Talk:Saint John's School of Alberta

Comparison to Indian Residential Schools
Th similarities to this school - at least in the past - to the abuse within Indian Residential Schools is frightening. With the enrollment dwindling, one can only hope this last of 3 schools will be forced to close sooner than later! People and institutions do change, but they should at least acknowledge their pasts. I started with this on a school project because I met someone who told me that he's attended a school every bit as nasty and awful as the Indian Residential Schools. He appears to be correct. Fremte 18:41, 8 September 2007 (UTC

I quote from the Wikipedia guidelines "Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views." Comparison to the Residential Schools is dead wrong and opinion. Please respect the guidelines before spouting off your opinion. Enrollment at the remaining school is not dwindling. The Alberta school has evolved. It is well-funded. Students attend by choice. All three schools have some distinguished and not-so-distinguished alumni who very much appreciate their experience.SJSlug 02:03, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't agree re comparison: run by religious groups, excessive discipline, admissions by founders as excessive, lawsuits regarding past conduct. It appeared pretty objective when I did the project. There are residential school students who also feel their experiences were positive. If you want to use a different adjective in place of "dwindling", perhaps "decreasing".  If you have some information to expand these articles about the schools please do.  I never intended to offend anyone and still do not.  With respect, Fremte 17:29, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to drop my two cents in here as well. I am a former student from SJSA and I have never felt as if SJSA was a bad experience for me. User Fremte has obviously met someone who had an absolutly terrible experience at one of the SJ schools ( by their own admission) and it would seem as if this person has focused on every negative thing that happened. This is never productive for anyone. User Fremte says that they are being unbiased but I submit that they are indeed biased. If you start looking for all the bad things about anything that is all you will find. Also it is fairly common for negative news and reviews to be published and more widely distrubuted and the good things go either under reported or unreported altogether. User Fremte, please consider this when you dismiss out of hand peoples experiences at the school. Do I agree with everything the school did? No. Far from it in fact. I am not after all a Borg, but I do recognize what the school was trying to do. They wanted us to be men who took responsibilities for our actions, men who looked at a problem with the intention of solving it, men who did not piss down their legs when things did not go our way. Did they succeed? Not every time, to say other wise would be both blind and stupid. The school did however, with me at least, teach me that there are consiquenses to your actions and that you had best own up and accept them. The idea that you had unlimited RIGHTS and no RESPONSIBILITIES to go with them is something that they did not want you to have. I hope that this will make sense to you User Fremte. Feel free to respond and/or rebutt. That is after all what this page is for!
 * Actually it's not for debating personal views. Rather it is for discussing the article's contents.  My understanding of wikipedia has grown since the post 18 months ago that started this thread per WP:NOTSOAPBOX, not posting personal opinions.  Things in articles need to be referenced.  If there are things that need changes, you are free to do so, as long as they meet policies.  --Fremte (talk) 15:29, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Exceptions to the Obvious BIAS
Okay, so kinda new to this. But here goes. The article on Wiki is largely anti-SJSA, which is fine, I suppose, but does not fit the unbiased content that Wikipedia was created for. If you want to put up a hate story about the school, get your own website or Facebook group - I have a few stories that could help. As for Wiki, lets keep it to the facts. I went to this school for three years and ran away (not to return) part way through a year so I can write from both the 'I hated it' POV and the objective twenty-years-later-POV. With this in mind, I have made changes to the intro article which was heavily biased. Yes, the school had corporal punishment but that should hardly take up 50% of the introduction to this article. There were also (updated edit notes as I did this) references that were written with clear bias... like the 'Coroner could not assign criminal...' This is a biased statement and unless you have a reference that suggests that the coroner in fact WANTED to assign criminal charges of negligence, than it is dishonest to imply that in your edits. SJSA was, for sure, a source for controversy. Writing a biased article about the school to forward your agenda does not allow the controversy to play out. It becomes a case of the 'truth' being written but the loudest idiot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.255.56.101 (talk) 02:51, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure how or where to properly edit a wiki page to reply to one of the statements in this paragraph, but if you're sharing stories about runaways, please be aware that I do not want my name used publicly. Tell our stories bud, but use good judgement and aliases.

Also I am fine and would encourage the content being 50% or more about corporal punishment. I spent 90% of my time there with a bruised ass. That is a fact regardless being cited somewhere or not. Let us not sugar coat abuse with fond fucking memories.

Exceptions to the text:
Declaration of Possible Conflict of Interest.

My name is Sherwood Botsford.

I have worked with the schools since January of 1976 I have 4 years experience working with St. John's Cathedral Boys' School, and 12 years working at this school During the remaining time, I was active in their outdoor program. I am currently employed by the school.

The article has a certain degree of bias. In accordance with Wikipedia principles, however, I will first try to discuss this on the discussion page to see if consensus can be reached.

Punishments

Six to eight kilometer runs are used as a discipline. The students are not forced to run. They can do it at whatever pace they wish. Of course this occurs during their free time, so there is some incentive to get back to the school. Remember that these are healthy young men. As a discipline this is less arduous than a game of hockey.

Moving logs as a discipline: The school has camps for teaching various skills in the bush on the property. Students may be assigned to cut and move firewood from the bush to these camps.

Janitors & Chores

The school has a Janitor that comes in 4 days a week. This has been true for several years.

For the last 20 years the school has had a full time maintenance man.

The boys still do chores. I agree with the school's notion that hard work is good experience.

Most boys spend about 4 hours per week doing cleanup in the residential wing, helping with kitchen cleanup, or cleaning/training/feeding the school's huskies.

Boot camp

The school does NOT resemble a boot camp. Pavement is a 10 minute walk from the school. There are no barriers to a student leaving at any time.

The only fences at the school are around the kennels to keep the dogs in, and around the sports fields to allow us to board cows and horses for the summer and save on mowing the grass.

The food is wholesome, with good variety, lots of veggies. I have eaten food at several universities, government facilities, and bush camps. The meals at St. John's compare favourably with the best of these.

Correctional Facility

The school has never been a correctional facility. The National Topographic Service of Canada acknowledged the error immediately on being notified and the notation was corrected on the next printing of the map. This statement makes the author look like s/he is muckraking, and reflects poorly on his/her objectivity. If you take a closer look at the map you will see a lot of other errors too not just in terms of labeling but locations. The school driveway is shown as meandering twice across a 60 foot deep ravine. Throughout the entire map the river bank is mis-positioned by up to 90 meters. This was not one of NTS's better examples of the cartographer's art.

Fatalities at the School

If the author is going to mention the loss of life on Lake Temiskaming, the author should also cite the coroners report, which found that the school could have prepared better, but had done nothing that was actually negligent; and also examine the changes that happened in the management of the outdoor program due to this tragedy. The author should also mention that the majority of the trip survivors returned of their own free will to the school the following year, and that none of the parents of the deceased wished to bring suit against the school.

The mention of boy on a snowshoe march may be a confusion of two incidents. Ted Milligan was involved in a volunteer training program at the Manitoba school for the annual Interschool Snowshoe race between the two schools. Near the end of a training run he collapsed from hypothermia. During his collapse his heart was kept beating by artificial means for something like a hundred minutes. He fully recovered and the treatment given him is part of the standard protocol for dealing with severe hypothermia.

The other case concerns Markus Janisch. He was a Manitoba student who was on the Interschool team. He collapsed during the race, that year held at Alberta, and died at the school from a brain aneurysm. It was an undetectable birth defect that the doctors said would have killed him soon regardless.

Please note that both students were in a voluntary program.

I submit that the author has a non-objective view of the school. I would invite the author to visit the school while it is in session to examine it, speak with boys and staff and see for herself.

Sgbotsford (talk) 20:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Nothing is stopping you from submitting factual corrections to the text, i.e., removing errors of fact. If there is unwarranted opinion, you can also improve the tone of the article per WP:tone "reliable sources". It is not okay to use your own original research per WP:NOR, though I think you're thinking the article already contains this.  However, because the article contains reference citations for the points made, it may be more a matter of writing style.
 * Personally, I am familiar with the school, having attended a single unfortunate year in the mid-1970's (and I remember you - you were definitely there in fall-1975). Just make sure you do not edit the parts of the article that refer to the history of physical discipline-cum-abuse with wooden paddles.  Perhaps the 50 mile snowshoe "races" are shortened, and boys who cannot keep up are no longer physically assaulted by other boys while teachers watch with tacit approval.  The "boot camp" description seems apt to me.  As for the correctional facility moniker, perhaps this was a mistake as you say, though your perception may be historical revisionism, though being physically beaten for leaving AWOL  - 10 strokes of the paddle (or swats in the jargon of the school) perhaps less resembles a boot camp as it does the Indian Residential Schools.  Well, as you imply, the school may have revised its program.  71.17.132.157 (talk) 23:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Re Exceptions to text
Please edit factually and there will be no quibbles from Fremte. Others will review changes also it seems. Maybe fill in details of other related articles also. Probably these are all only of limited interest anyway, though this one might be the most popular because this school still exists. The others are Company of the Cross and the other St John's school articles. Re invite to visit the school, been there. Fremte (talk) 04:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

How about asking St. Johns of alberta when they finally stopped beating children, it seems they were still doing it in the not too distant past given the child welfare investigation I got through a freedom of information request.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.45.104.4 (talk) 21:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Quotations of material
This will ultimately need to be summarized in narrative, article form, and the original quotations put into Wikisource with references from the article to here. This will be a pretty big job I think. --Fremte (talk) 16:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Relationship to bishops
The following is in reference #5:"Company of the Cross. 'St. John's/Company of the Cross Annual Report', 1971. 'In legal fact the company is two companies, each operated under the auspices of an Anglican bishop, one in Manitoba under the bishop of Rupert’s Land, the other in Alberta under the bishop of Edmonton. Since the bishops renew the members in the company’s service annually, they could presumably dissolve the company by refusing to admit new members.... Each time the one of the company’s activities raises public question or controversy ... the bishops find themselves assailed with the same questions: Are these people part of the church, or are they not, and if they are what controls does the church have over them?" The relationship is thus documented and referenced. --Fremte (talk) 22:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Tone tag
Reading the article, some copyeditting is probably in order. This is not the same as altering referenced facts however, which is what happend with edits by Sgbotsford. Will AGF and see how any further edits progress. --Fremte (talk) 22:54, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

School closure
On July 14th, 2008, the acting head master, Peter Jackson, posted a notice on the school's website that the school will be closed for the 2008- 2009 year. He cited a lack of instructors and a lack of students as the reason. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.181.176.179 (talk) 18:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

=> The school is permanently closed. Updated info on the page. 142.165.246.30 (talk) 18:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Edits
Fremte made most of the corrections that I pointed out. I have added some things back in regarding the core philosophy of the school, and a more correct version of the various fatalities that have occurred at the school. I will be adding references as I find them. I am optimistic, especially after looking at Fremte's profile page that as reasonable people we can come up with an accurate and balanced presentation of the school including the dark sides of it's past. 74.127.205.116 (talk) 13:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * quote: "dark sides of it's past."

It might say that it is all past now that this school is closed. From the read of this article and the related schools, it could be fairly & objectively, that this is a good thing - imagine such terrible behavior towards children! The teacher sgbotsford has a bias that is obvious. The edits by unlogged in people should be given substantially less credibility as those that are named one would think. I am really a new person at this, and will create a user name right away. I am Herb McMillan from New Brunswick, Canada and I have no connection with this school. 204.244.210.173 (talk) 04:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * YOU "have a bias that is obvious"! It would be POV to express a view in Wikipedia as to whether the school's closure (or anything else) is a good or bad thing. What you think is "terrible", others clearly thought was beneficial.Alarics (talk) 08:56, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

87.60.162.174 (talk) 22:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Entry by Rob Jensen, 27 October 2008, former pupil at St John's School of Ontario: Please be advised I deleted one sentence about a former teacher. That entry was unworthy of the rest of the article, which makes an attempt to be unbiased. It was also a cheap shot at someone who cannot defend himself, and was based on an anecdote (as such cannot be proven or disproven, might be true, and may not be).

Moved what seems to be a comment here
This can be restored if it is not in comment format and has a reference. Frankly, all of these headings about specific people appear troublesome -- the contributors appear to be acquainted with them. Referencing these sections is appropriate therefore. Respectfully --Fremte (talk) 18:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Other Founder's Children Not all of the founder's kids share Rick's view. Frank's other sons Robin, Chris, & Kevin also attended the school. Byfield's sons Link and Vince were also at the schools. In personal conversation with all of them, none shared Rick's bitterness. (Sgbotsford (talk) 14:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)) --Fremte (talk) 18:04, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, this is a clear violation of Wikipedia's policy on original research. Personal conversations are not adequate sources for writing an encyclopaedia. See also WP:V. Ground Zero | t 13:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Considering a "request for review"
There are enough contributions from people connected with the school, that I wonder if we should consider a review per this link. --Fremte (talk) 18:10, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

removing POV tag with no active discussion per Template:POV
I've removed an old neutrality tag from this page that appears to have no active discussion per the instructions at Template:POV:
 * This template is not meant to be a permanent resident on any article. Remove this template whenever:
 * There is consensus on the talkpage or the NPOV Noticeboard that the issue has been resolved
 * It is not clear what the neutrality issue is, and no satisfactory explanation has been given
 * In the absence of any discussion, or if the discussion has become dormant.

Since there's no evidence of ongoing discussion, I'm removing the tag for now. If discussion is continuing and I've failed to see it, however, please feel free to restore the template and continue to address the issues. Thanks to everybody working on this one! -- Khazar2 (talk) 03:49, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Shane bonetz
I would like to talk about St.Johns and how this has affected my life. I have stories of the abuse I have seen and endured myself. The emotional strain has been tramatic and is and now still too this day .. 2604:3D09:8B7E:74B0:E16E:D6C1:4B3C:56A7 (talk) 17:15, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid your personal experiences are not an apropriate subject for this page, which is solely concerned with improving the Wikipedia article about the school. -- Alarics (talk) 22:18, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Alumni
Looking for names of students and teachers for the years 1982-84 2604:3D09:8B7E:74B0:D099:98EC:FD4E:AF5C (talk) 22:36, 15 February 2022 (UTC)