Talk:Said Nursî/Archive 1

Ibn arabi (about influenced section)
He is not falower or infulienced from Ibn Arabi, He just answered the questions about "Wahdat ul Vucud". Said Nusi is not promoting Wahdat ul Vucud, he shows the missing parts of that scholar. Also you may read the detailed part at the text below from his books(Gökhan Diler 22:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC))

you may find related part from the book, Eighteenth Letter(link)(Gökhan Diler 22:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)) Letters / Eighteenth Letter - p.108 ( page numbers can be difrent accordingly print or web pages)

comment added by (talk88.247.28.211 (talk) 11:27, 18 December 2009 (UTC) (Gökhan Diler 22:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)) The long article copied from Nursi's book had removed due to inconvenience on discussion page. The one who interested on that can easily check the source you have given.Thank you! rinduzahid (talk)

The "Third Said": POV Notice
The statement "...Adnan Menderes which intended to remove the anti-Islamic laws introduced by the one-party Kemalist rule." is POV. It is a subjective claim that the Kemalist laws were anti-Islamic. Please rephrase. Balbazar 18:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Said Nursi's Work
This section is also POV, to put it mildly. 139.179.134.36 (talk) 12:47, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Origin
Apart from the coyright-question the older version contained factual errors. 132.230.118.123 09:24, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * As a person born and died in Turkey, the ethnicity should be changed to Turkish, I believe. Any objections? Resid Gulerdem 02:11, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

He is Kurdish Origin talked about free Kurdistan How can you say he is Turkish?

The representation of Said Nursi on this side is not very scientificly... 6.2.2007

Most of his works are in Turkish language (albeit in an Ottoman style). We should note he is of Kurdish origin, though. 88.234.10.185 19:44, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Need to clarify English of Bediuzzaman

Just because he was born in Turkey doesn't change his ethnicity, so I am 100% against. --Bijikurdistan 12:16, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

He calls himself of Kurdish Ethnicity in several places of Risale-i Nur. 139.179.206.147 (talk) 00:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

He is ethnicaly Kurdish, but he didn't fight for seperation. The fight against Turkey was lead by Molla Said (another person). During WW 1 Bediüzzaman fought at the Caucasus-front against Russian Army and Armenian Millitia with an own troop he lead. During War he got injured and captured. During custody he denied an offer to take the lead of Kurdish separetist. He could escape custody, fleeing to the West to Berlin and from there to Istanbul.

The article needs to be extended with more details and with referred details of course. So, we should do more than discussing his ethnicity. It is obvious that he is of Kurdish origin. I have added required sources to put an end to the continuous deletion of the word "Kurdish" by some users. It is really getting annoying and it does nothing but decreases the quality of the article. OnurtheAgha (talk) 23:19, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Ethnic diversity of Said Nursi's followers or readers doesn't change his ethnicity or it doesn't make him a Martian. People of tens of different origins read Aristotle but Aristotle is still a Greek. Just as Said Nursi is a Kurd. I'm sorry but that argument(Nursi, wasn't the thinker of just Kurdish origin. His books are read by many origins.) for deleting his ethnic informaiton is just funny. You may be a nationalist of another nation, but please try to be a wikipedian on Wikipedia and stop deleting true and required information. OnurtheAgha (talk) 22:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Nursi's origin is Kurdish maybe, but his books are mostly in Turkish and he lives mostly with Turkish people. Furthermore, he doesnt imply that he is a thinker of Kurdish origin. It's easy to understand from his books that he has nothing with being Kurdish or Turkish. So the first sentence should be revised. I change with my suggestion. --Arslano (talk) 14:49, 25 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Where a man lived or with whom he lived or in what language he wrote his works doesn't change his ethnicity. If he was born a Kurdish, he is a Kurdish forever. Moreover, I've provided a source that explicitly shows Nursî's origin. And, that source is his own book. So, deleting that information is a kind of vandalism. If you really want to contribute, try expanding the article with referenced information, media etc. Or, if you really think that the ethnicity information should be deleted, put forward a sound reason.
 * Discussing his ethnicity, which is obvious, is a bad idea while his article is still a C-Class article. OnurtheAgha (talk) 17:59, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

In order to reach a compromise, can we simply add that his works were written in Ottoman Turkish and Arabic? He undoubtedly was of Kurdish ethnicity but he was not a Kurdish separatist, He did not want the Ottoman Empire to be broken into ever smaller and smaller pieces. He fought for the Ottomans against the Russians and asked the Kurds to unite with the Ottomans and fight for an Islamic Republic, rather than fighting against their "Muslim brothers". The issue of the language he used and later translations were quite important in the later formation of various Nurcu cemaats, so let's get this clear, shall we? Hatice w (talk) 14:35, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

@OnurtheAgha. In the article, it's not saying that "Said Nursi is from a Kurdish origin". Everybody now that he's from Kurdish origin. This is not the topic. The topic is it's written that "Islamic thinker of Kurdish origin" which means he is "just" Islamic thinker of that origin. This approach is not true, you and I and other Said Nursi readers now that he is a Islamic thinker of all Muslims in Turkey and all others in other countries. If you continue to change that phrase without any applicable evidence I'll call an admin. If you do not how to use Wikipedia you can check it out easily. We're establishing an encyclopedia here, not a ordinary ideological book or sth. Be aware, and do not make changes without discuss. --Arslano (talk) 03:41, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I must admit that I have not seen such a resistance to accepting truths as they are. If you realy thought that there is something wrong with the phrase, why did you delete the information instead of rephrasing it? And why did you edit without mentioning it on this page first while you tell us to do so? What you deleted was an accepted phrase. And I feel obliged to say that there is no ideological reason for mentioning his ethnicity. See Isaac Newton, Avicenna, Albert Einstein. They all have their ethnicity mentioned. I have told this earlier but you really try hard not to understand. This is just providing knowledge, what Wikipedia is for. At least, current version of the article should stay until a big expansion. And a last note: I would be really happy if you called an admin, Arslano. OnurtheAgha (talk) 17:56, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I have rephrased the first sentence in order to increase the clarity of the sentence. If you have any questions, please respond on my talk page, and please do not change this edit without consensus. Thank you.--  fetch  comms  ☛ 19:33, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification Fetchcomms. I had been trying to explain some of the users here, but they didn't understand the case. Now everything is OK. Thanks again.

@OnurtheAgha, it's not about the ethnicity. It was about clarification, being a thinker of a specific region and being from a specific region are completely different. Just read this version of the article, and the one that you did. --Arslano (talk) 02:17, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

My edit
It doesn't have to be permanent of course; I was just wondering what people think of it. Khoikhoi 05:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Untitled
Archive note: Originally overwrote the 'My edit' section above in (diff) – 2804:F1...2D:8B49 (talk) 21:59, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Fethullah Gulen and Adnan Oktar (Hatun Yahya) are not follower.Risale-i Nur has special style to serve.On the other hand, Fethullah gulen and Adnan Oktar benefit from that interpretation of Koran.That is important point as against secularism.His method gets just to serve for faith. Sadakat — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.119.88.78 (talk • contribs) 07:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Fethullah Gulen says -in a court- that he is not a follower of Said Nursi (Nurcu) in 1974 to now. So there is no need to add his name in "See Also". He reads Risale-i Nur like other millions of people. And he has a specail community which not belongs Nur communities. --Terennum (talk) 17:26, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

tomb?
as it is noted in the article also place of his grave is unknown, but picture on the right claims its tomb. i think image should be removed.-ArazZeynilitalkcontrib10:03, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

I have added the needed information. No need for removing now. OnurtheAgha (talk) 14:16, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Photo Changing
I have changed the photograph of Said Nursi with a better one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Terennum (talk • contribs) 13:49, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

"Influenced" Section
I think there should be names after "influenced" section. Of course Said Nursî didn't try to influence someone, but he influenced. One can influence others even if he doesn't want to do so. OnurtheAgha (talk) 18:26, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

1924-26 period
I have a very brief mention of Said Nursi in a book, in which it is said that he lived for two years in solitude between 1924-26 in the ruins of an Armenian monastery (not Yedikilise) high up on Mount Varag, near Van. Anyone got more info about this? Meowy 16:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

C-class article
I have downgraded the article from B- to C-class, and I suspect it has never in fact been a B-class article. Discussion of Nursî's scholarship is almost completely missing from the article. In particular, the two areas of his main interests (according to the infobox) dealing with theology are not even menioned in the article text. There is also no corroboration of the listing in the infobox of figures whom he has been influenced by or that he has influenced. __meco (talk) 11:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Kurdish or Arabic?
All sources appear to agree that Said Nursî was a Kurd, but Faraclite keeps removing the reliably sourced information that Said Nursî was Kurdish and insists on adding that he was Arabic.

What to do? The source he or she cites only states that Said Nursî claimed to be a descendant of Arabs who lived some twelve centuries (40 generations) earlier. Arabic ethnicity is not a genetically determined trait with dominant inheritance, and to conclude from this claimed descendance to being Arabic is pure original research. --Lambiam 21:35, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Why not mentioning his original name "Saîd-î Kurdî"? Because his Turkish supporters cannot stand the fact that he is Kurdish? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.214.36.223 (talk) 14:11, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually he called himself Said Nursi after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, so, there you go. --Cerian (talk) 13:30, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

There is scientific evidence that Said Nursi is a descendant from the Prophet. It is awkward and against science to claim he is not. Faraclite (talk) 08:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

He was not a Sufist
The method of Said Nursi which is stated on Risale-i Nur is not based on a Sufi fundamental as he maentions here: Yes, there are two ways of passing from the apparent to reality: One is to enter the intermediate realm of Sufism, and to reach reality by traversing the degrees through spiritual journeying. The Second Way is, through divine favour, to pass directly to reality without entering the intermediate realm of the Sufi way. This is the elevated, direct way particular to the Companions and those who succeeded them. That is to say, the lights which issue from the truths of the Qur’an, and the Words, which interpret those lights, may possess those characteristics, and do possess them. rinduzahid (talk) 22:28, 6 November 2011 (UTC) Another proof for him not to be a sufist through his wiritngs is that: "The Sufis have terms they use among themselves, “annihilation in the shaykh,” “annihilation in the Prophet;” I am not a Sufi, but these principles of theirs make a good rule in our way, in the form of “annihilation in the brothers.” Among brothers this is called “tefânî;” that is, “annihilation in one another.”"Twenty-first flash, forth rule rinduzahid (talk) 18:06, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

His books in Russia
In Russia, his books are illegal, banned outright. Anyone think this is relevant to the article? --69.154.197.61 (talk) 16:13, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Perspectives of Nursi
Theology; Away from the criticism and selection, Said Nursi’s pathway, is to impose to communities of different religious beliefs and practices supported by a strong logical implications and explanations. For example, referring to the five daily prayers, emphasizes that how necessary it is for humanitarian and for religious duty, but ignores that prayers shape, quantity, how much, and how long assumed, as well as details and discussions on it. The same approach may be seen on multiple religious issues as zakat, Islamic veiling, fasting, etc. According to some theological environments, he was in efforts of renovation and restoration of the religion without any debugging of bidats and superstitions, or he himself is in the sources of superstitions.

Nature and events; Said Nursi's insight of natural phenomena, such as earthquake, flood and drought; these events are considered actions of Earth and punishment of the Divine, moving against sinners by the Divine commandments; girls singing on the radio at the time of Tarawih during Ramadan considered as a sin by him. According to repeated Risale-i Nur arguments time by time, Nursi relates places of the earthquakes and their times to conspiracies for service of Risale-i Nur, described as sins of the enemies.

Sociology; Nursi describes western civilization as riotous one, with two branches. One of them capitalism, the other is socialism, later converted to communism and Bolshevism. Capitalism and dissolute civilization, encourages deceptive freedom and openness, socialism is closer to justice of the public and civilization by the understandings of Nursi. Besides, pure and absolute justice is supplied with the sharia, according to him.[4] Bolshevism and communism was defined by Nursi as the great Dajjal of end times.

Political attitudes
According to the narratives expressed by the Histories of Life for him, ( Tarihçe-i Hayat ), Said Nursi, had problematic relationships with authorities before and after The Republic of Turkey. Probably, besides of all other factors, accompanied by a large self-confidence, hillman personality and poor cooperation ability at teamworks was determining component of this as well. Although he is not against the republic in governance, revolutions, especially the closure of dervish lodges, dress (hat) revolution, and secularism that means the abolition of Sharia’s law, draws his anger.

These developments seem to him as a weakness of religious understanding, and obtains duty to fight them. However, according to him, this fight is not with a gun, but with a civilized tool, must be done through persuasion. To do this, instead of dealing with the details, he focuses on faith that means the basis of religion and tends to create works towards strengthening on this topic. Said Nursi, at this time obtains to stay away from daily politics and agendas as a principle.

Said Nursi and women
In Risale-i Nur, women are handled in issues of Islamic veiling, inheritance and in such bets; "six or seven of ten, old or ugly, and do not want to show oldness or ugliness to everyone. Or jealous, relatively more beautiful or ugly, and want veiling naturally, or because rape attack or afraid to fall in such a case, or be accused of it in the eyes of her husband Women’s veiling requirement in sharia is natural, wants to veiling by nature. And, only two or three of them may be found both the young and beautiful, and not be troubled with show off her body." However, women from provincial and cold hometown may be excluded from this imperative provision because they do not excite men. According to Nursi, giving women the half share of men of sharia inheritance law, is righteous and appropriate justice.

From expressions, the natural wear of rural women deriving from working and living conditions as openness by Nursi, may be reached to the conclusion of the way understanding of the Islamic veiling by him, as an "absolute hijab and covers" with no exceptions.

In Nur community, besides other features, women are seen as sources of evils, strifes and troubles, and refuged in Allah from them, three times in the morning and evening every day.

Said nursi and the Risale-i nur collection doesnt see the womans as evil. "Furthermore, love and cherish your wife as a companionable and gracious gift of divine mercy. But do not fasten your love to her physical beauty, which swiftly fades. Rather, woman's most attractive and agreeable beauty is the fineness of character that accompanies the delicacy and refinement peculiar to her. As for her most precious and sweet beauty, it is her earnest, sincere, sublime and luminous compassion. This beautiful tenderness and fineness of character continues and increases until the end of her days. Moreover, that weak and delicate creature's rights of respect will be protected by that love. Otherwise, when her superficial beauty fades the poor woman will lose her rights, even when she most needs them. The Words ( 669 )"

Criticism
Mythological - mystic stories characterized by metaphorical expressions about prophets and of Muhammad narrated along with history. By point of scientific perspective, these stories are popular culture’s creative expressions, and except  cultural evaluations, any realistic values must not be attributed to them. Said Nursi’s point of view of these stories and characters about to attribute them reality, and accepting them totally true and real. An Islamic scholar Ihsan Eliachik declares this; ”There are mythological narrations in the Risale-i Nur abundantly and attributions of miracles to Muhammad not done by him in fact, and acceptance of fabricated narrations for him without critics. For example, ‘19th Letter’, made of 150 pages nearly, hundreds of miracles of Muhammad narrated there, none of them have realistic values. Fabricated for public to show them Prophet extraordinary.”

Theolog Professor Dr. Abdulaziz Bayındır, criticizes Said Nursi’s following arguments; "All sciences are given to him by the prophet in a dream at night as a child, and in a few months for master level, and sending of a person who died 150 years ago to him turban and robe, Imam Ali’s naming parts of the Risale-i Nur, Risale-i Nur’s quotation over arsh and writing down claims, opening to him all the sciences and secrets until the end of the world, writing for him poetry by a man who lived eighth century ago Abdul Qadir Gilani, and another claims;

1-Said Nursi's claiming to be representation of “authority of union” that beyond comprehends of “top scholar” 2 - "Mercy", "Nur ambassador" and "bediüzzaman" definitions made for himself, 3 - Allegations to help those who experienced hardship, 4 – Handling claims of Allah's names and Quran, 5-At each era, appearance claim by different identity 6-To be the largest murshid and mujaddid, 7- To be Mahdi, 8- and to be Messiah

Author Sadettin Merdin's critics; Said Nursi’s identification of M. Kemal Ataturk founder of a secular republic in Turkey, by artificial identity of Sufyani Dajjal created by fabricated hadiths, and usage of treatises that contains irrational and unscientific elements of mythological narrations, weak or fabricated hadiths without debugging, supposing  of some polite kind words as hadith, defensive conception of Islam. And acceptance of irrational hadiths such as expressing the past years of world to the prophets era as 5960, and the whole lifespan of the world of humanity life to be as to about 7000 years.

On the book “Nurculuk Hakkında”  published by presidency of religious affairs, an official institution in Turkey, on the basis of  religious and scientific value of Risale-i Nur, these statements  expressed; “The claims that Risale-i Nur collections was written by inspirations from the unseen, and the interpretation of the Qur'an by esoteric meanings cannot be tolerated  by, and there is no scientific value of them, and even the criticisms of heresy made for them.

Regards 88.250.221.177 (talk) 08:41, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * This piece of information is not only biased but also not written in a proper English. 86.36.66.12 (talk) 09:09, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

These sections are written in order to contribute to Wikipedia’s neutral point of view. However, some of them may be unwanted articles or assessments likely to be unseen by other people. This page had a more objective view by these contributions within the framework of the text. Otherwise, be regarded as a community’s unilateral monography and marked thus. In linguistic problems, some corrections may be done as well.88.250.221.177 (talk) 11:04, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

This article must have been written clearly with the intention of degrading a well-respected Muslim scholar that has been a scope of academic and traditional Islamic scholarship with books written and symposiums organized on him. The sources that article refers to are known with their harsh criticism on Nursi to the point of takfir which increases doubts of the neutrality of the article. rinduzahid (talk) 17:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

References cited in this text are poor
It is clear that some people want to attribute good virtues to Said-i Nursi Kurdi within the text. However, almost all the references cited here were taken from magazines and newspapers which are famously known as the supporters of Fetullah Gulen Movement. Fetullah Gulen who is the head of the Nur cult (Nur Tariqah) originated in Turkey, is best known as a follower of Saidi Nursi Kurdi. None of the references cited here was written by a historian who lived in Kurdi's life time, almost all of them are made up later that they are not based on historical facts but fiction or the cited references lack of historical quality. Websites and magazines cannot be references on historical matters unless they cite historians of the event time, otherwise they are just ways of propaganda. If you have more evidences to prove me wrong you are welcome to provide the original historical records of respectful historians of his time, not of somebody you paid to have a biased "research" on Kurdi.

Vahide, Sukran claims in her book in 2005, "Said Nursi heard that a British Secretary for the Colonies, Gladstone, had even said in a newspaper: "So long as the Muslims have the Qur'an, we shall be unable to dominate them..." Such threats caused him to declare: "I shall prove and demonstrate to the world that the Qur'an is an undying, inexhaustable Sun!" thus he decided to write his masterpiece, Risale-i Nur." There are two references cited for this sentence. One of them is about a talk show for the BBC radio, claiming that Gladstone said these words. Let's assume that Gladstone said those words however, it is still a complete mystery that how Vahide, Sukran attributed Nursi's words about Qur'an was declared against Gladstones'. So, it is either fiction or lacks of respectful referencing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.39.29 (talk) 00:03, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Sabri Efendi
In criticism section, it says Sabri efendi wrote a book on 'Nurculuk' in 1964. But the problem is Sabri efendi died in 1954 see on turkish wiki. Even Neda Armaner (who wrote several books to criticize Nurculuk) claims somebody used his name to publish that book.Yakamoz51 (talk) 07:39, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Good point. I had included that because the book was still published under his name, which was a fact, although it was probably a hoax. Removing that part, since it's not credible at all. Thanks. Ithinkicahn (talk) 20:19, 7 February 2014 (UTC)