autobiography" and history. They preach tolerance but are intolerant of minorities (gays), the disenfranchised, etc... They preach equality before God but claim to be "special" before the same God and do not allow the same equality in their own structures (Women, gays, other religions, and even other races, etc..)

Preaching is of RELIGION. SPIRITUAL people do not PREACH but practice spirituality. They do not proselytize or advertize but let the seeker find them if they want to. Spiritual people do not build empires and empirical structures (churches). '''Spirituality is a relationship with the SPIRIT not the MATERIAL. '''

So all ABHYASIS who come here to preach, or proselytize, please go and meditate and be "SPIRITUAL"  Proselytizing and Preaching is Religious!! When someone preaches or proselytizes, it begins the pattern of everyone preaching at everyone. To ask someone to stop preaching or proselytizing is Preaching in itself....That is a MEME!that infects us all when one begins down the slippery road of preaching at others. Preaching is not "HUMBLE"Preaching is presuming that ONE has information that OTHERS do not have. WE ALL KNOW!

'''DO NOT PREACH LOVE, BE LOVING!

'''DO NOT PREACH PATIENCE, BE PATIENT!

'''DO NOT PREACH HUMILITY, BE HUMBLE!

DO NOT PREACH RESPECT, BE RESPECTFUL!

Some things that would show spirituality and could be thought of:

To be respectful and humble:

1. One would post at the botton of the page and leave the Instruction Messages to everyone (unsigned in humility) to remain visible for future seekers... Placing your material at the top of the page, before the "PUBLIC NOTICES" is not humble and displays "self-importance" and shows disrespect of other commentators.

2. "Flaming" or Erasing a whole page of content to replace it by your own whole page of content is disrespectful of others, unloving, not humble, and not spiritual.

3. Using words to "insult" that one thinks are "smart" such as "boviate" does not create a "spiritual environment, a better world nor a healthy "mind set" to raise a family or participate in society with.

'''As you will tell by the "comment" below (two posts down) we are now in a "TOP POST" format so the Messages to the Public will forever go down the page and be lost....In humility, I went along with it so as to allow the users to learn by themselves the reason for the more humble "Bottom Posting" that would stop the conflicts. Self-Importance is not Spiritual and does not create a spiritual environment'''

'Now since Preaching is to be avoided, I will not preach anymore at YOU! But I will Do so At MYSELF'

--don 19:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

WIKIPEDIA POLICY
According to Wikipedia Policy, We can all question:

NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW (NPOV). If we who want all the information on Sahaj Marg to come out are not "neutral" then you who are "living dead", serfs, obedient to the point of "killing", not responsible for your lives, according to the Sahaj Marg material, can certainly be thought of as "not neutral" also!!

INCLUDE ONLY VERIFIABLE INFORMATION Statements of "God realized" or that Sahaj Marg will make one "divine" and many other such statements are "NOT VERIFIABLE". The only one who has been verified by a panel of "arms length" members is Lalaji by his Master. So that one can be said to be "verifiable" by an "arms length" panel. All the other statements of attainment through the Sahaj Marg meditation with a Master are "NOT VERIFIABLE"

NO ORIGINAL RESEARCHThis policy states only that published material should be from reputable Peer review journals and other such credible publishing houses. Publishing is now done on-line and many such on-line publishers are not necessarily credible. So if one source is questionned, then the other should also be. One authority, ie a published book, is not any more credible that another authority ie a published blog or on-line newspaper.

AUTHORITY is what adherents to HOLY BOOKS (SOMETIMES EVEN WRITTEN BY THEMSELVES) want to claim but as we all know, the claims made in HOLY BOOKS are not necessarily the TRUTH, but can be included in an Encyclopedia as "claims" or "Quotes", and as "fair use". Is is not because one claims to "represent God", be the "special personality" that it is necessarily the TRUTH. And the claims of Sahaj Marg bringing one to the Divine or that the Master of Sahaj Marg is "divine" is also not necessarily the "concensual" truth and should only be added in an encyclopedia as a "claim" or a "quote".

--don 19:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Quoting Sahaj Marg Masters and Wikipedia: On Being Patient, Polite, Humble
'''Patience is absolutely necessary in dealing with human beings, and without love, patience is impossible. That is why the great saints of this world of ours have been so loving - because without it they could never have embarked upon the tremendously difficult, almost impossible job of bringing transformation in human beings. Love has been, and must always be, the sole instrument of human transformation. If love is there, all the other things such as patience, forbearance, self-control all become possible.'''

'''Patience shall bear the fruit in the end and therefore it is generally said that one should have patience for everything. All things happen in accordance with the law of Nature and we should wait for things to take shape.'''


 * - from The Spider's Web, vol. 1, chapter "Hope-The Foundation of Change" p.99, 100, by Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari ("Chariji")

===================================

Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks will rarely help you make a point; they hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping create a good encyclopedia.

The Wikipedia community encourages users to be bold in updating articles. Wikis develop faster when people fix problems, correct grammar, add facts, make sure the language is precise, and so on. We expect everyone to be bold. It's okay. It is what everyone expects. How many times have you read something and thought, "Why aren't these pages copy-edited?" Wikipedia not only allows you to add, revise, and edit the article — it wants you to do it. It does require some amount of politeness, but it works. You'll see.

===================================

'''Anger is a poison for spirituality. Unless one is free from this plague, moderation can never be obtained. Its effect is that the system becomes heavy, and tension is produced, and this does not allow the free and subtle current to enter. There will be continuous pressure on thought. To free oneself from anger, one should think himself to be polite and humble. Nay, he should try to make himself such that the same colour enters each and every part of the body. Cool and calm disposition alone is required for spirituality.'''


 * - from the book Thus Speaks Lalaji, pg 26-27, by Ram Chandraji of Fatehgarh ("Lalaji")

Hope this also is helpful and instructive. Love to all.

--Sakha 04:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User Information
For those who want to edit this discussion page and/or the Main Article, it is suggested that you open a User Page and write a shor bio so we may know who you are. Also by clicking on the User name of the Editor with a User Page, you can see some information on that User. My short bio is here [| 4d-Don]

--don 18:26, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution
FYI: Don or Christian, regarding recent exchanges please see Wikipedia dispute resolution advice. To keep an Article Talk page clear of personal back-and-forth it is suggested as a FIRST STEP users address personal notes to each other at the user talk pages. Mine is here.

Again to clarify for Don: it seems the information about most-recent at the top (what you call top-posting) was obtained while you were also editing. Thanks, and sorry for any confusion.

--Sakha 15:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Keeping to Article Discussion
Please let us keep the discussion to the Article and what should be in it. For those who want to promote Sahaj Marg, proposals can be made to the Shri Ram Chandra Mission at their site or in writing. For more in depth debate on the values of Sahaj Marg (spiritually and socially), please visit the many blogs on the WEB.

These are but a few:


 * Inner Circle of SRCM
 * The Desperate abhyasi web-site- Fr & Eng
 * Mielk - A French Analysis- Fr. & Eng
 * Le Shri Ram Chandra Mission verolee-French
 * Poxy SRCM

Let's keep this discussion on the "encyclopedic" value of the information presented. Sahaj Marg and its proponents make certain claims and there are others who make different claims. We can accomodate all or most if we try. --don 17:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Don to Christian
Hi Christian...

Maybe you reach some concensus with User Sakha. I have read your blogs, both the French and the English and have found your analyses very thoughtful and in depth.

Taking the discussions on the value of Sahaj Marg as a "spiritual practice" away from the encyclopedic value of the information to be put into the article is certainly a good idea. It would cool the discussion on this Discussion page where adherents of Sahaj Marg feel threatened every time something not included in the Sahaj Marg PR material is metionned. And even when the material mentionned is a direct quote from the current or past Master, the practitionners try to remove it under the guise that it is "out of context". It is the same arguments that politicians use.

The Current Master in many of his speeches and books has made controversial statements that should be included in an encyclopedia. I hope that you will participate and help in reaching a concensus in these discussions and that you will add a "voice of reason", and sober second thought.

Welcome to the Wikipedia discussion page...

Don

FAIR WARNING TO USER Sakha
You should make up you mind before doing things. If you want top post, don't complain about others top posting. We will use top posting from now on. Don't try to favour your articles and then complain that others do the same. Don't erase other's posts and complain that others do the same. The messages addressed to me and written by me, are for me. The messages addressed to you and by you are yours.

ADMIN NOTIFICATION

Flaming of pages and replacing by his own, and insults by User Sakha and rants to infinity while on his self-appointed mission do not go un-noticed. Accusations by user Sakha are trivial and have no substance but are indication of the questionalble "spirituality" and the inability of this user to reach "concensus" on issues. Ie Accusation of top posting and then requesting top posting (control game)

FAIR WARNING TO USER DON
WP:3RR WP:WIN WP:ANI WP:PAIN

Housekeeping for page-length. Also: Removed redundant POV links topped to page by user 4d-Don: Same links to external POV blogs already exist in main article and also in salutation on this page. Credibility restoration: User also re-wrote post below to obscure error and erased correction. See History.

ADMIN NOTIFICATION: Pre-emptive POV and personal attack-posts deliberately added by user 4d-Don to TOP of chronological discussions; discussion posts that do not stick to purpose of discussion pages accompanying Wikipedia articles, namely sincere efforts to resolve and build consensus. Repeated article re-arrangements by user 4d-Don primarily to highlight a preferred POV rather than present clear orderly NPOV presentation.

July 16 NOTE: User 4d-Don may attempt to hide identity by posting without not logging in. IP posts originate telus.net in Burnaby, B.C. posting as IP 64.114.237.106 and erasing posts again as IP 64.114.237.83. 'Don, if this is incorrect or inadvertant, please note and kindly login and also sign & timestamp each your posts according to Wikipedia etiquette.

Christian to Clark
Hi Clark,

I have seen how involved you are in the affairs of your master, and can understand why it is so. It is obvious that, though you claim working in reestablishing the truth about SRCM and Sahaj Marg, you are endoctrinated in this system and just trying to advertise it through the wikipedia window.

I consider this as a dangerous option, and I really want people to be informed about the dark side of the system, that you are not presenting here. Actually, you are even trying to mask it by controlling information - people can just have a look at your publication activities to understand what I am talking about.

Therefore, I have decided to make a brief intervention in your work here because it seems to be needed.

Wikipedia is not a place for debates, it is an encyclopedia. It is not a window for a sect, or one more tool for its propaganda activities.

The free discussions, which are not controlled by the sect or its members, and which cannot be falsified as people whish when published, are occuring on blogs that Don recently advertised here, so that people can read them and participate to the debate - something you never did.

Because the problem is complex, it needs a lot of space that wikipedia does not offer, as you have recently recalled - taking this argument to make a real cleanup. This space is available in the blogs. Therefore, if you are after working on objectivation, you will advertise the blogs here in a visible way, instead of trying to mask it or erase the links.

Of course, you say that these links are already on the first page, but they are not that visible. I want them here at the top of the page, clearly visible. It is not the advertising of an institution, it is an important information about where people can find another taste and enter the debate if they are not ok.

I must warn that if the links I put now are erased again (you are not to decide here because you have the same status as I have), I will request for an arbitration by wikipedia. I must add that I put a visible copy on the french and english blogs of the current message, so that people may know what is happening on wikipedia. I will expose you.

Here is Don's message which was erased by CP-Sakha just after its publication

"So as not to go off on tangents about the value, right or wrong of Sahaj Marg, those who want to discuss the wider aspects of Sahaj Marg can do so at the many blogs on the Web. These are but a few:  -    - * Inner Circle of SRCM   - * The Desperate abhyasi web-site- Fr & Eng   - * Mielk - A French Analysis- Fr. & Eng   - * Le Shri Ram Chandra Mission verolee-French   - * Poxy SRCM   -    - Let's keep this discussion on the "encyclopedic" value of the information presented rather than making judgement on the value, spiritual or otherwise. Sahaj Marg and its proponents make certain claims and there are others that make different claims. We can accomodate all or most if we try.    -    -    - Don..."

Christian

Wikisphere vs. Blogosphere: A Primer on the Diff
Hi Christian,

Well-met. As Brother Don wrote:

>I can be fair and balanced. If I fail, then remind me. I will certainly remind you also.


 * Fair enough? I'll get right to the main points of the post above which you wrote:

>You [meaning me, Clark] are not to decide here because you have the same status as I have.


 * Fundamentally true. But you can and probably should, if you have not already, register and post here as a User with a username -- if you wish to have that status as 4d-Don, me, or others. Why?  So that you are no longer anonymous at Wikipedia, and your posts can be traced.  I see this IP 129.194.8.73 for your post. Now this person in Switzerland may indeed be you, could be or someone else using this IP at unige.ch who may not be you since IP's can be dynamic depending on your ISP thus not traceable to any specific user. (This IP is probably static as it shows a history of many posts many times at Wikipedia in various areas.)  Another problem: you may be registered, but not logged in.  No way to know if a registered user is delberately trying to conceal his identity and sneak in posts by posting without being logged in, or it is an accident. For instance, my friend 4d-Don may have done this, or someone from Burnaby, B.C. posting as IP  64.114.237.106 and archiving (I stand corrected) my posts again as IP 64.114.237.83)  Please take time to review again basic Wikipedia editing tips, policies, and procedures if you wish to post about Wikipedia policy with some authority.  Also please sign and time-stamp each Wikipedia post using --~ after each post to show your username and date like this > --16:06, 16 July 2006 (UTC). Many have placed specific editing links here in an attempt to help -- refer to these.

>Of course, you say that these [personal blogger] links are already on the first page, but they are not that visible. I want them here at the top of the page, clearly visible.


 * I will return to this, as this is a central and important point, and bears emphasis: As you must appreciate, Christian, Wikipedia is not part of the blogosphere. It is not to be hijacked as a search engine for blogs -- nor for any commercial product or website or anything else. Placement and positioning to pre-dispose innocent and casual browsers for any purpose other than to present facts, not links to personal opinions, clearly and briefly may be in violation of Wikipedia central tenet of NPOV.

>Wikipedia is not a place for debates, it is an encyclopedia. It is not a window for a sect, or one more tool for its propaganda activities.


 * True. Also (and again) what Wikipedia is NOT.  It is not to be used under the guise of NPOV merely to boost traffic as a search-engine by POV bloggers whose main agenda is clear on those blogs  Again, on blogs, anything goes - it IS okay to soap-box.  In the current state of the blogosphere, anyone may say anything, true or not, cited or not,  Wikipedia has a higher standard.  Here, personal attacks and soap-boxing, the bread-and-butter of a many bloggers, are not acceptable.

>The free discussions, which are not controlled by the sect or its members, and which cannot be falsified as people whish when published, are occuring on blogs that Don recently advertised here, so that people can read them and participate to the debate - something you never did.


 * Please see my restored post, which was moved by Burnaby, BC IP 64.114.237.83, and restored (if this is archived by someone in the current top-bottom chrono archive change, note that links may not work unles fixed by archiver) initial post, Christian, where I expressed appreciation that certain questions are being asked -- but you can read for yourself. Know this: I have read all the blogs, including those in French, with the help of my wife (I'm a simple uni-lingual clod!) To repeat, I have neither the time nor the inlination to engage in blogger commentary debates where it seems wounded egos shed more heat than light.  Spoke up here only because, well, Wikipedia is different, yes?

>...you are endoctrinated [sic] in this system and just trying to advertise it through the wikipedia window ... Actually, you are even trying to mask it by controlling information - people can just have a look at your publication activities to understand what I am talking about.


 * No need to go to that trouble. In the same initial post I introduced myself and provided my background so that all could judge my authority to write on this subject and my biases and POV.

>Of course, you say that these links are already on the first page, but they are not that visible. I want them here at the top of the page, clearly visible. [emphasis mine]


 * Note above. First, and I repeat, I do respect your sincerity and the goals stated at your blog.  Bloggers, however, often run into big problems when they enter the world of the Wikisphere.  When you run a blog, you get to control everything.  At a Wikipedia, you don’t, and no one else does, except Jimmy Wales :) (if you don't know who Jimmy Wales is, better do some research!)




 * Bloggers find Wikis frustrating when they don’t get this basic difference. Your own blog is a good illustration.  As of this date it carries a telling warning: "Please, take care if you post on Wikipedia. Your message can be edited by everyone and will not be protected from being erased or transformed." This is exactly the point of a Wiki and writers are reminded never to post here anything that cannot be "mercilessly edited."  If you remember nothing else from this post, please retain this: A WIKI IS NOT A BLOG (nor is a Wiki a commercial website nor anything other than a Wiki)


 * So all this clamoring and reverting and pushing to pre-position POV links at tops of pages is, for me, a good indicator of real intentions: to HEADLINE or "top" and thus dictate and dominate anything written “below the fold,” front-pagers of newspapers are called.


 * On the other side, since I arrived at least, I've seen no "indoctrinated" member of this cult/sect (other than me, obviously) who cares about positioning or arguments or links made by you or Don or anyone else, here at Wikipedia about Sahaj Marg or SRCM. Pretty poor behavior for a cult or sect that, as you suggest at your blog, where there is supposed to be no freedom to express for those "people questionning [sic] their beliefs and questionning the institutionalized idolatry." So say what you will at your blog.  All I request is that at Wikipedia please do carefully study, as I have, if you do really care, do try to honor the core tenet of Wikipedia, NPOV.


 * (Irony note: House-cleaning for Wikipedia, when I made Archive 1, This post, with all the blog links in the very first line, was at the very top of the page!  You will pardon, but I have placed your post and my reply below the CONTENTS for organizational clarity. Another archive is needed, as I said, to bring this page back to 32 Kb recommended size - if necessary, this discussion can be auto-archived.)

>I must warn that if the links I put now are erased again (you are not to decide here because you have the same status as I have), I will request for an arbitration by wikipedia. I must add that I put a visible copy on the french and english blogs of the current message, so that people may know what is happening on wikipedia. I will expose you.'''


 * Warning noted. You are welcome to expose me.  As for notifying Wikipedi admins, no worry, mate: this has already been done.  I’ll leave your links so that everyone can find your blogs.  May I please retire now, get back to my real work, and lapse blissfully into my "cult-ure"?  (As Chariji told me, and Babuji told him, beware of any so-called guru or any person who has no ability to laugh.  The first test of a genuine disciple, seeker, or guru is this: Does they have a sense of humor? Can they laugh at themselves?)

--Sakha 14:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality/Cleanup
Hey Clark.

I think you are just loonely! You must have a need for human contact. I will not reject you or ignore you (as some would). And I will not manipulate you or try and get you to obey me either.

My information is all from Chari and the Sahaj Marg litterature (fair use), and will be "encyclopedic". I agree that this is not a "soapbox", a "pedestal" or a PR site for Sahaj Marg or Chari also. I do not have anyone on a pedestal that I am trying to please or obey. I can be fair and balanced. If I fail, then remind me. I certainly will remind you also.

I would not write my autobiography and quote from myself and preach humility and spirituality at the same time. That would be too "obvious" and demand a "rebuttal". If I see that, I will rebut also but with a "quote" if it is out there and if I find it. Books have to be "accepted" as credible, not just "published". Publishing a book and quoting from it does not constitute "credibility". We have to reach a concensus on the information presented. We can use the "journalistic" style of attributing non-concensual statements by adding "claim" or "quoted as saying" etc...That is acceptable in an encyclopedia including Wikipedia.

Keep on the Sunny Side of Life...I am....And I will be here for a long time...Matter is short lived (measured in time units), mind is infinite and spirit is eternal. (Just an opinion as a disobedient joke) I am having fun. Chari allows that I hope!

Fly Freely with both wings....

--don 15:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Who wrote what? Click tab History
Um, Don ... hey bud, thanks but I didn't write the message ↓below↓ you react to ↑above↑ To make it E-Z for you, I restored the original tagline of that post and even added the link in the sub-head. Write what you will in your blogs, but Wikipedia cannot by hijacked by any one person. This website, for me, is a fascinating experiment for the human community. It is a new thing, an open-ended, dynamic, and ultimately, one hopes, a fair and truthful 'encyclopedia. So please take the trouble to check carefully sources and contexts so that what you say here or whom you address is accurate. I say this to myself, too, Don.

Wikipedepia articles, and even these discussion pages, sre not the place for sloppiness, nor slander, nor this endless ad hominum "bait-and-debate" flame-wars many love to indulge. Normally I do not engage in such exchanges at all. But here I have made an exception, only because I feel Wikipedia is that important, both in concept and in impact. Now I'll return to Silence and let the famous Last Word belong to you, or to anyone who feels the need. Even now I'll leave you not with my own words, Don, but those of others: Kindly heed those words below, written by them (not me) and addressed (you did get this part right) to Y - O - U ... but maybe everything here is wrong.

(Hm. My post and the link was rubbed out even before I finished the polish re-write!)

Anyway, as Babuji Maharaj used to say, "Read and enjoy. Do and become" ... I'm out! -- Sakha 18:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Post by 202.39.223.4
Hey Don.

When editing this article, please keep in mind the following two things:

Wikipedia is NOT a publisher of original thought

and also

Wikipedia is NOT a soapbox

However, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia.

As such, there is no room for original thought or research. Also, opinions you may have about a subject, no matter how "right" they feel are probably violations of WP:NPOV.

thanks -Seidenstud 13:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I have reverted to version with NPOV and cleanup tags. Also removed "Open Letter" as this is obviously 'soapbox' material. -- MightyWarrior 10:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Blogging Toward Bethlehem to be Born ...
... with apologies for bending Yeats, to Elodie, 4-d Don, Michael, and Christian ~

I have been reading your blogs with interest. When I discovered a reference to a Sahaj Sandesh report I wrote and to my old blog (now closed to the public) in Elodie's, I decided to drop a note to thank you all. I'm also supposed to be working on some books, and the frank and heartfelt discussion on these blogs finally gives me, lazy fellow that I am, impetus and inspiration.

To me, such outspoken honesty deserves sincere and serious consideration! And it is my humble hope that 14 years of recording verbatim conversations with Chariji can address many of the concerns, hurt, indignation, and frankly misconceptions I have read. I suppose there are now have over 200 hours taped of what now seems to be a single vast conversation, one in which we have discussed seemingly everything under the sun and maybe a few things over the sun as well!

The Masters have always insisted that abhyasis think for themselves, and that the REAL "master" is to be found within. Especially for Westerners, there is much to say about the ancient guru-disciple tradition, beyond what I could write in Yoga International or in The Sahaj Marg Companion. Even though I supposedly "knew" this stuff, I too once got frustrated with the 3-M's: the Mission and what I thought were the foibles of my fellow abhyasis -- what group of humans is without these things? -- and doubts about the Master and Method? (But more on this later, perhaps.)  For these and other, personal reasons of my own, in 1997 I left the Mission. My idea was to try to see originally, to get some perspective. Master kindly referred to this hiatus as a sabbatical but at the time I felt I would never return, since my temperament tends toward the solitary. This was also a problem for me during my days in a Soto Zen community, where everything is done as a group, Japanese-style. I stayed alone to think over some of the same issues brought up in your blogs. I resigned as board member of SRCM-USA and as preceptor. I kept in touch with Chariji by email, and went to pay my respects when he visited the States in August, 2003. I was making rather awkward small-talk about the ashram at Manappakkam when once again, he invited me to visit a new ashram at a place called Satkhol: "You have seen the South Pole already, Clark.  Now you must see the North Pole!" I knew what he meant. He smiled mischievously: "If it will help I will make it a command!"

So in November 2003, after seven years away, I was back in India, as Chariji says, back "with the lion in his own den." In Haridwar in a room crowded with about 200 abhyasis I was playing my comfortable role as journalist, trying to get my new video camera rolling, and you could see that Master was in a mood to talk. Waving off other questions, he looked at me and said, "Well?" As usual I had no questions prepared and not a thing in my head, so to stall for time, I asked Chariji if I could ask him anything, even questions some that were present might consider rude or impertinent. He smiled and laughed the high giggling laugh, one of his three laughs, the kind when he is surprised and delighted: "Of course. Please do!" I immediately asked him about his successor, if he knew now who it was, and off we went!

I can say that our conversations and correspondence have been "no-holds-barred" -- about building fancy ashrams, about the parampara or lineage, including Lalaji's Sufi guru (I also corresponded and later met R.K. Gupta in Delhi and recorded an interview with him) but the wonders of those five weeks at Satkhol and later in Chennai were extra special. In Haridwar, after I'd turned off the camera (I was to discover that these moments often happened when no camera or tape recorder was going) Master said something that went right to my core. the conversation got around to why people leave the Mission, and I said that I didn't know about others, but in my case, it was because of the emphasis on buildings and the politics and that I had tried to depart with respect and --

"Excuse me for soundling like a therapist, Clark," Chariji said, "but those are not the reasons you left." And I felt a crackling in the air, and the hairs on the nape of my neck tingling. The old man was transmitting something somehow in his words, just as I felt the very first time I met him in 1992 and asked him my first question.

He continued, and I have to tell you that these words went right into my heart: ''"You left because you have a poor self-image and you were afraid to let yourself be loved!" ''

So with Chariji I never hesitated to ask the kinds of questions a child would ask, or even an enemy -- for enemies are considered valuable gurus to true sadhaks. From the very beginning I always had the feeling that the conversations were meant to be shared, and lately Master has made this fact very clear: "Much of what we just talked about has never been written," he told me after another typically impromptu session last January in Rudrapur. He looked at me and said, "So you better get busy, Clark. You are always recording, recording, and never producing!" Yikes. I don't know how long it will take me to finish the book(s) or video(s) about Chariji and Sahaj Marg but it better not be too long!

BTW, did yall ever hear the one about the famous asura or demon Ravanna, the sworn enemy of Lord Rama? Seems Ravanna got liberated BEFORE most of Lord Rama's devotees! Chariji told me this was because in Ravanna's passion, he was in a very intense state of constant remembrance of Lord Rama -- and the central law of raja yoga that we become that which we think in our hearts.

"I suppose, then, it's important to hate the right people?" I said.

"Yes," Master replied. "Bhakti is comparatively easy -- many can love half-heartedly. But who can hate with constancy and intensity of a Ravanna?"

For all of us, Elodie, Don, Michael, Christian, and if I may include myself, are still thinking of a Master (even if you do not consider Chariji to be one, you are nonetheless thinking of what a Master should be, yes?). Maybe not often, but you think about this enough and with enough intensity to cause you to make blogs about the Master, the Mission, and the Method. The hierarchy of the Masters of Sahaj Marg and all Masters teach the obvious, that we are all masters. What is it that we can claim that belongs to us? "No, God, you are not allowed into MY private hell, my secret shame!" Nonsense. Not just our virtues, our faith, our charity come from God. Even our "vices," our suspicions, our doubts, our fears belong to God. The difference between us and the greatest Avatars? Babuji Maharaj put it simply: we have more coverings.

I like to remind myself daily: Why did I get born -- and why am I still here? What's my mission? Questions like these help me sort though what is important and what is not important. Lots of times these questions turn upside-down my notions of what is "good" or desireable and what is "bad."

It's good we meditate on the supposition of light -- who can argue with that? So let's lighten up. Live a lot, love a lot -- and for God's sake (and our own, and for everybody else's sake, too) laugh a lot (and especially if we can laugh at ourselves) Simple stuff. Pause. Catch your breath and lower the threshold of your attention. Feel yourself widen out like a circle on water, lay back and learn! Joy, cheerfulness, ease, an abiding sense of gratitude -- these are sure signs we're back in close contact with Reality.

And so to end this meditation, let us say together with the Looney Tunes,  Th- th- th-That's all, folks!   Meanwhile, stay tuned... Sakha 22:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

cp

Keeping to Article Discussion
Please let us keep the discussion to the Article and what should be in it. For those who want to promote Sahaj Marg, proposals can be made to the Shri Ram Chandra Mission at their site or in writing. For more in depth debate on the values of Sahaj Marg (spiritually and socially), please visit the many blogs on the WEB.

These are but a few:


 * Inner Circle of SRCM
 * The Desperate abhyasi web-site- Fr & Eng
 * Mielk - A French Analysis- Fr. & Eng
 * Le Shri Ram Chandra Mission verolee-French
 * Poxy SRCM

Let's keep this discussion on the "encyclopedic" value of the information presented. Sahaj Marg and its proponents make certain claims and there are others who make different claims. We can accomodate all or most if we try. -   -    - Don..."

POV For Sakha
Chari's opinion on the Gay life is more important that anyone else's and should be in the article. More so this is a man who has ultimate power in the organization. He can get anyone to write anything and shut anyone up, including shut down his web site if he does not tow the party line. Such total obedience demands that new recruits know what they are getting into when they "test" the Sahaj Marg system as Chari himself has stated that "one meditation" is all he needs to imprint the soul of the abhyasis. I guess he means a "meme". For a man to claim to know what "God wants" should also know that there are 450 known species of animals who practice "homosexuality" so the Master's knowledge of God's wants or likes are not very accurate. Maybe he should become sensitive to nature as he recommends for others. He then would not need a french lady "medium" to channel his messages from Babuji or the other elevated souls. You must admit it is not very inspiring that the Master needs a medium.

When Chari teaches to kids that God is Male and Nature is Female as is now on the SMRTI site, he is making a claim that in a "theocracy" which is what Sahaj Marg seems to be, with the Guru having all financial, political and spiritual power, it is a dogma. If obedience was not a part of his demands, one could debate it with him but one can't. You must know that. You either obey or leave. You shut up or you leave. That is too much power in one hand and should be challenged.

SRCM claims to be part of United Nations NGO connection under the DPI protocol. Democracy and transparency is a criteria at United Nations. Make SRCM more democratic and transparent so as to pre-empt the challenges to that status that could be launched. A dictatorship is not what UN stands for.

I could quote you some rituals that Sahaj Marg encourages including rituals suggested in the "Whispers from the Brighter World" as if they come from Babuji. Meditation on the birthdays of the Gurus so as to recieve "special" transmissions is akin to Spiritual Capitalism such as the pre-Reformation "indulgences" were in Catholism. And yet Sahaj Marg still wants to PR themselves as "non ritualistic". And non dogmatic. And non-sectarian. A catholic would be insulted by Chari's statements on "confession" (priests cannot forgive sins....He even says that catholics "lie" in the confessional)....Hardly non-sectarian.....

I will try and leave some of you material in but I will be editing some out or re-phrasing it so as to make it more accurate and not so "POV"...

I hope you will understand my reasons for doing so and that you will forgive my style should it cause you strife. We are on the side of "freedom" from all who would enslave or shut us up, claiming that it is for our own good and that to obey them is the way to get to the ONE, which is all around us all of the time....We are inside of God, we don't have to get to God...Some do, but they live in India, and they have to get here, which is where heaven is (the land of the Free), and what do they do when they get here? They demand obedience and call us their "serfs".......LOL ;-)) Spirituality lives here.

God Bless you...

et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris

I will forgive you....Please forgive me...We are all tucked inside the ONE where we live....

Don...

Ultimum vale ~ Vincit veritas
>Don wrote: "I will try and leave some of you material in but I will be editing some out or re-phrasing it so as to make it more accurate and not so "POV"..."

This is the Wikipedia, Mr. Don, and of course anyone is free to make any changes they feel are required. I have no objections if you wish to add a section or even delete my own if you feel it's not accurate or worthwhile. Insert comments or citations of your own, ideally sourcing those insertions any scholar worth his salt would. Two points: First point: Practioners worldwide distinguish "three M's" -- Master, Method, Mission. Be mindful that the article here is about SAHAJ MARG (the Method), and the article properly should scope itself within the aspects of Sahaj Marg as a mediation practice. There exists a separate article on the Mission, though the current incarnation of this article seems to drift on a bit toward the third "M," namely the Master, including the parampara (lineage) and the Master's role in both Method and Mission. I know of no Wikipedia articles on Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari (Chariji), the current "Representative," as he is specifically known, or the other Masters. Perhaps these will soon be written, but you might consider whether this is the proper article for a discussion of Chariji's personal views regarding homosexuality, which as shown he taken care to differentiate from Sahaj Marg, the practice. It should be clear that I am not trying to "hide" his views, as you wrote above: "Some of us here want this site to reflect the truth about Sahaj Marg [emphasis mine]. Repeat: What is Sahaj Marg and what is NOT Sahaj Marg?  Maybe you should begin a Wikipedia article on Parthasarathi Rajagopalachari?

Second point: Wherever you decide the place is correct for your "editing" or "re-phrasing," please note that every word added in the QUESTIONS section is in the form of a direct quotation from published, copyrighted material, each one cited according to Wikipedia recommendations. Kindly consult Wikipeida editing policy and approach modifications of direct quotations from cited publications accordingly. Under GDFL you may "revise mercilessly," within certain guidelines, but kindly observe Wikipedia Etiquette of uti non abuti, (use not abuse) and treat with respect, as you requested of me (supra). Quick and Easy? Click any clickable in the line below every editing box at Wikipedia: "Content must not violate any copyright and must be based on verifiable [emphasis added] sources. You agree to license your contributions under the GFDL."

I hope this will be my final "last word," -- no more bait-and-debate for me, thank you.

Clark scripsit, adding that all these fun Latin pedantries are complements et compliments of a wonderfully fun and useful book. The book by happy accident turned up a phrase my Master once quoted. I just learned that he was referring to the wise words of Pliny the Elder: Ne supra crepidam sutor iudicaret ("the cobbler should not judge above the sandal") also given as "Cobbler, stick to thy last" (sutor, ne supra crepidam) which, Ehrlich explains, "advise us not to make judgments in areas in which we have no special competence," as when a cobbler criticized a painting by a master artist named Appelles, who made the famous retort. Why did Chariji speak those very words to me, I wonder (smile) ... to be sure I'd have to cobble back through the recording of a conversation last January in Lucknow ... but no. I am busy with the Real Work of editing -- namely, of myself! -- so I'll just leave them here, and bequeath his intentions for others to ponder for themselves. Take care. -- Sakha 05:15, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Veritas non est UNUM
Deus cordis mei, et pars mea Deus in æternum. posside cor meum et inhabita Aufer a me, Domine, cor lapideum, aufer cor coagulatum.

1. To discuss Sahaj Marg, one has to include all the "pearls of Wisdom" from the Guru as he has all the power (political, financial, spiritual) in Sahaj Marg and claims to have a path (the only path, in his New year's 2002 speech) to the Divine and demands obedience to himself and the Mission. When people do not obey, they are asked to leave until they agree to obey or grovel a bit...Right Clark? And you will have a "no holds barred" interview with Chari?...yeah...Right!! Change your meds. You will write what Chari wants you to write...Not the truth....You will try to hide the truth....Surprise us! Our hearts are not made of Stone and are open (pumping properly). And we don't need favours from Chari...But we like what Sahaj Marg claimed to be and seemed to be for a short while. (maybe it was the Sufism in it that we liked?? Now I just want it to reveal what it is, Good and Bad and let the people decide wether they want that or not...No more hiding!!!! Some like that "obedient" and "serf" stuff, but they are not for everyone. My contact with the ONE is not dependent on a CEO or engineer or Mill manager or a group of techies.  Where are the philosophers, and the theologists in Sahaj Marg?  Or yeah!  They were fired because they could think! and were free!! Now all we have are techies, engineers, materialists, and psy's (the doctors and the patients)...You can't get blood from a stone....and heart of stone is what I see in Sahaj Marg judging by the stress levels and the heart related diseases in the Sahaj Marg population. (uncaring, manipulative, greedy, power-hungry, "hating the right person" (as you say), but not loving....the memes are sent out, created inside the minds of the engineer Master and his hordes of "living dead".

One cannot discuss Christianity without the words attributed to Christ, or any other "ism" Sahaj Marg is not a democracy where Clark's or Don's ideas will "become the scriptures". So Chari's words are "fair use" and will be used. I think that when you or any other editor from the Mission arrogantly decide to edit out material that others have put in, they are trying to hide them from the Masses until the target has joined or has been "initiated". The quotes of the Master who demands obedience and has all the power (political, financial, spiritual), specially when they disagree with the written "philosophy" (when Chari claims Sahaj Marg does not have...a philosophy and then someone wants to write the philosophy of Sahaj Marg???), or goals of the System of Sahaj Marg. Ie Reaching the Divine through meditation with a Master (which many spiritual traditions do not agree with...ie Christianity), and pranahuti, (heart to heart transmission) which was not invented by Sahaj Marg but that it claims to have "re-discovered" as if it was lost but Sufism never lost it.

2. Maybe there are no pages to Chari because no one wants to write one.

This is it....

Don...