Talk:Sahaj Marg/Archive 4

WIKIPEDIA POLICY
According to Wikipedia Policy, We can all question:

NEUTRAL POINT OF VIEW (NPOV). If we who want all the information on Sahaj Marg to come out are not "neutral" then adherents to Sahaj Marg who are attempting, as they are asked, to be: "living dead", serfs, obedient to the point of "killing", not responsible for their lives and deaths, according to the Sahaj Marg material, can certainly be thought of as "not neutral" also!!

INCLUDE ONLY VERIFIABLE INFORMATION Statements of "GOD REALIZED" or that Sahaj Marg will make one "divine", or in touch with the "Divine" and many other such statements are "NOT VERIFIABLE". The only adherent to this system who has been verified by a panel of "arms length" members is Lalaji according to instructions by his Master. The panel stated that: Lalaji was a copy of his Master". So Lalaji can be said to be a copy of his Master and that statement is "verified" by an "arms length" panel.  All the other statements of attainment through the Sahaj Marg meditation with a Master are "NOT VERIFIABLE"

NO ORIGINAL RESEARCHThis policy states only that published material should be from reputable Peer Review Journals and other such credible publishing houses. Of course, there are no verification body for "spirituality". Maybe: By their fruit you will know them, as attributed to Christ as quoted in the Bible. Publishing is now done on-line and many such on-line publishers are not necessarily credible. So if one source is questionned, then the other should also be. One authority, ie a published book, is not any more credible that another authority ie a published blog or on-line newspaper or on-line book.

AUTHORITY is what adherents to HOLY BOOKS (SOMETIMES EVEN WRITTEN BY THEMSELVES) want to claim, but as we all know, the claims made in HOLY BOOKS are not necessarily the TRUTH, but can be included in an Encyclopedia as "claims" or "Quotes", and as "fair use". Is is not because one claims to "represent God", or be the "special personality" that it is necessarily the TRUTH. And the claims of Sahaj Marg bringing one to the Divine or that the Master of Sahaj Marg is "divine" is also not necessarily the "concensual" truth and should only be added in an encyclopedia as a "claim" or a "quote".

On the Proposal
You say: So this new "Masters" article, which you have invited from me, could also include any additions that you (or any contributor) may feel is essential concerning Chariji, his personal views (e.g., on homosexuality, which Chari himself stated are "NOT Sahaj Marg" as you quoted from a speech

I think that whenever a Master has to be obeyed as in Sahaj Marg, his words become the system and his statements should also remain as Teachings from the Sahaj Marg Material. When Chari gives a speech, he is teaching. That is accurate and transparent, and also reflects his tolerance, his acceptance, his compassion and his spiritual "enlightment". He could have chosen "abnormal" or "not the norm" and it would have been logically acceptable without debate, but he chose "un-natural" and that must stand as a testimony to his accuracy, his tolerance, his intellect and "enlightenment".

To say that "it is not Sahaj Marg" as an after-thought to at-one for that statement is not like saying that the Catholic Church stand on Homosexuality is not Christ, which we could all agree. Christ was compassionate, the Church is not. But to say that the Pope's stand on homosexuality is not Catholicism, is not accurate. As long as the Pope has to be obeyed (which power is now severely limited since the Reformation)it becomes Church policy even though it is sometimes "unwritten" or "unspoken" or non-transparent policy. You are not going to see an "openly gay" Pope in the near future. We want to see transparency. The statements of the Master in Sahaj Marg should stay in the Sahaj Marg article and, if you like, also in the Masters of Sahaj Marg page, where and if it is relevant. The statements of the Master certainly reflect on Sahaj Marg wether Chari says it does or not. That morality, which Chari calls "being right" is also being "transmitted" by the Master. And the Abhyasis. who want to be just like the Master, will also think that homosexuality is "un-natural, if they want to please the Master. And it will be like the Christian "Love the neighbour", and even "love the enemy".  Everyone speaks it, calls it Christianity,  but...then the bombs??

--don 06:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikiquette on making Article Changes
HI...202.39.223.4

If you want to make changes [in Main Articles], discuss it first [in Article Talk Pages]....

Don

A Proposal
May I propose an addition and ordering for the two Wikipedia articles related to the Method, or practice, the Mission, and the Masters, which are three aspects of the Raja Yoga system known as Sahaj Marg? As I mentioned elsewhere, Sahaj Marg has from its beginning been known as a single system or entity comprised of three distinct but intimately connected aspects - namely, the Master, Mission, and Method - which could be likened to vapor, ice, water, or soul, body, mind.

I suggest expanding the two aspects below thus far given articles to three, adding a separate article about the Masters, Representatives, Presidents, etc. Naturally, all three articles would be cross-linked. Any and all informed, accurate and preferably cited contributions, including those which are dissenting or critical, should be fully represented according to Wikipedia NPOV policies and traditions:


 * (1) METHOD - make more brief with the focused on the "Way" or practice itself, while referencing Mission and Master.


 * (2) MISSION - Clarify and update MISSION article (which in current form drifts to topic of MASTERS).


 * (3) MASTER - add an entirely new Wikipedia article on Chariji and the three (publicly) known Masters in the lineage. (Perhaps this article could extend to Chariji's recently-named successor?)  All materials in the articles above primarily related to MASTERS could be moved here, e.g., the lineage, how representatives are chosen, their role in the Mission and the Method, any relevant personal views (which may or may not reflect official policy), etc.  This new article and its subsequent discussion page would be the appropriate place for bios, critiques, etc related to any of the the Masters/teachers/Gurus of the system.


 * The simple idea of my proposal, again, is that the main reference article remain under the subject-title Sahaj Marg, with only general and brief references to the Shri Ram Chandra Mission and to the Masters. The main subject, Sahaj Marg should focus on the philosophy and technique of Sahaj Marg. (And yes, Don, you're right - there is a philosophy, and always has been -- one of the books by Babuji Maharaj, if I rightly recall, is so titled!) More in-depth would be the entry (clearly linked from the Sahaj Marg entry) on Shri Ram Chandra Mission.  Secondly, this "umbrella" article on Sahaj Marg would also reference and link to a new article (now dubbed with the working title "Masters").  As proposed, this one will go more deeply into the both the lineage, the biographies, and role of the Masters of this form of Raj Yoga.

With due respect, I feel this proposal is a good one and worthy of calm deliberation in due time. As requested above, it is posted here for others who care to comment or make suggestions.

-- Sakha 09:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Counter-Proposal
The page called Shri Ram Chandra Mission, named after Lalaji by Babuji, should remain as such and reflect the history of the Mission founded by Babuji and named after Lalaji. It is not "Sahaj Marg". Babuji's succession from Lalaji was accomplished according to Bauji, in his dream. This history should include Lalaji's accurate history, lineage (and even his teachings which in my humble opinion, are very close to Raja Yoya and I will add at a later date in point form). It is the Sufi part of Sahaj Marg and should not be construed with the later-created "Sahaj Marg" (modified method of meditation created by Babuji, and that some claim is a form of Raja Yoga and others call a "non-renunciate" modified form of Raja Yoga. This is debateable.  That Sahaj Marg is a "modified" form of Raja yoga is a more accurate description.  Wether the modifications have left the results promised by Raja Yoga intact is a question to be answered by later generations). (see Raja Yoga on Wikipedia for an abridged definition of the eight-fold path and the results promised by Raja Yoga)

I think that would retain the respect that Babuji had for the teachings of Sufism and Raja yoga, dessiminated by Lalaji, his direct Master, and the Naqshbandia order of Sufism, that were offered on a more more personal level (one on one, heart to heart, and not one method fits all), and were much more inclusive and universal in their philosophy. (not an pyramidal institution with membership cards etc...).

Sahaj Marg

I agree that the 3M's (if there is no conflict with the use of 3M's (i.e. the sticky paper Company) of Chari's Sahaj Marg could be added in the Sahaj Marg page and I will do that. I will change the heading called: "Gurus and Leadership" to "Masters and Leadership".  Anyone can then add their info on Chari's successor and the other leadership, which I believe should be included.  (there has been some resistance to that in the past).  Lalaji's Master should also be included there so as to show that one of the results of the Raja yoga meditation, "honesty" is reached in Sahaj Marg also.  That would be one confirmation of the claim that Sahaj Marg is a form of Raja Yoga, and does not hide it's past history in Sufism and Islam.  (Away from the myth of "Lalaji meditated for 7 months and became a Master".)

In the Sahaj Marg article, I will change the heading called: "Daily Practice" to "Method and Daily Practice" or just "Method". And I will add a section called: "The Mission" where we can include the history of the Mission in the world. (Including but not exclusively in Europe where there has been much "negative" reported on Sahaj Marg and the Mission in the media and by governments.

I think the other heading, Maxims and Philosophy (Although Chari claims that there is "no philosophy in Sahaj Marg", should remain as such.

New Article called Masters of Sahaj Marg

Now if you want to add a seperate article on the "Masters of Sahaj Marg", I agree with you that it would be a good idea and could include the leadership and the different committees etc. (as much information as you can get and keep up to date)...but not at the cost of the other two articles. For the researchers, which I am one, I like the seperation of the Method (including the Teachings ie written and spoken words of the Masters), and the Organization (political structure, finances and history).

In Sahaj Marg, the spiritual Master is also the political and financial leader, so there has to be a "dual" entry system (as the dual management "zonal" structure, where meditators and preceptors are not being appointed and/or removed from the "Board of Directors" of the Society) and cross-over in all the articles. So the Spiritual and Political Masters, being the same person, have to be in both the Sahaj Marg and the Shri Ram Chandra Mission articles. That is "transparent".

Hope this will be acceptable to all....Information will set us free....

Don

Agreed: but may take Weeks or Months
Acceptable to me, for one. So, with your invitation and kind permission, Mr. Don, I accept and volunteer to write this article in due time and make the changes suggested here.

'>Now if you want to add a seperate [sic''] article on the "Masters of Sahaj Marg", I agree with you that it would be a good idea and could include the leadership and the different committees etc. (as much information as you can get and keep up to date)...but not at the cost of the other two articles. For the researchers, which I am one, I like the seperation [sic] of the Method (including the Teachings ie written and spoken words of the Masters), and the Organization (political structure, finances and history).'''


 * Okay. This may take a while, since I am moving abroad at the end of the month and have a jillion things to do. By "a while" I am talking not in days, but perhaps weeks or even months.

>I agree that the 3M's (if there is no conflict with the use of 3M's (i.e. the sticky paper Company) of Chari's Sahaj Marg could be added in the Sahaj Marg page and I will do that. I will change the heading called: "Gurus and Leadership" to "Masters and Leadership".  Anyone can then add their info on Chari's successor and the other leadership, which I believe should be included.  (there has been some resistance to that in the past).


 * Good enough. Changing the heading makes little difference -- to me, at least.

'''>The page called Shri Ram Chandra Mission, named after Lalaji by Babuji, should remain as such and reflect the history of the Mission founded by Babuji and named after Lalaji. It is not "Sahaj Marg".'''


 * It is indeed not "Sahaj Marg." But it is also not simply the lineage and biography of the Masters (see above).  It is or should be, however, about the whole of the Shri Ram Chandra Mission as the associated and legally-required organization (reqistered in some 80 countries), which would include its history, NGO status, current membership totals, structure, etc.


 * The article about the Masters, yet to be written, would focus more on the parampara or lineage of the Masters, and add more than is already there. This does in fact dovetail with the history of the Mission (again my re-arrangement can be "edited mercilessly," by you or anyone afterwards, to use the famed Wikipedia dictum, and is, as are all articles, open to "dispute"!).  So this new "Masters" article, which you have invited from me, could also include any additions that you (or any contributor) may feel is essential concerning Chariji, his personal views (e.g., on homosexuality, which Chari himself stated are "NOT Sahaj Marg" as you quoted from a speech) or any other matters, as long as they are FFR (fair, factual, relevant - see above).

The Five Blind Men and the Elephant


 * At this juncture, I confess that I feel like one of those five proverbial blind men, perhaps the one holding the tail of the elephant, who can only describe the animal as being like a snake - and I do bear some battle scars from Shankara-like debates with my elders over the origins of Sahaj Marg and of SRCM! I presume no great authority to write on Masters far beyond my ken, or the history of the Mission, but I do have access to unpublished materials, that eventually, I hope, will go into a book. FWIW, I've researched this over a period of some ten years, and if you'll kindly indulge a few highlights, I once held satsangh in Lalaji's home in Fatehgarh at the invitation of his disciples and some family members.  I have met and interviewed his Naqshbandi Sufi disciples.  More recently I have corresponded with and later filmed an interview with my respected Sufi colleague R. K. Gupta in Delhi, and studied his two published books (one more is in MS at the time of this writing).  Some things I am not given to speak of, but there is much about the Masters and the Mission that has not been widely known. --Sakha 03:05, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Removed Q and A section
As well as being unencyclopedic, this section was mostly, if not in it's entirety comprised of copyrighted content from http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Sahaj_Marg. Sfacets 06:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Being Gay and Sahaj Marg
First of all, let me introduce myself. I am a 30 year old gay male who is also an abhyasi, though I use that term loosely. When I was about 21, I entered a wonderful 3 year long relationship with another male abhyasi, and this was obviously something we kept from anyone, considering the rampant homophobia in the Mission (this is a fact, lets face it).

However, things were going fine, when a female abhyasi who fancied my partner went directly to Master and said that she wanted to marry him, and Chariji without a word called my partner (we were in Chennai at the time) and instructed him to do the divine thing and marry the girl. He knew that the two of us were together of course, though he never addressed this to us.

The breakdown of life after that was immediate. The horror of it is something I will never want to relive and was the darkest period of life for me. When someone you love is 'instructed' by their guru to get married to someone they have no interest in, then you can only imagine not just the pain but also the confusion. However, my partner was so stressed out and had a family to protect (his mom and kid brother were also abhyasis) so he mindlessly went ahead and got married to the girl. I left India a few days prior unable to handle the stress.

Tell me all of you, does any of the above strike you as divine? To me, being a gay person is totally normal and part of who I am. I have no confusion about it. However, Chari did not approve and therefore I am single to this day and the one I love is in a marriage he wants out of. I haven't met him in five years and miss him every waking hour.

So, for those of you who defend Chari to the core, understand that Sahaj Marg is tolerant on its own terms. It has no respect for your individual rights or freedom. That may be fine in a spiritual sense, but considering the ruination of my life and the lead to absolute Godlessness in my life due to Chari's anti-gay stance, it just does not work.

Clark, we need to talk.

K

Cleanup
I encapsulated (most) of the quotes - now one can see just how many quotations there actually are, most of the document.

These need to be replaced with content, and proper headers need to be established for article structure.

I could do this, but have limited knowledge of the organisation, so my replacements would be limited to 1-2 lines summing up the quotations. Sfacets 08:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply to K (Being Gay and Sahaj Marg)
Hi K...

Thanks for you testimony and input. Clark is not coming around any more as he has moved to India. I agree with you and hope that your life will regain it's "God-ness" and it's belief in the ONE-ness of ALL life. No one person has verifiably been appointed by the ONE to represent IT, as Chari claims, although he claims it by "default" (My Master was God's representative so therefore I am), he is not truly and verifiably, the representative of the ONE God. That is only my opinion but to be able to represent the ONE without being the ONE is difficult for me to accept. The "part" is only a pale representative of the "WHOLE" or the "ALL" or the ONE.

So I hope that you will find some foregiveness for Chari and Sahaj Marg and that you will not blame the foibles and failings of humans on the ONE!! We are all "NATURAL". Some of us (myself) are more or less "normal", or of the "norm" but we are all "natural"... Chari should know that!! Spirituality should not divide!!!

Bless you...

Don