Talk:Sailor Senshi/Archive 1

Numbering of characters
You may have seen this at other places on the Internet that I used to frequent. I always refer to the individual Sailor Senshi by number and not by name, and I reflected this "numbering scheme" in the picture that I just put into this article. If you want to change or delete the caption of that picture, feel free to do so, but please ask beforehand, either on this page or on my talk page, why I have this numbering scheme in the first place, how I devised it, and/or how other people have responded to it in the past, if I have not already explained it to you in the past. Denelson83 07:33, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * See also User talk:Denelson83/Sailor Moon. Denelson83  19:56, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I may not be the first who have wondered about this, but how come "Sailor Moon" is "Sailor Moon", instead of "Sailor Tellus", which would have been more logical? ^^
 * Takeuchi-san's choice, I guess. Denelson83  23:03, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Disambiguation
Actually, Senshi redirects here. A disambiguation link that has been recently removed makes sense, but with different words, like ''Sailor redirects here. For the professional wrestler, see...''. Or make Senshi a disambiguation page with two links. -- ReyBrujo 18:19, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of "Senshi"

 * Could someone explain this to me? This article (or Sailor Moon, not sure) claims that "senshi" has no particular meaning, but I see it used a lot in other anime, and it's translated into "warrior".  Thanks in advance. Danny Lilithborne 06:19, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * According to Gjiten: 戦士 (せんし) (n) soldier; combatant; warrior; (P); -- ReyBrujo 07:14, 7 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Quite correct. I've attempted to clarify the section of this article that looks like it might have prompted that confusion. --Aponar Kestrel (talk) 07:36, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

The word, セーラー戦士 (Sērā Senshi) means, "Sailor Warrior". --PJ Pete


 * When referring to Sailor Moon. セーラー戦士 (Sērā Senshi) refers to Sailor Soldier in the Anime, and Sailor Guardian in the Manga. Senshi (戦士) by itself in a normal context and in the latest Japanese dictionaries translates as: soldier, combatant, warrior. Obviously though it can mean whatever you want. Especially since both Naoko and Toei decided to have Bishōjo (美少女) meaning "Pretty" instead of the proper translation which is: Beautiful Girl. Fighter4luv 14:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "Senshi" has been officially translated to "Soldier" for all of Sailor Moon, including the manga and excluding the live-action series. --Masamage 18:12, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge of Sailor Wars
I propose merging in the Sailor Wars article, as most of the information there is covered here already. If no one objects, I'll do this Friday, September 8th. --Masamage 04:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's only 1 am, and I try to wait until later than this, but this particular merge seems pretty noncontroversial, as it involves the addition of just one word. Moving ahead. --Masamage 07:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Not mentioned
As far as I can see, the only Senshi who aren't either mentioned or linked to here are Cosmos and Chibi Chibi Moon. I'll add those tomorrow, unless anyone wants to go for it sooner. --Masamage 05:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes thats true but other senshi have no info and that is more inportent I propose we add a page for "Other Senshi" that inculudes info on senshi like, Demios, Phobios, Buttress, and other "Little known senshi" The site Shrine of little known senshi has good info on them.Lego3400: The Sage of Time 16:29, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd rather put those at List of minor Sailor Moon characters and link out to it. That's what it's for. --Masamage 01:55, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

No MAKE UP! said.
(since this applies to all senshi I put this here, if its in the wrong place please move it) Instead of saying that "In the english Dub she does not say MAKE-UP!" 5 times on each page. how about includeing a note that says they never say it unless other wise noted.Lego3400: The Sage of Time 01:31, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Good idea...I feel like it has enough immediate relevance (since the henshin sequences and other powers are all about spoken words) to stay in the Senshi articles. However, each bio should only mention that once, either before or after the list of transformations. --Masamage 04:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Notably, though, the Inner Senshi transformed...
Notably, though, the Inner Senshi transformed into their Super forms under their own power while the Outer Senshi had to rely on the help of a crystal to transform into their Super forms. This is not quite true - in the manga and anime Saturn powers up the Outers, and in the anime, wasn't it Pegasus who helped the Inners' tranformation? (I'm a little foggy on the last.) --KagamiNoMiko 10:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Saturn thing is right, but I'm foggy about how the Inners powered up, too... Looks like it's time to dig around in Hitoshi Doi's summaries... --Masamage 16:14, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It was indeed Pegasus who got the Inners into their super forms. --  Denelson83  02:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It was in the episode where Fish-eye used a fake pegasus to put doubts into the Senshi's minds. When the pegasus remless trapped Sailor Moon and Chibi Moon in a dome, the real pegasus pleaded with the other Senshi to open their hearts to him and to believe in him so that he could give them stronger powers.  From that moment on, they used their new henshin wands and the "Crystal Power Make-up!" phrase.  - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 06:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Soldier or Senshi?
While we're at Mask/Kamen, let's vote for this too. Which term should we use?

In this case, I actually vote in favor of Senshi, for a few reasons. The first is that the translation of senshi seems to vary a lot depending on where you look, so this sidesteps that problem. That's the big deal of it for me.

The second thing is that it gets 83,000 Google hits, where "Sailor Soldier" and "Sailor Soldiers" combined get 43,700. Warrior/Warriors gets 23,600, so Senshi outdoes both those translations combined.

On the other hand ,"Sailor Scout" and "Sailor Scouts" get 104,000. So I guess you could vote for that, but...gross. ;___;

Thoughts? --Masamage 01:50, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Disgusting!! I hate "scout".  While the subtitled versions use the word "soldier", I prefer the usage of "senshi".  Simply because there is no real translation for it and I think that it's more popular, as you proved above.  - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 01:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * "Senshi" per google. --Kunzite 21:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Senshi. Um, yea. Danny Lilithborne 21:26, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Four for Senshi so far...anyone else want to sound off? --Masamage 07:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I say go with "Senshi". --  Denelson83  15:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's set a deadline for further comment at this weeked. If no one has objected by Monday, October 30th, we can probably call it decided. --Masamage 18:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

If we're sticking with Senshi throughout, then the name of the anime in the episode blurbs "I'll Punish You! The Fortune-Telling House is a Youma's Mansion! (おしおきよ！占いハウスは妖魔の館 Oshiokiyo! Uranai house wa youma no yakata?) is the second episode of the Pretty Soldier Sailor Moon anime." should probably be changed back to Bishoujo Senshi Sailor Moon, for consistency. - Malkinann 20:24, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * A good point to raise. I think I disagree, because a "Sailor Senshi" is something very specific, such that even if you know what the individual words mean, you'd still need to read the article to know what we're talking about. On the other hand, someone who reads those episode articles without knowing Japanese would have no idea what the name of the anime was. --Masamage 03:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Senshi FTW. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 20:34, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

i all was use senshi 195.93.21.4 16:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, this looks pretty decided. --Masamage 08:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Image
I can't keep quite about this anymore. That image is too much of an eye sore (The pixalation is bad even when it is full sized!) We need a new one... BAdly!Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I wholeheartedly agree. I love the one we switched it out for at Sailor Moon, but since not everyone in that picture is a Senshi, it would probably just be confusing here.
 * So, should we try to find a group shot? Or just show one example of a Senshi? --Masamage 19:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd be in favour of a group shot, if possible - maybe there's a suitable one in the manga? - Malkinann 01:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Anything, As long as its not this.. infact if any one could track down the original image it would be fine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Lego3400 (talk • contribs)
 * Wow, I didn't even think of that. Searching now. --Masamage 21:09, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I like this one, but again, they're not all Senshi; and this one here has them in their school uniforms. - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 21:11, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. The first one's certainly gorgeous, but you're right, besides which I think it's fanart. And it's probably best to show the Senshi uniforms themselves, for illustration purposes. I haven't yet come across another version of the one we have now, but I'd like to keep looking... Obey me, internet! --Masamage 22:13, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I know what you mean... I wish i knew where the uploader got it from.... When i found the image that We're useing on Sailor Moon, I was actully looking for the orginal one of this (which was also on that page at that time), but i saw that and liked it even more.. So i used it instead... Lego3400: The Sage of Time 16:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

There's this one from MangaStyle that shows all of the girls, but not their boots. - Malkinann 00:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That one is one of my all time favorite images. - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 02:25, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I also have this image and this one, too. We can always add a second pic of any missing Senshi, right?  - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 17:36, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

For now i've put the Image we're using on Sailor Moon and changed the caption to "The Sailor Team and thier Allies... I just couldn't take the old one any more... (took me a bit to get the size right though) Lets keep it as a place holder for now (We would have needed to change the capiton anyways so we just upload our new one at where we had the old one and just remove the 2 from the link... (Simple! (And i planned it that way when i uploaded the file..)))Lego3400:  The Sage of Time 16:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I combined several pics to form this one. Would this be okay to use?  - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 00:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * That's very pretty, but when shrunk down it would be too small to see anybody.
 * I've been looking quite a lot. Still haven't given up on a good version of what we used to have...--Masamage 01:10, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Um, I see that you've added it. I still don't think it quite works. You had to make it unreasonably huge for any detail to show. --Masamage 01:42, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It's big enough to be seen when clicked on... :(  - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 01:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Now I don't think it works and I feel like a bully. --Masamage 05:01, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Ummmm... I'll come up with something else, then.  We can use more than one pic, right?  - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 07:18, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah but try not too... I like the one that cut off their feet... I went looking and found this! http://aprilstar03.tripod.com//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sd_senshi_group_shot.jpg It even says Sailor Team on it XD! Lego3400:  The Sage of Time 05:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I replaced the image file with an anime style one. It shows the main 10 Senshi with no modifications. I suppose that the Starlights and the Quartet can be added to the page somewhere as well. - Saturn Yoshi  THE VOICES 20:36, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Good find! That looks really nice. I'll toss the Starlights image back in. --Masamage 19:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

How does a Senshi awaken?
Yes, I know, back to basics. ;) Here's my first draft:


 * A girl with the power to become a Sailor Senshi lives her normal life, with perhaps some powers endowed by her slumbering Sailor Crystal (esp. in the manga), until she obtains her henshin item, whereupon she can transform into her Senshi form. For the Inner Senshi, when the girl is endangered by an evil monster, her planetary symbol begins to glow, which enables Luna to identify the girl as a Sailor Senshi, and produce the henshin item.  After the girl has taken up her mantle as a Sailor Senshi, memories from the past life can begin returning.  Sometimes, the girl can be spoken to by her Sailor Senshi form (ref from when the current girls got their Super forms) - this might be called the 'quintessential' Sailor Senshi.  (A quote from the manga about what the quintessential Sailors are would be better than this piece of OR!)  All of the current Sailor Team's awakenings have been recorded, except for Sailor Neptune and Sailor Pluto.

So there you go. Very much WIP, very much OR, and quite possibly needed. Little help, please? - Malkinann 01:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Page name
These titles: Sailor Warrior and セーラー戦士 link to this article. --PJ Pete
 * Sounds fine to me. Please add new comments to the bottom of talk pages. --Masamage 05:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The Japanese text one was deleted. Most likely because this is an English language Wikipedia and no one will look for article using Kanji, etc.  I didn't delete it, I just noticed it.  - Saturn  Yoshi  THE VOICES 06:47, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Sailor Team
I read that "Sailor Team" is the whole group, which of course is incorrect. the "Sailor Team" is made up of Sailor Moon, Mercury, Mars, Jupiter, and Venus (all of the main Silver Millennium Sailor Soldiers (Sailor Senshi). Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are known as the "3 Soldiers of the Outer Solar System" or "Outer Rim". Never do they refer to themselves as the "Sailor Team". That is a term only used by the 5 Senshi from season one. I am not sure what category Saturn is, as she isn't apart of those labels. Perhaps in the "other" category, along with Sailor Chibi Chibi Moon, etc..

Also, "Inner and Outer" is a fan based term and it should be noted on this page. Although Mercury, Mars, Jupiter and Venus are part of the "Sailor Team", just the four of them (without Sailor Moon) are known as the "Four Guardians Deities" or just "Four Guardians". As also said above Uranus, Neptune, + Pluto belong to the "Outer Solar System" or "Outer Rim" group. Fighter4luv 07:53, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, Sailor Team is occasionally used to mean everybody (mainly by Takeuchi in other art), occasionally used to mean the five main Senshi, and occasionally used to mean the Inners sans Moon. The article explains the similar problem with the term Sailor Senshi; I guess more elaboration wouldn't hurt.
 * As to Inners and Outers benig fan terms, the article already says so. "It should be understood that, although in frequent use by English-speaking fans, the terms 'Inner Senshi' and 'Outer Senshi' are non-canonical and never appear in the series."
 * (We use them because there is no official terminology that is completely consistant, easy to understand, and inclusive of Sailor Saturn. The series rarely needs to call them anything, since it can just show them most of the time, but in the encyclopedia we frequently need to say things like "The Outer Senshi do not appear in the SuperS anime," "The Outer Senshi are generally darker and more mature than the Inner," or "The Inner Senshi all lived on the moon." So it's necessary to have a short term that doesn't require constant explanation of who we mean.)
 * Incidentally, the most commonly-used term for "Outer Senshi" in the actual series is "Uranus-tachi". This isn't important, I just think it's funny. --Masamage 18:28, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * True. It seems that Uranus is the leader of the "Outer Solar System" Senshi. There is a reason though that Uranus, Neptune and Pluto are only known for being the "3 senshi of the outer solar system". My theory of this came from reading about the planets and how their discovery came about. 1 thing that stood out was the fact that Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto were all discovered one after the other in respect to the previous planet. This could be a reason why the 3 are always working together away from the other Sailor Senshi. Another thing would be they were the only planets out of the 8 (excluding Earth) that were discovered not by the naked eye (as i read was the case for the other planets). I'm assuming this was the reason for their roles in the manga and anime. Uranus and Neptune being close together because of their similarities. Was also thinking about the their planet's influence on them (Neptune being able to sense when the wind changed, etc - could it be possible that because Neptune having the strongest wind currents of any planet have anything to do with that?). Fighter4luv 03:12, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Astarte
Who? Why is there no info on her anyplace. Doesn't it sound like the name of a Phage though? Lego3400: The Sage of Time 16:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's a character in the musicals. I haven't seen them either. --Masamage 22:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

fan-made Senshi
should we add a picture of a fan made Senshi to the section that says about fan made Senshi? i have one we could use ♥sailor cuteness-ready for love♥ 16:27, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think so. Everyone would want their Senshi in that spot. o_O --Masamage 18:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

good point shameless pepole would be showing them off like this ♥sailor cuteness-ready for love♥ 18:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC) http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u78/Sailor_Cuteness/sailorcuteness.gif
 * There is is a good article on fan-made senshi, or otaku senshi over at wikimoon here, though I would ask people not add there own otaku senshi as the article is just supposed to be an overview of that part of the fandom. --GracieLizzie 19:00, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

cool page I wonder witch category my Senshi would fall under? ♥sailor cuteness-ready for love♥ 19:05, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * For future reference, if you want to show an image for consideration, it should not be uploaded to Wikipedia's servers unless there is agreement that it will be used. It needs to be put somewhere else until/unless it is needed. --Masamage 19:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't have a section on senshi named after attributes, and other non-space related things. We aught to add one. --GracieLizzie 19:11, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * do you know if/when that page is gona be on normal wikipedia ♥sailor cuteness-ready for love♥ 23:25, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It doesn't fulfil WP's notability guidelines, so probably not. That's why Project WikiMoon exists; to cover the stuff that doesn't fit in over here. --Masamage 00:37, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * does that mean i have to get rid of it? ♥sailor cuteness-ready for love♥ 19:12, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Upload it to another free service, like Image Shack or Photo Bucket. Then link it in the place of the one you've linked here. --GracieLizzie 19:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * it looks better like this ♥sailor cuteness-ready for love♥ 19:55, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

how to i get it as pic in the page insded of a hyper link? ♥sailor cuteness-ready for love♥ 20:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Images explains why we can't do that. --Masamage 21:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Can we use http://www.sailorastera.com/otaku/index.html as a source for the part on otaku senshi? It's got most of the stuff on it (not "one of the most popular" and it doesn't describe otaku senshi as a meme, but it's got the rest.) -Malkinann 00:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks great to me. --Masamage ♫ 01:34, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Whew
I went through and manually italized every instance of the word Senshi as per the Style Manual... I may have missed a few, so if any one sees one i missed fix it. Also 5 ' marks make a word both bold and italic Lego3400: The Sage of Time 13:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Um. I am not convinced the word "Senshi" needs to be italicized. Compare the articles on Sumo, manga, daimyo, shogun. It certainly makes no sense to italicize all occurrences of the terms "Inner Senshi" and "Outer Senshi", since they are English terms. (I would argue that the fact that English terms have been constructed containing them implies, in at least this restricted context, that they can be treated as loanwords.) –Aponar Kestrel (talk) 04:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm so glad someone else said that. I was too shy because it's such a small detail. x_x But yes, I totally agree. Italicising Senshi looks completely ridiculous. It doesn't need it any more than Usagi Tsukino does.
 * Other Japanese words we use 'round these articles are still good for italicising, of course, like Shitennou. But not Senshi, because we're not using it as Japanese. We're using it as a Sailor Moon word with its own specific meaning established solely for use in this universe. --Masamage


 * Okay, does anyone disagree with this? I really hate to undo all the hard work people have done on hunting down and italicizing uses of the word, especially Eternal Pink, but I think Kestrel is right. We are using this as a loanword, and as a very series-specific bit of jargon, rather than as a piece of another language. It seems that the guidelines for this sort of thing would point us toward leaving it unitalicised. I'll give it a few days in case we think of any reason to override that, but for now my plan will be to wait until about Thursday and then start changing it back to plain-style. (And I'll do as much of that personally as I can; serves me right if I'm going to be the one griping about things. X) I think I know a way to make it really quick, anyhow.) --Masamage 07:23, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Darn I wish I could think of any reasion to argue to keep but I can't :{ oh well ♥Eternal Pink-ready for love♥ 18:37, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Me too. :/ I'm sorry. --Masamage 18:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Reorg proposal
I would like to structure this article in the following way:
 * Lead section
 * Description of what a Senshi is, including Sailor Crystals and uniforms
 * The Sailor Team (description of purpose, terms used)
 * Inner Senshi (subsection, to which Inner Senshi can be redirected)
 * Outer Senshi (subsection, to which Outer Senshi can be redirected)
 * Other Sailor Senshi (rewritten)

This wouldn't change anything too substantial about the content of the article, I'm just envisioning something much more comprehensible in terms of organization.

Also, would it be cool/legal to make a .SVG of a generic, blank Senshi uniform so we can talk about the structure? This way we could have a place to discuss costume changes between the first, second, and third uniforms, and the symbolism involved therein, without clogging the individual character bios. I have a good start at one, and can definitely present it for approval before uploading. Just thought I'd run it by you all before getting to invested in it. :) --Masamage 22:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Just so it's clear what I mean when I talk about the generic Senshi picture: here's my progress. The final version will be an .svg, and I'm going to redo the head now that I've figured out what I'm doing. --Masamage 02:18, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * And she's done! Well, almost. I still need to fix a few little details, and I might add a back view of her fuku, at least, so that the collar and the back bow make sense. Then I get to start writing in notes about what everything is, a la Materials Collection. How does it look so far? --Masamage 22:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

wooo I wish I could draw like that-:} its a grate idier btw :} ♥Eternal Pink-Ready for love and grace♥ 22:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you. *^^* Inkscape is wonderful.
 * Here is the completed picture of Sailor Generic. If I wind up uploaded it, it'll be in SVG format. My only concern is about the copyright status. Does anyone know whether or not this is something I can freely release? Are the Sailor fuku themselves copyrighted? That seems unlikely, doesn't it? --Masamage 00:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I wouldnt think you could copyright clothes♥Eternal Pink-Ready for love and grace♥ 11:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It's more of a copyright of the actual design. Are you going to make ones of Sailor Senshi from other places? It appears that only Sailor Senshi of our solar system share that unique style of combat uniform. ~ Fighter4luv 11:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I dont think we can have a design for each Senshi from out of space because the animates all have kinda diffrent costumes ♥Eternal Pink-Ready for love and grace♥ 12:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, as long as it is mentioned somewhere that their "Combat Uniform" (戦闘服) are all different, depending on what galaxy (or whatever) they come from. ~ Fighter4luv 13:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The pic does mention that alternate Senshi may have different styles of certain attributes or lack them entirely, and that this design is based on the Inner Senshi. Basically the solar system Senshi are all pretty well matched and everybody else is completely unique, so it would be a waste of time to try and imitate the outliers. --Masamage 19:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks beautiful... I'm surprised that you haven't mentioned the Sailor Collar, esp. as it's such a point of debate amongst the Otaku Senshi community.  What size would it be displayed in the article?  With regards to other Senshi, we've got a picture of the Starlights that the caption says 'they wear hotpants instead of skirts, and they use comparitively little of their own signature colours'.  you may have to explain secondary/primary/tertiary colours?  (Do any of the Sailor Team have a tertiary colour?)  Isn't the 'base colour' white?  It may be helpful to provide a coloured example - Sailor Wikipedia-tan?  ;)  -Malkinann 21:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. ^^ I did mention the collar as much as I figured was verifiable: every Senshi in the series has one. I have no particular opinion about the size; whatever looks good, I guess. The skirt thing mentions that not everyone has one (besides hotpants and leotards, there are pants among the phage, but I didn't want to get into that much detail). And yeah, maybe explaining the color system would be a could thing for that rather sparse texty area in the lower corner. I'd rather not color Sailor Generic herself in anything but grays, as I was trying to give her as little personality as possible. XD And yes, Sailor Venus' brooch and back bow are yellow for some reason. --Masamage 22:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If you're looking for tertiary colours, just look at the skirts on Moon and Chibi Moon's super uniforms. --  Denelson83  01:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * True enough! I tend to think of those two as pretty firmly in the "alternate Senshi" category. Their fuku get so weird. --Masamage 02:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I have rewritten the text to do a better job of emphasizing some of the things you guys brought up. It's just uploaded over the top of the old one, so... Better? And the WP:ANIME people are helping me figure out licensing, so if you're all okay with it being used, I can get to writing the section it would be illustrating. --Masamage 01:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Inner/Outer Senshi
Oh yes, I know I'm opening up *that* can of worms. But since Wikipedia stresses the avoidance of fanmade terminology, I'm going to broach this topic now so the article can be made more accurate to canon and not fandom. Specifically, who is grouped as an Inner and an Outer is very fluid since the terms were not canon, and the article can't take a position on who is an Inner or an Outer because then it's giving way to speculation, which goes against Wikipedia guidelines.

While it might be worthwhile discussing the terms existance, using them to differentiate between the two distinct groups of Senshi causes more problems with accuracy than coming up with a better alternative. There has to be a way to use the show's canon to describe how the various groupings of Senshi operate without resorting to fanon. As the current article stands, it almost makes official canon into a footnote in favor of using fan-created terminology. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Rebochan 19:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no official manga or anime term that means "Mercury Mars Jupiter and Venus," and no term that means "Uranus Neptune Pluto and Saturn." We often need to refer to those groups; the official series does not because it can just show them together. Extant terms mean the Inners plus Moon, or the Outers minus Saturn. Not the same thing.
 * The musicals do refer to them as the outer four and the inner four. That's official, and there's no reason we can't use a translation of it. So I don't see a problem. --Masamage 19:11, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Self-correction: I forgot, there is one for the inners. It's just really long, is all. I've rewritten the lead of the Sailor Team section to reflect all this. --Masamage 19:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * But the musicals are not canon to any of the other series. Why are we using them as a justification?  Also, the term "Outer Senshi" has been applied to both teams with and without Saturn.  The article describes how fans view it, which doesn't have a place here.  It's one thing to use those terms on a fan site, but this isn't a fan site.  This is an encyclopedia.Rebochan 20:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Speaking of things I'm perfectly aware of, we don't get to pass judgement on which parts of officially-published material are "canonical" and which aren't. It's not like Naoko Takeuchi has ever said a bad thing about the musicals; there no reason to suddenly decide they don't count. --Masamage 20:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Certain elements of a meta-series are canon to all of them, and some of them aren't. Hence why certain criteria of canon exist.  Terms from the anime and the manga have always been given priority.  The musicals started after the manga and the anime and the anime and manga never reference them.  In addition, the musicals have no continuity of their own and sometimes they'll introduce multiple names or groups that would never be included in articles describing the series as whole.  To apply a term as canonical for the entire Sailor Moon metaseries when it only appeared in the musicals makes no logical sense.  Also, the musicals still didn't describe the terms that we're debating and don't provide a definition consistant with the definition the article gives because they leave out Sailor Moon in the "inner four".


 * Also, the policy you linked is part of this problem. To maintain an NPOV, we would not be favoring a fan term over a factual term.  To emphasize a fan term is showing favoritism and is actually POV.  Furthermore, the statements the article makes about who is and isn't an Inner and Outer Senshi falls into the realm of original research. Rebochan 00:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, I think I still disagree, but all that aside: what terms could we possibly use instead? I foresee sentence structures like "The Three Soldiers of the Outer Rim and Sailor Saturn decide to face Galaxia separately from Sailor Moon and the Four Warriors of the Guardian Gods." This I declare to be slightly sub-obtimal. :P --Masamage 00:23, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand your problem, but wouldn't it be easier to simply say "Sailors Uranus, Neptune, Pluto and Saturn"? JuJube 00:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I would support that. It's something of a mouthful, but there's no confusion stemming from fan terminology either.  I'm wondering about whether there should still be a note regarding the fan terms in the article, but I can't come up with any way to explain it that doesn't fall into the realm of original research. Rebochan 13:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * As I have learnt on the Doctor Who Wikiproject... citations are your friends :). Also hi Rebochan :) (I'm assuming you're the same Rebochan as the Rebochan who ran SMULC). --GracieLizzie 20:25, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yep, I'm that Rebochan! And it's great to know you're working on Doctor Who's Wikiproject! ^_^ Rebochan 02:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * ^_^ It's nice to know you're working on Sailor Moon too (I had a SMULC missing moment when I found some rumours.... in a book printed by the BFI!, who I thought would do there fact checking). --GracieLizzie 10:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Blech. I don't think the reasons for switching away from convenient and relevant terminology are good enough motivation to rewrite chunks of every single article in the project. "Planetary Senshi" is a "fan term" too, but that doesn't mean it's not meaningful. "Royal Family of the Moon Kingdom" is also useful. Just because Naoko didn't name her groups consistently doesn't mean we never get to refer to them.
 * But if it's important to you, put it up for vote at WP:SM and see what consensus says. --Masamage 18:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Up for vote. Rebochan 20:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, "royal family of the Moon Kingdom" isn't a fan term - there's a royal family from the Moon Kingdom, therefore there's nothing wrong with it. "Planetary Senshi" is a bad fan term because *all* Sailor Senshi belong to planets, save for the ones who represent a moon. That one should definitely be avoided.  Rebochan 20:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In the new cover edition manga (volume 2 page 105) Mercury, Mars, Jupiter and Venus are referred to with a katakana combination that approximates "Guardian", the kana appear next to a combination of kanji (shugo senshi) which would render those kanji in English as "Guardian Senshi/Soldier". To that same effect, on page 127 of new cover volume 2 a set of kana approximating "Guardians" appears next to a cluster of kanji (shugo senshi-tachi) effectively rendering them as "Guardian Senshi/Soldiers". I see no reason that we can't call Mercury, Mars, Jupiter and Venus " Shugo Senshi" or "Guardian Senshi/Soldiers", as it accurately describes them and is from the manga and is an acceptable shortening of the cumbersome title "Yon Shugo Shin/Jin no Senshi" or "Four Senshi/Soldiers of the Guardian Deities".


 * As for Neptune, Uranus and Pluto, they do introduce themselves in the anime and manga frequently as "Gaibu Taiyoukei San Senshi" or "Three Senshi/Soldiers of the Outer Solar System", but this needn't mean that that term is exclusive of Saturn. In that vein, Neptune, Uranus, Pluto and Saturn are referred to as "Gaibu Taiyoukei Yon Senshi" or "Four Senshi/Soldiers of the Outer Solar System" in the Materials Collection (page 116). In Episode 196 of the anime, Hotaru describes herself and Setsuna, to Haruka and Michiru, as "Gaibu Taiyoukei Senshi" or "Senshi/Soldiers of the Outer Solar System". In new cover edition manga (volume 9 page 229), in a discussion between Haruka, Michiru and Setsuna, Michiru uses the term "Gaibu Taiyoukei Senshi" or "Senshi/Soldiers of the Outer Solar System" in reference to herself and the others. "Gaibu Taiyoukei Senshi" or "Senshi/Soldiers of the Outer Solar System" is inclusive of and accurately describes Neptune, Uranus, Pluto and Saturn, comes directly from canonical sources and is the shortest of the given variations of the title "Gaibu Taiyoukei Yon Senshi".


 * As for "Sailor Team", I think that it only refers to the Guardian Senshi/Soldiers as led by Sailor Moon, but I could easily be wrong.


 * In conclusion I propose:
 * For Mercury, Mars, Jupiter and Venus: Shugo Senshi or Guardian Senshi/Soldiers
 * For Neptune, Uranus, Pluto and Saturn: Gaibu Taiyoukei Senshi or Senshi/Soldiers of the Outer Solar System or Outer Solar System Senshi/Soldiers. Davi Williams 05:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This conversation mostly moved to WT:SM. I'll post a link to your excellent comments over there. Thanks for such detailed info! --Masamage ♫ 05:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)


 * ...You guys do realize that in at least one edition of the U.S. manga's translation (I forget which volume, it's one of the Tokyopop graphic novel collections though, I think from the SuperS GNs), the liner notes mention that "fans overseas" (or something very close to that in meaning) like to divide them into groups they call "Outer Senshi" and "Inner Senshi", right? So, we have a print source, albeit one that's out of print, for those terms. If I can dig them up in the next few days and remember to do it, I'll see about citing it, OK? Even if the translator inserted it in lieu of something else, it IS a verifiable source that the terms have been used for the groupings before, and so long as we were to note EXACTLY where we were getting the information (i.e. something like "In the Tokyopop translations of the manga, SuperS volume [#], the translation of the liner notes state..."), we'd be OK. We could even use the terms throughout the article so long as we note "for the sake of consistency/conveinience/clarity/whatever, these terms will be used here, except in cases where an alternative has been recorded, to note such alternative" (or something a LOT less clunky than that, at any rate), and then simply note the instances where certain groupings were called something else in say, the manga or musicals. By the way, the musicals ARE licensed derivitive works of which Takeuchi apparently approved, and therefore, it's silly to argue whether they "are or aren't canon" here. Feel free to note that the canon of the musicals varies with each musical, and that it varies greatly from the other versions (anime, manga, PGSM, etc.), as much or more than they do from each other, by all means, because that is accurate and specific. But to claim they are more or less canonical than other versions, is very POV, especially when in the same breath you equate the anime and manga with each other for canonicity - when in fact, technically, only the manga was written entirely by the series creator, who disapproved of some of the changes in the anime! It's silly. Sailor Moon is defined as a metaseries - on its own article too - and this accurately reflects the reality of the releases for it, which are often highly different from each other, but retain many basic ideas and characters. So long as you note that the canons (i.e. official releases) of them DIFFER, that is enough. Go beyond that and you start entering POV territory, which we are supposed to avoid on here (don't get me wrong, I think the anime's just fine and I think the musicals are weird and obscure and I know they don't always "mesh" with the other canons, but that's OPINION, and you know it). Ah! And of course, there is also the fact that the musicals do use the term Sailor Senshi... and since this article is about the usage of the term and its meanings, well, there you go. It's a usage. Record it appropriately. 4.235.6.6 23:07, 26 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Having a reference to prove that "Inner Senshi" is in fact used by fans would be handy. So yes, thanks, if you could dig that up for us it would be great. :) However, there's no real way for us to say "So here, in these pages, we'll be using the fan terms and here's why" because we're not supposed to refer to Wikipedia itself within our text. Since it's proven that Guardian and Outer Senshi are legitimate official terms, there should be no problem with leaving things as they are; people typing in "Inner Senshi" in the search bar will get redirect to Guardian Senshi, so that's not confusing. People familiar enough with the series to know who the Inner Senshi are will also understand who "Sailor Moon's four Guardian Senshi" are. People not familiar enough to know it might as well learn an official term. :) So I'm all for not changing everything back to the unofficial version, so long as we can make it work with the official one. It's been two months without a single sign of confusion, so I think we've come up with a good solution. It would be great to have a reference for the Inner Senshi thing, though. --Masamage ♫ 23:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

New grouping proposal
All those who were concerned about the Inners/Outers naming, please join this discussion. --Masamage ♫ 01:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Generic redux
I've redone my Sailor Generic image to be a more specific mapping of the planetary Senshi's uniforms, complete with a list of changes to each upgrade: Image:SailorGeneric.svg. How does it look? Is it usable? --Masamage ♫ 01:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Must resist erge to stick it on my page :} ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 02:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * We might need to add in an explanation of 'powering up' in the article text then... -Malkinann 02:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I intend to do have some accompanying text, yeah. And to mention that very, very little of this applies to Sailors Moon and Chibi Moon. --Masamage ♫ 02:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The sleeves can be non-existent in the first incarnation. There should also be Something moon-specific, i.e. princess of this system. 1. They are always one step ahead. 2. Moon-based Senshi (Chibimoon, Parallel, and Moon) all have boots when they transform... I don't think this is a coincidence. While the other senshi go through a variety of footwear, the moon senshi do not... may be a reference to moonboots. ^.~ In fact it seems that princesses always have a uniform that's different from their senshi, if you count Kakyuu... and skirt upgrades probably should be included. There also seems to be a theming with the costumes for Outers v. Inners. But that's too much OR. I'll put it here anyway. In the beginning the costumes while similar in scheme differed more. Everyone had different footwear, and then as the teams got more united the costume themes seemed to come together. In the case of the Outers their costumes became of the same theming when they powered up. Then in the manga their costumes pretty much became the same. (two skirts, secondary color of the same saturation, down to footwear.) They had started to act in accord with each other, when the Outer's mission changed. The SQ had one less skirt layer too... Moon=three, chibimoon=two SQ=one... see the theming? The more that the team began to unite, the more that their costumes became similar... ^^;; But it is OR. --Hitsuji Kinno 17:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
 * One last note: The idea to put them into Sailor suits was Osa-P's idea. ^.~


 * It already says the thing about how they may not have sleeves (or may have unique ones, a la Saturn). The moon stuff was just too complicated to go into in the image; maybe the accompanying text could go into it a little, but yeah, there's a lot of original research involved. Definitely we could talk about the theming--the Outers having no stripes on their collars and that sort of thing. Also, the Moon Senshi aren't the only ones who wear those kinds of boots; Mercury and Pluto have identical ones save for the colors. --Masamage ♫ 00:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've written up a new section, cited it up, and inserted the image. CHARGE! --Masamage ♫ 20:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Whoo it looks good in the artcle ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 20:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. ^^ I'm uncertain about the placement, but it seems okay where it is. I switched it to a .png format because the vector version was just too gigantic in terms of filesize (over nine times as big). I also removed the titles from the bottom; they looked weird and unprofessional in the context of the article. --Masamage ♫ 21:17, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Generic Error
In their second form, Uranus and neptune still have short gloves. Saturn may still have her fancy gloves but i'm not sure....--Lego3400: The Sage of Time 15:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, you're right. I was working from the manga. In the anime those two do retain their special gloves; Saturn, though, gets normal ones. I'll fix it. --Masamage ♫ 21:38, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: Sailor Generic
In the manga, it seems that Mars, Jupitar, Moon, and Mecury have 3 stripes on their early collars. Venus has one as a referance to her days as Sailor V. The more we look into this, the more the little details seem to pop out. Lego3400: The Sage of Time 18:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Also i have an image to go with this to support my claim. You can tell its manga based for these reasons: Venus is wearing her chain. Mercury has no sleeves, and Jupiter's antennia is sticking out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs) 18:17, 13 August 2007
 * Hm, okay. That image is fanart, but her official stuff matches. (They all have two in the anime. x_X) I'll update the image; thanks. --Masamage ♫ 20:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not a fan art, it's was drawn by Takeuchi Yayamaya (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 19:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Negative. In the anime, #3 and #5 both have one stripe on their collars. --  Denelson83  21:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Its ment to be a referance to her days as SAilor V or something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lego3400 (talk • contribs) 04:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Peer review?
I've looked over the article and I can't find anything else to improve on, so maybe we should ask for outside sources? What do you guys think? Zemalia (talk) 05:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm down. ^^ --Masamage ♫ 05:33, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Its now up at Peer review/Sailor Senshi/archive1. Hopefully we can get some input.  I'll put this up on the main project page as well. Zemalia (talk) 17:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you! ^__^ I'll keep an eye on it. --Masamage ♫ 01:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Lamest. Peer review. Ever. --Masamage ♫ 20:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh come on now, the bot tried! ;)  Part of the problem, I think, is that the Sailor Senshi concept is somewhat advanced for someone who's not into superheroes or Sailor Moon.  Naoko Takeuchi is a living person, Sailor Stars is a comic and TV season, and so people have frames of reference for what they think would be useful in those situations, but it takes us four paragraphs to even begin to summarise what a Sailor Senshi is. That, and peer review doesn't have the traffic it used to - sometimes people put stuff up for review without even reviewing another person's article in return! -Malkinann (talk) 00:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The fact is that it was a bot that reviewed the article. This was supposed to be peer review, not bot review. --  Denelson83  02:13, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Sailor Quartet
Should we mention them or put all their info at their page. They are Planetary Sol system, senshi ablit assigned to Chibi-moon instead of Moon. Would their inclusion in the page confuse things future? --Lego3400: The Sage of Time (talk) 16:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * They're not planetary; they rule over asteroids. And they're mentioned in the Variants section. --Masamage ♫ 17:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

New reorganization
To help with the problems of secondary sources and better organization, one thing that needs to happen is for a bunch of the info in the lead section to be moved into separate subsections. I imagine something like this: Is there third-party information about the Senshi or their uniforms? It must be covered in Warriors of Legend or some of the scholarly essays, but I don't have access to those. Any contributions? --Masamage ♫ 20:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Lead - Summarizing what and who a Senshi is, why it's important to the series
 * Development - How Takeuchi came up with the idea, how it progressed, out-of-universe facts
 * Series definition - How Senshi work in the series - females only, star seeds, planets, etc. All cited from Naoko.
 * Uniforms - As now, but figure out some way to make the citations more clear (I have refs, but it's hard to do that in a picture)
 * The Sailor Team - As now
 * Variations - As now, given a workover


 * I seem to recall that Grigsby treats the uniform as "zomg, sex fetish!", as does Anne Allison less so in "character goods come to the US". Allison also talks about the senshi representing a merged duality of masculine-warrior and beautiful-feminine traits in both her book chapter and in the US paper.  It's been a while since I've read them. -Malkinann (talk) 04:12, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Heh! Well, that's something. I'll keep looking, too. (Is it just me, or are Westerners the weird ones here? X) ) --Masamage ♫ —Preceding comment was added at 06:22, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually... crazy thought here, but would it be feasible to merge the non-character-specific portions of Sailor Crystal into Sailor Senshi? -Malkinann (talk) 11:48, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Hmm, maybe. We could probably condense the length of that description a lot, and merge it into the series definition of a Senshi? --Masamage ♫ 03:23, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that was kind of what I was driving at - the Sailor Crystal maketh the Senshi. There's a fair bit of star seed information, though - that could probably be summarised and merged out to Shadow Galactica? -Malkinann (talk) 06:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe so. They are kind of the same thing, which spans storylines, but it's true that it's pretty small for its own article. Sailor Crystal here and Star Seed at Shadow Galactica makes sense, though; they can link back and forth to each other. Actually, would it make better sense to put Star Seed at Sailor Stars, in the same way the Talismans now live at Sailor Moon S? --Masamage ♫ 16:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'd thought of that, but Sailor Stars is really big. Should I put up some general notices?-Malkinann (talk) 20:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The star seeds are a pretty quick explanation, though. And yeah, let's get some more people in on this. --Masamage ♫ 15:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I usedta be proud of the Sailor Crystal article, but now I'm more in tune with policy. ^_^ Merging is probably a good idea. JuJube (talk) 03:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like no one disagrees yet. Let's set the deadline for voicing opposition to this Thursday, January 24 just to be sure. If no one has a problem by then we can go ahead and do it. --Masamage ♫ 21:10, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I've been bold and moved Sailor Crystally stuff to a new section on Sailor Senshi, and all starseedy stuff to a new section in Sailor Stars. I'm not sure that the list of crystals is needed any more in here, given that we pass over them in each senshi's "Powers and abilities" section???? -Malkinann (talk) 03:21, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Gah, I totally forgot about this. That's what I get for planning stuff the day before my husband's birthday. :P But, looks good! Thank you for doing that. And I think you're completely right about the list; I'll go ahead and whack it out for now. Hopefully, the Sailor Crystal section can eventually be merged with our hypothetical in-universe explanation of a Senshi, and be nearer the top of the page. But this is okay for now. --Masamage ♫ 04:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

How's this for six degrees of academic separation? In this article, it is said that shoujo heroines are all doll-like in their looks and that this book, Samurai from Outer Space, (which I don't have access to) reckons that the characters from Sailor Moon are all miko-like, and the article goes on to say that in the olden days, female magic-users used dolls as effigies, whereas in these series (a list including Oh My Goddess! and Silent Mobius), the female magic user herself is (visually) the doll and has magic powers. Question being now, can we get our hands on a copy of Samurai from Outer Space, and if not, how do we incorporate this comparison of the Senshi to miko? -Malkinann (talk) 01:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone recall seeing something that says that Takeuchi didn't realise how hard the costumes would be to wear until she saw cosplayers? -Malkinann (talk) 01:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Fair-use images
Would it be okay with everyone if we tossed the different images of the Inner/Outer Senshi and just relied on the Sailor Team pic at the top of the article for illustration? --Masamage ♫ 01:57, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Sounds great. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 04:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No idea. I rather keep them but if it violates the FUC go ahead and chuck them out. However, we must label the Sailor Team image in the caption who is who, otherwise people who come and read probably wouldn't know the difference between Inner/Outer.-- Hana ichi  05:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * No protests, so I'll go ahead and do this now. --Masamage ♫ 18:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Third form Sleeves.
We've assumed that they are opaque due to ESM's sleeves in the anime, but the artwork on the offical site's profile section shows the other Senshi with semi-transparent "puffs" instead of opaque ones. (Moon isn't pictured in her Eternal Form though :. Another update for the Sailor Generic Image and uniform section perhaps?--Lego3400: The Sage of Time (talk) 18:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
 * They're definitely opaque in the manga, as can be seen on the Materials Collection cover. Meanwhile, I don't think that one drawing with them as transparent is quite notable unless it spawns something new... --Masamage ♫ 21:23, 8 April 2008 (UTC)