Talk:Saint Methodius of Thessaloniki

Merge

 * Agree Info duplicated with his bro and then triplicated in their common article.Easier to solve the "issue" too.Xenovatis (talk) 10:10, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose It makes no sense to have one encyclopedia article about two people. That would be like combining Saints Peter and Paul into one article.  As far as possible, information in the article Saints Cyril and Methodius should be incorporated into the Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius articles.  Information that can not be incorporated into those articles should remain within the article Saints Cyril and Methodius.  Dgf32 (talk) 18:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

(Unnamed section)
Xenovatis 18:42, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Undid revisions by IP 137.208.80.253 as there was no debate, no substantiation and no evidence, while the evidence and sources already brought forward were disregarded.
 * I am wondering what the Economics University of Vienna admin's thoughts would be on students using university resources to promote nationalist ideologies and antihellenism while vandalising Wikipedia.

The phrase "Greek (i.e. Byzantine)" is erronneous as the two are not tautologous. The inhabitants of the Eastern Roman Empire called themselves Romans, and while Greek was the official and most widely spoken language there were many linguisticaly and ethnicaly non-Greek popullations which nonetheless were also Romans (eg Armenians,Slavs,Roma,Vlachs etc). The correct alternative to the above phrase would be Byzantine Greek. I have ammended the article to reflect this. I have also removed the reference to the possible Slavic origin of their mother. As there is no evidence produced yet to support this, it would be best placed in a section about their perception and veneration by the Slavic people and any other attendant myths. Please discuss before reverting. -Anaximandros-

User Juro, please provide some justification for reverting the abovementioned changes. Please provide some evidence of the brother's Slavic ancestry. Just changing it back is puerile. -Anaximandros-

VANDALISM by user Juro. He has refused to discuss and simply reverts my edits without providing justification. Please someone respond and inform of the correct procedure for dealing with such behavior. -Anaximandros-

Rename
In order to conform to wikipedia's naming conventions, this article needs to be moved to a new article title. "Saint", except in a few cases, is to be avoided in the title of an article. I would suggest "Methodius, Apostle to the Slavs", unless someone has a better suggestion. -- Pastordavid 17:24, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Why would this case not qualify as an exception?--Domitius 18:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess I think the burden lies on the exception, not vice-versa. That is, what compelling reason is there to make this article an exception?  The reasons not to make it an exception are those that brought about the guidelines -- primarily uniformity across Saints articles, and leaving the description of "Saint" to the article rather than the title. I have no problem leaving it where it is, but I would like to know the reason why.  -- Pastordavid 19:15, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Because this is the most common name, see Naming conventions (common names). I have no particularly strong objection to a rename if a satisfactory title can be found.--Domitius 19:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't disagree that "Saint X" is the most common name for many saints. However, it is not recommended in the naming conventions.  In the same way, clergy are often most commonly known as "Pastor X", but would be titled "First Name Last Name" on wikipedia. "Apostle to the Slavs" is listed as an aka on Catholic Forum, and it is the first thing said about him in the catholic encyclopedia.  -- Pastordavid 19:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Τοῦτο ἀληθὲς ἐστί. I don't really know what to say. They are recorded as saints in other encyclopedias (e.g. Britannica) and this is definitely the most common name. There is no "first name - last name" here, and knowing the editors of these articles, you're proposal will be highly unpopular. Finally, piling four words into the title isn't really going to keep things simple, is it? It's not like just one word. Nevertheless, make your proposal, if everyone else agrees, I won't object.--Domitius 19:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've been looking at the examples in the guideline, and if Saint Patrick can maintain that title, then so can Saint Methodius. I hope you know who he was.--Domitius 20:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, I am aware of St. Patrick. The difference between the two, for me, is that St. Patrick is highly notable in the secular world as St Patrick.  If the proposal is highly unpopular, I have no intention of changing the title; which is why I am discussing the change here rather than just changing it.  -- Pastordavid 22:43, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So far as I can tell there is no reason not to use the simple name "Methodius", as I think (and I could be wrong) that this subject is the one most commonly referred to by that name. This page could link to the disambig page like John B. Jones does, at the top of the article. However, if that is not correct, then I would have no objections to the "Methodius, Apostle to the Slavs" proposal above. John Carter 23:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Out of the question, WP:NAME states it clearly. St. Patrick is by no means more notable than Methodius, he's just more popular in the US because many people have Irish origin, that is all. But US doesn't stand for UniverSe. Any proposal but St. Methodius (or St. Patrick) would be original research. Miskin 23:20, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You misunderstand. I am not, nor is anyone else, trying to say that Methodius is not notable, or that I question his status as a Saint.  Not having "Saint" in the title says neither of those things about Methodius.  I think that examples of the clearly notable, sainted, John the Apostle, James, son of Zebedee, and Paul of Tarsus make clear that not having "saint" in the title does not say those things.  -- Pastordavid 23:34, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

The wp:naming conventions is not being very clear on this subject, as I see it, it contradicts wp:name. Doesn't Britannica's naming practice provide us with sufficient proof about the popularity of an anglophone descriptive term? Miskin 23:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that we should avoid Saint if we can and if the replacement is sufficently common. However, I see no serious alternative right now in this case (unless we really want to opt for plain "Methodius"). Str1977 (smile back) 23:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I strongly object to rename this article as Methodius, the Apostle of Slavs regarding NPOV. It is the Catholic title and not of the other churches. The Eastern Orthodox Church, which canonized him historically first, titled him as "equal-to-the-Apostles", not Apostle. The name of article are better not to be influenced by only one church, innoring other traditions. Aphaia 07:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

They were Greek
Please see similarly named section in St.Cyril before making any changes to the ehnonym. This, since the same arguments and sources apply to both. Thank you. 86.145.183.125 17:09, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/jo…rtutis_lt.html Pope John Paul II.
 * 1 Quotation from The Columbia Encyclopaedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05: (Cyril and Methodius, Saints) 869 and 884, respectively, “Greek missionaries, brothers, called Apostles to the Slavs and fathers of Slavonic literature. “
 * 2 Encyclopedia Britannica Saints Cyril and Methodius: "(Cyril who had)...been professor of philosophy at the patriarchal school in Constantinople, worked with Methodius, the abbot of a Greek monastery" The fact that Methodius was an abbot of a Greek monastery testifies to his being Greek and hence to his brother as well.
 * 3 "Cyril and Methodius….two Greek brothers..." Lunt, Slavic Review, June, 1964, p. 216
 * 4 “the Byzantine emperor sent two Greek monks, Cyril and Methodius, to spread Christianity to the Slavic people.” (“Global History & Geography” by Phillip Lefton, p. 130)
 * 5 “Kyrillos and Methodios were born in Thessalonica and were Greeks in origin, not Slavs” (V.Bogdanovich, History of the ancient Serbian literature, Belgrade 1980, pg.119).
 * 6 “Then in the ninth century Cyril and Methodius, two Greek monks from Thessalonica, developed the Cyrillic alphabet and spread both literacy and Christianity to the Slavs.” (“The Macedonian conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a transnational world” by Loring Danforth)
 * 7 “Two Greek brothers from Thessalonica, Constantine, who later later became a monk and took the name Cyril, and Methodius came to Great Moravia in 863 at the invitation of the Moravian Prince Rostislav” (“Comparative history of Slavic Literatures” by Dmitrij Cizevskij, page vi)
 * 8 “In answer to this appeal the emperor sent the two brothers Cyril and Methodius, who were Greeks of Thessalonica and had considerable knowledge of Slavonic languages”. (The Balkans: A history of Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Rumania, Turkey (1916)” by Forbes, Nevil, p. 21)
 * 9 “two Greek brothers, Cyril and Methodius, were sent in response to this request. This development was of particular importance to the formation of eastern European culture”. (“Historical Theology” by McGrath, p.125)
 * 10 “As the Slav tribes feel under the influence of Byzantium a considerable number of them were baptised but they were first converted to Christianity in Mass by the Greek brothers, Cyril and Methodius” (Black lamb and Grey Falcon: A journey through Yugoslavia” by Rebecca West, P. 710)
 * 11 “Cyril and Methodius, Saints [key], d. 869 and 884, respectively, Greek missionaries, brothers” (R. L. Wilkens book “Judaism and the Early Christian Mind” (1971))x
 * 12 “Cyril, St 827-69 and Methodius, St 826-85, known as the Apostles of the Slavs - Greek Christian missionaries- They were born in Thessalonica.” (“The Riverside Dictionary of Biography” by the American Heritage Dictionaries, p. 208)
 * 13 The Slav Pope John Paul II who in 31/12/1980 (in an official encyclical-Egregiae Virtutis-to the Catholic Church) and 14/2/1981(in the St. Clement church in Rome) said that Cyrillos and Methodios were “Greek brothers, born in Thessalonica”
 * 14 “Cyrillus autem et Methodius fratres, Graeci, Thessalonicae nati…”http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/j…irtutis_lt.html
 * 15 “two brothers, the Apostles of the Sclavonians or Slavs, born in Greece and educated in Constantinople.” (“Book of the Saints 1921″ by Monks Benedictine, P. 74)
 * 16 “The Byzantine court entrusted it to two brothers with wide experience o missionary work: Constantine the Philosopher, better known by his monastic name, Cyril and Methodius. Cyril and Methodius were Greeks.” (“Czechoslovakian Miniatures from Romanesque and Gothic Manuscripts” by Jan Kvet, p. 6)

Xenovatis (talk) 17:03, 25 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Dispute settled. According to 76.16.117.212 they are 'Byzantine Yugoslavians' now :-) Apcbg (talk) 14:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)