Talk:Saint-Léonard (Quebec)


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move. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) Seen this already? 08:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
PageName → NewName – The English convention is "Quebec" without accent. Indefatigable 17:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Survey

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 * Support. Should be consistent with the the spelling in most other en-wiki articles.  Skeezix1000 01:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose Should be Saint Leonard, Quebec. This is English Wikipedia. Ardenn 04:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Support for consistency. As well, the online Gazetteer of Canada indicates Saint-Léonard (with no notation of Saint Leonard) and is the proper name of the (former) municipality.  Moreover, this locale is not a name of pan-Canadian significance that may warrant translation – or a move – as proposed by Ardenn (c.f. Sept-Îles). E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 06:04, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

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 * It's usually called St. Leonard, Quebec in Englsh. 132.205.44.134 22:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Other Ethnicities
The article makes it sound as if Italians form an overhwleming majority in St. Leonard and fails to mention the borough's vibrant Haitian and Arabic communities. More substance could be added to this article.

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus Duja ► 09:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Saint-Leonard, Quebec → Saint Leonard, Quebec — The article started off at this, its correct English name as per common usage by English-speaking residents. It was then moved to the French name, in contravention of Wikipedia's naming policy and Wikipedia community consensus. In an attempt to change it back to the English name, a semi-correct version was chosen, without accent but with hyphen. Other cities in Quebec have been filly translated to the common English name, for example Montreal West, Quebec, and the same should be done here. 74.15.145.221 01:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .

Survey - Support votes

 * 1) Support for reasons stated above -74.15.145.221 01:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) Support per nomination. —  AjaxSmack     05:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) Support WP policy says to use the English name. TJ Spyke 01:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 4) Support I work in Communications writing in Montreal and issues like this come up from time to time. Fortunately, I also work alongside professional translators and editors who are on top of this. The hypenated name is definitely a francization. The fact that people see it used in Quebec in supposedly "English" documents is of zero use in establishing correctness, since there's a ton of stuff with incorrect or francized language coming from Quebec companies and organizations, both public and private. In fact, I recall reading an article suggesting we're creating a whole new dialect here. Maybe some will use that as an argument that there's a regional Quebec English that allows this, but in my view it's clear that the proper name for this place in the English Wikipedia should be unhyphenated and accented, as Saint Leonard. Shawn in Montreal 17:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh oh... I just checked the Government of Canada's Canadian style guide and they seem to disagree with me on the hyphen issue! See:
 * "15.09 Translation of Geographical Feature Names into English -- Non-translation of the specific
 * With the exception of names of pan-Canadian significance and some alternate forms approved by provincial authorities, the specific is not translated. It must be left in its official form (that is, the form in which it appears in the gazetteer of the relevant province or territory), with all hyphens, articles, accents, diacritical marks and capital letters. Nothing is added and nothing omitted:

pointe Enragée / Enragée Point rivière Saint-Augustin / Saint-Augustin River"
 * I'll try and check with my editor to see if she concurs, Shawn in Montreal 17:44, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Although maybe it's different for CITY names. Saint Leonard is not a "Geographical feature", is it?Shawn in Montreal 17:58, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Better mark me as NEUTRAL (My whole non-hypenated anglo world in crumbling around me!) Shawn in Montreal 01:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes

 * 1) This is not a case of English vs. non-English naming. In point of fact, several spellings are in widespread use in English, which makes this a straight orthography fight. Yes, en: Wikipedia should translate things like Montreal West when the name that's used in English is objectively different from what's used in French, but that isn't the case here — a simple Google search will reveal that "Saint Leonard", "Saint-Leonard" and "Saint-Léonard" are all commonly used in English, meaning that you can't single one of them out as the English name. 74.* is making a false comparison; this is less like Montreal West vs. Montréal-Ouest, and more like Trois-Rivières vs. Trois Rivieres (which would be an entirely unsupportable move). Oppose. Bearcat 02:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) As a Montrealer, I agree with Bearcat that the common English usage of SL is extremely debatable.  Most people I know use the French pronunciation even when speaking English. Original research, I know! Oppose--Slp1 03:27, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 3) I oppose the currently proposed move, but would support a move to Saint-Léonard, Quebec. The English pronunciation of "Leonard" with three syllables shows that the name does not have a fully anglicized version, unlike Montreal West. The federal style guide may go a bit too far in accent and hyphen retention, but it has the advantage of having simple rules that are easy to apply.  We should also aim for easy-to-use conventions so we don't overspend time on borderline cases like this. Indefatigable 04:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

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Title
The naming convention regarding English does not require that we eliminate French orthography in all cases — it requires only that we use a title that English speakers would recognize and use. As the last move debate indicated, there are a variety of ways that the name of this community is spelled in English; none of them can be singled out as the standard name in English. In such cases, both Wikipedia naming conventions and official Canadian practice favour the use of the official name of the location in its original language.

Accordingly, I have moved the article back to Saint-Léonard, Quebec, and would strongly urge that if someone wants to start yet another debate about moving it, you come up with a better and more compelling reason than we've seen so far. The linguistic politics of life in Montreal (which I suspect have been the real motivator here both times) are not an acceptable reason for overriding conventions or consensus in an NPOV encyclopedia. Bearcat 23:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)