Talk:Sailing stones

Split from Racetrack Playa
This article was split from Racetrack Playa. Edit history from before June 5, 2007 can be found in that article. -- MisterHand 14:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Video of water flowing across the surface
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1hoiHvOeGc Seems like this should be mentioned in the article Boonukem 20:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, that video shows how the rocks move. Mystery solved 198.6.46.11 20:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Not really. There's no footage of the rocks actually moving. Until it's verified experimentally (probably by getting someone to sit out on likely nights and watch), this hypothesis remains untested (albeit likely). Also, I don't think YouTube counts as a credible source. Maltrich 05:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Maltrich using your logic then where is the conclusive proof that the photos hold? this is bollocks and is no myth at all, this entire entry should be removed.Expat Justin (talk) 16:27, 1 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Looks pretty conclusive. I'm actually kind of disappointed. I had hoped it would be gremlins or something.  –Justin Force 18:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * i doubt that a thin film of water moving that slowly could move 100-lb rocks hundreds of feet. 71.60.151.41 (talk) 19:18, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Why the heck doesn't someone just put a webcam taking pictures a couple times a second near a bunch of rocks? Wouldn't that solve this puzzle? --Robotbeat (talk) 21:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * In regards to 71.60.151.41, glaciers can do this easily to entire mountains, so I can see a little boulder presenting almsot no resistance if it is ice/water flow. 137.122.72.15 (talk) 21:31, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

I've never taken part in a discussion on Wiki before, so please forgive me if I don't know all of the rules. I didn't know until today that this was happening, and found it quite intriguing. I don't however see the mystery. As a mechanic, I have used a greased board to move very large objects across a level surface with ease. Objects weighing hundreds of pounds can be moved with one finger, and once in motion are more difficult to stop than they were to start. This video shows one part of the mechanical process that nature uses to accomplish this feat. I'm no physicist, but this seems pretty simple.

In late winter melting snow and rain flood the level surface. The cold wind blowing unhindered across the flat freezes the surface water around the rocks locking them into an ice sheet, but underneath the ice, the water is liquid and mixed into the sediment creating a very slick layer of goo (greased board) if you will. The water coming from the nearby hills is still liquid however, because the hills break up the wind. As the temperature rises the ice sheets start to melt and break up. This melting also adds to the volume of liquid under the ice that the rocks are locked into, which literally causes the rocks to start rising or floating with the ice sheet. When there is enough liquid to lift the stone, it's friction with the ground is reduced to the point that it takes very little force to put it in motion. The excess water necessary to float the stones and ice would only be present during the late winter thaws. The stones are basically levitating over the liquid in the ice which lifts them slightly as the water level beneath increases. The 90 mph winds not only keep the ice frozen on top, but literally allow the stones to act as sails, catching the wind and propelling the stones and ice across the goo. This is evident by the way to soil is raised up on the leading edge of the stone, just as the grease is on the board used to move a large heavy object. The moon passing over and causing a tidal effect of ground swell can also contribute to making the level surface slope slightly allowing gravity to assist the wind and water for the initial start of motion.

The truly amazing thing to me is that the wind, water, and sliding ice don't erode the tracks left by the stones for several years.

It's not surprising that this hasn't been seen, since the conditions necessary for this to occur would not only be rare but would be quite inhospitable for humans.

It would likely take several days, if not weeks, of very cold temps to create a thick enough ice sheet to support the weight of larger stones, and then sudden thawing or heavy rain to add the necessary water volume to float the stone in it's ice raft. It's clear that the stones are floating by the one stone that was being studied which disappeared without leaving a track and was found quite a distance away, where I would presume that it finally thawed enough and fell through the ice raft that floated it away. Furthermore, the fact that the stones rarely seem to tumble or even change orientation indicates that they are ice locked when they move. Lunar gravity would cause the stones to move backward (back tracking), and the breaking ice and wind changes, and varying weights would explain the stones starting in the same direction together and then suddenly changing direction or stopping independent of each another.

To simplify this, imagine a pan of water outside in winter with a stone in it, that freezes solid. Now warm it (low elevation and geo-thermal heating) and add a little water (rain and/or thawing). The stone floats in the ice, but the thaw allows the tail of the stone to hang blow the ice. Now either tip the pan (the moon) or blow on it hard (90 mph winds), and the ice raft will move across the pan with the stones tail dragging along the floor of the pan. There are only a few places on earth level enough for this to occur, and the conditions of temperature, lunar gravity variants, wind and water would have to be just right. I'm not surprised that it is rare for this to occur in nature, or that it has never been seen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Leeznewz (talk • contribs) 15:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

missing word?
there appears to be a word missing from the paragraph about "Karen":
 * The stone may have created its 570 straight and old track

570 what - feet? i don't want to guess, so i hope someone who knows what they're talking about will fix this.

as long as i'm here: the part about "certain conditions are thought to be required" seems to promote one of the theories about the stones, which seems kind of "POV-ish". the effort (below it) to present different theories covers that theory; does it need to be presented twice?

interesting read - thanks Sssoul (talk) 15:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I've heard about empty (still pretty heavy though) railroad cars being moved on their tracks by wind, and those winds aren't anywhere near the power of those in Death Valley, I suppose. So methinks this is just a case of the soil having very little friction at times. 80.221.44.11 (talk) 10:32, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

And what point is the "(low to high tens of meters)" in the "Tracks are often tens to hundreds of feet (low to high tens of meters) long..."? Low or high tens of meters, it says they go tens to hundreds. While it could be edited to low tens to hundreds, I don't think that level of detail is necessary.--Paddling bear (talk) 18:35, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Tristan Effect
did some google-searching, apparently it's legit; found a number of references to it. will add relevant links here. someone who has more time (& knows how) add them as in-line citations, pls?)

will also check cross-language as i get time...

Lx 121 (talk) 10:58, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

http://www.google.com/search?q=tristan%20racetrack%20playa%20&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

http://www.scienceray.com/Earth-Sciences/Geology/The-Mysterious-Sailing-Stones.585347

it's a beginning will add more (out of time for now)

Lx 121 (talk) 13:47, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Heya, Lx 121. I still think it's not legit - the only two related pages I could find were (apparently there are lots of pages with "racetrack" and "tristan", but not "racetrack playa" and "tristan effect") :
 * The first is a forum post.
 * The second is an article, but written after the "Tristan Effect" was added to this article's web page, which was this edit on Jan 24 (so it's possible the article just repeated the Tristan Effect from the wikipedia article).
 * Also, googling ' "tristan effect" "university of zurich" ' returns no results aside from the wikipedia article and the same two pages posted above. Finally, not to get all POV about it, but I find the idea that cooling and heating air in a rock will provide enough air pressure to move that rock outlandish and unlikely enough to consider it untrue until sourced and cited for realz, especially when other methods of propulsion (like the 90 mph sustained winds during winter storms mentioned in the article) are stronger and more realistic. Kjl (talk) 18:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm reverting your reverting of my editing, but it's all in good faith; I don't mean to start a revert war or anyting :) Closer inspection on google hits returns no references to "tristan effect" and "racetrack playa" except for two (non-notable) pages written after the wiki edit, and nothing related to the University of Zurich in relation to the effect. Kjl (talk) 19:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

other moving stones
other moving stones should be mentioned. In the Atacama Desert there are also moving stones, called "Strange Rubbing Boulders". They move because of earth quakes.

earth quakes
Maybe earth quakes are also here the reason for the movement (look at: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?_=1318531724342&i=earth+quake+death+valley&fp=1&incTime=true)--92.203.76.233 (talk) 18:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you have a reliable source discussing this as a theory? - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 19:57, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Could it be a hoax?
Maybe a group of locals are doing this to attract attention from people into paranormal activities.173.58.96.84 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:22, 6 December 2012 (UTC)


 * No, it's an ice flow. The valley lightly fills up, then freezes. The ice flow pushes the rock, which drags against the sand. The ice then melts, the water then evaporates. The mud hardens which keeps its shape for a long time. The event occurs during the "winter" periods of the valley.

-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.13.64 (talk) 22:58, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

There aren't any locals. It's an inhospitable desert. 63.82.23.2 (talk) 21:48, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

opinions
about merging back to Racetrack Playa Can someone give me a reason why this was split off? This is specific to RTP and I think it should go back home. I will be requesting this to happen from the PTB in the next week or so. Cap020570 (talk) 17:42, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree. While the most famous sailing stones are at Racetrack Playa, that's not the only place they occur. For example, they also occur at Little Bonnie Claire Playa, near Death Valley – see and . Mojoworker (talk) 06:43, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, then, if that is so why is the entire article about Racetrack Playa? Just saying. Would you be willing to pull some other references in and make it about the other places? Cap020570 (talk) 03:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The phenomenon is most pronounced at Racetrack and that area has seen the most research. And no doubt, these things are pretty rare... I did add some information about Bonnie Claire Playa to the article. Mojoworker (talk) 03:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Didn't Arthur C Clarke suggest this and study it with time lapse back in 1980? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv8wY1toFm8&index=1&list=PLC150766C86622B96https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv8wY1toFm8&index=1&list=PLC150766C86622B96 2001:8003:F205:101:B495:2884:8E80:3A31 (talk) 10:08, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Picture of frozen shallow water covering Racetrack playa
I visited racetrack around Christmas December 2013 just after Richard Norris documented rock movements. I was not aware of their work that time. I had taken pictures of the shallow water covering Racetrack playa which froze overnight and melted in the morning, contributing to the rock movements (as explained by Richard's research team). If it helps, I can contribute to this page by providing those pictures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmahto (talk • contribs) 23:01, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It couldn't hurt. Go ahead and upload them here or to Commons. Mojoworker (talk) 03:53, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Great article
Thanks. Beautiful prose and fascinating topic. --58.111.120.18 (talk) 17:16, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)
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Static versus dynamic friction not relevant
I removed the bracketed part of this sentence:
 * Such gusts are thought to be the initiating force, while momentum and sustained winds keep the stones moving, possibly as fast as a moderate run (only half the force required to start a stone sailing is needed to keep it in motion).

The last two links, to static friction and dynamic friction, don't seem applicable given that the rock are moving on a muddy rather than solid surface. Chriswaterguy talk 07:46, 7 May 2018 (UTC)