Talk:Saint Seiya/Archive 1

Shadow Cloth
[]

Gigantomachia
I'm unsure where to place the information about this novel. It was written by both Masami Kurumada and Tatsuya Hamazaki, and takes place between the Poseidon and Hades chapter.

Movies info added
A brief info about all Saint Seiya movies was added now. --Robvaler 06:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I added "Theme song" info. --Robvaler 07:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Possible copyvio
The "Other Information" section is the same word-for-word as the Saint Seiya introduction at http://www.saint-seiya.com/

Googlecache

This text is actually used all over the net on various Saint Seiya web pages. I have no idea who the origianl author was, or even what site used it first. Is it safe to consider it public domain then?


 * No, it isn't ever safe to assume so, number 1. Number 2, its redundant information with other sections. --Snarfies

Where are the films?
Abel, Erys, Lucifer... ¡There is no mention whatsoever about the films! Aren't they canonical?

Well, they actually aren't part of the continuity, but they should be included in the article. I'll try to do something about it sometime in the future. --Fue encontrado 11:09, 13 Dic 2005 (UTC)

I just started the Saint Seiya (films) article, but I can't finish it right now, so if anyone can contribute, I apreciate (hope you understand my english, it's not my native language...) --Pinguin 13:26, 5 Feb 2006

I just added the names of the films. Dave 15:47, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Possible title move
Shouldn't this be at "Knights of the Zodiac" or "Saint Seiya: Knights of the Zodiac"? --WhisperToMe 00:37, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Not necessarily. The original name of the series is indeed "Saint Seiya". I know that's not the way it is in the US, and I know we're discussing this for the American version of Wikipedia, but the article already has a redirect for "Knights of the Zodiac". I think it's all good. – Mackeriv 04:32, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * It is the original name, but which names is it known under in the English-speaking world? Check to see what the manga/anime is known as in the UK. --WhisperToMe 05:56, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * In the English-Speaking world, it is known as "Saint Seiya." It is currently being released by ADV Films under that title.  However, I understand it is being aired on Cartoon Network as "Knights of the Zodiac."  I don't have cable and cannot confirm.  The KotZ version is an edited and dub-only version.  Therefore, since the full version of the series is being issued as "Saint Seiya," this entry should remain where it is. --User:Snarfies, 7/14/04


 * You are correct that Cartoon Network uses "Knights of the Zodiac". Perhaps "Saint Seiya: Knights of the Zodiac" would be a good comprimise? (Oh, and just because it is edited and dubbed doesn't mean it doesn't count - Just weigh THAT against the ADV version.


 * But as it happens, the ORIGINAL title of the show is also "Saint Seiya." So both the original and one North American release (and to me, the fact that it is uncut DOES count, and you'll never convince me otherwise) bear that title.  Another point for keeping it here. --User:Snarfies, 7/24/04


 * ADV uses "Saint Seiya", Viz uses "Saint Seiya:Knights of the Zodiac" and Cartoon Network uses "Knights of the Zodiac". Hmm, which title should we use? --WhisperToMe 23:43, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying the uncut doesn't count. I'm saying that the DUB COUNTS too. --WhisperToMe 22:51, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Meh, I'll let this stay where this is, if only for the ADV version. --WhisperToMe 22:56, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, no, the "Knights of the Zodiac" Cartoon Network version should not really count because it is censored (not a so important reason) and the scenario has been altered so it can be a show of about 40 episodes (I dont know precisely) and they changed stuff, names, and a big lot of things. By the way, ADV also has a dub version which is uncut on the DVDs. Still "Kinghts of the Zodiac" is the french, italian and spanish name for the show, so it is not easy to know what's best, maybe Viz did the good choice by using both. --KiaN 13:16, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Transliteration
When romanizing the names of the characters, what l/r criterium are we using? Sometimes we use an l, but then again "Daidaros" uses r. Is this because it's the way the translation does it? Is it because the translator of the name didn't realize the Japanese name was a kanafied form of Daidalos? I'm just curious... --Shinobu 00:12, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Well for names coming from european, I think we should use the original transcription, as it is generally used. (for example it would not be nice to have Hadesu instead of Hades). I guess the transator just didn't realize for Daidalors, because he did it that way for the other names --KiaN 13:43, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Roger that. I'll change it and check the other names as well. Bye, Shinobu 14:04, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Changed "Aioros" to "Aiolos" because I think it was meant to sound Greek. On the same note I think (but I'm not sure) "Aioria" should be written "Aiolia". --Shinobu 07:27, 12 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, I really don't know what would be the correct way of romanizing here, since it's hard to even know what kind of names we're dealing with. I do think, though, that changing "Aioros" to "Aiolos" and leaving "Aioria" like that sounds pretty weird. --Kaonashi 15:55, 12 May 2005 (UTC)


 * @weird: Yeah, you're probably right.
 * @what kind of names: a lot of the names in the series come from Greek mythology. Aiolos is the god of the wind.
 * @aioria: I think a change to Aiolia is in order. It's actually the name of his island in mythology. --Shinobu 10:45, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone know Dohko's Mandarin-prononciation name? rather than the Japanese-transliterated Dohko?


 * Answer to above: Dohko is spelled Tonghu in Mandarin, but it seems Dohko is widely accepted even in China.

Nitpick

 * "...although Japanese animation had slowly been shown in both nations in the previous decade, with shows like Robotech and Mazinger Z."

I am going to be a bit pedantic about this, but Robotech is not exacly japanese animation. It is by Carl Maceck and Harmony Gold if I am not mistaken. There are far better examples of popular japanese animation broadcasted on Latin America TV stations, like Minki Momo, Candy Candy, Heidi the girl from the Alps, Remi (the boy without parents) and a lot of others.


 * I took a fast look at the Robotech article (since I don't know much about that one) and it seems like this was some kind of "Power Rangers"-like project, meaning they grabbed a few Japanese productions, mixed it all and "adapted it to American audiences". Is it that? In that case, yeah, maybe someone should change that title for something else. I'm from Brazil, and since there's already a good share of Brazil info right there, I think someone else should make that change. I don't know about the situation in the other countries. --Kaonashi 03:48, 22 May 2005 (UTC)


 * If I am correct, it was me who wrote that line. I put it in because Robotech is, firstly, one of the shows that gave people in latin america a sense of how big japanese animation actually was. Second, because while it is an altered version of the originals, it still retains much of the same spirit, and many of us would never have heard of stuff like Macross if it was not for Robotech. The "is robotech anime" debate is rather pointless in this instance as it has been quite obvious to me, having moved in anime fan circles in latin america for a very long while, that it had a huge impact on those who would later go on to become anime fans. Maybe this is not strictly NPOV, but on the other hand it is a claim I have seen made by countless anime magazines in latin america. --Shokanshi 11:18, 29 June 2005

Saints or Knights?
I'm wondering about which of those terms should be used in the article. A user just changed every instance of "knight" for "saint". Since I've never had the chance to see the path things took in the English version, I'm not sure what would be more suitable for an English-speaking audience on Wikipedia. I do know that, once Saint Seiya hit the west, pretty much every country adopted the "knight" term, in all the languages from this part of the globe. But I don't know what happened in the English translation. What do you think? --Kaonashi 04:33, 25 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, in the American release of Saint Seiya on DVD (not the censored Knights of the Zodiac), the word "saint" is used. Since this is also the way in the original anime, I think this is ok.

American? You must say the U.S release on DVD, which was made due to the pathetic and terribly edited release of cartoon network, totally ruining one of the best animes (as usually they do). In the other countries such as Mexico or Colombia it is known as Caballeros del Zodiaco = Knights of the Zodiac, and Saint Seiya in Argentina or Cavaleiros del Zodiaco in Brazil. In every country it was a huge success, of course there was no editing there.

Etymology
If we on the talk page are interested on the etymology of the names, chances are the reader will be too. I'm stopping adding names now because it appears to be 2 a.m. now, but I'll continue where I left of. This kind of information might be interesting for fans and the like. --Shinobu 00:12, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Major Animation Characters"
I think the characters on that new section aren't all "major characters". Most of those Marines, for example, are pretty much non-notable. If that name is to be kept, I believe it'd be a good idea to filter those and only maintain the ones that are really important to be shown there. For instance, Gold Saints are generally considered to be far more notable than Marines (and even inside that group, some are more imporatant to the story than others). Also, there isn't even a single Bronze one there. The images also lack information as to who is who. No captions (not even pop-up ones) were added. Ah, the images also lack any copyright information. Something (even if it's just something, yes) should be added on their pages as soon as possible, or they might be removed by other users. I also think that section should be moved a little below in the article. It's not looking good where it is.--Kaonashi 7 July 2005 01:43 (UTC)

No reference to the Steel Knights
The current version of the article does not mention the three Steel Knights of the first season (a secret project of Kido Saori's adoptive father IIRC). I would include the info, but I do not really know much about them. --Luis Dantas

The Steel knights (or steel saints)appeared before the Sanctuary saga (or 12 houses battle), they were 3 young boys, Shio, Cho and Jamichi(I have to check this last). They weared mechanical armors, specially designed and constructed by Kido Corporation due to Mitsumasa Kido orders before his death. They armors had animal forms like the other armors, a red bird (Shio), a blue swordfish (Cho) and a fox-like (the other boy), looks like their powers were never completely shown, (Shio uses a wrist mechanism to absorb and redirect energy-based attacks, Cho does the same against psychic-based powers using his helmet, and Dankichi(?) never does a damn thing! just runnig around and throwing jump kicks. They fought against the silver saints along with Seiya and the others. For unknown reasons they dissapeared completely at the start of the 12 houses battle, never returning again. I think they were not very popular.

--200.95.132.87 17:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)Lopetego

Technically this is not correct. The wiki-parser recovers nicely, but still it should be replaced by one of the following: (if you're feeling all xhtmlish) Note that except for case 1 the wiki-parser will allways generete . --Shinobu 22:27, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) An empty line (seperate 's &rarr; more inter-line spacing)
 * 2)   (I'm going with this for now)

edit: @Technically this is not correct: points for sarcasm (page history will tell you why). --Shinobu 23:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Doujinshi
Can anyone confirm the information about Saint Seiya contributing so much for the development of doujinshi? Besides, it contributed to doujinshi in general or mainly outside Japan? Wasn't there a strong doujinshi culture in Japan before Saint Seiya? I certainly agree and it is kinda obvious that Saint Seiya marked the history of japanese animation on South America, Western Europe and East Asia, but I never heard this about doujinshi. (I hope this wasn't confusing to read, it's been some time since I've last written in English) --Kensuke 19:06, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

-Aestheticism.com, one of the oldest yaoi dj fansites, claims that Saint Seiya is "one of the grandaddies of the yaoi genre." I do know that Saint Seiya doujinshi was drawn by CLAMP back when they were a doujinshi group, so I think it's possible.

Episode G
Didn't see any mention of the Saint Seiya: Episode G manga, currently being published in Japan. I'll add some info to it on the summary, but more would be welcome, like info on the characters section. Maybe I can do it, but it will take some time, so if anyone volunteers, it'll be nice. --Kensuke 19:14, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Separate article?
And last, but not least (man, I'd never been so active on wikipedia as today, please warn me if I'm doing anything wrong), can't we better this article format? My main suggestion is doing a separate article to the characters, like Evangelion, as it seems they occupy a lot of this article's space. Then, we could develop more aspects, like the development of the anime and manga, it's strong tie with the action figures produced by Bandai, the confusion wih Toei since the production of the Hades OVA, etc. What do you think? --Kensuke 19:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I think you're completely right. I'll try to see to that in the future. And a little help wouldn't hurt.--Fue encontrado 11:15, 13 Dic 2005 (UTC)

Strongest Gold Saint?
In the article someone insists that Saga is the strongest of the Gold Saints while admitting that Shaka is the only one who has attained the eighth sense. Why is this? In the Hades chapter we clearly see (as confirmed by the section on Shaka) Shaka single-handedly beating three other Gold Saints (Saga himself, plus Camus and Shura), and would have destroyed all three if not for those three's use of the forbidden technique (Athena Exclamation). Granted, one may argue that the fact Shaka was fooled by Saga's evil incarnation for so long is a strike against him; still, in terms of raw fighting power, I can't see how anyone can put Saga over Shaka.


 * I would say (here comes a list) the mightiest are Kanon (he has worn both a marine and a gold saint's armour with appropriate control of both), Shaka (who normally holds the same amount of power than Kanon) and Dohko (while in his old form) however the later, when back to his younger self, shall equal Shaka's best (Shaka's best is better than Kanon's best, now, I'm giving the name "best" to the period with at the cost of a high demand on cosmo, that is, at the cost of extra effort, they rise their cosmo to the besto f their possibilities but need to win fast before consuming it all) without showing his own best (althought Shaka's best is better employed and cost less than Doko's)... Camus, althought he is as powerful as Saga (weaker than Kanon in my regards, yet mighty still), can, at his best, equal the best of Kanon... Leo's best would be the average of the best of both Kanon and Saga while his normal is worse than Saga's and Kanon's normal... Althought he has more physical endurance and speed (the twins outdo him through mental prowess)... Scorpion, Aries, Sagitarius and Capricorn would stand as the average saints (weaker than Saga by as much as Saga is weaker than Kanon, at their best as strong as Saga's best) while Taurus and Aphrodite are the most weak (althought Aphrodite employs his few strengths with wit to gain an advantage in contrast with Andromeda whose wit makes him loose the benefits of his hiddened power), Taurus' best can, however, outdo the best of Scorpion, Aries, Sagitarius or Capricorn, but it's harder for him to reach it, and it lasts but a single attack... Death Mask would be somewhere between Aries and Aphrodite in power, employing his might in cruel and intelligent ways, much like a horror-film's serial killer... Of course, this is opinion... Based on how the different saints interacted with the knights... Now, I would say that when brought back to life by Hades they were brought weaker... Furthermore... From what I know about the story... Their true intentions were not against Athena so it might all just been faked... Now, it's essential to state the difference in might between Saga and Kanon... I would say it's not much, maybe twice the difference of might between the best of Poseidon's Marinas' bests and the Taurus' normal (if mathematically coherent)... There is a serious problem with no account of cosmoenergy in the numbered ki system of dragonball...


 * It is widely known that the strongest Gold Saint is no other than Shion Aries only DoKo in his young form can aproach to shion's level, But from the manga it seems that only the saint of pegasus has reached a level just as high of that of a god. Seiya is the reincarnation of the old pegasus saint who managed to beat Hades in the past that's why Hades seals seiya's cosmo and it is opened once again in tenkai hen.


 * That is not true. Where did you hear that Seiya is the reincarnation of someone else? Pegasus is only his protecting constellation, and nothing else. I've come in contact with everything story-wise released to this moment (except the later Episode G chapters and the Gigantomacchia novels) and I've never heard of such a thing. Not even as speculation. All Hades did in that story arc was to attack Seiya with his sword, putting a curse on him that prevents him from burning his cosmos. That is all. --Kaonashi 01:29, 21 October 2005 (UTC)


 * look, Mackeriv|Kaonashi, you've been in contact with just the anime, in the Hades manga it is very clear when Hades say that seiya is the reincarnation of an ancient pegasus saint.... the manga is in a shorter form at www.caballerosdelzodiaco.net it is in spanish, by the way seiya dies in the manga.


 * Eh? When did I say I only came in contact with the manga? I said I came in contact with everything. I've read all the manga. All its 48 volumes. No, the manga doesn't say he is the reincarnation of anything. You must be referring to the fact that Hades thought Seiya's face looked like the face of a previous Pegasus saint, the only man that ever hurt him. That is all that happens. And no, Seiya does not die. He passes out and the temple collapses. You can't know what happens after. Some thought he died. Other thought all 5 and Saori died. It was all speculation, until the Tenkai-hen movie came out and showed everyone that Seiya healed from that incident (as well as from the curse, later on that same movie). --Kaonashi 04:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but that's not "all that happens". After Hades noticed that Seiya's face is almost identical to that of the previous Pegasus saint, he accused Seiya of daring to come back only to hurt him more, to which Seiya replies he has no idea what Hades is talking about. Hades them tells Seiya he'll destroy him so completely his soul won't ever reincarnate again.


 * Perhaps your translated version is different than mine, but that's what I've read.


 * How is that proof that Seiya is the reincarnation of a saint from the past? The problem with the Saint Seiya fans that hit Wikipedia is that they like to speculate way too much. Stick with the facts. If Kurumada ever decides to speak of this subject again (in a work or otherwise), then you'll have your confirmation. Only then. --Kaonashi 00:56, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but if no one less than the freakin' greek god of the afterlife accuses someone of being a reicarnation, that's more than enough proof by any standards. If someone has enough authority to be knowledgeable about what happens after you die, it's him. Plus, there's a big difference between "look like" and "almost identical".

I don't know about what your guys think, but here is my rank list:

S rank--the strongest: Dohkn, yes he is the wise one and with hidden youth, Shaka, he is just unquestionablely powerful. If you want to mention shion, that's fine with me too.

Between S rank and A rank---Saga and his twin, yes they are both very powerful. I would say maybe Saga is a bit stronger, just looking at his endurance through Hades chapter. I guess if I put Mu on, people would argue that he isn't that strong, but in the comic and cartoon, he is almost as strong as Saga, and he was nominated to be the Pope after Saga in the list(if you know what I mean). And during the Athena Exclamation part, He is in the center as oppose to where Saga is. And he KO 2 gold saint at the same time(even tough they were weak). The sad part he was so weak once he walk into the castle. Hey! you can't blame him for that. Aiolos, even he isn't much mention in the comic and cartoon and he got killed by Shura when he was severly wounded, tired, and no gold cloth protection. seems weak, no way! He was the first in the line for pope. And his Gold Cloth? Seiya wear it so many times and defeat so many of them, Aiolia, Prosiedon(wow!!!!), some other gods in the ovas...etc

A rank--Camus, a very powerful saint, master of Hyoga(or the master of Hyoga's master in the cartoon), the technique "Aurora Execution" seems very strong and SUPER COLD(-273'C), Man, just by thinking about it, I would have a chill. but I still put him in A rank. Sorry to the Camus fans. Aiolia, technique "Lighting plasma" is very powerful, but he is not as strong as Mu, Mu hold him back with single hand in the pre-Athena exclamation part.

B rank--Shura and milo, I got to say Excalibur is a pretty strong technique, since it can almost cut anything, and it only failed once in battle(when Shiryu battling 3 guy in the hades chapter). Milo, Scarlet needle, very painful and takes a long time to finish them(You have 2 shot 13 of them, it takes so long!!!)

C rank--Aldebaran, very big guy, and kind hearted. Kind of dumb, maybe that's why he died so easily

D rank--Death Mask and Aphrodite, DO I REALLY HAVE TO MENTION THEM? By Ray

I believe we should skip the strongest gold saint part, it's clearly subjective and unless Kurumada says in an interview where we can provide a source saying "Soandso is the strongest saint" then we should keep the NPOV of Wikipedia and this article.DamianFinol 06:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Birth facts

 * 1) Wasn´t Shiryu born in China, not Japan?
 * 2) If Hyoga was born in 1972, he was not born in Russia, but in the Soviet Union. --Doidimais Brasil 23:46, August 21, 2005 (UTC)


 * Shiryu's nationality is Japanese but his training place "the five ancient peaks" are in China.
 * At the time when Russia was the Soviet Union or the U.S.S.R most people called it Russia. --Dick Grayson


 * Shiryu is Japanese. His training place was the five peaks of Rozan, in China. Hyoga was born and trained in Eastern Siberia. That is all the info that is ever given by Kurumada. Throwing in terms like "Russia" and "Soviet Union" on this qualifies as pure speculation and should be avoided.
 * There are several other mistakes and problems people added to this article lately. I should go and fix them already, as soon as I can get my mind on it. --Kaonashi 04:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * You are right, Kaonashi, Hyoga was born in Siberia but all the birthdates that I added for the characters I got from the Jump Comics Selection of the Saint Seiya Encyclopedia, I added the years because im going by the characters ages and when the anime was first released back in 1986. the anime looked like it took place in the 1980's such as how the characters dressed and the heavy metal guitars in the series soundtracks. -- Dick Grayson


 * Uhm, no, it's not that simple. They look that way because the series was created at that time. I know that calculating their years of birth was a good effort from you, but have you actually seen any source stating that info? I don't think there's any. Saint Seiya is situated in a different universe from ours. On these kind of anime series, you seldom see authors giving year of birth to their characters. What you usually see is age, blood type, weight, stuff like that, but not year of birth. It's a different thing. For example, Seiya was born on December 1st, but nobody know of which year. Guessing the year of birth of the characters of this series is speculation, once again. We should stick with the information given on official sources here. --Kaonashi 05:16, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Kaonashi i found proof that the first saint seiya series took place in the 80's in the episode " Fly, Pegasus, Fly! there is a close up of seiya sitting on his bed and next to him there is a calendar of a sail boat on the wall next to seiya that has the year 1987 on top of it. if you dont believe me watch that episode and see it for yourself. --Dick Grayson

I totally disagree with these Birth dates. Despite of the fact there are a date in a calendar in the anime, Kurumada hasn´t give any infomation abou years in the character's profiles on any source (for example, Saint Seiya Taizen). Your theory is good, but i think we have to base our information on the manga version, instead of using a possible mistake ocurred in the anime. --Robvaler 17:48, 15 June 2006 (UTC). P.S.: By the way, other pages with better information about Saint Seiya haven't put years either.

Style consistency in character info.
Currently some entries look like this: Birthplace: Iran *:Named after the ancient city Babel, known for its the biblical story the Tower of Babel.
 * Babel (Saint of Centaurus)Birthdate: Feb. 20, 1969

Wouldn't it be better to make them look like this? Or perhaps:
 * Babel (Saint of Centaurus)
 * Birthdate: Feb. 20, 1969
 * Birthplace: Iran
 * Named after the ancient city Babel, known for the biblical story the Tower of Babel.
 * Babel (Saint of Centaurus)
 * Birthdate: Feb. 20, 1969
 * Birthplace: Iran
 * Named after the ancient city Babel, known for the biblical story the Tower of Babel.

What do you think? Shinobu 06:49, 23 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm, the only difference bertween the last two is just spacing? Either of them look good to me, I'm just not sure of what would be better. I guess the last one. Anyways, the year will have to go, in a way or another. --Kaonashi 16:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

@The year will have to go: be bold.

There are still a number of inconsistencies to be solved. Compare: Age: 13 Birthdate: Dec.1, 1972 Birthplace: Japan Techniques: Pegasus Ryu Sei Ken (Pegasus Meteor Fist), Pegasus Suisei Ken (Pegasus Comet Fist), Pegasus Rolling Crush
 * Seiya (Saint of Pegasus)

Seiya is the main character of the series. ... In return, Athena always has an empathic feeling towards Seiya.
 * Babel (Saint of Centaurus)
 * Birthdate: Feb. 20, 1969
 * Birthplace: Iran
 * Named after the ancient city Babel, known for its the biblical story the Tower of Babel.

Birthplace: Tibet M&#363; is very soft spoken and possess a scholarly like persona. ... His attacks, see Shion. Maybe we could unify this to:
 * Shion (Late Saint of Aries and Pope of Sanctuary, master to M&#363;)Uses more powerful version of Mu's attacks including 'Star Dust Revolution', 'Crystal Wall', 'Starlight Extinction', and 'Crystal Net'
 * M&#363; (Saint of Aries)Birthdate: Mar. 27, 1966
 *  (Saint of ...)
 * Birthdate:
 * Birthplace: 

Main text goes here.
 * Named after ... (if applicable)

Should we indent the main text? Should we give those characters with more than two or three sentences text there own headings? In what other respects should the layout of large and small items be different? Your opinions please. Shinobu 22:57, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

My contribution...
Just a few points on all those years of reading both the manga and anime of Saint Seiya (since it started, literally!)~

Steel saints - only shown in the anime, is a secret project undertaken by the Kido foundation to help the bronze saints. The armours are made by high-level technology and have the ability to transform between some sort of transport and an armour (eg Fox --> car, Bird --> plane, Dolphine --> glider on water). They played a major role in saving Athena and the bronze saints against Babel, and becomes the source of information for the Kido foundation.

Saint Seiya G is a new series about the lives of the Golden Saints during the 13yrs between Saga gaining throne to the pope and the appearance of Seiya and co. Aiolia seems to be the main character, although each episode seems to feature one of the other Gold Saints in their abilities to fight. It explains the reasons for Death Mask knowing Saga to be the fake pope, and the reason why Shura also stood on Saga's side even though he was loyal to Athena. The story is based on the battle between Gold Saints and the Gods of Gigan. In this manga, it also has Saga stating that Shaka is the only Gold Saint who has the ability to freely control the most fearful power (New Star - the cosmo needed to produce a special move like Galaxian Explosion) - hence answering the question of who the strongest Gold Saint is.

In the article, someone also put that Shaka was the reincarnation of Buddha and was therefore named as 'the man closest to God'. That is actually incorrect. Shaka is perceived to be the reincarnation of Buddha because of his power and abilities. And he is said to be closest to God was because of 1, his power, and 2, most importantly, the fact that he was the only man who has gained the 8th sense and will never die. I have changed these on the original article - I hope the author wouldn't mind! (please change it back if you do mind) --DrTintin

Recent edits
I just made some major changes to the article. Please look them over. Somethings I would like feedback/checking on: --Maru (talk) Contribs 06:58, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Spacing. The long lists I put a space between each character, but I'm not sure whether that's any good.
 * The lists. It seems we have a complete list of characters. Do we really need them all?
 * My comments. In places I inserted inline comments, seeking clarification or confirmation. I also took out a number of comments, either fixing or confirming the subject matter.
 * The notes. There was a curious system of ***s going on.  This is not in-house style, so most of the notes I took out. Some I left, and another group I made into a section.  Doublecheck this especially, whether they need to be put back in, or more removed, or put in individual articles or what.

Too long
This article is getting way too long. Anyone care for a split? Shinobu 20:51, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. I made a table of the Bronze Knights (it did make the section look cleaner), but this article definitely needs to be splitted. ElTchanggo 04:00, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I also agree. I propose making the character section much shorter, following that table you did, and putting its complete version on a new article. What do you think? Dave 15:49, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I suggest also a separated article for every Chapter(Sanctuary, Asgard, Poseidon, Hades, Next Dimension, Lost Canvas, Movies) Sirtao 18:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone add more information about the knights?
I think the characters are more interesting than the storyline. Shinbu 19:18, 28 December 2005

Philippine airing
Anyone knows when Saint Seiya was aired in the Philippines? I was fortunate to watch it Hong Kong, I think in 1987 or 88. Can't remember.

Separate Articles
Kudos to whoever put up seperate articles- but the other 3 bronzies, the goldies, some silvers, Saori, Julian, and Kiki need an article too.

Does any one thinks the ova is able to air on Adult swim?
Man, since they cut many of the shit because of "Bloody and Violent", they can surely air it out on Adult swim since Samurai Champloo was more "Bloody and Violent" The new ova should suit the taste of the Adult Swim Audience. Every Eposide is about 18 minutes which gives enough time for commerical for half hour of show. the whole OVA of Sancturary consist of 14 eposide which is short and shouldn't be cancell.

Canon or non-canon
If this revert war goes on I will ask for administration intervention, which could culminate with the transgressors receiving edit bans for a while. This matter could be settled on the talk page first with a consensus built by voting, which is a guideline proposed by wikipedia itself for controversial matters. So please vote and sign as bellow: Loudenvier 14:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Question: Is Episode G Manga canon or non-canon?
Please vote by copying the respective code bellow depending on your interpretation (copy from the * to the last ~): 
 * * canon ~
 * * non-canon

Comments

 * You can substantiate your voting here with comments. Please sign your posts with ~ !

Episode G states that the four "unknown" cloths are bronze, but n fact in Gigantomachia, one of the four appears and thus the cloth is neither bronze, gold or silver. Therefore i vote Episode G to be non-canon. Refuteku
 * ''Hi, I asked to sign using four "~"( ~ ). You cuted the nowiki tags and the !. Sorry for confusing it all Loudenvier 19:25, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Since if the Gigantomachia itself is canon or not is unknown, it's not the best source to use for settle Episode G being canon or not. And I suggest to keep discussions about Episode G in the Saint_Seiya_Episode_G article's Talk section. Sirtao 18:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

About Next Dimension
The Next Dimension-Meiō Shinwa manga is NOT Canon While there were dubts of it being canon or not, the 5th chapter fixed the problem: Next Dimension is NOT canon. There were indication of it not being canon, but untile Chapter#5 none of them was decisive. The fact Tenma wore the Cloth without knowing it was a Cloth nor of being a Saint and the cloth being the FINAL PEGASUS CLOTH WITH ATHENA'S BLOOD is a proof enough. The other indications were: I though of write this here before correcting the entry to read what do you all think about this.Sirtao 01:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Battle with Hades different
 * Dōko and Sion promoted from Bronze to Gold(makes no sense, Saint are Saint of ONE constellation, cannot become saint of anything else)
 * Pandora's Box(container of the Cloth) being called Cloth's Box.

About Lost Canvas
At this date, there is no indication of The Lost Canvas-Meiō Shinwa manga NOT being Canon. It doesn't contradicts the old manga in any way other than the Bronze Cloths being designed slightly different.Sirtao 01:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Saint Seiya Video Games
I noticed that there is no mention of the Saint Seiya video games in the article. Is there a particular reason for this? I think at least the PS2 game should be mentioned as it got a release throughout Europe (including England where the series has never been shown). There is also a forthcoming game release that could be mentioned.


 * Saint Seiya Video Game Page/Article.
 * Currently we only have a small section talking about the video games, hopefully as the numbers of the editors increases we can create actual pages to each video games and links from/to this page. Or if anyone want to start them up, you are more than welcome to.Yajaec 19:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Saga problem: Controdiction and Conflicts with other member
Is it me or does it seem like there's a controdiction in the Gemini Saga page in the "Saga: Dual Nature or Evil Entity?" section.

In the begining of article it compares the spirit that possessed Sage to the one that possessed Shun to be the same(Hades)...and then toward the bottom it says

"...He wanted to take over Sanctuary and gain control of Athena's power to defend the world from the incoming threats of Poseidon and Hades, as he believed Athena was not strong enough for the tasks...."

Now "IF" the spirit is the same, why in the bottom of the article would Saga be defending against Hades, himself. Could someone look into that please (I don't want to start an re-editing war since this one other member feels "Strongly" about it).

Also I've been having a "difference in opinion" with the same member regarding the spirit that possessed Saga. This member argued that it IS Hades' spirit. However I don't believe that is the case based on these 3 area that has shown in the series.

1. The "Yours Ever" necklace. Pandora gave to Shun as baby saying this will make link with Hades no matter where Shun hides. As Shun is "chosen" to be Hades' body here on earth. There's a reason Hades choose Shun (gentle spirit and/or what author would say etc.) Since they make it a point to have such important necklace for Shun, why in the world would Hades go around and posess Saga. "Oh, since Shun is not adult yet, let me just make a pit stop at Saga's first". That controdict the point of having such necklace and also at the time, I might add that Hades' spirit isn't awaken yet according to the conversation that Hypnos and Thanatos had with Pandora (in manga).

2. If Saga's evil spirit is the same as the one that possessed Shun which everyone know is Hades' spirit. As a GOD who commands 108 hell warriors himself, why in the world would he conceal his truth identity during the time in sanctuary? Hades! GOD! Great power!! No need to hide!!!

3. Hair color of possession is similar (in manga, black, they all look black, there's only so many shades of black in manga) but possession reaction is different. Saga's "good" self still shows up half of the time, shows that he still have a hold on himself and the spirit that posessed him did not take over completely and he can even make conversation to the evil part (I don't think you can casually talk to a god like Hades). But with Shun, it's a complete take over. Shun barely, just barely resurfaced again when Ikki showed up. If anyone's possessed by a god like spirit, I would say no one would be able to gain, if any bit of control back at all like Shun. So here anyone can see that it's not the same spirit.

I believe that having the part which just speculation of the spirit is the same in the begining of that article is mis-leading but the other member believe otherwise saying it is true.

Now, I've been going "back and forth" with this other member, I would like someone, hopefully a high board member or something to step in to resolve this since much unpleasent conversations have been exchanged (articles re-edited, things were said, feeling were hurt).

Could someone, authority/non-bias personal help me resolve this? Thank you Yajaec 16:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Already replied to all this in a perfectly unbiased way. It has been noted by Ikki that the transformation was similar, you can't do anything about it. Al


 * This is not the right article to discuss it.


 * 1 : no there's no contradiction, Hades is free to act as he want without Shun
 * 2 : If he wants to destroy the sanctuary from within, he'd better conceal his identity
 * 3 : Shun reacted exactly like Saga by taking control of his body again.


 * First, understand that Wikipedia is Wikipedia. It's a free encyclopedia that anyone can edit, so any complains that your edits were reverted will never be acceptable. It's the rule.


 * You want to add unsourced speculation and that's why you were reverted. Folken de Fanel 08:47, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

I'm asking for a high authority's help, since you are the involved party with such disagreement I would like a different unbias authority to work as a medium to resolve this. I don't see solid evidence in your reasons, I suggest that since too much have been said between you and I, you not step in as the medium. Unless you are the "ONLY" caretaker to the Saint Seiya project, then I shall seek a different authority as medium to resolve the issues.

To prevent any more resentment between members, I suggest you step back while I seek such medium.Yajaec 17:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * We're on Wikipedia, I can contribute even if you don't like it.


 * I am unbiased.


 * I have solid evidence. That you're too biased to see them is not recievable. Folken de Fanel 21:57, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

":We're on Wikipedia, I can contribute even if you don't like it." I never expressed that I don't like you contributing, I'm only disagreeing on this perticler article.

Again, I would only continue to discuss this through a middle ground person, I'm will follow through propert Wiki channel till this is resolved. You are the involved party, therefore you are not unbiase nor qualify to be in the medium position. I'm kindly asking you to step back till a medium person is in place to resolve this.Yajaec 22:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not "involved", you're the only problem. I am unbiased. I am in a medium position. You won't ask me to "step back" (I remember you that I can contribute whenever and wherever I want on Wikipedia, that's the basic principle here), and it has already been resolved : you're wrong. I can't see any proof from you. I can't see any reason. You're just frustrated that your own little theory was reverted. The manga IS the manga. It exists. Period. There's no point in denying it existence. Everything I said was taken directly from the manga. Show me a SINGLE proof of what you're saying.

Folken de Fanel 23:27, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

By asking you to step back as in, not involve in the continueation of this debate, it is not asking you to stop contributing, please don't assume that's what I meant. Too much has already been said, I already explained my position and I WILL seek a medium because it is your input and conclusion that I don't agreed with. I have the right to summon such medium and I WILL go all the way, offical Wiki authorities and all, till this is resolved. Yajaec 16:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You can seek whatever you want, but I will involve in any discussion you'll create, because I won't let you spread your incorrect and biased ideas about my edits.
 * To have a mediation, you need two parties. If you seek to eliminate the other party by denying it the right to involve in the discussion, you're out of your rights.


 * We have already discussed this in details. I've already presented all the undisputable proof I had, which are in the manga, I already explained the origin of your theories, I've explained why it was reverted...I have also asked you what were your proof, you had none.


 * The matter was already settled. That you request for a "mediation" while trying to push me out of the said mediation won't get you any further...Folken de Fanel 11:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Request for Medium with extensive Saint Seiya knowledge and reliable credential on Wikipedia
In hope of resolving issues between myself and one other member on the disagreement of Gemini Saga's article, I am requesting a mediator to step in and help us peacefully resolve this difference in view.


 * Disagreement already solved when proof has been shown and when Yajaec was unable to answer it.Folken de Fanel

According to Wikipedia's rule, members in conflicts regarding the article should first seek unoffical 3rd party mediator to resolve issues rather than creating editing war (3RR rule). If no mediator can be found I will take the next step and make an offical request to the administors but I would like to resolve this first as smoothly as possible.

I believe everyone have great passion for the Saint Seiya page and want to make it as best as possible, however different members in different regins maybe see views differently so I'm asking for a mediator with extensive Saint Seiya knowledge and reliable credential here on Wikipedia to help us resolve this peacefully and smoothly.
 * I assure you that I have reliable credential and extensive knowledge about Saint Seiya (because that's what the matter is about). Thus you can't ignore what I said to you earlier. I've given proof from the manga and from databooks. The matter is thus settled. Folken de Fanel

Please only respond to this post if you have the credential (wiki history in Saint Seiya knowledge and mediation help with other members in conflicts is a pluse) or you have information as to where to seek such mediator.
 * It is useless to ask for "wiki history in Saint Seiya knowledge" if you refuse to let me talk : I remind you that I am one of the only regular Saint Seiya contributor currently in activity here, and that I've already provided enough proof of Saint Seiya knowledge to which you were unable to answer.Folken de Fanel 11:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much and apology to other members who have endured and witness the unpleasant conflicts from the posting. Yajaec 17:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

I see, you said that you are the only regular Saint Seiya contributor active here but that does not make your point of view always right (and again, this is not an accusation, just a statment).
 * I does because I know what I'm talking about, contrary to you. Remember the manga and the Jump Gold ?
 * I have great knowledge about Saint Seiya, thus I'm always right because I KNOW what I'm talking about. Folken de Fanel

The proof that you told me was based only on your own speculation, you draw conclusion from what little was revealed and there are no where in the manga that Hades admit that he was responsible for Saga's possession nor any one clearly said that Hades was resposible too.
 * 1) No but as I said, the exact same transformation occured : Saga, when becoming bad, had his hair turning from blond to jet-black. The same thing happened to Shun when he was possessed by Hades, his hair turned jet-black. And it is revealed that it was because Hades' own hair was jet-black.
 * It's a visual clue, Kurumada didn't get his idea of the jet-black hair out of nowhere. Besides, when he specifically makes a character notice the similarity, it has become something perfectly relevant to the question Saga's case, and hiding it would be more than "speculations".


 * 2) What you tried to do, was deleting evidences (mostly by hiding the color similarities in the manga and replacing them with statements about the anime colors which of course aren't similars to the manga's) in order to favor your own theory.


 * 3) I "drew conclusions" ? "Nowhere revealed in the manga" ? But, remind me, isn't what you tried to do with Ares also "drawing conclusion from what isn't in the manga" ?
 * And also, I'm sorry, but Saga's and Shun's transformation similarity IS in the manga, and it's even noted by a character.
 * But as I explained, you Ares theory does really come out of nowhere. With no support whatsoever.


 * 4) As I've already said, I've never written in the article that "Kurumada said that Saga was possessed by hades". No. I've just pointed out relevant facts from the manga. Folken de Fanel

And my explaination was logical from what author put into the manga for what Ikki said was only comparing the likeliness of how a person would look like if possessed.
 * No. Here you're really speculating and making assumptions.


 * Ikki noted a similarity, so he noted a similarity. Period. Folken de Fanel

All I'm saying is that I disagreed with what you put in since it is more of personal opinion from your own conclusion and I did countered that opinion with actual events shown by the author in the manga.
 * But what are you talking about ?


 * You can't disagree because all I've done is quoting the manga. You only disagree because you have your own theorry which you tried to impose. Then you have "countered" nothing. You've just made assumptions and interpreted things in your own way, things that don't even exist in the manga.Folken de Fanel


 * By the way, I wonder where are all your so-called "evidence" in the manga ? Like I said, nowhere.
 * You've not proved that Saga was possessed by Ares, you haven't proved that Saga's and Shun's transformation aren't similar, you haven't proved that Ikki didn't note the similarities. Folken de Fanel

I'm not refusing to let you talk, all I'm saying is that, and please don't mistaken again, you back away from farther debate with me for I no longer wish to continue this on going arguement.
 * If you don't wish to "continue" it, then drop the case, and don't talk anymore about "mediation".


 * If you don't want me to talk to you (or if you don't want to talk to me) don't involve anymore in this matter.


 * Because like I said, every one can edit Wikipedia, that's precisely how Wikipedia work. And I am concerned with the articles about saint Seiya, and I have a consequent knowledge about Saint Seiya (I've already proved it) so I will always contribute to make the articles better.


 * You won't push me out of the "mediation", because I won't let you spread only your own personal views which aren't faithfull to the manga.Folken de Fanel

I see that we both stood firmly on our own position, therefore I'm asking a mediator to help us find a common ground or reveal additional info that may help us resolve this.
 * There is no need for mediation, because i'm right and the matter has already been settled. You juste have to listen to me and to stop being so stubborn. The only thing to resolve is that you have you to give up your speculations.
 * Besides, as I know Saint seiya, I know there's isn't anymore info except what was already in the article and what i explained to you.Folken de Fanel

Finding a mediator is not to put you down nor gang upon you. And please don't say it's unless to find a mediator, unless you don't care about other people's contributions and insights.
 * Other people can't do anymore than I've done. There's the manga, from which there are several evidences, there is the Jump Gold which explained the Arles thing, and that's all. Nobody can do anything more. Except you : you just have to accept that your theories are wrong.Folken de Fanel 11:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I would like to have the mediator to help all party to settle this once for all so there maybe no questions in the future again.Yajaec 15:23, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I do not see the point in this discussion. If the matter in question is not reably cited elsewhere then it's not supposed to be in wikipedia. If it is only a conjecture about something a character supposedly meant, then it's original research or POV unless it is cited by the author or some external, reliable source. Please, keep it in mind when going further with this discussion. There are many sections of this article that could be improved, and focusing on this small matter is a big waste of time. Loudenvier 16:38, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, from what I see is that user: Folken de Fanel draw conslusion based on his own POV on Saga's possession which he feels "strongly" about.


 * No. I didn't drew any conclusion (obviously you don't know what "conclusion" means) : I've merely pointed out established and undisputable FACTS from the manga.
 * What you have done was altering and hiding these facts in order to favor your conclusions based on your own POV on Saga's possession which you felt "strongly" about.


 * Do I still need to remind you that :
 * 1) the same hair color change occurs when both Saga and Shun are possessed
 * 2) It has been explained that the change happened because Hades has jet-black hairs
 * 3) Ikki noted the similarities between the 2 transformations


 * On the over hand, all you did was making assumptions about a supposed possession by Ares, which has N-E-V-E-R been even hinted in the manga, just because the anime script-writers gave another name to Saga during the sanctuary arc, which in fact wasn't even related to Ares. And you tried to hide facts from the manga in order to favor your own POV about the so-called possession by "Ares".Folken de Fanel

The author did not present nor stated clearly, without a doubt that it is the same spirit nor any other reliable source backs up that claim.
 * Like I said, I've merely pointed out various facts from the manga. I've never drawn any conclusion. On the other hand you have tried to manipulate information in order to mislead the readers and to favor your POV.Folken de Fanel

My fear is that this POV might mislead and mis-inform other readers.
 * First you don't have any fear, you just want to impose your POV.
 * Then, I can't see how taking facts from the manga into account would be "misinformation". On the other hand, I can't see how hiding facts and making up your own theories about Ares would not be misinforming. Folken de Fanel

Since user: Folken de Fanel truely believe that the information he provided is absolutly trueful which I feel differently
 * You don't have to feel differently. This isn't a question of opinion, here. It's fact, it's in the manga.Folken de Fanel

, and if I proceed to remove that POV, user: Folken de Fanel would not agree on it.
 * Of course, because first you're deleting authentic facts from the manga, and then replacing it by your own POV and imposing it, based only on your own guesses and not on any fact from the manga. It's obvious that I won't let you do this.


 * And strangely, you're always accusing my edits, but you do not talk so much about your edits. Folken de Fanel

therefore I am requesting such mediator to help with this.
 * No need, I've already explained everything.Folken de Fanel

I can understand how there are many sections for the article that could be improved and focusing on this what might seem as a "small matter" is a waste of time but big problem usually started with a small one that roll with the snowball effects. I am all for continue in improving other sections of the articles but if user: Folken de Fanel and I could not see eye to eye on even a small matter as this like you suggested, then we might kept stepping on each other's toe while improving other sections of Saint Seiya. Thank you for your input, any helpful suggestion is welcomed. Yajaec 17:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC) I can't see how you can "improve" anything here by adding your POV everywhere. Folken de Fanel 11:53, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Yajaec's edits
Ok, since yajaec seems reluctant to simply mention what were the changes he actually made to the article, let's analyze them here:



To the right : "my" version. To the left : his version.


 * So 1st change : erasing the mention of Hades, imposing the mention of Ares.

Where does this Ares comes ? From nowhere, he isn't even an existing character in the story. Is this mention explained later on in the changes ? No, never. -> First violation of the NPOV rule.


 * 2nd change : initial sentence : "the hair of both Saga and Shun turned jet black, like the hair of the true body of Hades". New sentence : "the hair of both Saga and Shun changed color, Saga from royal blue to gray and Shun from forest green to dark maroon black"

You can notice the insidious deletion of existing information from the manga, and it's replacement by another personal version in order to hide an information to artificially favoring and increasing the "probability" of his POV. But at the price of a complete alteration and deformation of the original intent of the author. -> 2nd violation of NPOV rule.

But anyway, a big part of the section (of which neither Yajaec no me are responsible) it too much subjective...I'll rewrite the section in order to concentrate on the facts.

Folken de Fanel 12:21, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

Hold it there, let's not making attacks and using words like "insidious". There's no hidden agenda any where. All I'm saying is that Folken de Fanel mention in his observation of Saga's possessing spirit is the same as Hades' spirit from manga is his POV. Same as my own POV in regarding the Ares input. If he can put in his POV on Saga's possession from drawing conclusion based on the black hair (which there's only so many shade of black in manga) then so can I put in my POV, just making my point here on POV input.
 * No, again, I've merely stated facts from the manga but have not imposed a "POV". It was just observation. On the other hand, from where does your POV come ? From nowhere...

However, there's a chance that the way Folken de Fanel worded the input was only compareing and not stating an absolute fact, then that can be imporved by better using of wording.

The whole article didn't clearly separate the storyline of manga from the animation. I added in the Saga's blue hair to grey and Shun's green to reddish black hair input only as an additional point to show that the possessing spirit is not the same. If I failed to mention that this is the difference from manga then I apologize.
 * First you didn't "add" it, you replaced the mention about the manga colors with the mention of the anime colors. Which is hiding information.
 * Second, you don't prove anything with it, because the anime colors have nothing to do with the original story of the manga. The mangaka never takes part in the conception of the anime, the colors are only decided by the anime staff, which never consult the author. In the anime, for example, Saori's hair is purple, yet in the few colored pages of the manga, Kurumada made her hair light brown. Shion has green hair in the anime, whereas in the manga coloration he is blond.
 * And in the manga Ikki himself notes that Shun's hair has become black...
 * Even the coloration of Hades' hair is not the same. Folken de Fanel

As to your explaination for the compareson in the possession, I already answered many time with facts from the series and yet you kept on saying that I provided none.
 * I've asked you facts, that is, not biaised and disputable interpretations, but facts.Folken de Fanel

Quote:

Do I still need to remind you that : 1) the same hair color change occurs when both Saga and Shun are possessed 2) It has been explained that the change happened because Hades has jet-black hairs 3) Ikki noted the similarities between the 2 transformations

my replys: 1) Yes, same color of black in manga. Only to show the diffences in personality after possession, not necesarry means same spirit, the fact of what Ikki said was only in comparson as when a person (like Saga) is "possessed". Ikki never said that it is the same spirit as the one possessed Saga. Untill this is clearly stated in manga or any where else AND if author said it IS the same spirit, it's only a POV in your observation.
 * This is only speculation and interpretation. I see no fact here. Folken de Fanel

2) Yes, Hades' has jet-black hair but only to Shun, there's no where any where in manga saying that Saga's hair turn's black is also because Hades' has jet black hair.
 * This is only speculation and interpretation. I see no fact here. Folken de Fanel

3) Ikki noted the "similarities" between the 2 transformations. What is "similar" is not the "SAME". And not where in manga that support, without a doubt that the spirit is the SAME. Only similar in the symtom of being possessed.
 * This is only speculation and interpretation. I see no fact here. Where is it said that Ikki only notes the "similarity" ? Besides, even if he notes the similarity, that means the same thing happened. Folken de Fanel

And I urge you, please don't assume that I want to "impose" or "hide the fact" I am also a Saint Seiya follower and I am trying to talk peacefully with you. I have not ALWAYS accusing your edition, I've never came accross your edition before the Saga article, please don't use words like that, if you have problem with my changes, you are welcome to openly talk to me about it without using harsh words or assuming words and if I said something that offended you, I apologize here.

And don't say, and I quote "I can't see how you can "improve" anything here by adding your POV everywhere." I maded a couple contribution here in the Saint Seiya section already, Saga page is one of them and it's the first encounter I have with you, so how can you say that I'm adding POV everywhere. I only add in the Ares part to make a point that if the POV of Saga's spirit is Hades' spirit can be put in, so can the observation of Ares base on the similarity of the name Arles. Maybe that's not the right way to go about it but I made no further arguement on Ares theory. However, I already provided solid facts regarding to the compareson in the Hades' spirit possessions which I see your observation as a POV.
 * Solid fact is solid fact, sorry. You can try to interprete in your own way whatever you want, it won't be solid fact 'till it's a manga dialogue.Folken de Fanel

So here is the break down of what's in debate now. 1) I see your input regarding the spirit of both Saga and Shun is the same as your POV. 2) You don't agree that my counter statement regarding that the spirit have the similar possession symtom but not the same spirit which I have already provided facts from the manga(which I will provid again for a mediator's examination).
 * Show me again where it was stated in the manga that the spirits aren't the same ?Folken de Fanel 10:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

So this is the break down, and why mediation is needed since we can't come to a common ground.

However we can both agreed on 2 facts I believe. Saga was possessed by "a spirit". Shun was possessed by "Hades' spirit".

I believe there's a way to resolve this in civilize way without creating resentment toward other members and for the greater good of Saint Seiya page on Wikipedia.Yajaec 16:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

Goodness, I guess you just not seeing it, here is another solid piece of evidence that is the ultimate proof to show the spirit that possessed Saga is not Hades' spirit.

The SEAL OF ATHENA.

Dokho spend over 200+ years watching the "tower" that Athena sealed Hades' 108 armies in. At the same time Saga his evil self been planning to take over the Sanctury in the duration of most recent 13 years. During the Hades chapter, Pandora revealed to Ikki that Hypnos and Thanatos told her that Hades will be born as her brother in spirit but will not come to the world till the Seal of Athena on the tower is broken and told her to protect Hades' spirit until that day comes. Manga stated, Hades' spirit has been under Pandora's protection during all that time till the Seal on the tower is broken. Even Poseidon wasn't able to possess Julian until the seal of Athena is broken by Kannon.

This is not of my own made up fact, it is solid fact straight from the manga.

Fact: during Seiya's fight with Saga in Sanctuary, Saga himself said how he can over come Zeus, Poseidon AND Hades to take over the world and no longer need to pretend using Athena's name to do so. Over comes HADES too!!!

Fact: The "Seal of Athena" on the tower that sealed Hades' 108 spectors was not broken till AFTER Poseidon's event.

Fact: Saga's evil spirit has been active for the duration of 13 years way before the seal on the tower is broken.

Fact: Hypnos and Thanatos said it themselves, ask Pandora to protect Hades' spirit till the time of Athena's Seal is broken then Hades will come to this world and the final battle will begin.

With these solid evidences, you can no longer said that I provid no facts that shows proof the spirit that possessed Saga is NOT Hades' spirit. I really don't understand why you don't agree to these solid facts? I'm not argueing with you because I don't like you, I only want to provide the most correct info from the story itself because I've seen a lot of websites out there using Wiki's info as source, therefore it's important not to mislead people with info that is not correct and I'm not saying that you provide only false info, people makes mistakes, if some how you over look something in manga, it's cool, we'll help each other fix it. My fight is not with you, there's no agenda or enemy here only passionate Saint Seiya followers.Yajaec 08:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Please, you've said it yourself. Hades' soul wasn't imprisonned in the sealed tower. It was "born" on Earth 13 years before the beginning of the actual story. Which matches with Saga's symptoms.
 * Hades himself wasn't sealed anywhere after his birth, and was completely free to roam the world and to act as he sees fit. There's absolutely nothing preventing him to possess Saga.
 * What are your saying ????? HAVE YOU READ THE MANGA ONCE IN YOUR LIFE ??? No, of course you haven't. What's this ? Hades was never sealed in the tower, he was "born" from Pandora's mother, in her castle in Germany 13 years ago, how could he be sealed in the tower in China ???? Pandora was already taking Hades' soul with her throughout the world when she, Ikki and shun were just kids.
 * Please think, how could be be sealed anywhere, since he was released into the world 1" years ago ? How could he be affected by the seal on the chinese tower, since he was already born and completely free, in Germany, 13 years before the seal broke ???


 * Next time you'll add misinformation, your edits will be taken as vandalism.


 * And worse, you continue with your stupid claims about your so-called Ares...But seriously, can't you read ?
 * I repeat: Ares was never mentioned in Saint Seiya and there's absolutely nothing, nothing, NOTHING, even hinting at a supposed possession by Ares.
 * This stupid claim is based on various mistranslations and misunderstandings from the anime that I have already clarified !!


 * "Obviously you have been confused by the name the anime script writers gave to Pope Saga : Arles.


 * They gave the evil pope this name, when Kurumada hadn't yet thought about the story of Saga and Shion. This "Arles" name was an early decision of the script writers, as when they introduced the Crystal Saint, which was found to be highly contradictory with the latter scenario written by Kurumada in his manga.


 * To recify the incoherence, Takao Koyama, the main script writer of the anime, wrote a side story in one of the Jump Gold databook : it told the story of Saga, and how he first killed, Arles, Shion's young brother, and assumed his identity. When Shion died, he hadn't named a successor, and then Arles was chosen as the natural sucessor of Shion. But it was in fact Saga, assuming Arles identity. And that's why the Pope was named Arles in the anime.


 * But in the manga, this name (which could be confused with the name of the greek god of war) never appear. The pope is always thought to be Shion, then Saga.".


 * Last time I tell you this. After, you'll get proper vandalism warnings. Folken de Fanel 23:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply:

Dude, calm down, no need to get all worked up like that. First of all, I stated everything straight from manga, please don't use harsh accusation tone toward me as I am talking to you nicely. Manga never clearly stated that Hades' spirit was roaming freely after birth, that's your POV, it is not NPOV. Please provide citation in manga clearly stated "Hades' spirit roamed freely" while Hypnose and Thanatos clearly in managa told Pandora to protect Hades' spirit till the seal is broken on the tower when Hades' army is released.

Second, the managa never clearly stated the tower is exactly in CHINA, it only stated that Dohko was watching/monitor it from however many hundreds or thounsands miles away while sitting in front of the water fall. You said and I quote "how could he be sealed in the tower in China ???? " that is your POV not a clear stated fact in manga and again it's your POV of explaination not a NPOV. Please provide and cite fact that in managa that it clearly stated the tower is in China.

Thirdly, please don't call me stupid or accuse me that I never read manga. It is RUDE and uncalled for as I never called you stupid, and please try not to take this whole thing personally. I only want the article to be as close to true hard fact and I'm sure you do, I can tell you have this big flame of passion while debating your position but please remain calm and don't call people stupid or accuse them for never read the managa just because they don't agree with you.

And please re-read what I posted on the article regarding Ares yesterday, I think you mis-read how I write it. I write it as a neutrual statment. I only stated that "It is widely debated that the spirit could be Ares..." I never said it "IS" Ares in the article. This statment is true, it IS widely debated as I've seen it being posted again and again on the talk area for many people talked about it. So before you call it a "stupid claim" read clearly as it claimed nothing.

As for what you said about Takao Koyama regarding Ares' name. I'm not dismissing it yet but please provide a cite or link on the Saga page to an article that stated the situation of how the name Ares or Arles came to be to have a hard fact source. As I never argue with you regarding to what Mr. Takao Koyama said but I'm sure people and other users here would appreciated if you can provide this link/citation.

And last, please keep in mind of Wiki's policy regarding having good faith in people, we may stand on a different ground on this issue but it's no excuse to call people Stupid. If you could calm down and discuss this nicely the other users and I would appreciate it. Thank you.Yajaec 17:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm perfectly calm, but obviously you have difficulties reading me.


 * First, the manga clearly stated that Hades' spirit was roaming freely after birth: it has never been stated that Hades was under any kind of seal or restriction. He was born' again, on Earth (and no specter could be born on Earth before being freed from the tower, or from "Pandora's box"), 13 years before the beginning of the story. Period. He wasn't under any kind of restrinction, Pandora even took him to Japan.


 * No, manga never clearly stated that "Hades' spirit was roaming freely after birth". It only stated that the spirit was born as Pandora's brother and is under the protection of Pandora till the Seal of Athena on the tower is broken. Until you can cite from manga where it says Hades' spirit is roaming freely after birth, you can not claim that. Manga showed that only the spirit was born, Hades does not have a physcial body at the time which we see that when Pandora met childhood Ikki that Hades was just a comsic thing wrap in a blanket and Shun was to be chosen as the physical body of Hades by given the "Yours Ever" necklace.Yajaec 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes manga clearly stated that Hades could roam the world freely. I repeat, Hades was born on Earth 13 before the beginning of the story, that is, 13 years before the tower broke, and moreover, he was 8000 kms away from the tower.
 * So he wasn't subjected to the seal on the tower. Overwise he couldn't have ressurected.


 * It's said in the manga, in the tower are locked the souls of the 108 Specters (and only the Specters, NOT Hades) and they can't escape until the seal is broken.


 * If was Hades' soul was "born" on Earth 13 years prior to the breaking of the seal, it means he was free and not subjected to the seal of the tower, because the tower would only break in 13 years.


 * So I can claim that, and that's what I'm doing right know : by stating Hades was already ressurected 13 years before the breaking of the tower, the manga cleraly states that Hades could roam the world freely. Perdiod.


 * On the over hand, you still have to povide cictations that "Hades couldn't roam the world freely". I'm waiting.


 * Your still holding to your deformation of Pandora's tak. I repeat once more : Pandora was to take care of hades until his army was free. That's all. It not even implied anywhere that Hades couldn't roam the world freely. We can see Pandora and Hades in Japan, that means he is not subjected to any restriction, that's all. Folken de Fanel


 * No, your claim that Hades roam freely "based" on the fact that his spirit was born 13 years ago that is your own speculation and your POV drawn from that fact. Manga never said or clearly show any event that during that 13 years of time while under Pandora's protection and shown that Hades' spirit go around any where by itself. There's no solid base to that claim therefore it violates the NPOV rule. I merely stated fact that Pandora was told to protect and look after Hades' spirit and Hypnos & Thanatos also said that Hades will not start the final battle till the seal is broken which complies to the NPOV rules and I never said anything about proving that Hades' spirit can not roam freely that would be out of the NPOV perimeter.Yajaec 16:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hypnos and Thanatos only said to Pandora that she was to take care of Hades until the 108 specters could be freed again. That's all.


 * So I'm asking you again, please provide citation in the manga clearly stating that "Hades' spirit could not roam freely". Unless you have any proof, this remains POV.


 * I never said I would prove that, same with "Hades' spirit can roam freely" of what you said above is also POV till you can cit that from manga.Yajaec 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

You said you had proofs of that. I still wait for them. WXhat I said above is not POV, it's the absolute truth. however what you said was utter POV and deformation and interpretation.


 * Second, in volume 19, Dohko is sitting in Rozan, China, and states that the tower is 1000 kms away from Rozan (or Lushan, as it is named in chinese). However, the design of the actual tower is inspired by the Bayon temple, in Angkor, Cambodia. There's about 2000 kms between the Lushan area and Cambodia, so the tower could be anywhere between Lushan and Angkor (either in south-eastern China, Thailand, Laos or Vietnam). Also, it is worth noting that either Lushan or Angkor are more than 8000 kms away from Germany.


 * I never disagree the range which Dohko can view the tower, I only stated that it's unclear to exact location weather it's in China or somewhere else.Yajaec 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But in any case in far away from Germany.


 * Third, I've never said you were stupid, but your theories are. And obviously you don't know, or have forgotten, many facts from the manga.


 * It's still rude, never the less and you also accused me for never read the manga. If I never read manga, how would I know about all the events?!Yajaec 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * But who said you know about these events ? You don't even understand them ! Folken de Fanel
 * Again that is your POV, you have no right to said that I don't understand these events. If you nip pick everything I said then I can also said the same to you (which I won't because it's not what Wiki is about), that you have no prove of any solid cridential as a Saint Seiya info source. But that's not the point, the point was that you were "rude" calling people's input stupid.Yajaec 16:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Fourth, about Ares, it has been debate, and it has been utterly debunked. This claim was based on minstranslations and misunderstanding.
 * Ares isn't mentionned anywhere in the manga, the character technically doesn't exist, the theory comes from nowhere. therefore, it is POV and original research, so it won't be on Wikipedia.
 * So as usual, please provide citation in the manga clearly stating that "Ares was involved in Saga's possession".
 * Beside, you didn't say "it has been debated that" but "it's Ares, period".


 * Yes I did leave the article as "It is often debated what Saga's evil side truly is: was it an evil spirit (Ares god of war and chaos' spirit) [ 1 ] that eventually gained control over his body, or was it truly Saga's own lust for power?" [|my last edit], I never put "it's Ares, period". You just revert the whole article without reading it clearly.Yajaec 22:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, once again you're manipulating the truth.
 * The "it is debated" is about whether "bad Saga" was a manifestation of Saga's own evil hidden nature, or if he was possessed by an external entity. You just said, if Saga was possessed, that it was by Ares and no one else.Folken de Fanel 10:19, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * You are once again drawing conclusion without finish read the sentances. The whole statement draw no conclusion, it stated that it is debated weather it was an evil spirit (Ares god of war...) OR Saga's own lust for power? It draws no conclusion which is open for reader to judge for themselves. The Ares spirit subject "IS" debated which is a fact shown at the talk pages here and there. Again no conclusion is drawn, so before you start drawing your own conclusion and accussing me manipulation the truth, finish reading.Yajaec 16:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Fifth, it is in Jump Gold Selection - Anime Special 2, (19th november 1988), p. 40 to 46.
 * There's a translation of the Side Story here :
 * Folken de Fanel 01:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Fact: Aphrodite has the name of a Goddes yet he's not possesseed by a God, nor he's a woman.

Fact: Also Thor(God Warrior), Aiolos(Gold Saint) and Krishna(Marine General) have names of Gods but aren't possessed.


 * Deduction: Being named after a God means nothing.

Fact: Ares is not named anywhere in the original manga.


 * Deduction: Hardly a God doing anything affecting the story is going to be unsaid in ALL the official sources(manga, encyclopedia, etc).

Fact: Mu states at the end of the 12 Temple Chapter that everyones has good and evil inside them, but in Saga's case they were extreme, so that when the Good part prevaled he was as good as a God, when the evil part prevaled he was evil as a Demon.

Fact: Kanon states Saga had a good part and a evil part while himself has only the evil part.

Fact: Kanon isn't possessed by any God.
 * Deduction: Saga soffers of Dissociative identity disorder.

Fact: Saga resisted to the evil personality a lot better than everyelse possessed by a God(Julian, Shun, even Eris's host though the Movies are Out of Continuity). All the other showed less than 1/100 of his resistance. Saga's good personality interefered with the actions of the Evil one way more times and with more effect than everybody else.

Fact: Saga while "evil" talked about himself as "Saga". The other possessed by Gods, while controlled by the Gods talk about themselves as the Gods they are possessed.

Fact: And Saga talked to his other personality, while nobody possessed by a God ever did it.


 * Deduction: Saga by himself resisted TOO MUCH for being possessed by a God. The best ever showed in the other cases was Shun blocking his own body movements for some seconds. He needed Athena's blood to get rid of Hades' soul.

Fact: Humans possessed by Gods get the Cosmo and the strenght of the God. Saga reteined his own Cosmo, and Ikki stated Kanon being more or less as strong as Saga.


 * Deduction: If Saga is as strong as Kanon and Kanon isn't possessed by a God, then or Kanon is strong as a God(not probable), or the God possessing Saga is very weak(also not probable) or Saga isn't possessed by a God.

Fact: Hades is stated possessing the body of the purest human on the planet everytime he resurrects. Shun, not Saga.


 * Deduction: It's not probable Hades would posses anybody else than the purest human. And if Hades resurrection was before Saga killed Sion, then Shun was purer than Saga, if after then Saga's evilness was not caused by any God.

Additional Fact: Saga is stated suffering of a frammented personality by Chronos. But Episode G's canonity is disputed\unknown, so this Fact may be uncounted. I listed it for completeness' sake. Fact: Translations of the Hypermyth state Saga being possessed. Fact: There are different translation of the Hypermyth. That is not stated in all.
 * Deduction: Hypermith translations found on the web are not reliable enough to be used in a discussion as Facts.
 * Final Deduction: Saga was a mad man with 2 personalities, not possessed by any god. The "ghost" it was seen leaving his body in the manga was probably his evil personality that took form. This is a deduction and can be wrong.

Sirtao 17:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * But this is assumption, hypothesis, but not fact... We do see a spirit escaping Saga's body after he was submitted to the light of Athena's shield. You can't discard it, and above all you can't try to "explain" it based on your own assumptions, without proofs.
 * Very true. But, it could be Saga's natural evilness taking form after being exorcized by Athena's Shield. It would explain everything. 151.37.162.109 00:51, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The fact that Saga is never shown anymore with his evil side is an hint that it came from the outside. Can this evil still be "natural" in this way ? Besides, Kanon himself never underwent any kind of transformation when he was either good or evil, and we never saw any spirit escaping his body when he finally redeemed during the Poseidon chapter....Folken de Fanel 13:28, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

This talk section seems to gets too heated, I have a suggestion which shall fall under the NPOV rule. We take out anything in Gemini Saga related section that talks about Ares or Hades's spirit. We CAN, however, mention that in manga a spirit like object left his body as the Athena shield shined on him and in anime his hair color changed from blue to grey as the two different event, we will not, however, put in anything related to neither Ares or Hades, no speculations on his evil side, no maybe, put in nothing without solid event shown in manga or anime. We can only say that he suffered an identity crisis to which the source is not clearly shown in the series (we can put in that Saga said Kannon was the one that lure him to dark side which is stated in the series). We will let the reader to find their own speculation(if they are really interested to find out). This is NPOV and only stating facts from manga and anime and I believe this is a good common ground if we can't come to one. Yajaec 16:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "We take out anything in Gemini Saga related section that talks about Ares": no need to say it because no would would have let you write it. Do you remember that I've debunked this ?


 * "and in anime his hair color changed from blue to grey " : And I thought you had become reasonable....
 * No. The anime doesn't count. Anime color scheme are always different from the manga, and have no relevance.
 * However, we'll mention that Saga's hair changed from blond to jet-black, as did Shun's (in the case of whom it was the characteristics of a possession by Hades).Folken de Fanel 17:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, stop with the arguments, the point of coming to a common ground is not to keep on argue on and on. Ares' theory taken out is already agreed and Hades would have to go too since there's no solid event that shows a direct possession on Saga of this event and we can't agree on it. Taking both out would work with NPOV rule. As for the hair color in anime, YES, we can put it in, anime "IS" part of the Saint Seiya series, you can not say it does not count. It's FACT and put in both different events from both manga and anime of what happened to Saga would be good information and let the reader to see for themselves as to what they think about what happened to Saga. It's fact from both manga and anime. And what are you talking about "Saga's hair changed from blond to jet-black" ? Saga's hair was never blond in manga nor in anime! On Shun's article it is ok to mention Hades since the whole Hades' chapter clearly shows a direct relation to the whole possession scene. But Saga's article does not qualify to have mention in regard to the possession theory since manga does not have a direct scene of event that shows a scene of the possession of Hades' spirit on Saga or such. I believe it's better to separate Shun from Saga since we can't agree on the relation of possession. Saga's page will talk about Saga's own info, Shun's page will talk about Shun's own info this way both article will up hold the NPOV rule and it's up to reader to read both articles and look at the possession events themselves so both articles remains neutural. Can you agree on this?Yajaec 18:02, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I saw you re-editing, you still need to take out the event related to Hades and Shun, it can not stay in, the section's title is about Saga's double personelities only and we did not agree on the possession view, if the readers wants to know about the possessions, they can read Shun's article and look at these 2 events themselves, the article have to stay neutural and no addition facts that may lead readers in any directs regarding the possession. Thanks Yajaec 18:20, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * OK first I've reworded the article, and I took care to respect the NPOV rule: I mentionned everything there was to mention, from either points of view (Possessed/subconscious, etc).


 * Then...Sorry Yajaec, but you're still wrong. On 2 points :
 * 1)No the anime doesn't count in this respect. I assume you've never read what I've explained on the subject, but the anime color schemes are always' modified from the manga, and without the author's advice, because he doesn't take part to the conception of the anime.
 * As I've already said, there are several instances were manga colorations (because there are always a few pages that are colored, either on the cover art or in the manga itself when it is pre-published) were not respected in the anime:
 * Saori really has light brown hair in the manga. Not purple as in the anime.
 * Shun has also brown hair and they made it green in the anime.
 * Camus has ginger hair (yes, disturbing but true). Not blue.
 * Shion is really blond (and it has still been confirmed in the new Next Dimension manga), he has not lime green hair.
 * Hades' hair is really jet-black (confirmed in the original manga and also in the new Next Dimension manga), contrary to the strange reddish/burgundy color they chose for the Meikai OVA (and to prove anime colorations have no relevance at all, we even saw preliminary designs for the Meikai OVA which featured Hades with lime green hair)
 * So you see, there's no relevance at all. The original colors intended by Kurumada were all changed. So really, it's useless to rely on such fallacious arguments to try to explain Saga and Shun's possession were not the same : it's irrelevant. It's POV. It will never prove anything. The manga coloration remains the original (and by the way, Saga is blond in the manga).


 * 2)There are elements showing that Saga could have been possessed. When he is possessed, his hair turn from blond to jet-black. These are facts'. You'll never contradict it.
 * Now we have Shun, who is also possessed. Strangely, the same hair color change happens to him. That's also fact. It is revealed that this hair color change was in reference to Hades' own jet-black hair. Another 'fact.
 * And moreover, Ikki himself notes the similarity of the two transformation (stilll a fact).


 * That you are a supporter of the Ares theory, and that you don't want to hear about the Hades theory, is your own problem and has nothing to do on Wikipedia.
 * You have to accept the facts: there are strange similarities in both Saga's and Shun's case, so IT WILL BE NOTED IN THE ARTICLE. It has absolute relevance.


 * You have to accept that it is a fact that Hades is hinted to be behind Saga's case. That's a fact, even if you don't like it. And if you try to hide these fact, it'll be a NPOV violation.


 * The NPOV rule doesn't mean "I can't write my theory, so you won't write yours". No. I'm merely stating facts from the manga, that the author himself linked together. As you said, I'm not saying that Hades did possess Saga. I'm just mentioning interesting facts in this respect.


 * But if you want to explain me that Saga's and Shun's hair never turned jet black, and that Ikki never noticed the similarities between the 2 transformations, then please provide accurate citations proving it.Folken de Fanel 18:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I just answer your 18:20 comment : sorry but I'm not "adding" facts, as you can see. First what you have to understand is that we don't have to agree about the possession : facts have been undisputably established in the manga, so they are beyond POV dispute. Second, as you say, the article must stay neutral: that means that even if the supporters of the Ares theory won't be pleased, all relevant fact will be included in the article. Try to hide some plot point is POV. Third, you can't deny that Saga and Shun experienced the same physical change. Both of them had their hair turned jet-black. That's a fact. So it will be mentionned.Folken de Fanel 18:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Dude, don't even start again, I'm not arguing over hair color or any thing related to that right now, don't even start to pick an arguement. This article reflect Saint Seiya as whole, so manga and anime info would both need to be included. Unless you going to separats the manga from anime, then that's a whole different story which is not what this article is about. Let the Hades and Shun info stays on their own article in order to remain NPOV. Yes, fact is fact, but you can not simply add to Saga's page based on a hint or speculation that would be POV and not NPOV. At this point, it's not about explaing weather the hair color change is the same or not. You can say, under Saga's article, that his hair changed to black in manga and also have to say his hair turned grey in anime, but you can not put in, under Saga's section regarding to Shun's hair turn black due to Hades' spirit is the "same" physcial change. That is where we can not agree on, therefore you can not put that in, that's "additional" fact that will break the NPOV rule. My talk about coming to common ground is to keep the article neutral AND that we can BOTH agree upon (not only you agree upon). If you are not willing to work this article to the NPOV and the common ground that WE CAN BOTH AGREE UPON then say so, and we'll go into the next phase.Yajaec 19:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, Yajaec, I'm not "starting" anything, you started all this, so don't continue now. We're trying to find a consensus, so don't start nitpicking.


 * The color scheme are not a relevant part of the anime. As you can see, the difference in Saga's hair color (from blond to blue) was nontheless mentionned, but only as it should : as a change made by the anime studio with no relation at all with the storyline.
 * I repeat, you'll never use this in your argument. get over it.


 * Yes, manga and anime need to be differenciated, because there are often small plot points that have been modified.


 * In order to remain NPOV, the info about hades and Shun will remain in the article, because of its absolute relevance egarding Saga's case : same trasformation, same color, Ikki noticed the similarity.
 * Had Shun's possession not implied a change of hair color to jet-black, of course it wouldn't have been mentionned. But it happened that Kurumada intentionaly re-used Saga's transformation process for Shun. So it's perfectly relevent : I 'm not making anything up, all this is in the manga. Since there is a visual similarity linking Saga and Shun, and since the similarity is even noted by Ikki, it's not POV, it's NPOV : it's for the sake of completeness.
 * I've already explained, a NPOV rule violation would be to hide this kind of facts.


 * I repeat once more : that you despise the Hades theory is your problem. The NPOV rule is not "I can't write my theory, you can't write yours". It's mentionning every fact relevant in the subject, in order not to neglect, by its omission, any of the plausible interpretation (even though no clear explanation is expressed by the article : we have to let the reader make his own mind. And in order to do so, the reader has to know every element relevant on the subject). Wikipedia's aim is to be complete, not subjective.
 * It's not a question of you and your little jealousy. It's manga fact so you don't have the right to say anything. There is no POV dispute here. POV dispute is over POV. There can be no POV with facts.


 * Thus the NPOV is not broken by you.


 * The article will stay as it is. The next phase is that you drop the case and that you admit you've lost. There won't be anything else.


 * And if you keep violating the NPOV rule, you'll face the consequences. Folken de Fanel 19:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You clearly don't understand how the consensus works, it's not about you win or I win. Consensus works with what all the editors here agree upon, not how YOU see it should be. I never argue over the hair color issue, my previous comment regarding Saga's blond hair was not meant as an arguement, merely a question of your source. You have taken everything I said as a nipick with what you put in. Don't start your accusation with the "jealousy" remark, it's also demeaning. I never reject that Shun was possess by Hades' but there's no solid fact that links Saga DIRECTLY as the SAME EXACT possession. Ikki only noted the "SIMILARITY" not stating that it IS Hades' spirit that possessed Saga. You, by input that statment into the article would lead the readers into 'certain' conclusion based on how you arraged the facts in the article. You once again break the rule by saying that I don't have the right to say anything. If the article's NPOV status is questionable, ANYONE have the right to say anything. Wikipedia have rule regarding using Fact:A with Fact:B to draw Conclusion Fact: C which is not allowed. Since you will not comply with the common ground I proposessed, I will move this into next phase, I will let the official decide what to do with the article since we can't resolve this even with the admin's help. This is nothing agaist you, but it seem more personal with you of how you talked about that my theory was stupid and your accussation of that I have some sort of jealousy. We will let the Wiki official decide, I'm tired of trying to keep peacefully talking to you when you kept on making accussations. Good riddens! Yajaec 21:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand what is consensus. But keep in mind that, as you put it, it's not how just you, Yajaec, see it should be either.


 * A question of my source ? We have the same, the manga. He has white hair (so he is blond), unless he was colored in another way but I've yet to see this character in color (maybe it exist, I don't know).


 * There's no nitpicking in my remarks, only truth. We both know you have a specific reason for wanting the hair color mention to be hidden.


 * As I said, (and I hope you'll read me this time), I've never said Saga was possessed by Hades (and if you think the contrary, I advise you to read the article again), I've merely pointed out interesting facts in the question of this possession.
 * There's a visual link between Saga's possession and Shun's possession. Both experienced a change of hair color. Both had their hair turning jet-black.
 * The similarity of the transformations is not mere chance. Kurumada could easily have found another process of possession for Shun. He could have chosen another color.
 * Why the same transformation, with the same color change ?
 * Besides, Ikki's line prove this similarity is relevant. The author himself stressed it...


 * As you can see, I'm merely asking a question, and not asserting anything. All this in order to respect the NPOV rule, that is bringing to the reader all the elements relevant to a certain matter, in an objective way, and letting him decide for himself.


 * In your personal decision to hide certain facts to the reader, you're violating the NPOV rule. Who are you to decide what the readers should know ? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, thus it has to be thorough.


 * Again, I arranged no fact in the article. I will ask you to prove what you're saying now, or I will consider it as an official agression.
 * I've merely stated relevant facts, noted by the author himself.


 * No one can contradict what the author said. Not even you.


 * It's not up to you to decide what Ikki meant. He noted a similarity, thus the similarity is noted in the article, that's all.


 * I'm not breaking any rule and I'm not saying you can't say anything. Don't be paranoic. I'm merely saying you can't do anything against the author's own words.


 * Once again, before accusing me of anything, you'll have to prove it.
 * First, I'm not drawing any conclusion (maybe you don't know the meaning of "conclusion").
 * Second, what is not allowed, when we have the author stating "Fact A + fact B", is to erase "fact B". That is POV and that's why you won't do anything on the article again.


 * No you won't do anything else because it has already been decided : it's in the manga, so it is in the article.


 * You are obviously against me, insulting me and lying. You're the only one making accusations here: you're accusing me of stating facts from the manga, because the author himself stated something on which you don't agree. But again, the NPOV rule is not "I can't write this, you can't write that", but "we have to write everything there is on the subject".


 * And you, why are you not willing to work this article to the NPOV and the common ground that WE CAN BOTH AGREE UPON ? Why do you keep wanting to erase facts in order to influence the reader ?


 * There's no peacefull talk when you reproach me to state facts from the manga that contradict your theories. Folken de Fanel 20:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * All that need to be say have already been said, don't even turn it around there are clear evidence that you insulted me and was rude.
 * First don't threaten me and don't try to prevent me to write here. You were never insulted and I was never "rude". Don't even try to perpetuate false accusations because you'll get the blame for it.Folken de Fanel

No more dissussion with you since you won't yell to work together.
 * If you don't want to discuss with me that's fine, then let me alone and stop harassing me and making false accusation because you're frustated your POV was supressed from the article.Folken de Fanel

Fact is fact yes, but now how you put it in nor YOU decide where to put it in.
 * I don't decide anything (neither do you). I'm merely stating perfectly relevant facts.
 * So according to you, Saga's possession has nothing to do with Saga's possession section ?Folken de Fanel

Why do you kept adding additional fact to influence the reader is beyond me.
 * Why do you kept deleting fact to influence the reader is beyond me. There are facts from the manga, identical visual clues and even explicit lines from a character making the link. There's no reason to hide it.

Peace talk is needed regardless of what you think to help with the resolution of the issue
 * And I assume make false accusation is your way of "peace-talking" ?

but you seem to have your own resolution so I will let the offical decide this, enough said. Yajaec 21:36, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The article is as it is, it has reached perfect NPOV and it will stay like that. Even if you have your "own resolution". The official won't decide anything. They are only here to help contributors to reach a compromise. If they don't know anything about the article they can't make any decision regarding it's content. Unless they know Saint Seiya. But unfortunately there are even too few contributors knowing StS, let alone admins. They'll only see you're unwilling to reach a consensus, because you're still trying to impose your POV. Folken de Fanel 00:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Gemini Saga's evil spirit. Is it Hades' or no?
This is a dispute about the spirit that possessed Saga in the Santuary Chapter.17:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Statements by editors previously involved in dispute


 * User: Folken de Fanel
 * 1) the same hair color change occurs when both Saga and Shun are possessed 2) It has been explained that the change happened because Hades has jet-black hairs 3) Ikki noted the similarities between the 2 transformations. Folken de Fanel 10:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Hades' soul wasn't imprisonned in the sealed tower. It was "born" on Earth 13 years before the beginning of the actual story. Which matches with Saga's symptoms.
 * Hades himself wasn't sealed anywhere after his birth, and was completely free to roam the world and to act as he sees fit. There's absolutely nothing preventing him to possess Saga.Folken de Fanel 23:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * User: Yajaec


 * Fact: during Seiya's fight with Saga in Sanctuary, Saga himself said how he can over come Zeus, Poseidon AND Hades to take over the world and no longer need to pretend using Athena's name to do so. Over comes HADES too!!!


 * Fact: The "Seal of Athena" on the tower that sealed Hades' 108 spectors was not broken till AFTER Poseidon's event.


 * Fact: Saga's evil spirit has been active for the duration of 13 years way before the seal on the tower is broken.


 * Fact: Hypnos and Thanatos said it themselves, ask Pandora to protect Hades' spirit till the time of Athena's Seal is broken then Hades will come to this world and the final battle will begin. Yajaec 08:44, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Please also see section number 29, 30, 31 above this post.

Comments

All users are welcome to comment regarding this issue. State first: Agree, Disagree or Other please also provide some writing of NPOV including verifiable informations. Thank you.17:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree completely with Folken de Fanel, that is, me. Because (answering to Yajaec's arguments):
 * Saga managed to retain control over his body, thus the spirit inside him could not entirely manifest and may have forgotten parts of his identity. Or if it's Hades, he just wants to remain unknown even at the end.


 * Fact: it has been stated in manga volume 27 that Hades wasn't sealed in the tower with the 108 specters, he was "born" on Earth 13 years before the beginning of the story, 13 years before the tower broke and the specters were freed. Hades's soul was thus completely free.


 * Fact: Hypnos and Thanatos ask Pandora to take care of Hades while his army was still sealed in the tower. But Hades himself was resurrected on Earth 13 years ago, in Pandor'as Castle, in Germany. Thus he was never sealed in the tower.

Conclusion N°1 : Yajaec has never read manga volume 27.

Conclusion N°2: Yajaec is continually denying the truth and trying to ignore what I'm saying to him, because he is still keeping the stupid hope that by talking to someone other than me, he'll find someone saying he's right. But this'll never be the case, because I have already proved Yajaec was wrong, and the matter was already settled long ago. Folken de Fanel 01:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The jewels on the 12 Gold Saint Cloth
There are no actual confirmation to this info that I can find but I remember a couple years ago while searching through all the Saint Seiya websites, one of the website, talked about the jewels that were on each of the Gold Cloth (I can't find the site any more). It was very interesting and seem like, at the time the info was obtained from certain Saint Seiya magazine in Japanese that talked about this (too long ago, could not find that source nor confirm it).

I remember it talked about the color of each cloth's jewels and what it means. Some of the jewels have same colors, red, blue, green...etc. and each has a meaning in their position as a Gold Saint in the Sanctuary even the ones without jewels also had a meaning. Something like Athena's guardian, Athena's protector or something like that (I don't remember the detail).

Anyway, I'm asking if anyone or everyone that have extensive collections of the Saint Seiya reading materials, like magazine and special published stuff and try and see if there are information related to this subject.

I, myself gets pretty curious and looks for little things like these, maybe the author/artist had intended to put it there for a reason, or maybe not, but the fact that I did read partial info on this makes me more curious if there's any truth to this, even partial or none at all.


 * Aries had green jewel or bluish green jewel.
 * Taurus none (or none obvious, though the black area on helmet could be black onyx?)
 * Gemini none (or none obvious, though the redish part on the helmet could be...?)
 * Cancer had red jewel (not sure about the blue part)
 * Leo had green jewel or bluish green jewel
 * Virgo had ruby red jewel.
 * Libra none (or none obvious)
 * Scorpio had red jewel
 * Sagittarius had red jewel in some version
 * Capricorn none (or none obvious)
 * Aquarius had green jewel or bluish green jewel
 * Pisces had blue jewel

Just an interesting research see if anyone ever come across similar info regarding the jewels.(Note: I came across this info a couple years ago, 5-7 years ago way before Episolde G was ever come to form for which I am well aware of Episolde G added some orbs and jewels on the Gold Cloths but this is not related to that)Yajaec 17:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * This is just a change in the anime versions of the Gold Cloth, in order to make them more "visual", more "colorfull". In other words more beautifull. It's a purely visual change.


 * There was this fan theory some years ago that each gem color corresponded to a a role in the Sanctuary, but this as been debunked long ago. There's no consistence in the gems "pattern" (because there's no pattern at all, it's purely arbitrary). The various Gold Saints who share the same gem color do not have the same role. And no, there has never been any official confirmation, this was just a fan theory. Folken de Fanel 18:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

More about Saga spirit
I copy and pasted what you, Folken de Fanel, wrote earlier here to add my reply following this. Yajaec 23:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If the anime script writers had wanted to use the name of the greek god of war, they would have done so. But it's not the case. The name of the greek god of war in japanese is アレス not アーレス. So unless we have comment from the authors, it would be OR to assume anything. Whatever option we choose for the article, it will reflect this difference in the spelling.


 * As for the Ares theory I don't care about it and it's not the subject here. We've said all there was to say. I won't change my mind about it, it was only a totally unsupported theory like thousand others (like the Gold Saints gems, for example) and the Outside Story debunked it long ago. It was based on a misunderstanding : the anime script writers gave to the Pope a name sounding a bit like Ares, and then with the help of bad translations in certain countries the character was linked to the god of war. This is how this theory started, and I've explained how it ended. So please, no allusion to this anymore.


 * For the other thing, if you read the article you'll see that there's no theory. I have merely presented facts that are in the manga. You may dislike them because, as you said, you are a strong believer of the Ares theory and you don't want to admit the truth if it doesn't correspond to what you think. I understand your feeling, but we have NPOV rules on Wikipedia.


 * As I've explained to you, it's no use to try to hide the truth : we have visual clues (same transformation, same color change), we have statement from a character (and yes, we have confirmation Ikki really said it. The manga is this confirmation). It will remain in the article and it won't be a note. This is fact. This is not a theory or a POV. It's a constatation. If the author himself wanted to direct his readers into thinking there was a link with Hades, there's nothing we can do.


 * The article is already neutral as it does formulates any theory : it only mentions relevant fact.


 * I still wait for you to explain me how Saga's transformation would not be relevant to Saga's transformation. We're talking about a visual similarity of his possession and Shun's possession. We're talking about a character saying that when Shun is being possessed by Hades, the same thing happened to Saga. I can't see why it would have nothing to do with "saga's double personnality". Folken de Fanel 22:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * What you said about アレス not アーレス, my search on Japanese Wiki already showed that it goes to the same page アレス.
 * It's a personal choice of the editors to make the redirection. They can do whatever they want. But it won't prove anything. Folken de Fanel 01:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * the use of "ー" is questionable as to each Japanese personal perferrances.
 * I can't understand what you mean here. There are rules of transcribtion, and I don't thing japanese katakana is something random. Folken de Fanel 01:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * What I meant was that each writer writes on their own level of understanding the romanji translation, of course it's not random, but weather they choose to add extra phonic sounding based on their own understanding of how long the "A" should sound is different. Just because they added the extra "ー" it still does not mean that the official english translation is Arles or Aaresu which are both translated direct from individual katakana words.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The published card have the english Ares on it, and the company is a Japanese company they even stated authors name on the card. (Don't get me wrong, it is not about the spirit, it's about the name they used IS Ares, weather if it's related to the god of war, it's not clearly stated, therefore there's no offical claim on that).
 * No the name is not Ares. It's Aaresu, which can have various translations (and Ares is only one possibility among others). I don't concider the "goodies romanisation" as official. I've already said it, the japanese don't know the romaji correctly and often mess things up, and I've cited the example of an artbook in which was written "Argor", "Santol Babel", "Rizard Misty", etc. Besides, these cards have "Aioros", "aioria" etc written on them so we can't take them into account.
 * I've modified the article only in the light of the translation choises of the american licensor. Folken de Fanel


 * What you said about "Aioros" and "Argor" can't really be compared since there is an official published Saint Seiya encyclopedia which stated their official english name. And like we talked about, the Saint Seiya writer(s)/author(s) usually uses mythology character names that already existed. In the Pope's case, it certainly would explain that アーレス would be Ares(only in name, again, this is not talking about the spirit). Since there's no characters in mythology history named Arles or Aaresu. This is based on how they named 90 some percent of the Saint Seiya characters and the rest is just Japanese name only.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Ares=Official Translation of アーレス(*points Saga's Myth).
 * Already said it, the "goodies romanisation" is not to be taken into account. Folken de Fanel

The fact it's the name of a God means nothing because: 1. Ares was a Silver Saint, younger brother of Sion and 2. Other character share the name with a God but they aren't God(ask Afrodite, Krishna or Thor)Sirtao 00:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your input but we weren't talking about weather it was the god himself on this page (that wasn't the main objective on this page), we are talking about the used of the actual name. And do you have a citation source of "Ares was a silver saint?"Yajaec 15:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Ares is a silver saint, younger brother of Shion. Period. If you have still not understood this, it's useless to tell you anymore. Folken de Fanel


 * Folken, please be nice, I get that in anime Ares was a younger brother of Shion, as many people did not know much about the Ares character, it would be good to provide info regarding that he WAS as silver saint (which many might raise the question of how a silver saint was appointed to be next in line of pope), that's all I'm asking is for a referances or cited source, no need to be mean and say "Ares is a silver saint, younger brother of Shion. Period. If you have still not understood this, it's useless to tell you anymore."Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As for the Ares god of war theory, please leave my previously posting regarding the Gold Saint Jewels out of this, it's got nothing to do with it. I know how you feel about the theory clearly and it was never my intention at all to convince nor proof to you about this theory. All I stated was the FACT that this theory was widely debated with fans since the late 80's, regardless weather it was misunderstanding or not, it's a fact that can't be denied that it was a widely debated theory.


 * A debate on a void and debunked theory. A debate on an unstated theory is still in the theorical domain, thus it pertains to original research. The debate itself is non-notable, as it wasn't started on a valid basis. Folken de Fanel


 * Jewel issue was not part of this discussion, Ares subject does have reasonable issues to raise doubt (again, not talking about the spirit)the name of アーレス's translation was not officially provided, so what you said about debunked theory does not apply to this. Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As for what you said about bad translation to other countries that this is how it started, you have no solid proof of that is what happened in the late 80's and I'm not certain if you are wrong or right, as what you said can not be traced unless you were actually there in the late 80's watching each countries translating the anime.
 * Again, I read the article, I never said the fact you wrote was a theory, please don't misunderstand. Even though I may look upon the Ares theory more than Hades theory but I never offically claim that as true for neither was made offically clear. What I said before about moving those facts away from the conclusion of the "double personality article" was not because I hate the Hades theory nor because I'm a super hard core fan of the Ares theory, it's only because the placing of these fact in the end of that section would direct the reader into the Hades theory which would break the NPOV rule.


 * No. They are facts relevant to the topic. If they redirect the reader to the Hades theory, then go and complain to Kurumada himself because it was his own thought, then. He was the one who chose to draw a paralel, not me, we have to respect his words.


 * Yes, fact, but not directly relevant to the duel personlity, only in physical traits, personality is mental/psychological or even spirit relm issues. Kurumada may add in the similarities in physcial traits of changes but he did not draw comparesome in the mental/psychological traits, you, by putting that fact in the duel personality would be adding your POV based on the physical traits you see and that breaks the NPOV rule. Yes we all respect Kurumada's words, but it does not give us the right to draw conclusion on what he did not officially stated and that would be putting words in his mouth. Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If the end of the article talked about how the Pope Ares name was the same as war of god Ares, I, myself would moved it, if fact like that need to be mentioned, we can put it under Note or other area.


 * Again, I have never had the intention to hide any facts for that would break my own rule as a Saint Seiya follower. You said "we have visual clues..." and what Ikki said (which Ikki never actually finish and was followed by Hades' reply of, yes, I have completely take over Shun's body) those were only "clues" and how each one of us interporate that is our own POV, I can agree that it does seem like what Ikki said could be...which I won't put words into Ikki's mouth, of what you think he would finish saying, but he never finish what he said so no official claim can come from that. And what you said about if the author wants to direct reader into that link...YOU wrote that based on your speculation from reading manga, the author never officially stated any where that he intended to direct readers into that link so you can not claim that, certainly is outside of Wiki's NPOV.


 * Again you don't understand. We have facts from the manga. Who wrote the manga ? Not you, not me, Kurumada did. We have Kurumada's own word on it. Not to respect it is OR. He himself drew a parallel, whether or not he has actually intended for Saga to be possessed by Hades is unknown, however he himself created the ambiguity, or the doubt, by applying the same transformation process to Shun, the same color change to jet black, and by making Ikki himself notice the similarity. We can't go and say "oh no these elements might be proofs of a theory that I don't like, so let's not talk about it at all". This is OR: by your preference you want to delete a mention that, only because of your own POV, you claim it's POV. You're yourself inventing the POV, here.


 * Yes, he might have created a slight possible ambiguility, but he wrote where the evil Saga said himself that he's preventing or protecting the take over from Zeus, Poseidon AND Hades himself. How come you didn't stress on that in the article?!!! And if you want to stress on the physical changes how come you don't talk about the personality comparesomes? Evil Saga was more crue and violants and Hades Shun was calm and serene!!! If you want to draw the comparesome of one aspect, then you must do it completely.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * And while we can't favour any theory or its opposite, what we have to do is to reflect also the ambiguity that is a part of the manga. And whether or not you like the Hades theory, you're not allowed to reject manga facts. Hiding a specific part of the manga, whatever might be its implications, in one sense or another, is OR. Folken de Fanel


 * Yes, please DO reflect all the ambiguility and controdictions. Whether or not you like either the Hades and Ares theory, if you compares some manga facts then you must compares all facts from manga including the personalities of both Saga and Shun when they are being possessed. If you don't, then that is also hiding a specific part of manga, whatever might be its implications, in one sense or another, is your POV based on your OR from some facts. Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The article is not completely neutural if there are shady/questional areas and that's where concensus comes in, you and I maybe see things differently, there's no aboslute right or wrong but if there's questionable area, then it's not neutural.
 * What you fail to understand that the questionable area comes from the manga itself. I mean, in the sense that the manga might be pointing at something and left the question unanswered, not in the sense that Saga's and Shun's possessions similarity could be disputed : that's hard fact from Kurumada himslef, it's absolutely undisputable and it will remain in the article.


 * Our job is is to "mimic" the manga, to show what it showed. By hiding something that the manga showed, your violating the NPOV rule, by adding your personal interpretation on manga facts. That you associate these facts with a theory is already a POV.Folken de Fanel


 * But please mimic completely, and show COMPLETELY of what it has shown. By not talking about what evil Saga said about protect the world from even Hades AND stated the personality of both Saga and Shun when possessed, you violated the NPOV rule by only adding some manga facts. That you associates only some of these facts to the duel personality section if already hidding some of the manga facts.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not here to expalin to you about the transformation that's not the point. And what you said about visual similarity, again, that's your own POV in comparing Saga to Shun, other people may see the two differently in their own way which is their POV.
 * No. Its not a POV, it is the absolute truth, undisputable. There are visual clues : same transformation process, same color change. No one is allowed to see it otherwise, because it's the manga by Masami Kurumada. It's his personal vision. Not the vision on anyone. He imposed us various codes, and we have no choice but to respect it. It's not us, but Masmai Kurumada who has decided to show these visual clues, thus we can't dispute his vision of his work.
 * That these element do not show a similarity between Saga and Shun is also your POV. Who said Kurumada hasn't planned Hades to be the cause of Saga's possession ? Who said these elements didn't have any link ?
 * On the other hand, there is a similarity that is fact and no one can go against it. Folken de Fanel


 * It's no longer absolute truth when you arranged it in your POV way. Yes, color changes which I never disagree on, but how you read those "codes" and they way you translated is a questionable POV. And I never opposed of what the author provided but only opposing in how you, in your POV way of arranging it on the article. I never said that those element did not show a similarity, don't put words in my mouth. And who said Kurumada did planned Hades to be the cause of Saga's case? Who said these elements have clear and OFFICIAL link? The similarity IS fact and no one is against it but only against how one may arrarnges them on the article based on one's own POV.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * All I'm saying that, clean cut, is that there's no clear and official DIRECT link in Shun's possession by Hades and Saga's double personality which if put together


 * Read the article and you'll see there no link to this theory either. Only relevant facts, wanted by Kurumada himself, were stated.


 * I wrote the previous statments before you rewrited the article, it wasn't reflecting it before, it's better now but if you want to speak of relevant facts of what Kurumada himself wrote, then you must also add in the personality of both Saga and Shun when possessed.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As I've said, it's only your own POV which triggers this dispute. Its you who decided to see these facts are redirecting to a theory which you don't accept. Others might not see the same. Everyone can and must have his own views on something, and the article is only offering the posibility to the readers to develop their own views. Our aim as Wikipedians is to present EVERY facts and to let the reader decide for himself. The article is written in a way that it perfectly allows this. And this is all that is asked to us.


 * Actually the questionable neutral states of the article triggers the dispute. Why can't you stop accusing me and be nice and work with me?!?! My POV?!?!! The fact that there are questionable areas is un-disputable. Again, the article is only offering the posibility that was wroted in by POV to direct the readers into developing point of view down the posibility that was given. Which it DID NOT present EVERY facts and let the readers decide for themselves. The article was not even close to perfect and did not give full range of facts.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * By wanting to delete these facts, you're preventing the readers to find their own answer to the question that Kurumada himself has asked. Nobody knows the definite answer, but the debate exists, because it was created by Kurumada himself, who, by his graphical and storywise decisions, opened the debate.


 * Don't put words in my mouth, I said to move it from the duel personality section and added to Notable fact areas. And by not giving all FACTS, you are preventing the readers to find their own answers. Yes, Kurumada kept it open for debate, but as editors on Wiki, we must provide complete fact and not only certain facts and arraged them on question in a questionable position of neutrality.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * But the answer is not ours to impose. The reader have to find their own answer. But in order for them to be able to answer, we have to let them hear the question first.


 * Yes, let them hear all the questions, not only some of the questions.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * you would have the Hades theory, therefore that section of article is no longer neutural. I really hope you can see that.


 * I can see that the section is perfectly neutral and your tentative to delete relevant info is POV.Folken de Fanel


 * Based on your POV you see that it's neutral, that is your POV, the fact that I raised some questionable issues with the article does not mean I'm here to delete relevant info, which I did not tell you to delete anything only to put it in proper area to prevent unbiase influence on the duel personality section.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Again I will honestly say if the article section concluded with fact statement that Pope Ares' name is like Ares' god of war which both have violance nature, I, myself would take it out of that section because Saga's double personality put together with Pope Ares/Ares god of war's similar nature then you would have the Ares theory, therefore that section of article is no longer neutural too.


 * In conclusion, please understand, even though personally I lean more toward Ares' theory (I'm not fanatic about it), more than you do,(because I lived through the 80's when the issues was widely debated)


 * Please do not offense me anymore with this argument. I've also lived through the 80s but because I knew the original manga, and what was the actual origin of this "Ares" name, I've just never paid attention to what was no more than another false fan theory. Folken de Fanel


 * Offend you? This discussion was never about you nor did this discussion personally attacks you. You have not provided the official cited source of Arles translation from Saint Seiya official, there's only the Japanese name アーレス . How do you know the origin of the name since no one so far have provide the official source of the english translation? That would be OR without official citing.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * does not mean that I would favor the Hades' theory so much less to the point that I would make the article swing toward Ares' theory. Can you even take a moment and see how those Hades facts you put in the end of the double personality section would bring up the Hades' theory?!?!?!


 * If they bring the hades theory, then it's Kurumada's fault, not mine. It's Kurumada himself who has induced this ambiguity, this doubt, and as Wikipedians, our role is to report it, whatever might be the implications. Hiding facts by fear of a theory, is POV, because it's who who regards these facts as theory oriented, while they are just manga facts.
 * If we go in your way, we should delete every Saint Seiya article, because anything can lead to any theory.
 * Should we delete the mention of Marin and Seika having the same physical characteristics just because it could induce a theory...? Should we delete all mention about Seiya and Saori because it might suggest they love each other ?


 * I never said it was your fault regarding the Hades theory, however, how you write the article that leans toward that theory would be your fault, and I'm not accusing you of intentionallity doing it, all I'm asking it to make it more neutral and prevent any questionable area to surface based on how you input those facts in certain areas. Our role to report it yes, but when other editors come to you and shown you those questionable area then won't you work together to improve them?! Stop this talk about hiding facts, it was not about hiding facts but how one edit it by showing only certain facts in a questional position of that section of article.


 * Again don't point this on me, why do you say such thing as "If we go in your way, we should delete every Saint Seiya article, because anything can lead to any theory." I have only pointed out these questionable area on this perticular article. That's not a talk of solution but an extreemist.
 * And we are not talking about Marin and Seika here that comparesome you draw is nonsense in relation to this, the OFFICIAL fact was declared in the last chapter of Hades that Seika was not Marin. Marin found Seika and it was shown as Marin was one of the person protected Seika from Thanatos' attack. And it's also farfetch by even comparing Seiya and Saori here and there's no official presentation regarding their love interest.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If there's even a questionable shady area, then it is not neutural.
 * If the questionable shady area is induced by the manga itself, it is ABSOLUTE NEUTRALITY.


 * And please, assume good faith in others, no more talk of hidding the fact and stuffs like that. I'm not here to proof you wrong I only want to help the article get to the finest finish so that in the future, no one else would raise these same questions again which we both help paved the way in resolving this sensitive issues that both party can live with.Yajaec 23:35, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You see ? Your aim is to eradicate all questions, while we can't have certainty everywhere, and that there are some dubious or ambiguous points that actually do make part of the story !!


 * Eradicate all questions? All I said was to solve the issues on this subject so that it's make clear and no one would have the same question that which can be solved by our discussion here now. Please don't draw conslusion partially from what I said, that's not very Good Faith like.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * And you, can't you assume good faith on me ? Because you see, here, you are introducing your POV while I'm merely stating facts from the manga. And can't you be honest and assume your aim is to hide things ? Folken de Fanel 01:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I did assume good faith on you, which I have shown time and time again, I kept this discussion going on without personal attack on this page. I have shown patiences after all these long posting and again and again showing you that I only want you to reflect the article to become more neutral whenever there's questionable area. I even hold off from editing the article and let you do all the rewriting. If I wanted to make it all what you said as "my POV" I would just fight you and start an editing war, if I wasn't assuming good faith about you, why in the world would I waste all these time kept long pages of discussions with you on this subject?!?!?!! You stated the fact from manga yes, I did too, I did tell you to hide anything but only to edit the article to clear out the questionable area. You are the one that has been editing that article, how am I hiding things? and why you assume I aim to hide things?!?!!! That's not very "assuming good faith" on your part by saying things like these.


 * Since you rewrote the article recently, it does show more in the neutral light, however, since you want to keep the physcial compareson under the Duel personality section, then you must also compare the personality traits of both character during their possession. Possessed Saga was violant and crue, Possessed Shun was calm and serene and these are facts shown in manga. This should be added with the physical compareson inorder to FULLY provide all the FACTS from manga. Thank you for your times here, it's apprciated that you endure with me on this subject. Again, I understand it's been frustrating and you seem annoyed but I know and have seen of many good contributions you made on Saint Seiya sections so I believe that you can be a great Saint Seiya editor to work with if we can resolve the questionable area on this subject together.Yajaec 17:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I've said everything I had to say on this subject. Basically, Kurumada himself, by using the same transformation process and the same color change, created himself the ambiguity so the article will reflect it, whatever you might say. Unless, of course, if you provide source stating that both Saga and Shun didn't experienced and a change of hair color, and that their hair didn't became jet-black.

Rejecting an ambiguity that is wanted by the author is POV. As I said, if we followed your logic we should delete the mention of marin and Seika having the same physical datas, as "it might lead the reader into thinking they might in fact be the same person, while it was stated it was not the case".

Or it would be like deleting every mention of Seiya and Saori because there's always been this old question of "does Seiya loves Saori", and "it might lead the reader into thinking they love each other while it was not said".

See ? If you reject the Saga/Shun ambiguity, you have to reject all other ambiguities.

As for Saga's and Hades/Shun's personality, you're too much POV here. Saga as the Pope wasn't shown violent and cruel, except in the anime. Shun would be "serene and calm" (and it's still a POV) because he is far stronger than Ikki (and I can see how saying to Ikki that "it's his brother's body which feels the pain" or "I'm going to kill every living thing on earth" might not be "cruel"). Folken de Fanel 23:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, don't put your POV on me and what I said. All the stuff you said about Marin, Seika, Saori and Seiya is WHAT YOU SAID by drawing conclusion on partially what I have talked about over all (which my main talk is about Saga's article's neutrality).
 * Please stop saying nonsense. Obviously when you have no more to say, nobody can understand you. There's no POV here, there's only absolute truth. I repeat again:
 * Rejecting an ambiguity that is wanted by the author is POV. As I said, if we followed your logic we should delete the mention of marin and Seika having the same physical datas, as "it might lead the reader into thinking they might in fact be the same person, while it was stated it was not the case".


 * Or it would be like deleting every mention of Seiya and Saori because there's always been this old question of "does Seiya loves Saori", and "it might lead the reader into thinking they love each other while it was not said".
 * I you dare to say that "Kurumada never wanted to create a confusion between Seika and Marin" or that he "never wanted to suggest that seiya and Saori could love each other", then it would confirm you have never read Saint Seiya. So now stop argueing on this since it's true, and you'll only make yourself more ridiculous.Folken de Fanel


 * And why in the world you kept talking about asking me to provide source stating that both Saga and Shun didn't exp. the change of hair color? I've never disagree on that, I don't understand why you kept bring this statment up.
 * Because you've always disagreed on that, and you were always forcing me to delete it. So now if you have no problem with this, don't write here anymore, clase closed.Folken de Fanel


 * I did not reject the Saga/Shun hair color, I only said the fact that how you write those fact into certain section of article would raise questionable issue in regard to the neutrality of the article.
 * No. Once again, before saying what you say, you'll have to show proof that both Saga and Shun didn't experience the change of hair color. If yopu can't, then drop it. Shun's and Saga's transformation are similar and it's thus relevant to talk about them in Saga's tranformation section. Folken de Fanel


 * Stop accusing me of rejecting the facts which I've said over and over and over again and again over the past few weekssssss that I'm only concerned about how the article is writtened.
 * I'll stop accusing you when you'll stop doing what you're accused to do. Folken de Fanel
 * Just to humor you, evil Saga did shown violent and cruelity on both anime AND manga, in manga he wanted Ikki to cut Seiya's head off (if he wasn't cruel, he could just ask Ikki to kill Seiya with a hit as Seiya is already down). Evil Saga made statment of wanting to take over the world "out loud", Possessed Shun didn't made those statment "out loud" (these are facts, not POV to see the difference between them).
 * No. It's only your POV. Shun/Hades did say "out loud" that he wanted to take over the world. Folken de Fanel
 * As I've said over and over and over again and again, I'm not here to give you proof of the spirit identity between Saga and Shun, I only show you the concern I have in regard to the article's neutrality.
 * It's neutral~so no problem. Folken de Fanel
 * I don't understand why you keep fighting me on statements that I didn't made nor oppose to.Yajaec 23:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe if you realised it's you who are fighting me, you would understand. Folken de Fanel 17:15, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Seiyuu/ Voice Actors
For those of you contribued to the Seiyuu list, thank you very much, I just found the "Category:Saint Seiya voice actors" page today myself (currently requested to be populated), so I'm guessing a lot of people don't know about it yet. So here is how you can help expending the list...

When you found the seiyuu's page on this wiki site, usually(if the page existed) people would add the anime and character name to the list within body of the actual page. But most people don't pay attention to the "Category" section at the very bottom of the page. So while you're adding the character to the list, please remember to also add the category list(if it's not already on it, double check).

For example for Mr. Furuya, Toru, the seiyuu of Seiya, you would add this text to the category section while in the edit mode.

This would help expend the Category, thank you very much!Yajaec 20:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for Comment/Vote: Name translations
There are some issues regarding some character names like Esmeralda/Esmerarda (エスメラルダ). (Also other characters like Cassios/Casios, Casa/Kaysa...etc.)

Please go to the Saint Seiya Character Talk section to vote and voice your comments, thank you.22:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There's no issue, these false names are rejected : there are only typoes. Inaccuracies can't be used on Wikipedia. Folken de Fanel 17:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Bad math
"the 88 Saints, the core of Athena's "army", composed of : 12 Gold Saints, 24 Silver Saints, and 48 Bronze Saints." Where's the other 4? --68.161.155.83 01:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The 4 guys with iron-man made designed cloths, maybe. Theya re not related to Athena per se, but they help the bronze Knigths and the bronze Knigths protect Athena--ometzit&lt;col&gt; 03:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)


 * They have not been revealed in the story so far. User:Refuteku 17:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Those guys are waaaay old, like between the silver guys and the sanctuary saga, after the galactic tournament and the stuff with ikki. i remember that the clothes seems pretty futuristic and even one of them was a car or a plane something like that (it was when below saori house there was like a war room i hate that part of the story). wow that was a lot of flashbacks lol --ometzit&lt;col&gt; 16:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)