Talk:Salam Daher

Ironies
The ironic thing about the blogospheric bloviations on this guy is that he is very likely a Christian, and therefore not exactly a natural Hezbollah supporter... -- ChrisO 19:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You have completely rewritten the article without prior debate on the talk pages, which you appear to mistake for some public discussion forum to air your opinions Rune X2 21:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Just being bold. The previous article was quite simply awful, and in no way compliant with Biographies of living persons - some of the editors seemed to have forgotten that Wikipedia is not a soapbox. I think the current article is a big improvement. -- ChrisO 21:41, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The AP bio is controversal because he has at least three different claimed names. 124.168.3.10 07:46, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not quite. The "naming confusion" section of the article goes into some detail on this. His name is most probably Salam Daher, as he was identified under that name both before and after the strike (and crucially, before he was identified as "Green Helmet"), and he was photographed and named by AP. We don't know for sure that Abu Shadi Jradi is Daher, as we have nothing definitively linking them. In any case, it's not a given name; it's an honorary name of a type common among Arabs. If it's Daher's honorary name, it signifies nothing other than that he has a son called Shadi Dradi. As for the "Abdel Qader" name, I'm growing increasingly suspicious of the way the Al Jazeera piece has been interpreted. The entire non-Arab-speaking blogosphere seems to have relied on one person's summary of what it says (including the name) and I've not found any transcript of it. I'll see if I can find an Arab-speaking Wikipedian to look at the video. -- ChrisO 07:52, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

ZAPP
Chris, why did you remove the ZAPP segment? The video on YOUTube (which I also have here, because I happen to watch that show every week) speaks for itself and supports the text that he's playing Hisbollywood director. --Tilman 20:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I did have a look at it. I wasn't happy about including it, because (a) I've no idea whether it's a reliable source - YouTube certainly isn't, and I've never heard of ZAPP, nor is there a Wikipedia article on it (not even in de:, I notice); (b) I don't have enough German to be able to confirm that the translation is accurate - for all I know, the voiceover could be saying something else entirely; (c) it doesn't really add anything to the article that isn't already in the blogosphere commentary on this affair. But really (a) is the key problem, as far as I'm concerned. -- ChrisO 20:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It is a reliable source. NDR is state television station, ZAPP is a media magazine (watched mostly by journalists) and not infotainment, nor it is a "video blog" or similar, it's classic television. The chief of "Zapp" is the same guy who does the investigative reporting show "Panorama"  which was inspired by a BBC TV show with the same name. ZAPP has an article in the german wikipedia (where I made minor edits - I'm everywhere!) . I can also confirm that the text is a correct translation of the spoken word. I can confirm that what is on YOUTube is the actual show. (The video is also on the NDR server at ). Finally, while it's on the blogosphere, it is now missing in Wikipedia - IMO, this is the smoking gun that this guy isn't what he claims to be. But I'm afraid that now that AP & co made "nice" articles about him, they don't want to admit that they might have been wrong and ask the guy. --Tilman 20:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Btw, it wasn't me who uploaded the segment on YOUTube. --Tilman 20:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * a) YourTube is not the issue unless you suspect they manipulate with their material, and ZAPP is a program on the German television channel NDR, which is as reputable as they come.
 * b) Yes, but since you’re not the whole of Wikipedia, don’t you think a more correct approach would have been to wait for some German speaking guy to come by and verify it. I know enough German to be able to verify its content.
 * c) I think it adds a whole lot, since it provides live footage that can be taken as evidence of what is else merely just allegations. Rune X2 20:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * a) YouTube is little more than a video blog and our reliable sources policy is explicit in prohibiting the use of blogs as a source of information. Suspicion of manipulation isn't the issue - there's a blanket ban on relying on blogs. We can say that blogs have said something but we can't use them as a source. We can't use something that's been posted to YouTube as a primary source. However, since Tilman has confirmed that this was actually broadcast, we can reference the original broadcast.


 * b) Our "German speaking guy" (hi Tilman!) has come by and verified it, so I don't see a problem there. When I'm rewriting problem articles I always start off by using only sources that I can view and are verifiable and reliable - I've found, more than once, that editors have misrepresented a source as saying something that it doesn't actually say. I'll admit that's a very conservative approach but it helps to get the rewritten article off to a good start.


 * c) Some may take it as evidence of "what is else merely just allegations" but we can't draw this inference in the article, as it's purely speculative and would violate the prohibition on original research. The video does seem to show Daher displaying a body for the cameras. However, it's a vast leap of imagination to say that "because of this he must be a Hezbollah operative", as numerous bloggers have done. As I've pointed out above, his background story suggests that he's actually a Christian (I would guess a Maronite; Salam or Salim is a common name among that community, who make up much of the population of his home town). There's literally nothing to suggest a connection with Hezbollah other than his presence in an area where Hezbollah operates. And as we've seen from various pre-Qana reports, his status as a civil defence leader would give him a pretty good reason to be there. -- ChrisO 21:28, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Chris, YouTube did not originate the film, it merely stored it. It isn't a blog. Do you have ANY evidence that it's staged? Perhaps you're being a bit stubborn here. The film really does blow this guy away. Probably. I won't even bother.68.5.64.178 07:27, 15 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Regardless of the source of the video and where it was hosted or broadcast, it's a VIDEO. I don't think it's presently possible to fake this sort of video without considerable, Hollywood level, effort. ehudshapira 22:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Abu Shadi Jradi
One AP wire story has him named Abu Shadi Jradi. Rune X2 21:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Abu means "father of" - I believe this is an example of a kunya, an honorific name. Shadi is an Arabic male name, while Jradi is probably a family or clan name. It's quite common for Arabs to have (in effect) two names, their "real" name (like "Salam Daher") and an honorific name (like "Abu Shadi Jradi"). It's not clear that Salam Daher is in fact Abu Shadi Jdradi - this report of August 7 refers to "ambulance driver Shadi Jdradi" in Tyre. I would guess that "Abu Shadi Jdradi" is either the kunya of Salam Daher himself or is a colleague of Daher, perhaps a member of his rescue team. -- ChrisO 21:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Or "Abu Shadi Jradi" means "Green Helmet Guy" in arab? --Tilman 06:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Nice idea, but no! :-) -- ChrisO 07:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This text from 2006 Qana airstrike conspiracy theories seems to tie him to a third name:

''On the EU Referendum "Mr Green Helmet" was claimed to be "Abu Shadi Jradi"- a civil defense worker named in a number of AP reports as involved in the recovery attempts at Qana. This claim was made despite media reports of the incident identifying a man by the name of Naim Raqa, a civil defense worker in the nearby town of Jouaya, as having been at Qana in 1996. Naim Raqa had previously identified himself to journalist Nicholas Blanford, and journalists from the Guardian newspaper. He was quoted as saying:"'I was in Qana in '96.. Israel, when it is weakened, commits bigger massacres. We were told about this massacre -- I don't know what time it was. We couldn't move at night, even in ambulances, because of the shelling. They should allow us to move so we can work.'"''

Maybe someone else?  Tewfik Talk 07:04, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds like it. You can see Jouaya (or Jwayya) on this map, situated just northeast of Qana. According to Daher, he's been living in Tyre since 1996. Daher is definitely not the only rescue worker in southern Lebanon! -- ChrisO 07:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
What is with the random quotations of words? This type of behaviour is not wanted here. 124.168.3.10 06:44, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Move
This article should be moved to Green Helmet guy. This guy was 3 different claimed names by different media sources. Washington Post has named him "Abu Shadi Jradi." Associated Press has named him "Salam Daher." Al Jazeera has named him "Abdel Qader." Other places name him "Mr. Shadi" or "Abu Shadi." 124.168.3.10 07:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I've dealt with this now in the article under "Naming confusion". -- ChrisO 08:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Obviously no one believes this "Salam Daher" nonsense - there is not even an attempt to explain the pronunciation of "Salam Daher", "(Abu) Shadi Jradi", "Abdel Qader" - but bunches of redirects: Mr. Green Helmet, Green Helmet Guy, Green Helmet Man, Green Helmet,... --217.237.151.227 17:43, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * When you say "no one" you mean "carpet-chewing conspiracy theorists", don't you? Bloggers' speculations don't count as a reliable source, fortunately. -- ChrisO 18:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

ZAPP update (show from 16.8.2006)
In the show on 16.8.2006, ZAPP explained that many asked "where did you get this video footage?", and said that it was ordinary news footage that was already available around the world - only that they were the first to notice the "director" activities of "Green Helmet man". --Tilman 06:32, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In that case it's probably from Al Jazeera, since they had a crew on site. -- ChrisO 07:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Using the blog
The whole Green Helmet controversy was started by the blog, even ChrisO accepted this. Not mentioning the blog takes away everything. The beginning of the article specifically mention bloggers. ZAPP came much, much later.

You also deleted another sentence; this resulted that the next sentence meant something completely different. So I'll just revert everything again. --Tilman 18:00, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, we need to mention the blogs. WP:RS mostly excludes us from using blogs as primary sources for external facts. However, we are allowed to use them in certain limited circumstances. Where blogs have become part of the story, that is obviously a relevant fact that needs to be mentioned. For instance, it's highly relevant to the Monica Lewinsky scandal that the Drudge Report broke the story. In this case, the Salam Daher controversy was indeed started by a blog, and this fact was documented in several mainstream media sources. -- ChrisO 18:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Like I said in my edit comment, I had removed only the Hezbollah allegations (not the staging allegations), since they were based on some blogger's "gut instinct" (sic!). This is not my understanding of reliability. The only reason I will leave it in now (as well as the nickname, both in clarified form) is that the Gannon AP/Washington Post article (not Morley's blog entry) picks up the Hezbollah allegations as well as the Green Helmet. Also, I would like to inform you, Tilman, that you were/are in the process of violating WP:3RR. Thanks for your input. Kosmopolis 20:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Did you notice that I put "rv", then "2rv", then "3rv" in the comment? I know about 3RR and that someone else will have to revert if you delete again. But the current version seems to be ok. --Tilman 05:16, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Photo used by Lebanon President?
From what I can tell, the photo here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5369278.stm held up by the President of Lebanon looks like it might be this same guy. Does anyone have access to a higher resolution picture of the President, or the photo that he is holding?


 * It's the same guy - that was a widely distributed press agency photo. -- ChrisO 08:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Salem Daher discovered by AP or Stern?
I dont want to get involved in the discussion, just to get the chronology straight: The first media to clear Salem Daher's identity wasn't the "Associated Press" (the interview was published August 12, 2006) but the German magazine "Stern" that published an article based on an interview with Daher already on 10th of August 2006.