Talk:Saint Lucy's Day

Untitled
Much of this information is already in the Celebrations part in the article Saint Lucy. Salmon 13:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

What, nothing of the holiday that the christians re-formed into a day about a saint? The one with all the really amusing traditions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.100.49.238 (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

How come they sing an Italian song?--71.126.189.44 01:40, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

December 2009
"This is likely to be the reason why the tradition has lived on in the Nordic countries in particular, as the nights in November and December are very dark and long before the snow has fallen, and the idea of light overcoming darkness is thus appealing. As with many dates of hednic importance the christian church learned to conquer the population to it's belives by remain the celebration date but somewhat change the name or replace with a new name and purpose."

Are you kidding? Wanna clean up the grammar/spelling on this? I think it's pretty clear this particular portion of the entry isn't very scholarly. Perhaps some sources would help here rather than an "everyone knows that..." approach. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monodefuego (talk • contribs) 05:49, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

The sentence about the hednic population is very confusing. Firstly, the word "hednic" is not listed in the Oxford English Dictionary. If the word meant is heathen, then some explanation should be offered as to why pre-christian peoples would have a watchnight based on fear of the christian devil/Lucifer. 130.225.25.207 (talk) 07:32, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Does the sentence "In Scandinavia this was also the date in the Gregorian calendar earlier celebrated by the hednic population that was afraid of Lucifer (the devil himself) " make any sense? If the population is hednic, what does it know about the christian devil? (The Lucifer reference is about the christian devil, Venus and more.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.227.137.18 (talk) 08:37, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed! I will sit down and (yet again) rewrite this article from Swenglish or Norwenglish or whatever this is. --Sparviere (talk) 04:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

OK, I made quite a few changes to language and tried to tidy up --Sparviere (talk) 05:00, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Copyedited section 'Saint Lucy/Lucia' and removed copyedit tag
Very interesting article. In England, children celebrate Halloween, when witches ride about in the sky on broomsticks, on 31 October, which I believe marked the end of the old year in the ancient Celtic calender. This, of course, is going back to pre-Christian times, which in England is effectively before the fourth century AD, since Roman Christianity was introduced into the province of Britannia then, and the pagan Anglo-Saxons who followed wouldn't have retained the old Celtic calender. Goes to show how ancient traditions can survive. Richard asr (talk) 10:28, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Soon after Halloween, in England, of course, we have a fire festival, on 5 November. In Yarmouth, on the Isle of Wight, there is a torch procession through the village to the bonfire. Richard asr (talk) 10:43, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Eyes
Question on the photo "Statue of St. Lucy at Saint Leonard of Port Maurice Church in the North End of Boston" - since martyrs' images usually depict the means of martyrdom, why does that statue hold out a dish containing eyes - not mentioned in any of the myths in the text ? Are we certain that the image is of the correct saint, or the correct St. Lucy (since there might be more than one). 213.115.10.98 (talk) 14:10, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The article on Saint Lucy goes into details on the eyes, so it appears the image is correct. But it does seem like something that would be good to explain in this article too. Siawase (talk) 04:36, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Enrico Altavilla
This article is a hoax, and cheap catholic propaganda. Scandinavian Lussi is no same person as Sicilian Lucy. Italian author Enrico Altavilla explains it clearly. Eliécer Guillén. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.109.75.6 (talk) 01:42, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Christmas themed costumes in Swedish Lucia processions
I live in Sweden, and as far as I know, tomtenissar and gingerbread men are usually only part of Lucia processions featuring small children. In processions featuring teenagers or adults, all males are dressed as stjärngossar.

There are two reasons as to why I'm not going to edit this article myself:
 * 1) I'm not 100% sure that I'm right about this, and would like someone to confirm it.
 * 2) I think this might be considered original research.

I do however think that this is something that should be looked over, as the article as it is now suggests that tomtenissar or gingerbread men are as common as stjärngossar in the Swedish Lucia processions, which I'm fairly sure isn't the case.

Xwayj (talk) 22:01, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Photo
For what it's worth, I find the second photo, described as being taken in 2006, to be far more spectacular and beautiful and frankly notable than the first. Let me recommend swapping the two. Rwflammang (talk) 01:46, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

The "2006" photo was only added to the article yesterday by. I have carried out your recommendation. Cheers to both of you! — &#124; Gareth Griffith-Jones &#124; The Welsh Buzzard&#124; — 10:43, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Concur,.

A better source for Reference 4 - Lussi?
> "The Swedish Syndrome: St.Lucy´s day, how a Sicialian woman can be worshiped in the far North"<1--can a better reference be located?-->

It looks like blog is quoting this researched article: http://www.griffith.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/54964/christmas-traditions.pdf

24.7.5.9 (talk) 07:30, 15 December 2013 (UTC) -E-

Last changes
This article is not about a celebration of a saint, it should not start with the saint. This article was butchered quite unnecessary. Hafspajen (talk) 21:47, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree and have restored the version prior to 's cuts. From my knowledge of the Lussi celebration and coverage of it and the solstice and Yule connections, this is a topic covered in many reliable sources, and this article is both the appropriate place for it to be covered in the encyclopedia and our only coverage of it. However, he is correct that there are insufficient citations in the article. And there may well be fat that shuld be cut. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

maybe can help with references for the Norwegian feast.. ? Hafspajen (talk) 09:42, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Lucia
Those who celebrate her most, in Sicily and Sweden, say Lucia, not Lucy. That should show in the article more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:37, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * True. And the Lutheran church venerates few saints, but is mostly Maria, Peter, Martyrs day and so on. It is not a veneration in the churches, but a public holliday. Hafspajen (talk) 09:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Name
Until recently, this was Saint Lucy's Day, now St Lucy's Day. Only the English say so. Americans would say St. Lucy's Day, Swedes. Most of those who celebrate it seem to agree on Lucia. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I said so before, as I see only now ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:39, 13 October 2014 (UTC)


 * While the Italians would use Lucia, 1) that's not the name of the holiday in English, and 2) this is the English Wikipedia, not the Italian Wikipedia. Naming conventions (use English) states we should title the article at its most common name in English, with the original or other common spellings listed early in the article. Gentgeen (talk) 08:05, 13 October 2014 (UTC)


 * The Swedes also say Lucia, and that doesn't appear in the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:30, 13 October 2014 (UTC)


 * English speakers really don't celebrate Saint Lucy's day as much. I've only heard it in the context of Swedish celebrations, where they always refer to it as "Saint Lucia's Day". I was shocked to see it translated to such an irrelevant version. I agree with Gerda that we should refer to her primarily as Lucia, rather than the much less used Lucy. --DavidMcP555 (talk) 07:46, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose move. The saint and her holy day have been known as St. Lucy and St. Lucy's Day forever in English. Scandinavians do not dominate that enough, just because they celebrate the day in their own way (which has little if anything to do with the actual historical woman), that we should name the article in another language. Scandinavian celebrations, and her name as used there, are covered sufficiently in the article as is. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:13, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Pronunciation
How does one pronounce "Lucia" and "Lussi"? Leegrc (talk) 14:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Lucia - in standard English rhymes with the fourth and fifth words in "I had to douche a patient." Lussi - in English would have to rhyme with fussy. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Denmark
It seems that the section on Denmark is written with a clear Christian bias. This may not be obvious to Christian readers. Most Danes even Christians (article in Danish) view this event as a secular one (celebration of light), even if it has a Christian theme. Light refers to long winter nights as well as the Christian Light - and also to a third type of light; as a hidden mark of resistance against German occupation (in WWII). This means that the day has a secular popular interpretation, the Christian "cover story" being just that, to all except Christians. I suggest to rewrite that section, so as to make it religiously neutral, but respecting both the value of that day to Christians, as well as the different value to common secular (non-religious) Danes. Also, so called "pagans" might have yet another interpretation of that day. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clsc (talk • contribs) 17:07, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

December 13 vs December 21
The whole article is unclear in reference to specific dates. Example: "Lusinatta" section:

Article section says: "Lussinatta, the Lussi Night, was marked in Sweden December 13" - which is unclear. The "was" - what time frame does that refer to? It is important, as in the Julian Calendar December 13 was Winter Solstice, but after the shift to the Gregorian Calendar (adopted in Britain 1782) December 13 was just a random date with no astronomical or seasonal significance. Lusinatta -- judged from context -- seems only to make sense if it was coupled to Winter Solstice, and Yule.

A Swedish source (here) states that the date of (St. Lucia, Lucinatta, Lucia-day, Lussi-mass ...) ie. December 13, predates the Gregorian which implies that "Lusinatta" was Dec 13 in the Julian Calendar, which is is equal to December 21 in the Gregorian, aka. now. Same source states use of the name "Little Yule" for the day, that it was among the most important days of the year, that it marked the start of Christmas month, and that with the move to the Gregorian calendar (in Sweden 1753) the date (not the celebration) "completely lost its appropriateness/significance".

The same argument is relevant for the mention of eg. "Winter Solstice" in the article (previously the 13, now the 21 - it did not move, we just changed calendar). It is important to be clear on what calendar system is used when discussing historical events, especially events related to astronomy, seasons, or other recurring events in Nature. December 13, 1700 in Britain or Sweden would be December 21 in 2014. clsc 18:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)


 * ADDED: I've just removed this sentence: "At the time of Saint Lucy's death, Winter solstice fell on December 21 and the date of the birth of Christ on the 25th." - there was no source for it, anyway. The "time of Saint Lucy's death" is apparently "304 A.D." (sic) However, "A.D." is a Christian term (Anno Domini), and "Year Zero" according to that term is the year of the birthday of the Christian main deity Jesus Christ. The date of this birthday, as far as I recall from memory (someone please correct me if wrong) was set/decided upon by the church, in the year 374 CE, or thereabouts. Meaning after the death of Lucy. So, "at the time of Saint Lucy's death," the date of the birth of Christ was not yet decided.


 * Further, "at the time of Saint Lucy's death," the ROMAN Julian calendar was used, not the later Christian one. This calendar was longer than the astronomical year, and hence astronomical events would not fall on the same date every year. So, if you want to put a statement up regarding what happened at what date while we were using a totally different calendar than the current one... well, you will have to provide the specific calculations for placing some event at this particular date or the other. That, or provide a link to a source that performs that calculation. This is no trivial matter, as none of our calendars are exactly the same lenght as the astronomical year.


 * For historical events, please, always be specific as to which calendar you talk about, and use the nomination Common_Era or CE in stead of A.D. when discussing temporal phenomena. For Christian religious discussions in-between Christians A.D. may probably do, but for neutral "encyclopaedic" discussions about time in a historical context this may actually be misleading. clsc (talk) 03:56, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Isn't the date of the solstice relatively easy to determine using a pole of a fixed height and recording the maximum shadow length (at noon)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.75.48.150 (talk) 20:11, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

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