Talk:Salmon/Archive 2

Editors worthy of praise
While wikipedia is a community effort from time to time editors make outstanding efforts. As they become apparent their name is noted here. --meatclerk


 * User:Cacophony - for addition citations and helping to remove the Tag -- 18 November 2006

Current Work
Hi everyone, I working to re-write this article. My notes are being maintained on my website. You can read them if you like, but currently only I am listed as authorized contributor from didgood.com. However, if you use your own words, I won't have a problem.

In any case, fell free to look at the notes on my website. Below are links to articles and upcoming sections.


 * Start Here salmon
 * Salmon Canneries Historical
 * Salmon Cannery Towns
 * Farm-raised Color Added
 * The salmon we eat.
 * What salmon eat
 * Life History of Salmon
 * The history of Salmon extripated by human efforts. (Dams, pollutions, etc.)
 * Salmon introduction into non-native environments
 * Types of Salmon (Atlantic, Pacific, Landlocked, Steelhead)
 * Allies, Cohorts, Companions and other Anadromous water life.
 * Salmon's Food in the Wild
 * Hatcheies
 * Angling/Fishing & Sportsmanship
 * Historical Fishing methods
 * Farm-raised

--meatclerk 08:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC) I agree that the "color added" info should be added to the food section and that a rouche color scale many times means little when considering salmon purchased at a store.

In Review
Information of doubious value' I've pulled it out to review at a later time. Some was from previous version, some was posted anonymously.


 * Salmon Fishing Guides, A great resource for everything you want to know about Salmon
 * Free Salmon Recipes
 * One Hour Radio Broadcast on Farmed Salmon in British Columbia, Canada - Kootenay Co-op Radio's Deconstructing Dinner program

--meatclerk 08:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * In opening paragraph was:
 * The precise method salmon use to navigate has not been entirely established, though their keen sense of smell is certainly involved along with a complex system of visual cues.
 * removed uncited material, likely true 'along with a complex system of visual cues'


 * From the 'References' section
 * Clover, Charles. 2004. The End of the Line: How overfishing is changing the world and what we eat. Ebury Press, London. ISBN 0-09-189780-7
 * removed, as not directly related and place in wrong section


 * From 'External links' and 'Further reading'
 * Salmon and Sea Trout in Norway a Site with fotos and the book about the important salmon rivers in Norway
 * removed, as unreviewed and not referenced


 * From 'External links'
 * Wild Atlantic Salmon to run free from Irish driftnets.
 * removed, as unreviewed and not referenced


 * From 'Species'
 * Salmo trutta, is usually classified as a trout, despite being a closer relative of Atlantic Salmon than any of the Pacific species of salmon. See Brown trout.
 * removed, wrong species; is trout


 * From 'Species'
 * Steelhead or "Steelhead Trout" ("Oncorhynchus mykiss"), see Rainbow Trout. Steelhead are river-type salmon that inhabit most rivers containing chinook salmon, from California to Alaska, particularly prominent in the Columbia/Snake basin and larger rivers of British Columbia. Sometimes called "ocean-going Rainbow Trout."
 * removed, wrong species; is trout


 * Added section
 * ==Trivia==
 * The Norwegian municipalities Grane and Nordreisa have salmons in their coat-of-arms.
 * removed, use of salmon is too wide to consider all uses, but show note for possible list


 * Added 'External links'
 * Salmon: Spirit of the Land and Sea A web photo-documentary presented in English and Japanese
 * removed, website not primarily about salmon


 * Added to 'Life History'
 * http://www.waterfordcountymuseum.org/exhibit/web/WAIVersion/article/120/;jsessionid=EEEACBFEE9F66D2A9282357B922D1021?lang=en
 * Added without comment, remove without comment.


 * Added 'External links'
 * Salmon University Fishing Education
 * Commercial link


 * Added section
 * ==Trivia==
 * The Norwegian municipality of Kvalsund has three salmons in its coat-of-arms.
 * removed, use of salmon is too wide to consider all uses, but show note for possible list

Salmon Articles Inventory
I just noticed a few articles related to salmon. They are inventoried below.


 * Salmon (disambiguation)

Atlantic Pacific
 * Atlantic salmon
 * Cherry
 * Chinook Salmon
 * Chum salmon
 * Coho salmon
 * Pink salmon
 * Sockeye salmon

Not salmon
 * Australian salmon - Not true salmon
 * Danube Salmon or Huchen ? unsure as to status.
 * Steelhead ? unsure as to status.


 * Atlantic Salmon redirects to Salmon This article
 * Dog salmon redirects to Chum salmon
 * Humpback salmon - redirects to Pink salmon
 * King Salmon redirects to Chinook salmon
 * King Salmon redirects to Chinook Salmon
 * Kokanee redirects to Sockeye salmon
 * Salmon (zoology) redirects to Salmon This article
 * Silver salmon redirects to Coho salmon
 * Tyee salmon redirects to Chinook Salmon


 * List of fish common names Need to check common names

Disputed fact
The dispute is the mention that Canthaxanthin is being used in the farm-raised salmon. Sorry, I did not mention it on the talkpage, but prior to yourself no one was looking or asking about the tag.

The tag stem from the User:I%27ll_bring_the_food editing the article just to add a reference to Canthaxanthin. This comes from my marking the article Canthaxanthin as unreliable. I specifically wrote to him on this, but he refused to talk. The best information he could bring was that the in Hong Kong it was allowed, as well as in Great Britan, and possibly a rule change in the EU.

You can see his changes in the history log, and the final result [here].

He refused to cooperate and I called in the Cabal. At this point, I waiting there response to a rewrite I am working on. You can read the rewrite to [Canthaxanthin here].

At this point, I can confirm that Canthaxanthin is being used in the EU, but amount are limited. In the US the material is NOT allowed, per FDA ruling. In addition, to this I rewrote the entire Astaxanthin article, so I can speak with some authority on this. In my article you'll see that astaxanthin is the preferred colorant for salmon and the numbers to back it up.

As for Canthaxanthin, I have no numbers, frankly I'm not interested. It's expensive and the market for farm-raised salmon is heading for organic-farm-raised salmon. At best, canthaxanthin will be a footnote in history. meatclerk 05:12, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I substantially reworded the "salmon as food" section. I believe both sides of the canthaxanthin dispute will agree that the section is now more even-handed. Hence, I took the liberty of removing the "disputed" tag. Let me know if you think it needs more work. &mdash; Dave 14:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The rewording is suffient. Thank you. --meatclerk 18:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Not true salmon
I removed the entry for steelhead because I don't believe it is classified as a true salmon. I don't have my references nearby, which is frustrating. In any case, should someone object, please use my talkpage. -- meatclerk 04:35, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Steelhead or "Steelhead Trout" ("Oncorhynchus mykiss"), see Rainbow Trout. Steelhead are river-type salmon that inhabit most rivers containing chinook salmon, from California to Alaska, particularly prominent in the Columbia/Snake basin and larger rivers of British Columbia. Sometimes called "ocean-going Rainbow Trout."


 * What's a "true" salmon? Is it a fish that is popularly called salmon? Is it a big trout (and a small salmon being a trout)? Is it a trout that spends most of its adult life in the sea (anadromous)? Genetically, steelhead/rainbow trout are closer to other Pacific salmons in the genus Oncorhynchus than to other "trouts" in the genus Salmo and Salvelinus. But then, Atlantic Salmon is closer to Brown Trout than to other fish called salmon. Should rainbow/steelhead be considered a salmon? Well, that depends on what one means by "salmon". Anyway, they're all magnificient fish and superb eating. :-) Luigizanasi 05:07, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Why did you waste my time? -- meatclerk 07:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "True" salmon are simply any of the larger species in the subfamily Salmoninae. The smaller species are simply refered to as "trout," much like the way we refer to larger members of family Columbidae as "pigeons" and the smaller members as "doves."  How is that so difficult, unless you're playing semantics games?--Mr Fink 15:40, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What about Lake trout? It is one of the larger species in Salmoninae. I think it comes down to salmon being what people call salmon and trout are what people call trout. Generally, it seems that the larger anadromous Salmoninae are called salmon. But wht about the different land-locked salmons. Anyway, what I think and what I beleive seems prevalent is irrelevant. We need references for the definition and then we can decide whether steelheads should be in this article or not. Luigizanasi 18:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

As I stated in my posting, I am frustrated at this point. I bought two (2) to clear this exact point. My database says it should be by my bed. Of 12 books, none are them. So, I search the garage. My father had put Message and Papers of the Presidents in the book shelves backwards. Not just these, but over a hundred and there are boxes in the way.

Sorry, guys.. This *issing me off. I tried to look up on the offical State of California Fish and Game website, but no luck. NOAA, and DOI are no help either. Maybe Vancouver can help. It seems to be the best site place worldwide second only to Boneville. Anyone want to take a shot at it? -- meatclerk 05:01, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

The terms "salmon" and "trout" are trivial names and have absolutely no taxonomic valence. There is no such thing, in any rigorous sense, as a "true salmon". Saying that the steelhead is not a "true salmon" is like saying that a school bus is not a "true vehicle". Until the rainbow and its allies were moved (rightly) from the genus Salmo into the genus Oncorhynchus, all members of Oncorhychus were considered "true salmon", I suppose. That is, unless you were one of those who believed that only the members of the genus Salmo were "true salmon". Oh, but wait, the brown trout is a member of the genus Salmo so that can't be right, either. Hmmm... See what sort of mental shenanigans we have to get into when we talk about "true salmon"? What we need to do, I suppose, is to decide what this article will contain and give that definition up front. Right now, it looks to me like this article contains things that the majority of people call salmon. If that's how you want to define "true salmon", well then, go right ahead. From my perspective, salmon are members of the subfamily Salmoninae. But I realise that not everyone would agree with me. And this encyclopedia is not supposed to be about what I think, anyway. It should be about providing the information that the average person needs when he goes to a certain entry. One thing I will say, though, is that Atlantic salmon are different enough from Pacific salmon that I had a lot of trouble generalising the life history section the last time I rewrote it. Comparatively speaking, if we can lump Atlantic salmon and Pacific salmon in one article, including steelhead and its allies is trivial, if you'll pardon the pun. &mdash; Dave 14:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Recognizing the arguments that surround salmon and allies, trout and allies, all modern references that I can find do split trout and salmon into two camps - trout and salmon. Salmon gets Alantic salmon, the 5 Pacific (on the Americas) and 1 only in the east. Salmon, Their Fight for Survival (see Further reading for details) lists 5 on pg. 231. On page 4-5 he does list Stealhead "trout" as part of the family, but why there is a dispute and why it does not get regularly listed as a "salmon" I do not know. Consistently, "stealhead" gets listed seperately, but I do not know why. I had bought two references just for this, and of course as general references, but I do can not find them. If someone can find a better reference, than I have at hand - please come forward. --meatclerk 18:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Conclusion
I have found all my book references on this topic. Here are my findings.

On Steelhead (Salmo gairdneri), I have concluded it is not a true salmon. Here are my references:
 * 1) Salmon: An Angler's Guide
 * 2) Trout & Salmon: The Greatest Fly Fishing ....
 * 3) The Salmon Rivers of Scotland: In association with Justerini & Brooks
 * 4) The Salmon: Their Fight for Survival

Pacific Salmon are of the genus Onchorhynchus. All pacific salmon die after spawning. Alantic salmon and steelhead recover and are able to spawn again. Arguements continue wheter they (all species ) were originally ocean or freshwater - that is, pre-historic origins.[4] There are many anadromous species, including chad and eel, so this is no argument.[Personal list available] Salmon states plainly on pg. 86 "'The steelhead (salmo gairdneri) is not really a salmon at all, but an oceangoing strain of trout.'" additionally noting they are called "Atlantic salmon of the West"[1].

No. 2 and No. 3 say nothing about "steelhead".

If someone else has better or other references, I am open to read/looking at them. --meatclerk 05:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * chuckling* That's good work, there, Jesse... So, in your travels through those stellar references, did you come across a definition of "true salmon" that could be added to the article? See, it was never my intent to argue that steelhead are "true salmon". If you read my contribution, above, you'll see that my argument was that the term "true salmon" is impossible to define in a rigorous fashion. To be clear, I really don't care whether or not steelead are in this article. If they're not discussed here, they'll be discussed elsewhere; I'm confident of that. My argument was simply intended to convey that even talking about the term "true salmon" is an utter waste of time since the term has no rigorous definition. Get it? I find it interesting, though, that the unequivocal reference you claim is conclusive in this matter says that the steelhead is called the "Atlantic salmon of the West" and "is not... a salmon..." See, this is what I mean. When we try to state these things conclusively or categorically, we end up tripping all over ourselves. In any event, thanks for the bird dog effort you put into reading those stately tomes. &mdash; Dave 14:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * My efforts are to make the entry as encycolpedic as possible. My contortions with english are such that I must take all questions seriously, even if intended as a lighter point. As to the counter-pointing language, it is what it is. I often get the sense of tripping over words, to make a point, but it's not my point, nor is it one that I would write. Unfortunately, references are what they are. Poor in more case than I would perfer, but again, I don't write them. --meatclerk 20:13, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Amen to that, my friend. I hear you. Such is the nature of the beast. Anyway, again, thanks for your tireless dedication to the salmon article. &mdash; Dave 21:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea whether Steelhead count as salmon, but I'm certain this statement, "This section remains here to keep people from adding it in, and to reduce wear on this article." does not belong in an article. It belongs on a talk page, where the bickering and back-biting should stay. Why is the "Not true salmon" section in the article at all? I'll take it on faith and assume that your sources are absolutely correct. Shouldn't that mean that there should be no mention of Steelhead in the article, rather than having a section listed in the table of contents to state what is basically a petulant claim from someone whining on a talk page? If Steelhead are not salmon, perhaps that belongs in the Steelhead article, but it doesn't seem to belong here. Should we add a section explaining why kittens, also, aren't salmon? What about puppies? Do you have any sources that prove that puppies aren't salmon? I would find that to be extremely useful information for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.77.144.5 (talk) 13:29, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Canthaxanthin again

 * The following entry was removed because it is without reference and appears incorrect. In addition the statement is written in a confusing manner.
 * --meatclerk 22:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Today the concentration of carotenoids (mainly canthaxanthin and astaxanthin) exceeds 8 mg/kg of flesh and all fish producers try to reach a level that represents a value of 16 on the "Roche Color Card", a colour card used to show how pink the fish will appear at specific doses (Torrissen, 2000). This scale is specific for measuring the pink colour due to astaxanthin and is not for the orange hue obtained with canthaxanthin. The development of processing and storage operations, which can be detrimental on canthaxanthin flesh concentration, has led to an increased


 * oh no worry, it comes from: Opinion of the Scientific Committee on Animal Nutrition on the use of canthaxanthin in feedingstuffs for salmon and trout, laying hens, and other poultry. By the EUROPEAN COMMISSION - HEALTH & CONSUMER PROTECTION DIRECTORATE [link http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scan/out81_en.pdf]. Retrieved on 13th November 2006 the entire paragraph is based on information from there. If you click the little [1] at the end of the paragraph it will take you to the citation.--I&#39;ll bring the food 21:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I did find the section in the document. I thank you for you work on that topic. However, I did modify the section, as canthaxanthin is still not a major component. In addition, it is not allowed in the United States and I should have noted that, put it will have to wait. Should you see some issue in this please feel free to contact me. --meatclerk 05:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Conclusion
User:I'll bring the food points to citation directly - showing us how quality citations are done.

Top 10 Places for Salmon in California
Source: California Fishing, need copyright date, pg. 37, ISBN 1-56691-287-3
 * 1) Golden Gate/Duxbury Reef
 * 2) Monterey/Santa Cruz
 * 3) Sacramento River, Andersen
 * 4) Half Moon Bay/Pacifica
 * 5) Fort Bragg
 * 6) Klamath River
 * 7) American River
 * 8) Feather River
 * 9) Crescent River
 * 10) Sacramento River, Sacramento to Isleton


 * By its very nature this is against the neutral point of view guidelines of Wikipedia. "Top places" is not quantifiable and is the opinion of a magazine editor.  You could say "most popular" with cited sources instead.  Cacophony 05:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure. I don't have a problem with that. My idea in adding this is to highlight salmon and the fishing areas. From a chamber of commerce point of view, it is to add business, but is also the place people have choosen for whatever reasons. This later reason is why I would list it. Would you suggest any other changes?


 * BTW, California Fishing is a book. As for sources, I could just as easily get 'State of California'. meatclerk 07:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

ADD TO THIS!
The article needs to get a life cycle!
 * Isn't it already covered in the life history section?--Mr Fink 00:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The life cycle is mostly covered in the life history section, but it could use some help. I think a 'life cycle chart' would do the trick. However, chart cycles vary by authors between 5 and 9 phases.


 * Here are two links if someone wants to improve on that.
 * Life Cycle of Salmon... Done for kids.. but very looks good.
 * Salmon Species Description
 * Both are Alaska's DF&G. They are good references. --meatclerk 06:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

About my booknotes
I just wanted to let everyone know I have booknotes on-line, but they are in an unreadable format. I am finishing up a wiki-clone for personal use. I call it wikitype. By end of week all notes should be online in the new format, about 6 books worth, althought collectively still small.

Salmon in Native Myth & Culture
Sources:
 * Guns, Germs and Steel, by Jared Diamond, page 274 - "a cheifdom's large population in a small area required plenty of food, obtained by food production in most cases, by hunting-gathering in a few especially rich areas. For example, American Indians of the Pacific Northwest coast, such as the Kwakiutl, Nootka and Tlingit Indians, lived under Chiefs in villages without any agriculture or domestric animals, because the rivers and sea were so rich in salmon and halibut. The food surplusses generated by some people, relegated to the task of commoners, went to feed the chiefs, their families, beaurocrats, and crafts specialists, who variously made canoes, adzes, or spittoons or worked as bird catchers or tattooers."


 * kROEBER, 1925: Miwok People: salmon and totem animals, moieties.


 * Source temporarily forgot - Karkin had a 'salmon culture' due to almost abundant salmon there.

Goldenrowley 04:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok I see mythology is so rich with Salmon stories in Northern Pacific that I stopped counting. You could do a separate page just on salmon mythology (while this page seems more scientific)... if desired, not pressure. Goldenrowley 07:03, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't speak for others, but for me if a salmon myth exists and we can find the ajoining evidence, then the two can be linked. For instance, as I may have mentioned, salmon swim towards the ocean at night. Hence from their perspective, when the salmon returned in troves it was a gift from the (ocean) god(s). This salmon fact is in my notes somewhere. So, is the myth, but I don't have the citation for the myth. So as soon as you get me a citation, then I can write it. :-) --meatclerk 07:11, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Proposal: Make 'Salmon as Food' a separate article
I came to this page to get some info on salmon as a food. Most of the section dedicated to this talks about natural and artificial colorings. I was hoping for a complete article on salmon as a food with info such as: nutritional breakdown (fat, protein, cholesterol, vitamins?), different ways people prepare the fish, etc. It would be hard to cram all this into the current article, which I think should focus on the fish as an animal. --Karuna8 21:01, 17 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Note that Wikipedia is not a cookbook. Recipes can be found at Wikihow or Wikipedia's sister project Wikibooks. A discussion of how salmon is (and has been) prepared by different cultures would be a good addition to the article (or to Wikipedia if moved to a separate article) as long as it didn't develop into a cookbook. Anyone can add information to an article, and Wikipedia is dependent on many different editors adding information. If you have information to add, we do ask that you cite reliable sources for what you add. -- Donald Albury 20:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I am working on such an article. (Note above section Current Work)


 * Nutrition information can be extracted at: [USDA National Nutrient Database for Standard Reference]


 * Salmon varies as food depending on husbandry conditions. Wild and farm-raised vary widely in use and nutritional value. --meatclerk 22:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Genetics
I learned in a class that salmons are tetraploid. Should this be noted in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninjatacoshell (talk • contribs)
 * To the best of my knowledge, what you learned is abjectly false and your teacher should be roundly chastised. Ask your teacher for a reference. &mdash; Dave (Talk | contribs) 17:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

unless i'm mistaken, the info on polyploidy in salmonids should be here: Taylor, J.S., Braasch, I., Frickey, T., Meyer, A. & Van de Peer, Y. (2003). Genome duplication, a trait shared by 22,000 species of ray-finned fish. Genome Research 13: 382-390. also see: [www.le.ac.uk/biology/staff/cs152/BJLS2004.pdf], "Polyploidy in fishes: patterns and processes." hope someone here can make use of it, i'm more of a tetrapod guy! - Metanoid (talk, email) 04:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Stealhead
A Stealhead is a Salmonid species, hence Oncorhynchus mykiss! A rainbow trout and a stealhead are the same fish, one decides to go to the ocean to become a stealhead and the other stays in the rivers or lakes. Scientists do not know why some go to the ocean and some do not. To seperate it out of the Salmonid class would be incorrect.There are seven indigenous salmon and trout of the genus Oncorhynchus in Washington and Oregon, chinook, coho, chum, sockeye, and pink salmon, and steelhead and cutthroat trout. Read this paper: Pacific Salmon and Wildlife: Ecological Contexts, Relationships, and Implications for Management at   http://wdfw.wa.gov/hab/salmonwild/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.168.140.82 (talk) 22:23, 13 May 2007 (UTC).

Merging color salmon into salmon

 * Object There are too many different salmon colors. It would distract from the article on the fish.  The color article should be kept separate. Keraunos 06:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Quite - after seven months this has found no support so I have removed the merge tags. BlueValour (talk) 03:31, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Spawning
Could someone please create an article on spawning of Salmon? Warrior4321 23:19, 26 January 2008 (UTC) Salmon is very valuable to the First Nations —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.9.168 (talk) 06:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Salmon in aquaculture
I propose making "Salmon in aquaculture" a separate article, just as Tilapia has Tilapia in aquaculture. Salmon is the most significant fish in aquaculture (tilapia is third). Salmon needs it's own article on aquaculture so it can properly be coordinated with the other farmed fisheries, like Tilapia in aquaculture is at present (see the navigation panel on the right). --Geronimo20 (talk) 22:01, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Good idea on its face, but the aquaculture section as it stands in this article isn't worth moving over to its own article. But if you'll add to it, by all means go ahead. Carl.bunderson (talk) 03:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging
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Split proposal
This article should be split into two separate articles, one for the biological information about the species and the other for the food stuff. This would be following the same format as several articles including:


 * Fish and Seafood/fish (food)
 * Beef/Veal and Cattle
 * Chicken and Chicken (food)
 * Sheep/Goats and Lamb and mutton
 * Deer and venison

I believe this to be a logical move that would allow both articles to be addressed by their proper associated projects.

--Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 18:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Comments

 * This has been proposed before, but it is not consistent with the current style of Wikipedia. Certainly, it can be done, but it not really practical in practice.


 * meatclerk (talk) 05:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do not take this wrong as it is just an observation, but the four articles I listed above contradict your assertion. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 06:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * And where do salmon fisheries, commercial fishing, recreational fishing, and aquaculture fit in your scheme of things? --Geronimo20 (talk) 05:34, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Who are you addressing? Me or Jessemonroy650? --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 06:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh sorry. I was talking to you Jeremy. --Geronimo20 (talk) 06:58, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I consider that to be the appropriate content for this article as it deals with aquaculture and the biological information of the species, as found in the cattle/chicken/etc articles. The food data would be in the food article, also as in the beef/chicken (food)/etc articles. These articles provide an excellent template for the proposed Salmon (food) article. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 07:06, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, well that still leaves an issue with the fishery (/fishing/aquaculture) stuff, which is not just "biological". It seems to me that the senior project for the fish article is WikiProject Fishes and I have often wondered whether to raise the issue there and see if some guidelines or standardization can be agreed upon. Perhaps we could raise the issue there? --Geronimo20 (talk) 07:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

That would be fine with me. My major concern is obviously the food side. I would suggest using the FA article Sheep as the basis for the creation of guidelines for the animal. I think beef would be the best article for use of the creation for the food side guidelines.

The rule of thumb for the articles is that the side covered by agriculture/aquaculture deals with raising, including health and environmental issues with the species, capture (fishing/hunting), and slaughter of the animal. The food side deals with distribution and preparation of the meat. The lead of the Seafood article provides the best differentiation that I can find. I would also suggest using the currently small Category:Fish (food) to categorize any animal based seafood.

Regardless of how we were to do this, there would always be some overlap, as you cannot completely separate these related articles from each other. The section about the foodstuff would have a Main or a See also link in the section. --Jeremy ( Blah blah... ) 16:13, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Do we really need any formal decision about this? If there's a need for a dedicated article why not just move the food info in this article to salmon as food (which is a more manageable title). Dedicated food article or no, the main article would still need at least some information about how salmon is eaten.
 * Peter Isotalo 15:00, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I strongly urge that this NOT be done. Do NOT split the article.
 * Why? because someone needs to maintain it. If someone wants to split the article, then they are responsible for maintaining it. I do NOT plan on spliting the article, nor maintaining a split article. So, for those with this casual attitude that this is a "good idea", I caution you strongly not to do this. I can discuss this further, if you like. --meatclerk (talk) 03:50, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Maintaining all things salmon within the same article doesn't necessarily lead to better maintainence. The current information on salmon as food is almost entirely devoted to health and nutrition, and creating a sub-article for the food aspects could help bring in information on culinary aspects. If anything, splitting off the food-related info could result in closer scrutiny from WP:FOOD and could leave this article largely to WP:FISH and WP:FISHING.
 * Peter Isotalo 10:44, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Salmon hunting bears bringing Nitrogen nutrients into rainforests
I recently saw a documentary concerning this and thought of it as very interesting. The symbiotic relationship between bears bringing half eaten salmon to supply nutrients to forest trees. This bring up some important questions about conservation of old tress containing these nutrients. Replanting new trees wont contain the same nutrients until the cycle has passed for more hundreds of years.

Coastal rainforests: Unlocking the mysteries The Interconnections of Bears, Forests, and Salmon

Great Bear Rainforest

The Salmon Forest

Nitrogen specifically generates a high amount of natural growth. (see also Nitrogen cycle

Maybe someone would be interested in writing more about it on the main page? Regards //Nick 81.234.194.133 (talk) 11:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Trouts are baby salmons
There should be a clarification that many of the true trouts are immature salmons or salmons in their infant stage. When true trouts reach a certain length and different environmental condition their physical appearance changes too.
 * Uh, what? A trout is a trout, a salmon is a salmon. Although they are related, I do not believe it is accurate that a trout can turn into a salmon, and unless you can provide a relible source to the contrary, that should not be added to the article. Beeblbrox (talk) 19:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Rainbow trouts are juvenile Steelheads. You can go to the Oregon hatchery near Columbia River and they will show you the changes from a Rainbow trout to a Steelhead salmon. A Rainbow trout has variety of colors of the rainbow thus given the name Rainbow trout. When a Rainbow trout reaches a certain length they become completely silver thus given the name Steelhead. The Oregon hatchery run by the Oregon Fish and Wildlife department have pictures indicating this. Just like Silver trout are juvenile Sockeye salmon. Silver trout are landlocked Sockeye salmon that never reach adulthood because they are landlocked.

I have found other references on the web but cant seem to find it now that a Cutthroat trout are a form of salmon when matured and migrate to the ocean. The same source also stated that a Brook trout are juvenile salmon of another form.

I believe that many of the confusion or misunderstanding between a trout and a salmon is because the common people did not know they are the same fish because they look completely different and that infant salmon or trout are found in different bodies of water then an adult salmon thus two words exist for the same fish. However if genetic dna test is done certain trouts are salmon but in different stages of their lives.

Please also note that I am not saying all trouts will change to a salmon but some of the trouts will mature into a salmon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Infozestguy (talk • contribs) 08:24, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, adult trout don't become salmon (in the context you are talking about), just as adult chimps don't become apes. They already are --trout are part of the salmon family and chimps are part of the ape family.Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 08:31, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That's more or less what I was trying to say before my (now replaced) remarks were unilaterally removed from this conversation. I think the sources that have been cited show that trout and salmon are indeed closely related, but trout fry do not grow up to become salmon. There are a lot of naming problems with fish because people in different places sometimes have different names for the same fish. For example, in Alaska what is reffered to as Red snapper is actually rockfish. Beeblbrox (talk) 15:55, 27 August 2008 (UTC)