Talk:Sally Morgan (psychic)/Archive 1

Page title
I am concerned that the current name of the article, "Sally Morgan (psychic)" implies that she is a legitimate psychic, but there is no evidence to show that she is. I propose a move to something like "Sally Morgan (stage artist)". Mahahahaneapneap (talk) 21:37, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
 * There were no objections, so I have moved the page. Mahahahaneapneap (talk) 20:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

RTE Radio - media coverage
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/ (12/Sep/2011) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.85.177.194 (talk) 07:07, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Tony Youens reference
Proxima Centauri: Hello there. You made a few nice changes to this page. Wish you had done them in all one edit so that it is easier for editors to quickly see what has changed from the last time they looked at it, instead you made 4 edits so to see the differences it is more time consuming. Just a suggestion.

Thank you for the articles on Sally Morgan, but this one "Skeptic, Tony Youens claims that proper scientific protocols were not followed during television programmes. " is not proper to WP because it is from a blog, and even more important, who is Tony Youens? Thank you for giving me his blog so I can check it out, but we don't generally quote from blogs. Someone could write a blog that the moon is made of cheese and then quote it, so we can use them sometimes but not generally. Also the citation isn't done correctly, It shouldn't just show the URL but the date of article and last time it was accessed and where it came from. This one looks like it has some interesting quotes in it. I'm going to reinsert it and then cite it correctly. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/iain-hollingshead/8779222/Psychic-Sally-Morgan-once-a-confidante-to-Diana-Princess-of-Wales-is-accused-of-foul-play.-Are-we-surprised.html

Thanks for helping to improve this page. Sgerbic (talk) 00:51, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Response to Gary Schwartz edit
I reverted this edit today because we generally do not cite personal websites, especially when it is coming from Sally Morgan's own page. Sometimes it is possible to break this rule, but not in this case. When the media writes about Schwartz and Morgan then we can cite that. Until then it is just one of many things Morgan is saying on her webpage. Also you left in a lot about Schwartz when this WP page is about Morgan. Using the hyperlink to Schwartz Gary Schwartz is all that is needed, do not try to link by doing this... [|Gary E Schwartz].

I know editing WP can be confusing. I suggest you make small edits here and there, and really look at the edit page carefully to see how other people cite. Also click "preview" before you "save page" and look at your reference. If you are seeing any red print that means that you did something wrong, sometimes it is just a little thing like having too many spaces between words, but "preview" before you save.

"Sally claims to contact the dead, her personal website says that her abilities have been validated by [|Gary E Schwartz] from Harvard University . Gary E Schwartz studied for his PhD at Harvard University but is not an academic at Harvard. He is based at the University of Arizona, The VERITAS research program "

Welcome to Wikipedia Sgerbic (talk) 21:53, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Hayleysme edit
Hayleysme: Your edit to the page was reverted. Just wanted you to understand why so that you can help us improve this page in the future. Here is what you wrote... "Sally's gift evolved organically over the years and through word of mouth she soon had a thriving psychic practice that she used to run from my home. Since becoming a professional medium she has read for thousands of people who have experienced a personal tragedy and suffered a great loss. Over the years Sally has been linked to A-list celebrities and Royalty famously reading for the likes of Uma Therman, George Michael, Natalie Imbruglia and most notably the late princess Diana."

Wikipedia "works" because everything written HAS to be cited. If you can just go from personal stories then you will find people saying that the moon is made of cheese and that they visit it often before they have friends over for a party. What you have written is firstly that she has something called a "gift" not sure what that means? Is there some kind of proof of that? Popularity is not proof. Running a "psychic practice" from your home tells us what? Is there proof of this? I'm sure we can prove that she has read a thousand people who have suffered losses, but how does that improve the article? So she has been linked to these celebrities, what does that mean? Where is the citation to prove they are "A-list". And seriously where is the proof that she is getting messages from Lady Di? Other than she says she is doing so, Wikipedia needs evidence.

Really would love to hear back from you, Its possible that you have this evidence but just don't know how to properly cite it in the article. Please paste the links here, and one of us can add the evidence into the article once we look over the link. Personal blogs or just hear-say isn't evidence by the way. We don't need more edits about moon cheese, please help us improve Sally Morgan's Wikipedia page. Would love to see some positive links showing how she is finding missing persons and solving crimes. Having that ability would really be awesome and could really make the police's jobs a lot easier. Maybe even stop crimes before they happen. Sgerbic (talk) 05:19, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Removing uncited material
I'm removing this area as I marked it in October 2011 and no one has cited the material yet. I'm leaving it here if someone wants to go to the trouble of finding out if she did write these books. And been on these shows. Note the only remaining sentence in her "career" section leads to a dead link. That also needs to be cleaned up, otherwise the entire page is criticism of Sally Morgan. Can someone find some material positive or neutral so we can beef up her page, otherwise it should just be deleted. Sgerbic (talk) 01:03, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

In March 2010, she appeared on an episode of What Katie Did Next in which she investigated the home of British model Katie Price.

Sally has also filmed a biopic titled "The Psychic Life of Sally Morgan" which was shown on Sky's Bio Channel.

Sally Morgan has published two books, these were her autobiography 'My Psychic Life' published by Penguin in 2007 and 'Healing Spirits' which was published by Penguin in 2009. Her new book 'Life After Death' was released by Penguin on the 7th April 2011.

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved to Sally Morgan (psychic). It appears fairly well documented that this disambiguator does not confer Wikipedia's stamp of approval upon her alleged abilities. Favonian (talk) 20:16, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Sally Morgan (stage artist) → Psychic Sally – Relisted. Favonian (talk) 11:55, 3 February 2012 (UTC) – Common name and stage name.The name she releases books/dvds under eg Psychic Sally's ... RafikiSykes (talk) 14:25, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Not sure if this is where to discuss this change or not. I think that the current name with (stage artist) is really awful, sounds like she also is a juggler.  I'm okay with Psychic Sally as long as Sally Morgan works as a re-direct as well.  I'm also okay with Sally Morgan (psychic).  Sgerbic (talk) 03:47, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I strongly oppose "Sally Morgan (psychic)", because she isn't. Does she actually call herself "Psychic Sally", or is it just what the papers call her? Mahahahaneapneap (talk) 05:00, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I think the current name is pretty bad and somewhat misleading. If she is most commonly known as "Psychic Sally", and not at all by her real name, then I'd maybe consider "Psychic Sally", but I'm not sure we are allowed to use such titles. We usually use the real name and immediately mention the stage name.


 * I think "Sally Morgan (psychic)" is the most logical and descriptive. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:57, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Whether or not she is psychic isn't the issue here. She is known for that and only for that professionally.  This is the precedent on WP. I'm with Brangifer, Sally Morgan (psychic) Sgerbic (talk) 16:21, 4 February 2012 (UTC)


 * She bills herself on books and mostly on tour as "Sally Morgan" - "Psychic Sally" is just used for the TV shows. Whilst I can see the objection to "Sally Morgan (psychic)", the fact is that she is exactly as psychic as everyone else who uses that word to describe their profession. I came here via the disambig page, and it took me a moment to realise that (stage artist) was the one I was after, whereas I would have clicked on (psychic) instantly. Furthermore, on reflection I don't think using the word in the article title lends it any legitimacy, any more than Teller (magician) implies that magic is real and Teller wields its mystic power. Dr Marcus Hill (talk) 13:21, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't agree, because a magician doesn't (as far as I can tell) actually say that magic is real. Mozart321 (talk) 20:47, 8 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Now we are really starting to get silly. It does not matter if psychics are real or not.  The woman is known for being a psychic.  Not a stage artist (whatever that means).  The only reason why we are saying to add (psychic) after her name is because there are other Sally Morgans and the average reader of WP needs to know which one to click on.  What is the easiest way for people to find her?  How about Sally Morgan (who calls herself a psychic) or Sally Morgan (who claims she was Princess Diana's psychic) I know I sound silly here but this is where this conversation is leading.  She is Sally Morgan (psychic).  Sgerbic (talk) 06:40, 9 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I completely disagree. She's not known for being a psychic, because she isn't a psychic. If she called herself the best person in the world, we wouldn't call the page Sally Morgan (best person in the world). Mahahahaneapneap (talk) 11:18, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I still think "Sally Morgan (psychic)" is the most logical and descriptive. We have several other biographies using that terminology in the title since it's simple and logical. This one is really weird and vague. -- Brangifer (talk) 20:13, 11 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. It's logical and clean. A "psychic" is someone who claims psychic abilities (not someone who *has* psychic abilities) in modern terminology. - Jarry1250 [Deliberation needed] 21:57, 11 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I would disagree. Consider "Actual Psychic" vs "Fake Psychic". --Billpg (talk) 23:39, 11 February 2012 (UTC)


 * That doesn't make much sense, unless you're proposing an idea which believers would have, IOW that there are believers who have psychic abilities, as opposed to unbelievers who fake psychic abilities. It isn't what your ordinary person would ever think of. It's basically a believer's POV construction which unnecessarily complicates things. Just calling the person a "psychic" is NPOV wording that leaves it up to people to believe as they wish, with no one in doubt that the individual claimed to have psychic abilities (as delusional or deceptive as such claims may be.....;-) -- Brangifer (talk) 03:20, 12 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I was responding to the idea that a "psychic" can mean someone who only claims to have psychic abilities. I don't think people use the word in that sense, given that there's a clear distinction between an "actual psychic" and a "fake psychic". Believers would say that some people are actual psychics and others are just fake psychics. Non-believers would either say that there are no actual psychics or at least that actual psychcics have not yet been found. My point is that, in everyday use, people (both belivers and non-believers alike) understand the distinction. --Billpg (talk) 13:29, 12 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The Guardian: "[Sally Morgan is a...] celebrity psychic who claims to speak with the dead in sellout shows across the country". Wired: "Not surprisingly, high-profile TV psychics won't touch the offer [of a million dollars] with a ten-foot dowsing rod." ABC News: "20/20 recently profiled John Edward, a popular psychic with a hit television show... [In this issue,] Dr. Michael Shermer, Editor and Publisher of Skeptic magazine and a monthly columnist and contributing editor to Scientific American, answers viewers' questions about psychics and the paranormal below.".
 * As I say, whilst there is a tendency in some sources to put the word "psychic" is scare quotes, many, many sources uses "psychic" to mean "someone who claims abilities" rather than "someone with abilities". (And remember, scare quotes are discouraged on Wikipedia for good reason.) - Jarry1250 [Deliberation needed] 13:51, 12 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I think those are exceptions to the rule. --Billpg (talk) 00:58, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Whatever the case may be, when in doubt we use neutral wording, and the description "psychic" is as neutral as it gets. We have sources in the article that deal with the nonexistence of psychic abilities, and that's okay, but the title should be neutral. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:29, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay, let's take a more comprehensive look e.g. via a search for 'sally morgan psychic'. "She is certainly a very successful psychic..." (The Guardian), "Sally Morgan: Psychic superstar packs arenas" (the Daily Mail), "British psychic Sally Morgan..." (Australian Skeptics(!)), "TV psychic Sally Morgan..." (The Metro), "Sally Morgan, the psychic in question, ..." (The Telegraph), "Sally Morgan is a psychic to the stars" (The Independent), etc, etc...


 * I realise I included "psychic" in the search field but the result should at least indicate that when writing for a general audience the word "alleged" does not have to be prefixed to the word "psychic": it adds nothing to the concept. Thus, "psychic" is perfectly fine for the new title. - Jarry1250 [Deliberation needed] 15:23, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I think people need to realise that the only distinction between a "fake psychic" and an "actual psychic" is the same as that between a "fake chupacabra" and an "actual chupacabra". "Actual psychics", like "actual Loch Ness Monsters" and "actual deities", can be easily spotted by their nonexistence. Given that this is a BLP, and therefore its subject patently exists, describing her as a psychic is sufficient to imply "fake". Policy is clear that when adding descriptors to disambiguate subjects with identical names, the descriptor used should be as brief as possible whilst clearly indicating what the subject of the article is. "Stage artist" is not clear. If anyone can come up with a descriptor which is as unambiguous and simple as "psychic", go ahead and suggest it. Arguing against the use of the word because all psychics are frauds is unnecessary. Readers with two brain cells to rub together will realise she's as fake as all psychics, true believers will continue to be true believers even if the label were "fraud" (which would need to be proven in a court of law before being allowed in the title of a BLP), and anyone who isn't sure but decides to believe she's a "real" psychic because they read the word in the title of a WP article whose content would disabuse them of that notion is an idiot to whom we should not pander.Dr Marcus Hill (talk) 14:26, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * What He said Sgerbic (talk) 16:40, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Well said. Calling her a stage artist seems almost like OR to me, this is the only place I have ever seen her termed as that. I would also have no objection to "Sally Morgan (psychic)" or anything which makes more sense than the present page title.RafikiSykes (talk) 16:58, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lawsuit
"Psychic" Sally Morgan Sues Critics for £150,000 After Refusing $1 Million to Prove Her Powers

Brangifer (talk) 16:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks Brangifer. Found other articles from that link and really helps the article.  I hope someone will find some non-controversial articles about her to help expand the article.  I tried to keep it a bit balanced by stating her opinion.  Sgerbic (talk) 05:08, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

New Guardian articles
Another article from Simon Singh describing a new incident with Sally Morgan 'contacting' the 'spirit' of a fictional character having been fed false information. ← Randomnonsense    talk 23:43, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Also has a bit on Sally's people editing a recording to misrepresent the success of a reading. &larr; Randomnonsense    talk 23:59, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Here's another article in the Guardian calling on a private reading recorded and sent to Simon Singh, in which Sally is giving medical advice to the recipient of the reading. Is psychic Sally Morgan deluded but essentially harmless? --Skeptic sid (talk) 22:19, 3 September 2012 (UTC)