Talk:Sailor Saturn/Archive 1

Proposed Merges

 * Strong Agree on all three. With the exception of Mistress 9 (which is barely past stub quality) they're all stubs. Equipment used by a single character and alter egos do not deserve their own pages. Shingen 21:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Seconded - I agree, all three topics should be merged with the main Hotaru Tomoe page. Since they are all related then they all belong in the same place for easy accessability. --Heart rasp 08:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC) ambivalent existence


 * Support. Also, please do not break the flow of the talk page. This discussion should be at the bottom of the page, not above it, regardless of the merge proposition importance. -- ReyBrujo 15:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Neutral - Kinda makes the page a bit long, doesn't it?70.68.115.11 08:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The Silence Glaive article had no information in it that wasn't here already. It now redirects. I'm also working on a Princesses page, possibly on its own or possibly as part of the Silver Millennium article, which will take care of that problem for each of the senshi profiles. --Masamage 19:32, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Height
Wait, should her height even be listed in the first place if it's not "official"? WhisperToMe 03:51, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Henshin?
Why doesn't her Henshin (transformation) appear in the anime??

---Her henshin doesn't appear in the anime because the animators "cleverly" made sure that she never needed to transform. This was done usually by Hotaru appearing in Sailor form when a battle begins so a henshin sequence would not be needed. Why was this done? Sailor Saturn technically shows up in the S arc and the Stars arc. However, although she figured very prominently in the S arc she never became a Sailor Senshi until the final episode (read: She didn't really fight at all). Her true battles would be held in the Stars arc...but...the Stars arc not only was rushed (I believe) but they had to change animation studios (or something along those lines) (PS: This accounts for the style changes between SuperS and Stars). Bottom Line: The animators were lazy and didn't bother to make a henshin sequence for her.

In fact "Super" Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto never get new henshin sequences either.

Also, Saturn never had a Henshin like the earlier Outers. In one of the games, Saturn was given "Saturn Planet Power Make Up", but in the original Manga, Saturn Henshined by the combination of the 3 Talisman. It wasn't until the end of the Dream Manga arc (aka SuperS) that she henshined so that we saw it. In other words, Naoko left it out, so the Animators didn't make it up. Why? I dunno.. they made up a bunch of other stuff.

Error
Sailor Saturn's Silence Glaive doesn't bring about "The Silence" (a term that only appeared in the anime). Doesn't Mistress 9 (aka The Messiah of Silence) bring about the silence? I'm gonna change this right now... I'm pretty sure (check Dies Gaudii because I'm too lazy to...) that Sailor Saturn is associated with "destruction" rather than "silence". Then again, I haven't had anything to do with Bishojo Senshi Sailor Moon for a few years now...so...I could be wrong. Anyway, somebody answer me on this.

~ response from kylu ~ In the manga, as far as I recall, she's responsible for the silence due to her "bringing down the silence glaive" (see http://antares7.absoludicrous.net/drr/ for clarifications, though that article mostly involves clarifications between DRR and her "bringing down the glaive"). I haven't seen the anime, so have never heard of "The Silence" attack. I'd like to point out to anyone who bothers reading this, btw, that Sailor Saturn doesn't restart the world, she only ends it. Sailor Moon is the one that brings the world back, only after Saturn's destruction has ended.

A few edits.
I made a few copy-edits here and there, most notably I reworded an attack description for clarity. "Death Reborn Revolution - Sailor Saturn used this attack against Pharaoh 90. Sometimes erroneously believed to be the same thing as the Silence. Death Reborn Revolution is also believed to be the same power that caused her rebirth as a child, and Sailor Moon Super, though tried to help her and did recover Sailor Saturn's reborn body, had no part in the destruction of Pharoah 90."

Changed to: "Death Reborn Revolution - Sometimes erroneously believed to be the same thing as The Silence, Sailor Saturn used this power to single-handedly destroy Pharaoh 90. (Super Sailor Moon, while present during the battle, had no part in the destruction of Pharaoh 90.) Death Reborn Revolution is also believed to be the same power that caused her rebirth as a child." --Jade Keira 04:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Changed again.. The current name of the attack is Death Ribbon Revolution. Not Reborn. This misconception comes from the fact that too many people rely on the Anime interpertation of Sailor Saturn as well as misreading the Katakana. In the Manga where Hotaru uses this attack, she is the Senshi of Ruin or Destruction. It's in the Anime that they changed her into the Senshi of Death and Rebirth. In the Manga, if you read it, Hotaru clearly uses the power to destroy the entire world, meanwhile Neo-Queen Selenity is remained outside of the Gates of Time to heal the world after Saturn is done. This is why Saturn is also reborn. Also, to cross reference the Katakana, in the Tokyo Mew Mew Manga all their attacks use "Ribbon" and contain the exact same Katakana as seen here. It's Ribbon. Danny Lilithborne 21:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Read this: Description: This power was used to drain the energy from Pharaoh 90. The kanji used with this manuver means 'death world change' but the furigana shows that it should be spoken as Death Reborn Revolution.

 That's Re-BO-RI-N or Reborn, this picture is from a Game.  It shows RI-BO-N, from the actual MANGA.  Now go up to the top of this page, put your cursor over RI-BO-N. It is read RIBBON. This is Tokyo Mew Mew, a different manga, but it also uses the exact same Katakana.  Alex GLover's translation of Sailor Moon. Yes, he disagrees with me about Ribbon vs. Reborn, I don't care. I argued with him about it, but if you read what Saturn says: '"I am the messenger from the depths of death. Carrier of the protection of the planet of ruin, Saturn. The soldier of silence. Sailor Saturn."' '"It's beautiful," says Saturn. "The suffering of the moment of destruction. Now! Right away! The guide to death, Sailor Saturn, will lead to the world of silence and nothingness!"' '"I don't feel despair," Saturn says. "Along with death, there is always hope and rebirth. You will cause that, Super Sailor Moon."
 * Wrong. Read this: The Katakana says "Ri-Bo-n". It's NOT stated as "REBORN" which would require an extra R. Also it uses RIBBONS.

"Sailor Saturn...!"

"Sailor Moon, because you opened up the power of the legendary moon chalice and the Mystical Silver Crystal, you can save this planet. For my rebirth, I eliminate death and destruction. Soon the Tokyo where the Silver Millennium is will dwell on this chosen land. The sacred power is on your side. Sailor Pluto! Forever shut the passage to the other world!" '

Saturn was Reborn due to Sailor Moon's powers. As you can see, Saturn openly states that Sailor Moon will CAUSE the hope and Rebirth. That's Moon's power, healing. Saturn's is destruction.

OH and FYI, ALex Glover ALSO translates Serenity as Selenity, which means that the misconception that is taken down is 100% wrong. It should be Selenity, even by Glover. He's good about most stuff, he's just wrong about Ribbon vs. Reborn.
 * I got egg on my face about this one. I went back and checked and yep, it's Selenity.  I'm going to have to do more research, before I continue this. Danny Lilithborne 02:14, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * OH yeah. Death Ribbon Revolution does more than weaken Pharoah 90. It destroys the entire world. It was the attack that destroyed the Silver Millenium in the Manga at least. It's an extremely powerful attack (it takes roughly 10 pages to completely in the Manga). During the attack, Hotaru actually smacks Pharoah 90 a couple of times and she appears to delay it a little so that Super Sailor Moon could gather the energy to heal the universe and give Pluto time to do "Dark Dome Close", closing the gates of time and protecting the other Senshi from her deadly attack. (CureWhite 04:07, 28 February 2006 (UTC))


 * Sorry, I still must disagree with you about 'ribbon' vs. 'reborn'. "Reborn" would not be transliterated as "リボリン" (RIBORIN). It would be "リボーン" (RIBO-N). (Again, Google is your friend. If you do a search for "リボーン" (RIBO-N), lots of results with "reborn" in the URL pop up. I wouldn't chalk that up to coincidence.) "Ribbon" could be "リボン" (RIBON). Also, you seem to have mixed up the game attack. The katakana in that cap read: "デスリボン・レボリューション" (DESURIBON ・REBORYU-SHON). I'd take that to mean "Death Ribbon Revolution." And, despite the page from Tokyo Mew Mew that you cite, I still feel that 'reborn', and not 'ribbon', is the most common transliteration of "リボーン" (RIBO-N). Again, I feel compelled to point you to Ian Miller's site: Gemtiger 02:24, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

In SM: anthor story The attack is used as one of her moves. She says it and it is clearly REBORN. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 21:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Japanese language student here: It's what's termed as a pun, something that is hard for people to seem to get. You know, like "no" in Tsukino is a pun for "野” and "の” which means civilian and of respectively. Like Selenity and Serenity is a pun. Like a hononym in Japanese that does not translate into English. Things are not so linear. Takeuchi LOVES puns. She puts them in about every work she's ever done, from The Cherry Project with naming the main character Chieri to even Toki Meca, where puns ar ever day part of the humor. She loves putting them in humor sections, and has a great sense of word play. Technically the Kanji say "reborn" not ribbon, however, ribbons are shooting out. What is that? A pun! Why fight when Ian Miller, the source of this mess, (for those of who are die-hard Diies Gaudii fans) can't tell a pun if it smacked him upside the head, because he CAN'T READ JAPANESE. He can cipher, sure, and sure Sailor Saturn is his favorite, but he doesn't understand the first thing about furigana v. Kanji. So mark it up as a pun, but leave the "reborn" in there. Because this argument is useless. A Pun is a pun. If someone uses I tear a bag and I tear up at movies in a way it's a pun, are you going to argue which is which (especially that pun doesn't translate back into Japanese)? It's a hononym, so leave it. (The "a" in Ami is a pun too, Asian and Second as well as a way to fulfill a sound quotient. Second, as second planet, second soldier to appear in Sailor Moon Series. Asian as in quintessential Asian.) Not everything in Japanese can be packaged neatly in English, and trying to do so is futile. Keep reborn and footnote the sucker. --Hitsuji Kinno 04:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Silence Glaive
Umm.. The Silence Glaive is in fact a Glaive. A glaive is a pike weapon, which means it's a long staff with a sharp blade at the end. That's exactly what the Silence Glaive is.

Oh yeah proof that the Silence Glaive is a GLAIVE.

Also called a glave, couteau de breche, and fauchard/fouchard (a glaive modified with added spurs on the dull side of the blade). The glaive was a medieval European polearm with a long knife-like blade. The blade generally curved backward and was sharpened on the convex side; it was primarily a slashing and chopping weapon. Glaives were often used to protect archers, crossbowmen, and gunners while they reloaded. Outside of combat they were a popular processional weapon and therefore many had ornately carved blades.



Hotaru is a Cyborg in the Manga, at least intially
Since I cannot make any real changes to ANY of these pages without being challenged by people who have no proof and yet ridicule everything I say and change, I am adding that Hotaru was in fact a cyborg in the Manga originally. The accident that caused her to become Mistress 9 in the Anime actually caused her to be a Cyborg in the Manga as her father, Professor Tomoe, rebuilt her. (CureWhite 04:11, 28 February 2006 (UTC))

Silence Glaive Surprise
I believe that no one actually knows whether or not Silence Glaive Surprise would end Saturn's life. Chibi Moon stops Saturn from bringing her glaive down, something that she attempted well after she said Silence Glaive Surprise. Perhaps it's a prep for bringing her glaive down, however, Chibi Moon only cared to stop Saturn right when she was about to drop her glaive. Because of this, the dropping of her glaive signifies the ending of her life. If it were the actual phrase, Chibi Moon would have stopped her in mid sentence. Plus, Chibi Moon roughly states, "If you do that, you'll die" after stopping the glaive on the way down.

So is it part of bringing down the glaive? Is it a prep for bringing down the glaive? Can Saturn still bring down the glaive and end her life without saying the phrase? I think it's unclear.

Another argument is that most attacks in the Sailor Moon universe occur immediatly after the incantation. The dropping of the glaive after Silence Glaive Surprise does not. However, a bright ball of light that can crack the stone beneath Saturn does.

Messiah of Silence
witch attack does the silence and end the world and does misstres 9 have the same abilty?


 * Bringing down the Silence Glaive can destroy a world. It is seen in the manga and not in the anime, however, official animation books have cited Saturn with the ability to destroy a world/"bring the silence" by bringing down the Silence Glaive. Mistress 9 is not said to have the same ability. She is a different person. The only thing she has in common with Hotaru is that Mistress 9 takes over Hotaru's body. —This unsigned comment was added by 66.189.181.219 (talk • contribs).

"Eternal" Sailor Saturn
I am fairly sure that Eternal Sailor Saturn is a fan-created term. She never has the title Eternal or Star anywhere in the manga. In fact, in the manga she's not even called Super. She gets a different version of her uniform, but she doesn't have a new name. For support, look at the Stars all-character poster. Sailor Chibimoon's picture has "Super Sailor Chibimoon" written next to it, indicating that she is not an Eternal or Star senshi. If Chibimoon isn't Eternal, why should Saturn be? Also, that same picture says "Sailor Saturn" next to Saturn's picture. If they were going to include Chibimoon's title, you'd think they would have included Saturn's. Yumecosmos

pharoh 90
she was the only sailor shenshi apart from sailor moon to beat a end of series monster she killed pharoh 90 i think it should be mentiond —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.33 (talk • contribs).

Foreign names really needed?
Please discuss here whether to include foreign names when they do not match the english name. Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 03:37, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Mistress 9
Please discuss the proposed merging of these articles at Talk:Mistress 9. --Masamage 20:30, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Princesses Article
Just so you all know, I've made a new article at Princesses (Sailor Moon). The merge notices are gone now, because that group of stubs has been cleared up. Now that it's done, please feel free to edit and cite to your heart's content! ^_^ -Masamage 20:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

-- Is a princess page really warranted? All the information contained on the page can be found in the biographies for the individual characters. Aside from castle names, nothing is known about the Senshi in their 'princess' forms. It seems like a waste to create a new article for the purpose of repeating information and listing gown colors.


 * See discussion on the Talk:Princesses (Sailor Moon) page. --Masamage 05:20, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Consistency
This article is being edited for consistency with the Ami Mizuno, Rei Hino, Makoto Kino, Minako Aino, Haruka Tenoh, Michiru Kaioh, and Setsuna Meioh articles, as part of the new WikiProject, and as discussed in Talk:Sailor Moon. Stay tuned! :) --Masamage 20:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Mostly done! Like the other outer senshi, it does need some rewriting, though happily not much. Whoever wrote this before was pretty good. I won't be online tomorrow, but I'll give it a shot in Notepad or something and work it in the day after. Thanks, everyone~ --Masamage 01:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Double Spoiler tagging
One should be erased. --Hitsuji Kinno 17:04, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

In "Other forms" section
Unlike the Princess and her court, the Outer Senshi were reborn on earth as adults, with the knowledge of Sailor Saturn and the terrible powers that she had, as well as the eventual new Moon Kingdom known as Crystal Tokyo.

Umm... How is it possible to be reborn as an adult? Just because their parents weren't mentioned, it doesn't mean they never had any. - Saturn Yoshi  THE VOICES 09:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point; reborn is probably the wrong word. I'm pretty sure this is true in the manga, but off the top of my I can't remember the source. Anyone else have it? If not I can look around. --Masamage 16:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Luna said they reincarnated, I think Volume 9? She said that Neptune and Uranus weren't supposed to have been reincarnated at all. (reincarnate is more technical, because there in incarnation and reincarnation...). However it never mentioned that they came back as adults--not once. Perhaps it *could* be argued for Setsuna, but that's under heavy dispute at the moment. Besides, Hotaru came back as a child and was raised as a child. (She's an outer too) It's just that they seem to have all be reincarnated and born in the proper order. Quite a large feat for one crystal... The manga, however, does mention that the final destruction came from Sailor Saturn. (I think it's volume 10). Anyhow, I don't think there is proof either way Haruka and Michiru lack parents. They do have benefactors. --Hitsuji Kinno 07:12, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Image
All other manga images in the stats has a domestic form to them, thus I propose that the current image be changed to this one: http://mangastyle.net/book3/3-05.jpg --Hitsuji Kinno 04:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Editing and clean up.
The profile section looked horrid--there was general info mixed up with manga and anime. It was very hard to read and was confusing as to what constituted which version. So I rewrote it, added some info, etc. Some of the info can be moved to variations as needed. I did cut one line, because I didn't know how to integrate it: The anime is slightly more vague in its allusions, largely due to the darker aspects of Hotaru's personality being affected by an evil entity. If someone can figure that one out, go ahead, I don't really mind. I just wanted to organize it. I'll be adding references later since this page needs several, for example, Keiko Tomoe, Souichi Tomoe, the age of Hotaru and the stat backing. So be patient about that since I have to filter through the other profiles and do the same (It's rather time consuming). --Hitsuji Kinno 08:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

wording... ?
Under visions and projections: While she was reaching former age in Dream arc, Haruka did it with her as Michiru referred to it as gardening with Hotaru. I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. It's wordy, but it doesn't sound very good. It almost sounds like Haruka did it with her as she was aging and then told Michiru that it was gardening with Hotaru (as justification)! O.o;; This is not good at all... kind of sounds like a pedophilia hentai Yuri fic. Could the owner of this sentence step forward and clarify or should we just cut it? --Hitsuji Kinno 15:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Didn't Haruka just hang out with Hotaru and watch her use her powers as she grew? --Masamage 19:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it refers to the manga... and I think it's a reference to the intelligence that Hotaru gains, but I'm not 100% sure... So what do we do with the sentence in the meantime? I don't want to exactly cut it, since there seems to be some point to it all, but I do want to figure out what the exact quote it's referring to... Do you or anyone have any idea what its supposed to be aiming at? (Haruka watched Hotaru grow rapidly in the manga and acted as "father" to her.) The sentence is confusing though as it stands... --Hitsuji Kinno 05:38, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, here we go. Act 39, quoted from Alex Glover's translation:
 * ''"Are you doing well in that game where you raise the solar system?" asks Michiru. "What role are you taking, Haruka?"
 * "Hotaru is letting her power go wild, alone," Haruka says. "I'm in the role of 'controller,' and check her power."
 * So there's that. I don't know where the "gardening" thing comes from, though it's extremely familiar; I'll keep looking. --Masamage 19:51, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It might be from the anime when she has the solar system up...? I'm not sure the placement of the sentence made it vague as to which version it was talking about, but that might be worth a shot. I definitely want to include it if it's important. And I'd prefer to get a quote over referring to a quote. (My next wave will be quoting from the sources directly... not overly, just enough so it gives enough of a sprinkle of authenticity). --Hitsuji Kinno 04:28, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hitsuji Kinno's Overedit
Just been looking through, and I noticed that Hotaru no longer has some information I personally can verify, at least one of her profile headings is blank, and the majority of the recent information is from Hitsuji Kinno, who has pretty much written most of the current article on his own... While I appreciate his work on the article, We all worked on it at some time, and I'd like for someone to put back in the verifiable information that Hitsuji mistakenly removed in his purge, and to double check the rest, so that it becomes a Wikipedia article, and not Hitsuji's Hotaru Tomoe page... --Sheng.Long 200X 00:26, 3 November 2006 (UK Time)


 * She has been in very good communication with WikiProject Sailor Moon, and the need for massive edits to this article reflects consensus. If you have an issue, please address the exact items you think should be in the article, rather than making it personal. --Masamage 00:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The only line I cut out I noted. Most of the work I did was moving around info and rewording on this particular article. Most of the information was not cut, merely moved, or rephrased to reflect a more even keel (this is a Hotaru Tomoe article, not a Hotaru Tomoe Anime article). So if you think information was cut, please be specific on what was cut--because I added a lot of info and separated manga and anime in the edits. The main issue I had with the previous draft was that it 1. did not cite its sources 2. did not separate manga and anime in a clear fashion. I try to get clearance for controversial things and make notes of changes in the talk. I have no problem with other people editing on top of me, as long as they cite sources and keep the versions separate in the process. I did try to keep most of the info though. If you look some of it was moved. As for the Stats, the stats had to be revised according to standards which were previously agreed upon. Unless you can cite a source for adding them back in, generally you shouldn't. So I invite you to tell what as cut and how you dispute them instead of being vague--don't take this as a challenge or a personal vendetta, just curiosity on how to improve the article. --Hitsuji Kinno 05:35, 5 November 2006 (UTC)