Talk:Saint Sophia Cathedral, Kyiv/Archive 1

principal cathedral of Kievan metropolitan?
The article currently says that St. Sofia "is ... the principal cathedral of Kievan metropolitan". Is that so? If it WAS the principal cathedral of Kievan metropolitan in some historic times, we should change the wording. I would need to research what its status is now, but if anyone can quickly tell off-hand, please confirm this info here or correct in the article. Metropolitan Volodymyr (Viktor Sabodan) is in Kiev Pechersk Lavra. The mother cathderal of "Patriarch Filaret's" church is St. Volodymyr's Cathedral. Thanks! -Irpen June 28, 2005 19:02 (UTC)
 * The name "cathedral" in proper sense kind of implies that it must have a bishop's cathedra in it. To my best knowledge, it was originally designed by Yaroslav as the seat of the metropolitan (who is also a bishop of Kyiv, of course). Lavra was always a monastery and it was not practical to have bishop's seat there: just too much disruption to the life of the monks.
 * Currently, UPTs's (Volodymyr's) cathedral is Uspensky sobor in Lavra. Filaret's cathedral is Volodymyrsky sobor. Autocephalous church holds its principal services in St. Andrew's church. Also, Filaret holds services sometimes in Mykhailivsky sobor, but I don't think it counts as his cathedral in proper sense. I suppose that Sophia is not in active use.
 * So, it may be safe to change in to "was".Sashazlv 28 June 2005 22:47 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, St. Sofia's was given for use to different churches lately. Maybe, there is some kind of rotation. I seem to remember the Filaret's church makes some claims for it but it does not look like it's going to get it any time soon. So, we should change this to the past tense, you're right. -Irpen June 28, 2005 22:57 (UTC)

Necropolis and Cloister
Can someone carry over some of the information from this site and also provide information on the monastaty that existed there?Kuban kazak 18:34, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't anyone competent read this page?
I have to say I am baffled by what has happened here, the article Saint Sophia Cathedral in Kiev contains blunt propaganda with phrases like "After the Mongolian Tatars pillaged Kiev in 1240 the cathedral fell into disrepair and was even occupied by the uniats" (as of course any russian knows the that a little russia chuch belongs to Ukrainian Greek Catholics is its ultimate downfall far greater then being plundered). I edited the article in the spirit of NPOV and added information about the sacking of the city and the Cathedral 1169 and the mecenate of Ukrainian Hetman Ivan Mazepa (two facts that are most likely delibaratley omitted by the troll who wrote the formentioned passage for propagandistic reasons as Vladimir-Suzdal is a sort of protorussia and Hetman Mazepa, a great sponsor of the Ukrainian  Orthodox Church is a national hero of Ukraine who tried to undo the consequences of the illfated Pereyaslav Rada), and fixed a typo. And then I find that ten minutes later my corrections were undone by some troll carrying a portrait of Stalin. --Tomaschuk 10:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * My advice to you is WP:FAITH in front of everything, then wrt WP:NPOV statements such as as Vladimir-Suzdal is a sort of protorussia, Hetman Mazepa...a great...national hero of Ukraine and illfated Pereyaslav Rada are hardly less NPOV than the article's past state. WRT your allegations against me, please WP:NPA, regards.--Kuban Cossack 14:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * this is however a discussion page and not an encyclopedic article. --Tomaschuk 17:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Rename

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Move to Saint Sophia Cathedral in Kiev, as that is an existing title. The title meets WP:PRECISION so is appropriate, and there is no consistency with disambiguating cathedral titles - some use a comma, some use brackets, some use "in Foo".  SilkTork  *YES! 10:12, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Saint Sophia& → Saint Sophia Cathedral (Kiev) —

1. "Saint Sophia" isn't a person, it means "Holy Wisdom". 2. It's not normal practice for Eastern Orthodox churches to the possessive in their name. It's Saint John Cathedral (Edmonton), not St. John's. Relisted. Fences &amp;  Windows  20:36, 1 July 2010 (UTC) 04:07, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. While I'm not knowledgeable enough regarding Eastern Orthodox churches to comment on the main part of the move, I would suggest retaining the comma in the title, rather than enmploying parenthesis. 84.92.117.93 (talk) 16:08, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. Normal practice for buildings is to disambiguate in parentheses unless the place is part of the name, which here it is not. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:57, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted. We're all agreed on getting rid of the apostrophe, but should it be: 1. "...Cathedral (Kiev)"; 2. "...Cathedral, Kiev"; or 3. "...Cathedral in Kiev"? The latter is the standard for other cathedrals by this name, and a common way of referring to it in sources). Fences  &amp;  Windows  20:36, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Would be happy to Support a move to Saint Sophia Cathedral, Kiev.  Skinsmoke (talk) 05:42, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong Rename to Saint-Sophia Cathedral (Kiev) as per UNESCO World Heritage Centre site. -- Garik 11 (talk) 09:38, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Rename to Saint Sophia Cathedral, Kiev only because if you check in Category:Cathedrals in Ukraine this appears to be the way these are disambiguated. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:14, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment and then to look at a page like Cathedral of Saint Paul and to see the nomenclature used there. Apostrophes and commas.  So it comes down to how is it generally referred, and do we have good guidance for nomenclature of buildings. billinghurst  sDrewth  03:35, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Look at Saint Sophia Cathedral - the top one comes here via a redirect (made by a move in Jan 1010). They all say "in X", it would consistent to move it back.  Ron h jones (Talk) 22:32, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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 * Added tag to http://kiev-assist.com/holy-sophia-cathedral

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Choice of infobox template
There is a discussion at Templates for discussion/Log/2018 November 8 about whether the template used in the infobox of this article should be deleted.

In my opinion the Geobox|Building template has produced a better result than the Infobox building. Toddy1 (talk) 09:29, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
 * As per Template:Geobox the use of the template for buildings has LONG been deprecated. There are a number of superfluous and extraneous bits of information that are crammed into the Geobox that have no significance for a building. Now I will 100% concede that Infobox building may not be the best template to replace geobox. Perhaps Infobox church would be better. I am more than happy to work with you to find the best infobox to replace it, but Geobox is on its way out. This is well documented. -- Zack mann  (Talk to me/What I been doing) 20:13, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
 * what are your latest thoughts? The way I see it there are 2 issues. There is whether or not to switch templates. Then there is making sure that when the template is switched it is done so with as little information loss as possible. I think we are in agreement on the first. I didn't do the best job retaining information when I switch templates. Would you be willing to work with me to find the best template to use here? I think Infobox church might work better. I don't want to get into an edit war so I'd like to discuss first. Would you be agreeable with moving forward with trying out Infobox church? I think we can get all the info in there. Let me know -- Zack mann  (Talk to me/What I been doing) 20:47, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Why don't you try filling in the infobox here, on the talk page. You could add it to the comparison table above, which would make it easy to see what has been missed.  This would facilitate discussion.


 * Regarding the choice of template - templates are a method of helping editors to provide good infoboxes - what matters is having good infoboxes. (Though it is also important that the code is understandable, and can be edited by other people in the future.)  Toddy1 (talk) 06:23, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
 * that was exactly my plan, to fill it in here and see what you think. Just wanted to get your take first. As for the second point, it is also important that the code is understandable, and can be edited by other people in the future. I could not agree more! That is one of the #1 reasons that Geobox is being deprecated. The code is such a disaster to maintain. It is late where I am so I'm out for tonight. Tomorrow I will start on building the template up here on the talk page. Thanks for working with me on this! -- Zack mann  (Talk to me/What I been doing) 06:52, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Current version

Infobox church

please take a look at the above and give me some feedback? Couple of things to note: If you could look this over and give your feedback that would be great! Please ping me in your response to make sure I see it. Looking forward to working on this with you! -- Zack mann  (Talk to me/What I been doing) 20:45, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I currently don't have the Government or Leader values listed in the new version because I'm not really sure what they represent. Who is leader here? Is (s)he the Archbishop? The Bishop? The Provost, Dean, etc. Leader is vaugue, lets figure out exactly who they are and then put that name under the proper parameter (see Infobox church
 * Same thing goes for Government. I don't think Government really applied here. That parameter is on Geobox from when it was used for settlements. I don't feel that this has any significance on a church.
 * I have removed the secondary length/width "with galleries". We don't need this in the infobox. IMHO it just makes it more confusing to read. If you feel strongly otherwise, I'm happy to work that info back in.
 * Landmarks was intentionally removed. This isn't information that belongs in the infobox (one of the many reasons Geobox is going away).
 * Lastly some of the dates have been removed. The way the dates are laid out in the Geobox is rather confusing anyway. Take a look at Infobox church. There are a number of supported dates in the infobox. Any other dates belong not in the infobox, but in the article itself. I'm not saying that the information is irrelevant to the article! Just that it doesn't belong in the infobox.